Dollhouse Forums

FOX (ended 2010)

Whedons worst series... some really terrible episodes... but wow at the lastest

  • Avatar of Aketh

    Aketh

    [1]May 1, 2009
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    I loved Buffy. I loved Angel even more. I loved Firefly even more. In my mind Whedon could do no wrong... then he did Dollhouse.

    Dollhouse has not lived up to any of Whedons other series. Heck even the weak Season 1 of Buffy was superior to what Dollhouse has done. I know it is an interesting concept and it hasn't been terrible but to be honest if it wasn't Whedon I would have tuned this out long ago.

    But wow, the lastest episode, Briar Rose, was amazing. They really turned things around. I hope the season finale continues this and I really hope if they get a second season this quality continues. There is still hope for me, Whedon is worth the time.

    But here is my question.. why did they bother with all the garbage episodes this season? Why not give their all. Knowing they might not get a second season why fill the first one with terrible filler like that backup dancer episode or worse the religious cult episode. Why? I mean Whedon had Firefly and it made the most of every episode. Every episode of Firefly was amazing. I can't even choose my favorite episode, they are all my favorites.

    I assume this is because of the Doll concept. Not having any real characters to connect with. People as multi dimensional as Mal or Jayne... I guess... but then if they did not have a plan to over come this.. why even start this project?

    Anyways, the most recent episode was more whedonesk and engaging then anything this season. I hope to see more of it.

    I went into this episode thinking I hate this show, its done, and nothing they could ever do could makeup for a terrible season, but I was surprised. I am still left wondering why they waited this long to have a real drama and continuing narative instead of the stand alone garbage episodes.

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    12Iceman

    [2]May 1, 2009
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    From what I read, Whedon wanted to do more interesting serialized episodes from the start, but FOX forced him to produce a bunch of standalone episodes. I really wish FOX would just let the creative people behind shows do their work without screwing with them. Their "improvements" almost always make things worse (examples include running Firefly out of order during its initial run and forcing more standalone Dollhouse episodes).
    Edited on 05/01/2009 8:43pm
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  • Avatar of Aketh

    Aketh

    [3]May 1, 2009
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    Sounds like something the idiots at fox would do
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    spikemaniac

    [4]May 2, 2009
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    FOX didn't force Joss. He took a step back, and changed it himself. FOX really didn't have anything to do with it.
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    buffyTVSrox

    [5]May 2, 2009
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    spikemaniac wrote:
    FOX didn't force Joss. He took a step back, and changed it himself. FOX really didn't have anything to do with it.


    Joss says that, but I think part of it is that he's just trying to not talk too badly about the network while he's still relying on them. I can believe they didn't expressly order him, but they probably "suggested" he make things more standalone (and in their eyes, that means more viewer-friendly), and it was probably the kind of a suggestion that wasn't really much of a suggestion at all. I think in fear of cancellation Joss scrambled to do everything the network wanted before they asked for it specifically. It just didn't quite work, did it?
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    NJZ

    [6]May 3, 2009
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    spikemaniac wrote:
    FOX didn't force Joss. He took a step back, and changed it himself. FOX really didn't have anything to do with it.


    He took a step back upon Fox's insistence. Basically, he did it for them (he said so in an interview that he wanted to keep the network happy) and didn't take into account that even his most loyal fans would think he sold out.
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  • Avatar of indasy

    indasy

    [7]May 3, 2009
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    Joss needs to learn not to work with Fox. They butchered the potential of this serials by not making it serialized from the start. Fans of Joss have always been more cult based than your typical mainstream mindless audience. I really think the show would improve drastically by moving the network to the CW.
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  • Avatar of sittolytic

    sittolytic

    [8]May 3, 2009
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    Dollhouse suffers from conflicting presentation... at its core, Dollhouse is a serial drama. It deserves to be serialized. Making it a procedural would mean retooling the mechanics of the show--but at the heart of the Dollhouse we are watching, there is a mythology to be developed and serialization could do such good things for the show. Instead, we have the odd mythology episode for every three or four garbage procedural standalone episodes. Just when we get a taste of where the show is moving, they pull away and give us some crap. It's this kind of inconsistent storytelling that I think keeps people from tuning back in. By the time they actually get anywhere in the story, audiences have given up.

    It's a shame, because the show has such potential. The dialogue was getting better, for one thing. The show really needs to learn how to balance serial and procedure--something that Fringe is doing quite well. I hope Dollhouse gets at least 13 new episodes next season to test the waters and get its act together.

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    TwistedConverse

    [9]May 3, 2009
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    I much prefer Dollhouse S1 over Buffy S1. I have yet to see a Dollhouse episode as bad as Teacher's Pet or Never Kill A Boy On The First Date or I Robot, You Jane and Man On The Street, Needs, Spy In The House Of Love and Briar Rose are all miles better than anything BS1 did except Prophecy Girl and maybe Angel.

    And this comes from the biggest Buffy fan ever .

    And yes, Joss, Eliza's contract with Fox is over in a few months I think, please God try and move it to a better network.
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    spikemaniac

    [10]May 3, 2009
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    TwistedConverse wrote:
    I much prefer Dollhouse S1 over Buffy S1. I have yet to see a Dollhouseepisode as bad as Teacher's Pet or Never Kill A Boy On The First Date or I Robot, You Jane and Man On The Street, Needs, Spy In The House Of Love and Briar Rose are all miles better than anything BS1 did except Prophecy Girl and maybe Angel.

    And this comes from the biggest Buffy fan ever .

    And yes, Joss, Eliza's contract with Fox is over in a few months I think, please God try and move it to a better network.

    Oh I agree. Dollhouse Season 1 so easily excels Buffy Season 1. Not Firefly though. Dollhouse hasn't quite crept up to Firefly yet, in my opinion.
    I also think a network move would be awesome.
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  • Avatar of aplourey

    aplourey

    [11]May 4, 2009
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    spikemaniac wrote:
    Oh I agree. Dollhouse Season 1 so easily excels Buffy Season 1. Not Firefly though. Dollhouse hasn't quite crept up to Firefly yet, in my opinion.

    I agree, but another season may tip it over that line.
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    michael_LB92

    [12]May 4, 2009
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    NJZ wrote:
    spikemaniac wrote:
    FOX didn't force Joss. He took a step back, and changed it himself. FOX really didn't have anything to do with it.


    He took a step back upon Fox's insistence. Basically, he did it for them (he said so in an interview that he wanted to keep the network happy) and didn't take into account that even his most loyal fans would think he sold out.


    That's standard for new television shows though. It's very uncommon for a network not to interfere with a new show at all. IMO, if people think that Dollhouse had a very average first five episodes then that's probably Joss' fault. We've seen his previous work, and his standalones can be awesome. If anyone is to blame for the first five episodes, it should be Joss. (IMO)
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    buffyTVSrox

    [13]May 4, 2009
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    michael_LB92 wrote:
    NJZ wrote:
    spikemaniac wrote:
    FOX didn't force Joss. He took a step back, and changed it himself. FOX really didn't have anything to do with it.


    He took a step back upon Fox's insistence. Basically, he did it for them (he said so in an interview that he wanted to keep the network happy) and didn't take into account that even his most loyal fans would think he sold out.


    That's standard for new television shows though. It's very uncommon for a network not to interfere with a new show at all. IMO, if people think that Dollhouse had a very average first five episodes then that's probably Joss' fault. We've seen his previous work, and his standalones can be awesome. If anyone is to blame for the first five episodes, it should be Joss. (IMO)


    Yes, Joss can do some really amazing standalones... when the show he's doing it for is established. To have a serialized show start out non-serialized because the network wants people to be able to miss the first few weeks and still understand it is insanity. FOX was way off asking Joss to do that. Imagine if ABC had asked LOST to do a non-serialized, standalone pilot where they didn't set up the show! No network has ever quite put pressure on a serialized show to start out as randomly as they "suggested" Dollhouse do. Each of Joss' previous shows started with a catalyst (even Firefly, though FOX aired the first episode last and made the second episode be the first episode).

    In Buffy it was Buffy moving to Sunnydale and all the new relationships forming, in Angel it was him moving to LA and meeting Doyle with the visions, and in Firefly it was them picking up Simon and River Tam and becoming even bigger fugitives.

    In Dollhouse, FOX said "we want viewers to understand this will be a disjointed standalone series from episode one!", Joss said, "But it's a serial drama... and I made this pilot already..." and FOX said "*Ahem* Well, we 'suggest' you fix that, or we won't get the ratings your show needs to not be canceled." and Joss said "Ok. *smiles and nods* I get you. Standalone randomness that sets up the show in no way shape or form and throws the viewers into a random engagement right away with no established characters or investment in the characters/series. Right. Whatever you want. Please don't cancel my show, again. *smiles again*". At least, that's the gist I've gotten.
    Edited on 05/04/2009 1:55am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of michael_LB92

    michael_LB92

    [14]May 4, 2009
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    buffyTVSrox wrote:
    In Dollhouse, FOX said "we want viewers to understand this will be a disjointed standalone series from episode one!", Joss said, "But it's a serial drama... and I made this pilot already..." and FOX said "*Ahem* Well, we 'suggest' you fix that, or we won't get the ratings your show needs to not be canceled." and Joss said "Ok. *smiles and nods* I get you. Standalone randomness that sets up the show in no way shape or form and throws the viewers into a random engagement right away with no established characters or investment in the characters/series. Right. Whatever you want. Please don't cancel my show, again. *smiles again*". At least, that's the gist I've gotten.


    Well, unfortunately, we'll all probably never know what happened between FOX and Joss. The way I see it though, FOX has done nothing wrong. I'm actually impressed they've kept it this long. Dollhouse is doing terribly.
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    lazyjay

    [15]May 4, 2009
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    I'm a recent (less than a year) Joss fanatic, so Dollhouse is the only show I've had to watch as it was broadcast and not from DVD. Honestly, If I had to watch Buffy 10 years ago week to week, at least at the beginning, I wouldn't have put in the time. But 8 episodes in a row at one time on DVD it was pretty awesome.

    Flash forward to Firefly - There aren't words to describe how great it was. Again, I came to it years too late, but even viewing 1 random episode on Hulu made me want to absorb the whole series in one sitting. It was that good. Somehow the show was able to distill its greatness into each episode even though BOX broke its serialized format.

    Again, flash forward to Dollhouse - It think both Joss and BOX were a little trepidatious going into a relationship for a new show (with given history) and were trying to appease each other a little bit. BOX with its decision to air things in order and Joss with his decision to proceduralize (is that a word?) the first few episodes. Well, 20/20 hindsight says Joss's was not the best decision, but who can say he wasn't trying to do his best for the show as a whole? I mean, come on! We've seen only 11 episodes and there's already a pretty rich mythology, lovable characters and a good platform to grow on. Sure, not every episode pushes the overall story ahead, but each one still allows us to revel in the awesome Dollhouse 'verse. And if we get another season I think (hope) we'll get more serial and fewer one shot episodes.

    I don't know where I was going with this but... recap: Don't hate Joss too much for screwing with the show and don't hate BOX too much (OK, felt weird saying that. Hate BOX all you want to) because they've given the show a shot in the first place.

    I'm done.
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    buffyTVSrox

    [16]May 4, 2009
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    michael_LB92 wrote:
    buffyTVSrox wrote:
    In Dollhouse, FOX said "we want viewers to understand this will be a disjointed standalone series from episode one!", Joss said, "But it's a serial drama... and I made this pilot already..." and FOX said "*Ahem* Well, we 'suggest' you fix that, or we won't get the ratings your show needs to not be canceled." and Joss said "Ok. *smiles and nods* I get you. Standalone randomness that sets up the show in no way shape or form and throws the viewers into a random engagement right away with no established characters or investment in the characters/series. Right. Whatever you want. Please don't cancel my show, again. *smiles again*". At least, that's the gist I've gotten.


    Well, unfortunately, we'll all probably never know what happened between FOX and Joss. The way I see it though, FOX has done nothing wrong. I'm actually impressed they've kept it this long. Dollhouse is doing terribly.


    I know you're being honest, but I feel like you're being mean about Dollhouse. You should put sad faces when talking negatively about Dollhouse to let us know it makes you sad. Like, "Dollhouse is doing terribly. "
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    michael_LB92

    [17]May 4, 2009
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    buffyTVSrox wrote:
    michael_LB92 wrote:
    buffyTVSrox wrote:
    In Dollhouse, FOX said "we want viewers to understand this will be a disjointed standalone series from episode one!", Joss said, "But it's a serial drama... and I made this pilot already..." and FOX said "*Ahem* Well, we 'suggest' you fix that, or we won't get the ratings your show needs to not be canceled." and Joss said "Ok. *smiles and nods* I get you. Standalone randomness that sets up the show in no way shape or form and throws the viewers into a random engagement right away with no established characters or investment in the characters/series. Right. Whatever you want. Please don't cancel my show, again. *smiles again*". At least, that's the gist I've gotten.


    Well, unfortunately, we'll all probably never know what happened between FOX and Joss. The way I see it though, FOX has done nothing wrong. I'm actually impressed they've kept it this long. Dollhouse is doing terribly.


    I know you're being honest, but I feel like you're being mean about Dollhouse. You should put sad faces when talking negatively about Dollhouse to let us know it makes you sad. Like, "Dollhouse is doing terribly. "


    lol, re-reading it after you said that, I see what you mean. I sound all pro-FOX. I'm really not, and I'm just as disappointed as everyone else in how badly the show is doing. I just don't agree/see the point in blaming FOX. Perhaps, on a different night, DH would do better. Perhaps, FOX did put more pressure on Joss than he will let us know. In both cases however, I don't think it's enough to put all the blame to FOX. Shows like Firefly, Tru Calling, Futurama all did well enough (in ratings, IMO) and suffered because of FOX's impatience and reckless airing dates/times/orders.

    Dollhouse had fair advertising (from what I've heard from some people, although I know others disagree - I really can't comment because I don't live in the US, but I'll make the point anyway) and has had substantial time to build an audience it's actually lost. Well, now I'm just repeating old points. But my general point is that, it's not as though FOX has done wonders for the show, but it's not as though they're completely screwing it over either.
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    buffyTVSrox

    [18]May 4, 2009
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    Fair enough.
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    NJZ

    [19]May 4, 2009
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    michael_LB92 wrote:
    NJZ wrote:
    spikemaniac wrote:
    FOX didn't force Joss. He took a step back, and changed it himself. FOX really didn't have anything to do with it.
    He took a step back upon Fox's insistence. Basically, he did it for them (he said so in an interview that he wanted to keep the network happy) and didn't take into account that even his most loyal fans would think he sold out.
    That's standard for new television shows though. It's very uncommon for a network not to interfere with a new show at all. IMO, if people think that Dollhouse had a very average first five episodes then that's probably Joss' fault. We've seen his previous work, and his standalones can be awesome. If anyone is to blame for the first five episodes, it should be Joss. (IMO)
    There's interference and then there's completely f*cking it up. FOX's "suggestion" as we're all calling it is what led Joss to redo the original pilot ("Echo", which was frickin' awesome btw) and make it into standalone crap. Then there's the other 4 episodes that aired after it. Sure some of them were good but compare "Echoes" to "Stage Fright" or "Man On The Street" to "True Believer" and you'll find they aren't even in the same league. See, its not that FOX explicitly said "we want the show more standalone" that bothers me. What bothers me is that that very suggestion means they didn't have a lot of faith (yes, pun, haha ) in Joss' creative abilities. They didn't think he had the ability to write a pilot script (again, I state that the original script was awesome) that could appeal to the average Joe and his longtime, loyal fans. And it was their suggestion that led Joss to thinking he HAD to change the show around. That he HAD to comprise the integrity of the show. Not for the sake of the fans, but for the sake of the network. And that bothers me to no end. What also bothers me is that he wanted Eliza so badly for this show (I get why, she did kind of co-create it) but he couldn't wait one frickin' year? Imagine this: create show in 2008/9 fall season and then fall over yourself in May 09 wondering if its going to get renewed OR wait a year til the 2009/10 fall season and pitch it to another network that will most likely renew it without a word. Hmm, which would you choose?
    Edited on 05/04/2009 8:41am
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    michael_LB92

    [20]May 4, 2009
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    NJZ wrote:
    michael_LB92 wrote:
    NJZ wrote:
    spikemaniac wrote:
    FOX didn't force Joss. He took a step back, and changed it himself. FOX really didn't have anything to do with it.
    He took a step back upon Fox's insistence. Basically, he did it for them (he said so in an interview that he wanted to keep the network happy) and didn't take into account that even his most loyal fans would think he sold out.
    That's standard for new television shows though. It's very uncommon for a network not to interfere with a new show at all. IMO, if people think that Dollhouse had a very average first five episodes then that's probably Joss' fault. We've seen his previous work, and his standalones can be awesome. If anyone is to blame for the first five episodes, it should be Joss. (IMO)
    There's interference and then there's completely f*cking it up. FOX's "suggestion" as we're all calling it is what led Joss to redo the original pilot ("Echo", which was frickin' awesome btw) and make it into standalone crap. Then there's the other 4 episodes that aired after it. Sure some of them were good but compare "Echoes" to "Stage Fright" or "Man On The Street" to "True Believer" and you'll find they aren't even in the same league. See, its not that FOX explicitly said "we want the show more standalone" that bothers me. What bothers me is that that very suggestion means they didn't have a lot of faith (yes, pun, haha ) in Joss' creative abilities. They didn't think he had the ability to write a pilot script (again, I state that the original script was awesome) that could appeal to the average Joe and his longtime, loyal fans. And it was their suggestion that led Joss to thinking he HAD to change the show around. That he HAD to comprise the integrity of the show. Not for the sake of the fans, but for the sake of the network. And that bothers me to no end. What also bothers me is that he wanted Eliza so badly for this show (I get why, she did kind of co-create it) but he couldn't wait one frickin' year? Imagine this: create show in 2008/9 fall season and then fall over yourself in May 09 wondering if its going to get renewed OR wait a year til the 2009/10 fall season and pitch it to another network that will most likely renew it without a word. Hmm, which would you choose?


    So. Much. Anger.

    Overloading, overloading.
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