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Frieza has a power level of 120,000,000

  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [81]Jan 19, 2006
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    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    Actually in the manga it shows Goku having the kaioken aura just prior to king kai saying that Goku is already using kaioken. This means that King kai was only refering it to that time and later. And he was only explaining it to Yamcha, Tien and Chioutzu since they aren't able to see Goku's aura. But do you really think that they were able to sense Goku's ki from that far away? I mean King Kai even had to tell them that the spirit bomb was a sucess. Plus it showed Goku with no aura whatsoever deflecting Frieza's attack. He also charged Frieza. Your kaioken "burst" theory is wrong because Goku charged Frieza meaning that he'd have to be able to hold it off for a couple of seconds. And since Vegeta wsn't able to do anything even CLOSE to that it shows that Goku would have to have used the kaioken x10 (going by your theory). And since he'd have to hold it off for a couple of seconds without a doubt he'd show a sign of panting. Yet he was absolutely calm and it looked as if it didn't require even an ounce of chi. Also your theory is a failure since such a thing was never stated...


    Wait a second, you say my theory is a failure because it was never stated? Yet, I don't see anything anywhere where your theory was proven correct.

    Anyway. As I stated in my previous post, Goku's Kaioken aura was only shown around the time that King Kai pointed it out since it was meant to be a surprise to the readers. Like I said, what would be the point in showing the Kaioken aura if it was intended to not be noticed? That's really not good proof for you to be using. Now if King Kai had said that Goku just began using the Kaioken x10 when he realized that he couldn't beat 50% Frieza normally, then it would be clear proof for you. Instead, he merely said that Goku "was already using the Kaioken x10". Stating such a thing obviously points to Goku using it since the beginning, or at least already before Frieza went to 50%-And since Goku would have been killed if not for the Kaioken, even before Frieza powered up, it would be most logical to say that Goku was using it the entire time.

    The Z fighters have been shown to sense power levels from far away, usually when those power levels suddenly increase substantially, like Frieza and Goku's powers did.

    Again, Goku not having the Kaioken aura while he was deflecting Frieza's blasts shows nothing since showing the aura would spoil the surprise that Goku was outmatched by Frieza.

    Yes, Goku was using the Kaioken x10 the whole time. Goku using the Kaioken in bursts isn't instantly wrong just because Goku had to have stayed in Kaioken for a few seconds at a time at certain points. At this stage of his development Goku was obviously able to stay in Kaioken for much longer periods of time than he used to. Remember how risky the Kaioken was back when Goku was fighting Nappa? Remember how reluctant Goku was to use it? That was only Kaioken x2. He was much more worried about using the Kaioken x3 against Vegeta, also. Yet, look at the scene where Goku uses Kaioken after fighting with Ginyu (in order to inflate his power to much higher than Ginyu's). He uses it without even the slightest bit of strain at all, and he stands (hovers) there for a while to give Ginyu a scare. While the Kaioken x2 isn't quite as much as the x10, that scene still shows how far Goku's mastery of the Kaioken has gone. If Goku could casually use the Kaioken x2 without even showing any signs of fatigue whatsoever while having a power of 90,000, then why wouldn't he be able to use the Kaioken x10 off and on during a fight when his power was around 300,000? I mean, even several seconds in between Kaioken uses would be enough time to keep your body from breaking down, and Goku's body obviously became a lot more durable after his training on his trip to Namek. And at that time, his power increased around 9x. What this shows is that with more power, one could handle the Kaioken better. Now, since Goku increased by about 4x from his zenkai after the whole Ginyu thing, he would be able to handle the Kaioken even better than he could while fighting Ginyu. At that point, he would be able to use the Kaioken x10 with much greater ease than you may think.

    While I'm usually the one who wants statements as proof (like in the Krillin vs. Tien debate), it's not always possible to find one that relates to certain debates. This is one of those debates. Neither side has any available statements that directly relate to the debate, but that doesn't meant the argument is instantly dead. Though no direct statements, there is more proof for my side. For example, the whole zenkai thing and how much of an increase it gives on average. A usual zenkai increases one by anywhere from a fraction of one's current power to 3-4x one's current power depending on how close to death one was and/or another couple factors, and it's been shown several times. It also seems that one receives a larger than normal zenkai if they use a Senzu bean. A zenkai of 33x is substantially higher than any previous zenkai by Goku, Vegeta, or Gohan (and in fact by FAR the largest one in Dragonball Z, with Vegeta's zenkai after fighting Recoome being the second), and is a pretty ridiculous belief. It just seems like a wacky excuse to place reasoning in the Daizenshuu's power levels.

    Also, you skipped the other parts of my post. Most specifically, the explanation of the scene where Goku stands on top of the ship and doubts his ability to defeat Frieza. Once more, why would he doubt being able to beat him if they were even close to even in power? Seeing as how Goku had the Kaioken to substantially increase his power, and his mastery over the technique was far and beyond what it used to be. Add onto that the fact that Goku never dreamed of Frieza having as much hidden power as he actually had, and you'll see that they couldn't have been anywhere close in power normally. Goku was shown to be able to sense exactly what Frieza's current power was at, and he even figured that Frieza was holding back. Yet, he grossly underestimated how much power Frieza had stashed away. Yet, he still thought that he might not be able to win, even before witnessing Frieza's 50% power. So please, if you can, make sense of that situation. I can't. Goku using just the Kaioken (x2) alone would give him plenty enough power to defeat Frieza if they were truly close to even, let alone the Kaioken x10 or x20. At Kaioken x20, he could have defeated Frieza with a couple of hits, or a single Kamehameha.
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  • Avatar of deckzone3000

    deckzone3000

    [82]Jan 19, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Also, you skipped the other parts of my post. Most specifically, the explanation of the scene where Goku stands on top of the ship and doubts his ability to defeat Frieza. Once more, why would he doubt being able to beat him if they were even close to even in power?
    Doesn't look to worried to me.
    Edited on 01/19/2006 8:22pm
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [83]Jan 20, 2006
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    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Also, you skipped the other parts of my post. Most specifically, the explanation of the scene where Goku stands on top of the ship and doubts his ability to defeat Frieza. Once more, why would he doubt being able to beat him if they were even close to even in power?
    Doesn't look to worried to me.


    Yeah I suppose the line "I've got to get serious. No time to be scared." means nothing. Or even the line "I'm not strong as you, but my strength is steadily getting greater!" right before it.
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    PrinceVegeta2

    [84]Jan 20, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Also, you skipped the other parts of my post. Most specifically, the explanation of the scene where Goku stands on top of the ship and doubts his ability to defeat Frieza. Once more, why would he doubt being able to beat him if they were even close to even in power?
    Doesn't look to worried to me.


    Yeah I suppose the line "I've got to get serious. No time to be scared." means nothing. Or even the line "I'm not strong as you, but my strength is steadily getting greater!" right before it.


    he realized that he had recieved a HUGE zenkai....
    And being consistant is something that isn't true in the DB universe. For example in the Frieza saga the SSJ power up increases ones strength by around 45x. Yet in te Buu saga that power up is for some reason reduced to 3-4 x increase.
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [85]Jan 21, 2006
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    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Also, you skipped the other parts of my post. Most specifically, the explanation of the scene where Goku stands on top of the ship and doubts his ability to defeat Frieza. Once more, why would he doubt being able to beat him if they were even close to even in power?
    Doesn't look to worried to me.


    Yeah I suppose the line "I've got to get serious. No time to be scared." means nothing. Or even the line "I'm not strong as you, but my strength is steadily getting greater!" right before it.


    he realized that he had recieved a HUGE zenkai....
    And being consistant is something that isn't true in the DB universe. For example in the Frieza saga the SSJ power up increases ones strength by around 45x. Yet in te Buu saga that power up is for some reason reduced to 3-4 x increase.


    What do you mean? How does him realizing that he got a big zenkai mean that he knows he's not as strong as Frieza?

    As for the SSj multiplier, it was made fairly clear about how much it increased Goku's power during the Frieza Saga, probably around 45-50x. I don't know if it's possible to prove if that decreased throughout the series, but if so, I have a theory about it. Possibly the first time one goes SSj (excluding maybe kid Trunks and Goten, since their first time was wack), it increases your power vastly. Then as your base power increases, the multiplier increases as well, but not quite as much as the base power. Meaning that over time, one's SSj increases becomes far less that it was at first. It possibly might have something to do with one achieving the further SSj forms as well.
    In any case, that's somewhat different than the zenkai aspect, as multiple things can effect both aspects differently. But for the zenkai, there were several examples where you knew what a fighter's PL was before, and what it was afterwards, thus giving you an easy comparison. For SSj, there are no actual official power levels by the time that state was first displayed, so nobody can really compare at all.

    Still, the fact remains that Goku said he wasn't as strong as Frieza, and that he was still having a little doubt about winning. That shows they couldn't be close to equal in power.
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  • Avatar of PrinceVegeta2

    PrinceVegeta2

    [86]Jan 21, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Also, you skipped the other parts of my post. Most specifically, the explanation of the scene where Goku stands on top of the ship and doubts his ability to defeat Frieza. Once more, why would he doubt being able to beat him if they were even close to even in power?
    Doesn't look to worried to me.


    Yeah I suppose the line "I've got to get serious. No time to be scared." means nothing. Or even the line "I'm not strong as you, but my strength is steadily getting greater!" right before it.


    he realized that he had recieved a HUGE zenkai....
    And being consistant is something that isn't true in the DB universe. For example in the Frieza saga the SSJ power up increases ones strength by around 45x. Yet in te Buu saga that power up is for some reason reduced to 3-4 x increase.


    What do you mean? How does him realizing that he got a big zenkai mean that he knows he's not as strong as Frieza?

    As for the SSj multiplier, it was made fairly clear about how much it increased Goku's power during the Frieza Saga, probably around 45-50x. I don't know if it's possible to prove if that decreased throughout the series, but if so, I have a theory about it. Possibly the first time one goes SSj (excluding maybe kid Trunks and Goten, since their first time was wack), it increases your power vastly. Then as your base power increases, the multiplier increases as well, but not quite as much as the base power. Meaning that over time, one's SSj increases becomes far less that it was at first. It possibly might have something to do with one achieving the further SSj forms as well.
    In any case, that's somewhat different than the zenkai aspect, as multiple things can effect both aspects differently. But for the zenkai, there were several examples where you knew what a fighter's PL was before, and what it was afterwards, thus giving you an easy comparison. For SSj, there are no actual official power levels by the time that state was first displayed, so nobody can really compare at all.

    Still, the fact remains that Goku said he wasn't as strong as Frieza, and that he was still having a little doubt about winning. That shows they couldn't be close to equal in power.


    your theory doesn't explain why SSJ Gotenks' power up was insufficient. His Base was stronger than Majin Vegeta. Yet his SSJ level was around SSJ3 Goku. Also not including Trunks and Goten means that your theory cannot be applied to all and therefore it doesn't really help your argument. And you don't understand the fact that EVERY time Goku used the kaioken an aura was shown. Even pages before king kai said that Goku was using the kaioken it started showing his aura. So king kai was obviuosly refering to that time. And prior to that Goku had no aura whatsoever.
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    dexter111344

    [87]Jan 21, 2006
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    I am afraid to comment.
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [88]Jan 21, 2006
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    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    your theory doesn't explain why SSJ Gotenks' power up was insufficient. His Base was stronger than Majin Vegeta. Yet his SSJ level was around SSJ3 Goku. Also not including Trunks and Goten means that your theory cannot be applied to all and therefore it doesn't really help your argument. And you don't understand the fact that EVERY time Goku used the kaioken an aura was shown. Even pages before king kai said that Goku was using the kaioken it started showing his aura. So king kai was obviuosly refering to that time. And prior to that Goku had no aura whatsoever.


    Hmmm, you think Gotenks' base was stronger than Majin Vegeta? Do you mean before or after the RoSaT? Before, his base certainly wasn't stronger than Majin Vegeta. After, there's really no way to tell if his base was that strong for sure, other than simple speculation, though it might be.

    The theory doesn't apply to Goten and Trunks only because the way they went SSj. They were a new generation and somehow had the ability to quickly and easily achieve SSj, regardless of the fact that they probably didn't have sufficient power to do so if you were to look at it in a logical standpoint. They barely had to get mad at all. As for Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks no Mirai, they all had to undergo plenty of pain and suffering, as well as reach a level of anger, hatred, and power that pushed them over the edge. Maybe the ones who had to work to get to the strength of SSj are the ones my theory applies to. Gotenks is a fusion, so they are probably excluded from the theory as well. Both Gotenks and Vegito instantly had the ability to go SSj at will, they didn't have to work for it either (excluding maybe Gotenks' SSj3).

    "EVERY time Goku used the kaioken an aura was shown"
    You say it like Goku used the Kaioken throughout the series, when in fact he didn't it use all that much. He used it a couple times while fighting Vegeta, once real fast to spook Ginyu, and then during his fight with Frieza. The obvious reason why you couldn't see an aura for most of the fight was because of a surprise factor. It would have been a surprise to readers who are reading through the manga for the first time to know that Goku was using the Kaioken the whole time, and was still not able to win. Also, the fact that neither Tien or Yamcha could see Goku using the Kaioken shows that Goku's power was so far ahead of the others, that maybe he was moving faster than anyone could keep track of. Did you ever think that maybe his speed was so great at that point that nobody could keep very good track of him, other than King Kai? Piccolo may have noticed, but he never said anything about it. Goku was using the Kaioken while attacking and moving, and stopped using it during the moments he and Frieza stood still, would be the obvious choice. It's not as if everyone would have been able to keep track of Goku's every move while using the Kaioken. Then later on King Kai revealed that Goku was actually already using the Kaioken x10, and even the readers could see his aura and his every move.

    Regardless, it's a rather simple concept to understand, and it's applied to many animes/mangas.
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    PrinceVegeta2

    [89]Jan 21, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:


    Hmmm, you think Gotenks' base was stronger than Majin Vegeta? Do you mean before or after the RoSaT? Before, his base certainly wasn't stronger than Majin Vegeta. After, there's really no way to tell if his base was that strong for sure, other than simple speculation, though it might be.


    Actually Gotenks pre (HBTC)is either on par with or stronger than Majin Vegeta in my opinion. It showed Base Gotenks returning from his fight with Buu damaged badly but still damaged less than Vegeta was when he fought Buu. I think that the significance of that scene in the manga was to show two things. One being that Gotenks wouldn't be able to defeat Buu with out going SSj, and the other point being that even with out going SSJ, Gotenks managed to survive the fight with Buu where as Vegeta didn't.

    Also consider this, Base Vegeta was stronger than Piccolo was while they were fighting Frieza. During the time they were training for the Androids we have to assume that they trained equally. However we also have to keep in mind that Vegeta went through vigorous training inside the gravity room and what not. So if anything he probably had a much more significant increase than that of Piccolo. During the fight with the Androids Piccolo proved to be superior to Android 20. Now at this time Vegeta was able to go SSJ, yet it is pretty reasonable to assume that his Base was stronger than Piccolo's. (based on what I just said) Now it is true that Goku had a heart virus at that time(so naturally his power was weaker than normal), however Tien said that he couldn't believe how much chi a Super Saiyan posseses. Now based on this it is pretty reasonable that even with his heart virus Goku was probably stronger than the time he had a little skirmish with Trunks. (since Tien sensed his power at that time as well) Now what exactly is my point? well I am trying to say that Piccolo (going by this logic)>>SSJ Goku (heart virus)>SSJ Goku (Trunks saga). [Since Piccolo proved his superiority to android 20 even after 20 stated that he's stronger than 19] Now remember how I proved base Vegeta>Piccolo? Well this would mean that Base Vegeta>>>SSJ Goku (Trunks saga). And furthermore this proves that the SSJ power up must not have been anywhere close to 50x at that time. It was probably around 2x at most.

    Also in the manga King kai saying Goku was already using kaioken didn't seem like a surprise. It seemed more like he was simply trying to inform Tien and everybody. And also remember how everyone (including Tien and yamcha) were amazed at how strong Goku was when he became SSJ? (while Goku was showing Trunks how easily he handled his sword) They said that they can't believe how powerful a SSJ is. This means that Tien, Yamcha and Chioutzu probably couldn't sense Goku's power while fighting Frieza. Otherwise it wouldn't have been that surprising.
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    OneTruePhoenix

    [90]Jan 22, 2006
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    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    Actually Gotenks pre (HBTC)is either on par with or stronger than Majin Vegeta in my opinion. It showed Base Gotenks returning from his fight with Buu damaged badly but still damaged less than Vegeta was when he fought Buu. I think that the significance of that scene in the manga was to show two things. One being that Gotenks wouldn't be able to defeat Buu with out going SSj, and the other point being that even with out going SSJ, Gotenks managed to survive the fight with Buu where as Vegeta didn't.


    Well let's see here. Vegeta was fighting Fat Buu, as we all know. Yet, Vegeta appeared like he was winning for a while, he even mocked Buu some. This was because Fat Buu plays around and acts like a little kid, he was having fun more than being serious. Once he started to be a little more serious he started whooping Vegeta. Vegeta then quickly realized that he was no match for Buu, so he destroyed himself in attempt to take Buu with him, failing. Vegeta didn't run from the fight, he decided to stay and try to sacrifice himself to stop Buu from destroying the Earth. Gotenks, however, obviously ran away when the fight turned ugly. As we didn't see what happened, we can only assume that Gotenks was owned by Buu, taking from the way it was presented. If it was really any sort of worthwile fight it would have shown it. Instead, it simply showed Gotenks coming back with his tail between his legs. By the overall presentation of that scene and the fact that Piccolo was pretty much thinking "I told you so..." we can tell that Gotenks stood not even the slightest chance at all. Buu probably didn't even get serious at all, considering the only time he did was against a stronger foe (SSj3 Goku). Thus, Gotenks' base (pre-RoSaT) couldn't have been as strong as Majin Vegeta. IMO, Gotenks' base was nowhere near Vegeta in power before the Room.

    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    Also consider this, Base Vegeta was stronger than Piccolo was while they were fighting Frieza. During the time they were training for the Androids we have to assume that they trained equally. However we also have to keep in mind that Vegeta went through vigorous training inside the gravity room and what not. So if anything he probably had a much more significant increase than that of Piccolo. During the fight with the Androids Piccolo proved to be superior to Android 20. Now at this time Vegeta was able to go SSJ, yet it is pretty reasonable to assume that his Base was stronger than Piccolo's. (based on what I just said) Now it is true that Goku had a heart virus at that time(so naturally his power was weaker than normal), however Tien said that he couldn't believe how much chi a Super Saiyan posseses. Now based on this it is pretty reasonable that even with his heart virus Goku was probably stronger than the time he had a little skirmish with Trunks. (since Tien sensed his power at that time as well) Now what exactly is my point? well I am trying to say that Piccolo (going by this logic)>>SSJ Goku (heart virus)>SSJ Goku (Trunks saga). [Since Piccolo proved his superiority to android 20 even after 20 stated that he's stronger than 19] Now remember how I proved base Vegeta>Piccolo? Well this would mean that Base Vegeta>>>SSJ Goku (Trunks saga). And furthermore this proves that the SSJ power up must not have been anywhere close to 50x at that time. It was probably around 2x at most.


    Thing is, Gero was a lot weaker than Android 19. SSj Goku, even with the Heart Virus, was FAR ahead of Piccolo, and SSj Vegeta was either equal to, or above SSj Goku IMO. So, there's not really any basis for the SSj power-up being only 2x.

    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    Also in the manga King kai saying Goku was already using kaioken didn't seem like a surprise. It seemed more like he was simply trying to inform Tien and everybody. And also remember how everyone (including Tien and yamcha) were amazed at how strong Goku was when he became SSJ? (while Goku was showing Trunks how easily he handled his sword) They said that they can't believe how powerful a SSJ is. This means that Tien, Yamcha and Chioutzu probably couldn't sense Goku's power while fighting Frieza. Otherwise it wouldn't have been that surprising.


    Well, seeing as how King Kai had a grim look on his face shows that he wasn't surprised, but it also showed that Goku had no hope of winning in his current state. This was after King Kai had hopes for Goku since they were fighting equal beforehand, and Goku still had another ten levels of Kaioken to go to. Obviously the mood went from hopeful and happy to grim and hopeless. And the fact that Tien and Yamcha were surprised when King Kai broke the news to them shows that it was in fact a surprising moment. They thought that Goku was fighting Frieza without the Kaioken, when in fact he was using it already.
    Of course it wouldn't have been as surprising if they could have sensed him fully, but they couldn't and it was. They became worried after the news, just like King Kai was.
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    PrinceVegeta2

    [91]Jan 24, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:

    Well let's see here. Vegeta was fighting Fat Buu, as we all know. Yet, Vegeta appeared like he was winning for a while, he even mocked Buu some. This was because Fat Buu plays around and acts like a little kid, he was having fun more than being serious. Once he started to be a little more serious he started whooping Vegeta. Vegeta then quickly realized that he was no match for Buu, so he destroyed himself in attempt to take Buu with him, failing. Vegeta didn't run from the fight, he decided to stay and try to sacrifice himself to stop Buu from destroying the Earth. Gotenks, however, obviously ran away when the fight turned ugly. As we didn't see what happened, we can only assume that Gotenks was owned by Buu, taking from the way it was presented. If it was really any sort of worthwile fight it would have shown it. Instead, it simply showed Gotenks coming back with his tail between his legs. By the overall presentation of that scene and the fact that Piccolo was pretty much thinking "I told you so..." we can tell that Gotenks stood not even the slightest chance at all. Buu probably didn't even get serious at all, considering the only time he did was against a stronger foe (SSj3 Goku). Thus, Gotenks' base (pre-RoSaT) couldn't have been as strong as Majin Vegeta. IMO, Gotenks' base was nowhere near Vegeta in power before the Room.


    IMO the significance of that fight was to show that Gotenks managed to survive the fight even though he wasn't a Super Saiyan. It was IMO foreshadowing the elevated strength upon going Super Saiyan. Also Vegeta never really stould a chance against Buu. After Buu slightly powered up Vegeta was pretty much done for.
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:

    Thing is, Gero was a lot weaker than Android 19. SSj Goku, even with the Heart Virus, was FAR ahead of Piccolo, and SSj Vegeta was either equal to, or above SSj Goku IMO. So, there's not really any basis for the SSj power-up being only 2x.


    Actually Dr. Gero stated that he wsa superior to 19 even after 19's power boost. And it's pretty obvious after 19 absorbed Vegeta's power Vegeta killed him in a blast yet it was stated that against Gero, had the dr. stould his ground he would have wiped the floor with Vegeta. (Since Vegeta was weakened0 But either way it was directly stated that Gero>>19

    OneTruePhoenix wrote:

    Well, seeing as how King Kai had a grim look on his face shows that he wasn't surprised, but it also showed that Goku had no hope of winning in his current state. This was after King Kai had hopes for Goku since they were fighting equal beforehand, and Goku still had another ten levels of Kaioken to go to. Obviously the mood went from hopeful and happy to grim and hopeless. And the fact that Tien and Yamcha were surprised when King Kai broke the news to them shows that it was in fact a surprising moment. They thought that Goku was fighting Frieza without the Kaioken, when in fact he was using it already.
    Of course it wouldn't have been as surprising if they could have sensed him fully, but they couldn't and it was. They became worried after the news, just like King Kai was.


    ACtually King kai thought Goku wpul;d lose because AFTER Goku started using the kaioken (which by the way was after Frieza powered up to half power) King kai realized that Frieza's power boost was too great for even Goku's kaioken to match it.
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    OneTruePhoenix

    [92]Jan 24, 2006
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    PrinceVegeta wrote:
    IMO the significance of that fight was to show that Gotenks managed to survive the fight even though he wasn't a Super Saiyan. It was IMO foreshadowing the elevated strength upon going Super Saiyan. Also Vegeta never really stould a chance against Buu. After Buu slightly powered up Vegeta was pretty much done for.


    That couldn't be it. If that was the case, then Piccolo or somebody would have been surprised or said something like "He survived even though he wasn't a Super Saiyan?!" Yet, Piccolo pretty much looked like he was thinking "I told you so..." Also, Gotenks survived simply because he ran away, instead of staying and fighting like Vegeta did. Nothing more than that. Fat Buu wasn't the type of person (er, creature) to relentlessly chase his opponent if they tried to run. He's simple minded and probably just had fun beating Gotenks up. Why would he care if he ran?
    I know Vegeta didn't stand a chance against Buu. The fact still remains that Vegeta put up a good fight for a while until Buu became more serious. However, it didn't even show Gotenks fight Buu, so obviously it was nothing spectacular. Never again was it mentioned later in the series, so it must have been nothing worth watching. Surviving a fight by running away shows nothing positive about one's strength anwyay.

    PrinceVegeta wrote:
    Actually Dr. Gero stated that he wsa superior to 19 even after 19's power boost. And it's pretty obvious after 19 absorbed Vegeta's power Vegeta killed him in a blast yet it was stated that against Gero, had the dr. stould his ground he would have wiped the floor with Vegeta. (Since Vegeta was weakened0 But either way it was directly stated that Gero>>19


    I never saw any such statement. You're going to have to show it. Regardless, if he did say it, that doesn't mean it's true. Considering all the evidence against it. For one, look at Gero's expression when Goku was beating the crap out of #19 (at first). He looked awfully worried. He also had the same look when Vegeta whooped #19. And why would Gero even run away in the first place if he was stronger than #19? He even knew that a LOT of Vegeta's energy was stolen. Piccolo did say that Vegeta would have lost had he fought Gero at that time, but what proof does that provide for you when it was even stated that Vegeta would have lost only because so much energy was stolen from him? Another thing that shows how weak Gero was was how much of a wimp he looked like against Piccolo. First was when everyone tried to flee but Gero stopped them and blasted Piccolo. Piccolo stood up and said that such an attack wouldn't be able to hurt him, and he only made it look like he lost in order to turn Gero's attention. Then a little later Piccolo fought Gero. Gero didn't even stand the slightest bit of a chance against him, even after adding some of Piccolo's energy, as well as the energy from Vegeta's ki attack, to his own.

    PrinceVegeta wrote:
    ACtually King kai thought Goku wpul;d lose because AFTER Goku started using the kaioken (which by the way was after Frieza powered up to half power) King kai realized that Frieza's power boost was too great for even Goku's kaioken to match it.


    ...King Kai thought Goku was going to lose because even HE miscalculated how much power Frieza had. Goku used the Kaioken the entire time pretty much, and you should have realized that by now.

    Another thing that pretty much shows that the idea that Goku and Frieza were in the hundred millions is ridiculous was the fact that that's simply WAYYYY too high for them to have been all of a sudden. Do you realize what that means? It means that everyone else somehow caught up to Goku after that. It's so ridiculous. I mean, how could Vegeta have caught up to, and possibly surpassed Goku's strength (when he became a SSj in the Android Saga)? Vegeta was either equal to, or slightly above Goku. Vegeta trained during the Android Saga, but so did Goku. Granted, Vegeta may have trained harder, but no possible training (other than the RoSaT) that Vegeta could have done during those three years could have possibly made Vegeta close such an extremely large gap in such a short amount of time. I don't care what's said about it, that's absurd right there. Going from less than a million or so to above 150,000,000 in three short years is far away from logic. Especially since Goku became stronger on Yardrat (and any possible zenkai he would have got) AND trained for the Androids. I don't see that happening, not at all.
    The Daizenshuu is wrong on a few occasions, this is obviously one of them.
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    deckzone3000

    [93]Jan 24, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Regardless, if he did say it, that doesn't mean it's true. Considering all the evidence against it.
    LOL *points at hypocrite*
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    OneTruePhoenix

    [94]Jan 25, 2006
    • member since: 05/18/05
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    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Regardless, if he did say it, that doesn't mean it's true. Considering all the evidence against it.
    LOL *points at hypocrite*


    You're going to have to explain that one.
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    deckzone3000

    [95]Jan 25, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Regardless, if he did say it, that doesn't mean it's true. Considering all the evidence against it.
    LOL *points at hypocrite*


    You're going to have to explain that one.
    Yamcha at the world tournament ring a bell?
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    PrinceVegeta2

    [96]Jan 25, 2006
    • member since: 06/22/05
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    The statement was made as follows.

    "I see we have miscalulated your powers. Fortunately we're up to it. Even 19 here can handle you, and so of course can I."

    The dranet.com scans have this page HORRIBLY translated. And what I quoted is from the Viz version itself. And Deckzone is right, you are being hypocritical. I mean by your logic (as portrayed in this topic) yamcha might not have been right about Krillin being the mightiest human. Yet you consider Krillin stronger than EVERY human a given in the other topic. Besides this I have unlimited evidence that Gero>>>19.
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    OneTruePhoenix

    [97]Jan 27, 2006
    • member since: 05/18/05
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    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Yamcha at the world tournament ring a bell?


    Ohh so that's what you meant, haha. Well let's see here, Yamcha's quote was never contradicted, proven wrong, or even has any valuable evidence against it. Thus, it can be used a fact same as Frieza's statement about being over a million.

    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    The statement was made as follows.

    "I see we have miscalulated your powers. Fortunately we're up to it. Even 19 here can handle you, and so of course can I."

    The dranet.com scans have this page HORRIBLY translated. And what I quoted is from the Viz version itself. And Deckzone is right, you are being hypocritical. I mean by your logic (as portrayed in this topic) yamcha might not have been right about Krillin being the mightiest human. Yet you consider Krillin stronger than EVERY human a given in the other topic. Besides this I have unlimited evidence that Gero>>>19.


    Gero was proven to be weaker than #19 the very moment Piccolo crushed him. Or are you actually going to try to say that Piccolo was close to SSj Goku/SSj Vegeta in power? If you proceed with that claim, then I believe this discussion is already over with
    Funny, I just stumbled across this scene the other day. It's undeniable evidence that Goku and Frieza were NOT equal. Odd that I never actually noticed it before:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/bacon967/dbz%20manga/goku11.jpg
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/bacon967/dbz%20manga/goku12.jpg

    And that's from the official Viz manga, not that it would matter since no dialogue is involved So there you have it. This is the first we actually "see" the Kaioken aura, and it's way before Frieza went to 50%. Goku was still getting smacked down, while Frieza wasn't even using his hands. You say that Goku couldn't have been using the Kaioken the entire time, but how else could he have kept up if he didn't? It's clearly shown here that even when Goku was using the Kaioken he was no higher than Frieza. Even if this was only the Kaioken x2 (normal), then he should still be able to crush Frieza if they were truly equal in base form. Yet, Frieza was still doing just the same as he was before. Also, the fact that Goku never announced an increase in his Kaioken level (by saying Kaioken x10) between here and King Kai's statement that he had already been using the Kaioken x10, it's made pretty clear that Goku was already using the Kaioken before we see the aura, which leads nicely into my theory about the surprise factor.
    Like I said, that had to be at least the normal Kaioken (duh), but it was most certainly higher than that. Everything else points to it being the Kaioken x10. In any case, if they were equal in base states, then even the first Kaioken would have been enough to badly punish Frieza before going to 50%, or at the very least hit him instead of getting smacked back easily. Goku had to struggle to even grab the tail of Frieza while he used no hands, so no, they were NOT equal. Even you cannot deny that Goku was using the Kaioken there when the "aura" is clearly shown. And that scene is also sufficient enough evidence to show that Goku was using the Kaioken the entire fight (while it wasn't shown due to AT keeping it a surprise).
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  • Avatar of PrinceVegeta2

    PrinceVegeta2

    [98]Jan 27, 2006
    • member since: 06/22/05
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Yamcha at the world tournament ring a bell?


    Ohh so that's what you meant, haha. Well let's see here, Yamcha's quote was never contradicted, proven wrong, or even has any valuable evidence against it. Thus, it can be used a fact same as Frieza's statement about being over a million.

    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    The statement was made as follows.

    "I see we have miscalulated your powers. Fortunately we're up to it. Even 19 here can handle you, and so of course can I."

    The dranet.com scans have this page HORRIBLY translated. And what I quoted is from the Viz version itself. And Deckzone is right, you are being hypocritical. I mean by your logic (as portrayed in this topic) yamcha might not have been right about Krillin being the mightiest human. Yet you consider Krillin stronger than EVERY humaAnd it wan a given in the other topic. Besides this I have unlimited evidence that Gero>>>19.


    Gero was proven to be weaker than #19 the very moment Piccolo crushed him. Or are you actually going to try to say that Piccolo was close to SSj Goku/SSj Vegeta in power? If you proceed with that claim, then I believe this discussion is already over with
    Funny, I just stumbled across this scene the other day. It's undeniable evidence that Goku and Frieza were NOT equal. Odd that I never actually noticed it before:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/bacon967/dbz%20manga/goku11.jpg
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/bacon967/dbz%20manga/goku12.jpg

    And that's from the official Viz manga, not that it would matter since no dialogue is involved So there you have it. This is the first we actually "see" the Kaioken aura, and it's way before Frieza went to 50%. Goku was still getting smacked down, while Frieza wasn't even using his hands. You say that Goku couldn't have been using the Kaioken the entire time, but how else could he have kept up if he didn't? It's clearly shown here that even when Goku was using the Kaioken he was no higher than Frieza. Even if this was only the Kaioken x2 (normal), then he should still be able to crush Frieza if they were truly equal in base form. Yet, Frieza was still doing just the same as he was before. Also, the fact that Goku never announced an increase in his Kaioken level (by saying Kaioken x10) between here and King Kai's statement that he had already been using the Kaioken x10, it's made pretty clear that Goku was already using the Kaioken before we see the aura, which leads nicely into my theory about the surprise factor.
    Like I said, that had to be at least the normal Kaioken (duh), but it was most certainly higher than that. Everything else points to it being the Kaioken x10. In any case, if they were equal in base states, then even the first Kaioken would have been enough to badly punish Frieza before going to 50%, or at the very least hit him instead of getting smacked back easily. Goku had to struggle to even grab the tail of Frieza while he used no hands, so no, they were NOT equal. Even you cannot deny that Goku was using the Kaioken there when the "aura" is clearly shown. And that scene is also sufficient enough evidence to show that Goku was using the Kaioken the entire fight (while it wasn't shown due to AT keeping it a surprise).


    LMAO do you have proof that that's before Frieza powered up? It's actually after. And you must be a fool to think that 19>>>Dr. Gero. Gero MADE both of them, so you really think that he'd wrong abou this? Also 19 absorbed Vegeta's power yet Vegeta crushed him (if you recall). Whilw at the same time Vegeta dared Gero to attack, yet Gero ran away. (And it was thus stated by Piccolo that Vegeta was bluffing and that in reality due to his power loss at the hands of 19 Gero would have crushed him) So let's see, Gero>>SSJ Vegeta (after losing chi to 19)>>>19.
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [99]Jan 27, 2006
    • member since: 05/18/05
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    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Yamcha at the world tournament ring a bell?


    Ohh so that's what you meant, haha. Well let's see here, Yamcha's quote was never contradicted, proven wrong, or even has any valuable evidence against it. Thus, it can be used a fact same as Frieza's statement about being over a million.

    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    The statement was made as follows.

    "I see we have miscalulated your powers. Fortunately we're up to it. Even 19 here can handle you, and so of course can I."

    The dranet.com scans have this page HORRIBLY translated. And what I quoted is from the Viz version itself. And Deckzone is right, you are being hypocritical. I mean by your logic (as portrayed in this topic) yamcha might not have been right about Krillin being the mightiest human. Yet you consider Krillin stronger than EVERY humaAnd it wan a given in the other topic. Besides this I have unlimited evidence that Gero>>>19.


    Gero was proven to be weaker than #19 the very moment Piccolo crushed him. Or are you actually going to try to say that Piccolo was close to SSj Goku/SSj Vegeta in power? If you proceed with that claim, then I believe this discussion is already over with
    Funny, I just stumbled across this scene the other day. It's undeniable evidence that Goku and Frieza were NOT equal. Odd that I never actually noticed it before:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/bacon967/dbz%20manga/goku11.jpg
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/bacon967/dbz%20manga/goku12.jpg

    And that's from the official Viz manga, not that it would matter since no dialogue is involved So there you have it. This is the first we actually "see" the Kaioken aura, and it's way before Frieza went to 50%. Goku was still getting smacked down, while Frieza wasn't even using his hands. You say that Goku couldn't have been using the Kaioken the entire time, but how else could he have kept up if he didn't? It's clearly shown here that even when Goku was using the Kaioken he was no higher than Frieza. Even if this was only the Kaioken x2 (normal), then he should still be able to crush Frieza if they were truly equal in base form. Yet, Frieza was still doing just the same as he was before. Also, the fact that Goku never announced an increase in his Kaioken level (by saying Kaioken x10) between here and King Kai's statement that he had already been using the Kaioken x10, it's made pretty clear that Goku was already using the Kaioken before we see the aura, which leads nicely into my theory about the surprise factor.
    Like I said, that had to be at least the normal Kaioken (duh), but it was most certainly higher than that. Everything else points to it being the Kaioken x10. In any case, if they were equal in base states, then even the first Kaioken would have been enough to badly punish Frieza before going to 50%, or at the very least hit him instead of getting smacked back easily. Goku had to struggle to even grab the tail of Frieza while he used no hands, so no, they were NOT equal. Even you cannot deny that Goku was using the Kaioken there when the "aura" is clearly shown. And that scene is also sufficient enough evidence to show that Goku was using the Kaioken the entire fight (while it wasn't shown due to AT keeping it a surprise).


    LMAO do you have proof that that's before Frieza powered up? It's actually after. And you must be a fool to think that 19>>>Dr. Gero. Gero MADE both of them, so you really think that he'd wrong abou this? Also 19 absorbed Vegeta's power yet Vegeta crushed him (if you recall). Whilw at the same time Vegeta dared Gero to attack, yet Gero ran away. (And it was thus stated by Piccolo that Vegeta was bluffing and that in reality due to his power loss at the hands of 19 Gero would have crushed him) So let's see, Gero>>SSJ Vegeta (after losing chi to 19)>>>19.


    Omg dude, I thought you were more knowledgable about DBZ than this...I got those two scans from a forum called MFG forums or something like that, while I was searching around for something. They were in a topic where this one kid tried to say that Frieza was 120,000,000. I saw those scans and since they were from the official manga, I used them here. I never went back to those forums though, seeing as how most people there have the humans in the hundred-thousands after the Frieza Saga on their power level lists...

    Those scans are indeed before Frieza powered up to 50%, and you can even tell by seeing how Frieza was fighting Goku without using his hands, which if you recall was before he powered up. Look at how Frieza has his arms crossed. Heh, yeah laugh at me, when it's clear you've got your story mixed up. Look through the manga again, it could even be the unofficial dranet translations, seeing as how there is no dialogue involved in those scans. And with that overwhelming evidence in my favor, this debate should be over with now.

    First you laugh at me, then you call me a fool? You're obviously wrong in accusing me of using scans in the wrong context, so how could I even think you're correct in saying that Gero > #19? Your evidence is lacking, and immediately proven wrong the moment Piccolo defeats Gero with ease. Heck, even base Vegeta and base Goku were stronger than Piccolo by this time. Vegeta did indeed smash #19, but not without losing a lot of energy. If base Vegeta was stronger than Piccolo, and SSj Vegeta is around 50x base Vegeta, then how could you hope to claim that Gero is stronger than #19? SSj Vegeta had to use a lot of strength to get #19 off of him (while he was absorbing his energy). So one-fiftieth of that power would have been base Vegeta's strength, and then even lower than that would have been Piccolo's strength (unless of course you actually believe that SSj Vegeta was over 50x as strong as #19, lol). Base Vegeta wouldn't have been able to defeat #19 or push him off, let alone Piccolo. Gero's "statement" could maybe have been taken as true IF there wasn't instant proof against it, which is Piccolo destroying Gero easily. And Piccolo saying Vegeta would have lost to Gero at that power means nothing. It was true, but the key statement in all this is he lost a lot of energy, therefore NOT a good backup for your evidence.

    I used to respect you as a member on this forum PrinceVegeta2.
    Edited on 01/27/2006 9:10pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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    deckzone3000

    [100]Jan 27, 2006
    • member since: 08/03/05
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Omg dude, I thought you were more knowledgable about DBZ than this...I got those two scans from a forum called MFG forums or something like that, while I was searching around for something. They were in a topic where this one kid tried to say that Frieza was 120,000,000. I saw those scans and since they were from the official manga, I used them here. I never went back to those forums though, seeing as how most people there have the humans in the hundred-thousands after the Frieza Saga on their power level lists...
    Recognize anyone over there?
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