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Frieza has a power level of 120,000,000

  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [101]Jan 28, 2006
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    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Omg dude, I thought you were more knowledgable about DBZ than this...I got those two scans from a forum called MFG forums or something like that, while I was searching around for something. They were in a topic where this one kid tried to say that Frieza was 120,000,000. I saw those scans and since they were from the official manga, I used them here. I never went back to those forums though, seeing as how most people there have the humans in the hundred-thousands after the Frieza Saga on their power level lists...
    Recognize anyone over there?


    No, why?
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  • Avatar of PrinceVegeta2

    PrinceVegeta2

    [102]Jan 29, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Yamcha at the world tournament ring a bell?


    Ohh so that's what you meant, haha. Well let's see here, Yamcha's quote was never contradicted, proven wrong, or even has any valuable evidence against it. Thus, it can be used a fact same as Frieza's statement about being over a million.

    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    The statement was made as follows.

    "I see we have miscalulated your powers. Fortunately we're up to it. Even 19 here can handle you, and so of course can I."

    The dranet.com scans have this page HORRIBLY translated. And what I quoted is from the Viz version itself. And Deckzone is right, you are being hypocritical. I mean by your logic (as portrayed in this topic) yamcha might not have been right about Krillin being the mightiest human. Yet you consider Krillin stronger than EVERY humaAnd it wan a given in the other topic. Besides this I have unlimited evidence that Gero>>>19.


    Gero was proven to be weaker than #19 the very moment Piccolo crushed him. Or are you actually going to try to say that Piccolo was close to SSj Goku/SSj Vegeta in power? If you proceed with that claim, then I believe this discussion is already over with
    Funny, I just stumbled across this scene the other day. It's undeniable evidence that Goku and Frieza were NOT equal. Odd that I never actually noticed it before:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/bacon967/dbz%20manga/goku11.jpg
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/bacon967/dbz%20manga/goku12.jpg

    And that's from the official Viz manga, not that it would matter since no dialogue is involved So there you have it. This is the first we actually "see" the Kaioken aura, and it's way before Frieza went to 50%. Goku was still getting smacked down, while Frieza wasn't even using his hands. You say that Goku couldn't have been using the Kaioken the entire time, but how else could he have kept up if he didn't? It's clearly shown here that even when Goku was using the Kaioken he was no higher than Frieza. Even if this was only the Kaioken x2 (normal), then he should still be able to crush Frieza if they were truly equal in base form. Yet, Frieza was still doing just the same as he was before. Also, the fact that Goku never announced an increase in his Kaioken level (by saying Kaioken x10) between here and King Kai's statement that he had already been using the Kaioken x10, it's made pretty clear that Goku was already using the Kaioken before we see the aura, which leads nicely into my theory about the surprise factor.
    Like I said, that had to be at least the normal Kaioken (duh), but it was most certainly higher than that. Everything else points to it being the Kaioken x10. In any case, if they were equal in base states, then even the first Kaioken would have been enough to badly punish Frieza before going to 50%, or at the very least hit him instead of getting smacked back easily. Goku had to struggle to even grab the tail of Frieza while he used no hands, so no, they were NOT equal. Even you cannot deny that Goku was using the Kaioken there when the "aura" is clearly shown. And that scene is also sufficient enough evidence to show that Goku was using the Kaioken the entire fight (while it wasn't shown due to AT keeping it a surprise).


    LMAO do you have proof that that's before Frieza powered up? It's actually after. And you must be a fool to think that 19>>>Dr. Gero. Gero MADE both of them, so you really think that he'd wrong abou this? Also 19 absorbed Vegeta's power yet Vegeta crushed him (if you recall). Whilw at the same time Vegeta dared Gero to attack, yet Gero ran away. (And it was thus stated by Piccolo that Vegeta was bluffing and that in reality due to his power loss at the hands of 19 Gero would have crushed him) So let's see, Gero>>SSJ Vegeta (after losing chi to 19)>>>19.


    Omg dude, I thought you were more knowledgable about DBZ than this...I got those two scans from a forum called MFG forums or something like that, while I was searching around for something. They were in a topic where this one kid tried to say that Frieza was 120,000,000. I saw those scans and since they were from the official manga, I used them here. I never went back to those forums though, seeing as how most people there have the humans in the hundred-thousands after the Frieza Saga on their power level lists...

    Those scans are indeed before Frieza powered up to 50%, and you can even tell by seeing how Frieza was fighting Goku without using his hands, which if you recall was before he powered up. Look at how Frieza has his arms crossed. Heh, yeah laugh at me, when it's clear you've got your story mixed up. Look through the manga again, it could even be the unofficial dranet translations, seeing as how there is no dialogue involved in those scans. And with that overwhelming evidence in my favor, this debate should be over with now.

    First you laugh at me, then you call me a fool? You're obviously wrong in accusing me of using scans in the wrong context, so how could I even think you're correct in saying that Gero > #19? Your evidence is lacking, and immediately proven wrong the moment Piccolo defeats Gero with ease. Heck, even base Vegeta and base Goku were stronger than Piccolo by this time. Vegeta did indeed smash #19, but not without losing a lot of energy. If base Vegeta was stronger than Piccolo, and SSj Vegeta is around 50x base Vegeta, then how could you hope to claim that Gero is stronger than #19? SSj Vegeta had to use a lot of strength to get #19 off of him (while he was absorbing his energy). So one-fiftieth of that power would have been base Vegeta's strength, and then even lower than that would have been Piccolo's strength (unless of course you actually believe that SSj Vegeta was over 50x as strong as #19, lol). Base Vegeta wouldn't have been able to defeat #19 or push him off, let alone Piccolo. Gero's "statement" could maybe have been taken as true IF there wasn't instant proof against it, which is Piccolo destroying Gero easily. And Piccolo saying Vegeta would have lost to Gero at that power means nothing. It was true, but the key statement in all this is he lost a lot of energy, therefore NOT a good backup for your evidence.

    I used to respect you as a member on this forum PrinceVegeta2.


    I used to respect you as well. That is until you displayed contradicting facts. Gero stated himself that he is suiperior to 19. THE PERSON THAT CREATED BOTH ANDROIDS. For me this is a much more clear statement than that regarding the Krillin statement. Since this statement is NEVER contradicted. ACtually it is proven correct by having Piccolo state that Vegeta is no match for Gero (after losing chi to 19) YET VEGETA KILLED 19 in a blast (even after he was weakened) I am sorry to say but you are making me have my doubts about whether you read my posts at all.
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [103]Jan 29, 2006
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    Even Gero stating that he's stronger holds no ground so long as it was contradicted, and it was. Piccolo easiliy defeated Gero quickly, with no trouble at all. There is no way that Piccolo was as strong as #19. Like I said, you can't use Piccolo's statement about how Vegeta would lose to Gero at that moment simply because it holds no ground in proving that Gero was stronger than #19 either. Vegeta lost a LOT of energy, thus making him weak enough for even Piccolo to have killed him, that's all. Gero's "statement" was contradicted, unlike Piccolo's, or even Yamcha's.

    Edit: And another thing, base Goku and Vegeta were most likely more powerful than Piccolo at this point and time, so why would either of them feel the need to go SSj to fight #19 if #19 was weaker than Gero, and Piccolo (who was weaker than base Goku and Vegeta) was able to crush Gero easily even after he absorbed Vegeta's ki attack? The facts don't add up.
    Edited on 01/29/2006 9:08pm
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  • Avatar of PrinceVegeta2

    PrinceVegeta2

    [104]Jan 30, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    Even Gero stating that he's stronger holds no ground so long as it was contradicted, and it was. Piccolo easiliy defeated Gero quickly, with no trouble at all. There is no way that Piccolo was as strong as #19. Like I said, you can't use Piccolo's statement about how Vegeta would lose to Gero at that moment simply because it holds no ground in proving that Gero was stronger than #19 either. Vegeta lost a LOT of energy, thus making him weak enough for even Piccolo to have killed him, that's all. Gero's "statement" was contradicted, unlike Piccolo's, or even Yamcha's.

    Edit: And another thing, base Goku and Vegeta were most likely more powerful than Piccolo at this point and time, so why would either of them feel the need to go SSj to fight #19 if #19 was weaker than Gero, and Piccolo (who was weaker than base Goku and Vegeta) was able to crush Gero easily even after he absorbed Vegeta's ki attack? The facts don't add up.


    But you see Vegeta killed 19 in one blast [I]after[I] he lost energy. In fact he had the same amount of power at the time in which it was stated by Piccolo (and confirmed by Vegeta himself) that Gero would have been able to kill him (by him I mean Vegeta). So since he hadn't lost any power in between the time he killed 19, and the time Gero was stated to be able to kill him; it's pretty logical that Gero>>>19. That particluar statement saying that Gero>>>19 simply backs my proof up. Now I know you said that going SSJ would not be needed. But there really was no way for Vegeta and Goku to know. I mean it's impossible to sense chi from an android. They probably went SSJ for the mere fact that they were taking precautions. I mean, Trunks even told them that they were to die in his timeline, so it was probably to be cautious.
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  • Avatar of deckzone3000

    deckzone3000

    [105]Jan 30, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    And another thing, base Goku and Vegeta were most likely more powerful than Piccolo at this point and time, so why would either of them feel the need to go SSj to fight #19 if #19 was weaker than Gero, and Piccolo (who was weaker than base Goku and Vegeta) was able to crush Gero easily even after he absorbed Vegeta's ki attack?
    Vegeta was showing off that little ability he reached, called Super Saiyan.
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [106]Jan 30, 2006
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    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    But you see Vegeta killed 19 in one blast [I]after[I] he lost energy. In fact he had the same amount of power at the time in which it was stated by Piccolo (and confirmed by Vegeta himself) that Gero would have been able to kill him (by him I mean Vegeta). So since he hadn't lost any power in between the time he killed 19, and the time Gero was stated to be able to kill him; it's pretty logical that Gero>>>19. That particluar statement saying that Gero>>>19 simply backs my proof up. Now I know you said that going SSJ would not be needed. But there really was no way for Vegeta and Goku to know. I mean it's impossible to sense chi from an android. They probably went SSJ for the mere fact that they were taking precautions. I mean, Trunks even told them that they were to die in his timeline, so it was probably to be cautious.


    Well let's see, Vegeta was beating the crap out of #19, forcing him to steal energy to continue fighting, and he did. Yet, Vegeta broke #19's hands off, therefore he couldn't absorb anymore energy, which is how Vegeta killed him with a ki blast. Neither #19 or Gero were all that strong to begin with compared to SSj Goku and SSj Vegeta. But, I DO know that #19 wasn't at 1/50th the strength of SSj Vegeta, and I'll explain the significance of that. Base Vegeta and Goku were most likely more powerful than Piccolo at this point, and the SSj form increases one's power by about 50x. Since Piccolo was less the base forms of Goku and Vegeta, he'd be less than 1/50 the strength of SSj Vegeta and Goku. Vegeta beat #19, but not before getting most of his energy sapped. #19 was at least strong enough to hold onto SSj Vegeta for a while while Vegeta was pushing his away with all his strength (and he had to be using all his strength, considering how much of his energy he was going to be losing). Now, Piccolo (who was less than 1/50 the strength of SSj Vegeta) was able to make a fool out of Gero. So we see it like this: #19 was able to hold onto and sap most of the energy of SSj Vegeta, who was more than 50x the strength of Piccolo, who made a fool out of Gero. You can also look at it this way: Gero wrapped himself around Piccolo from behind, thus making him have a much better grip than #19 had on Vegeta. Yet, Gero was able to be knocked off by a simple kick from Gohan. However, #19 was able to hold on for quite a while while SSj Vegeta was using his legs to push #19 away. Also, both Goku and Vegeta obviously felt the need to go SSj to win.

    In short, Piccolo was able to make a fool out of Gero easily, while Piccolo was only less than 1/50 of the strength of SSj Vegeta, who had a tough time pushing #19 off of him. Piccolo crushing Gero (right after he just absorbed Vegeta's large ki attack) should easily be enough proof to prove my side correct Add onto that the fact that Piccolo didn't exactly know how strong Gero or #19 was in the first place (since he couldn't sense their powers), so his statement about how Gero would have beat Vegeta at that moment may not have been based on anything other than his own thoughts of how strong the Androids were. One more thing, to say Gero was greater than #19 would be to say that Piccolo would have been able to beat SSj Goku once the heart virus starting taking effect, and we all know that's wrong.

    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Vegeta was showing off that little ability he reached, called Super Saiyan.


    That still doesn't explain why Goku felt the need to go SSj, or why Vegeta still had trouble pushing #19 off of him when he didn't even have that great of a grip on him in the first place (like Gero did on Piccolo). #19 may have not even ever been forced to let go if not for his arms breaking off.
    Edited on 01/30/2006 9:29pm
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  • Avatar of deckzone3000

    deckzone3000

    [107]Jan 30, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Vegeta was showing off that little ability he reached, called Super Saiyan.


    That still doesn't explain why Goku felt the need to go SSj, or why Vegeta still had trouble pushing #19 off of him when he didn't even have that great of a grip on him in the first place (like Gero did on Piccolo). #19 may have not even ever been forced to let go if not for his arms breaking off.
    http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume29/Db29ch03/db29_043.gif
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [108]Jan 30, 2006
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    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Vegeta was showing off that little ability he reached, called Super Saiyan.


    That still doesn't explain why Goku felt the need to go SSj, or why Vegeta still had trouble pushing #19 off of him when he didn't even have that great of a grip on him in the first place (like Gero did on Piccolo). #19 may have not even ever been forced to let go if not for his arms breaking off.
    http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume29/Db29ch03/db29_043.gif


    Yeah no kidding, what's your point. That doesn't explain why Goku and Vegeta still wouldn't have been able to beat #19 without going SSj. Wouldn't Goku have fought some in base form if he didn't feel the need to go SSj right away? Goku was still beat up in SSj form (though mostly due to the heart virus), and even weakened as far as he was, he would have still been stronger than Piccolo
    Edited on 01/30/2006 10:11pm
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  • Avatar of deckzone3000

    deckzone3000

    [109]Jan 31, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Vegeta was showing off that little ability he reached, called Super Saiyan.


    That still doesn't explain why Goku felt the need to go SSj, or why Vegeta still had trouble pushing #19 off of him when he didn't even have that great of a grip on him in the first place (like Gero did on Piccolo). #19 may have not even ever been forced to let go if not for his arms breaking off.
    http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume29/Db29ch03/db29_043.gif


    Yeah no kidding, what's your point. That doesn't explain why Goku and Vegeta still wouldn't have been able to beat #19 without going SSj. Wouldn't Goku have fought some in base form if he didn't feel the need to go SSj right away? Goku was still beat up in SSj form (though mostly due to the heart virus), and even weakened as far as he was, he would have still been stronger than Piccolo
    They said they could beat him, even if had gotten stronger. And even Trunks told him they were just as strong as a super saiyan.
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [110]Jan 31, 2006
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    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Vegeta was showing off that little ability he reached, called Super Saiyan.


    That still doesn't explain why Goku felt the need to go SSj, or why Vegeta still had trouble pushing #19 off of him when he didn't even have that great of a grip on him in the first place (like Gero did on Piccolo). #19 may have not even ever been forced to let go if not for his arms breaking off.
    http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume29/Db29ch03/db29_043.gif


    Yeah no kidding, what's your point. That doesn't explain why Goku and Vegeta still wouldn't have been able to beat #19 without going SSj. Wouldn't Goku have fought some in base form if he didn't feel the need to go SSj right away? Goku was still beat up in SSj form (though mostly due to the heart virus), and even weakened as far as he was, he would have still been stronger than Piccolo
    They said they could beat him, even if had gotten stronger. And even Trunks told him they were just as strong as a super saiyan.


    Which means, since they were as strong as a SSj, they would have been stronger than Piccolo. Except, Piccolo proved that Gero was weak by crushing him.
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  • Avatar of PrinceVegeta2

    PrinceVegeta2

    [111]Jan 31, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    But you see Vegeta killed 19 in one blast [I]after[I] he lost energy. In fact he had the same amount of power at the time in which it was stated by Piccolo (and confirmed by Vegeta himself) that Gero would have been able to kill him (by him I mean Vegeta). So since he hadn't lost any power in between the time he killed 19, and the time Gero was stated to be able to kill him; it's pretty logical that Gero>>>19. That particluar statement saying that Gero>>>19 simply backs my proof up. Now I know you said that going SSJ would not be needed. But there really was no way for Vegeta and Goku to know. I mean it's impossible to sense chi from an android. They probably went SSJ for the mere fact that they were taking precautions. I mean, Trunks even told them that they were to die in his timeline, so it was probably to be cautious.


    Well let's see, Vegeta was beating the crap out of #19, forcing him to steal energy to continue fighting, and he did. Yet, Vegeta broke #19's hands off, therefore he couldn't absorb anymore energy, which is how Vegeta killed him with a ki blast. Neither #19 or Gero were all that strong to begin with compared to SSj Goku and SSj Vegeta. But, I DO know that #19 wasn't at 1/50th the strength of SSj Vegeta, and I'll explain the significance of that. Base Vegeta and Goku were most likely more powerful than Piccolo at this point, and the SSj form increases one's power by about 50x. Since Piccolo was less the base forms of Goku and Vegeta, he'd be less than 1/50 the strength of SSj Vegeta and Goku. Vegeta beat #19, but not before getting most of his energy sapped. #19 was at least strong enough to hold onto SSj Vegeta for a while while Vegeta was pushing his away with all his strength (and he had to be using all his strength, considering how much of his energy he was going to be losing). Now, Piccolo (who was less than 1/50 the strength of SSj Vegeta) was able to make a fool out of Gero. So we see it like this: #19 was able to hold onto and sap most of the energy of SSj Vegeta, who was more than 50x the strength of Piccolo, who made a fool out of Gero. You can also look at it this way: Gero wrapped himself around Piccolo from behind, thus making him have a much better grip than #19 had on Vegeta. Yet, Gero was able to be knocked off by a simple kick from Gohan. However, #19 was able to hold on for quite a while while SSj Vegeta was using his legs to push #19 away. Also, both Goku and Vegeta obviously felt the need to go SSj to win.

    In short, Piccolo was able to make a fool out of Gero easily, while Piccolo was only less than 1/50 of the strength of SSj Vegeta, who had a tough time pushing #19 off of him. Piccolo crushing Gero (right after he just absorbed Vegeta's large ki attack) should easily be enough proof to prove my side correct Add onto that the fact that Piccolo didn't exactly know how strong Gero or #19 was in the first place (since he couldn't sense their powers), so his statement about how Gero would have beat Vegeta at that moment may not have been based on anything other than his own thoughts of how strong the Androids were. One more thing, to say Gero was greater than #19 would be to say that Piccolo would have been able to beat SSj Goku once the heart virus starting taking effect, and we all know that's wrong.

    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Vegeta was showing off that little ability he reached, called Super Saiyan.


    That still doesn't explain why Goku felt the need to go SSj, or why Vegeta still had trouble pushing #19 off of him when he didn't even have that great of a grip on him in the first place (like Gero did on Piccolo). #19 may have not even ever been forced to let go if not for his arms breaking off.


    Your errors start at the point in which you said that SSJ Vegeta is 50x Piccolo. That is a horrible assumption. You are assuming that the SSJ power up stays consistent. I have to make this bold so that you don't ignore it this time. Vegeta was beating 19 up. In fact the level of superiority that Vegeta had in comparison to 19 was so great that Gero was surprised. Even after Vegeta lost chi he proved his superiority to 19. Yet it was stated by Piccolo that he wouldn't be able to stand a chance against Gero. This means that Gero>>>Vegeta (after losing energy)>>>>19.
    Edited on 01/31/2006 10:09pm
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  • Avatar of deckzone3000

    deckzone3000

    [112]Jan 31, 2006
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    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Vegeta was showing off that little ability he reached, called Super Saiyan.


    That still doesn't explain why Goku felt the need to go SSj, or why Vegeta still had trouble pushing #19 off of him when he didn't even have that great of a grip on him in the first place (like Gero did on Piccolo). #19 may have not even ever been forced to let go if not for his arms breaking off.
    http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume29/Db29ch03/db29_043.gif


    Yeah no kidding, what's your point. That doesn't explain why Goku and Vegeta still wouldn't have been able to beat #19 without going SSj. Wouldn't Goku have fought some in base form if he didn't feel the need to go SSj right away? Goku was still beat up in SSj form (though mostly due to the heart virus), and even weakened as far as he was, he would have still been stronger than Piccolo
    They said they could beat him, even if had gotten stronger. And even Trunks told him they were just as strong as a super saiyan.


    Which means, since they were as strong as a SSj, they would have been stronger than Piccolo. Except, Piccolo proved that Gero was weak by crushing him.
    Maybe you forgot, but Goku was the first up against the androids.
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [113]Feb 1, 2006
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    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    Your errors start at the point in which you said that SSJ Vegeta is 50x Piccolo. That is a horrible assumption. You are assuming that the SSJ power up stays consistent. I have to make this bold so that you don't ignore it this time. Vegeta was beating 19 up. In fact the level of superiority that Vegeta had in comparison to 19 was so great that Gero was surprised. Even after Vegeta lost chi he proved his superiority to 19. Yet it was stated by Piccolo that he wouldn't be able to stand a chance against Gero. This means that Gero>>>Vegeta (after losing energy)>>>>19.


    ...and you constantly assume by saying that things aren't consistent in Dragonball. There is far more proof against the SSj power-up being not consistent. You wouldn't be able to prove that it wasn't consistent if you had to, since there is no such proof. However, considering that Goku's SSj in the Android Saga was stronger than in the Frieza Saga, that shows that the SSj multiplier was no less than it was on Namek. Plain and simple, eh? It's WAY more of an assumption to say that the multiplier wasn't consistent than to say it was, and so long as you can't prove it (which you can't possibly), you might as well quit using that argument. Horrible assumption my foot.

    Gero was more that surprised, he was scared. Someone who could beat #19 up would have been able to crush Gero. Vegeta destroyed #19 with one blast, but look at how much power he had to put into it, and it was one of his strongest attacks. It's not as if it was a simple ki blast. In any case how would Piccolo have known Gero's power? I'm betting Piccolo just assumed that Gero was strong, until he ended up crushing him. Nobody knew how powerful either of those Androids were, not Piccolo, not Vegeta. Also, seeing as how #19 had spots on his hands where he could absorb energy, it was safe for them to say that Gero had them too. So Piccolo could have considered the fact that Vegeta in his weakened state would have been reduced to nothing had Gero got his hands on him.

    Like I said, #19 was obviously quite strong, seeing as how he could keep a hold of SSj Vegeta for a long time while Vegeta put his full strength into pushing him off. Gero was knocked off of Piccolo by a simple kick from Gohan, and with a much better grip than what #19 had on Vegeta. Gero could be stronger than #19 considering how long #19 was able to hold onto SSj Vegeta. He only let go because of his arms breaking off anyway. >_>

    deckzone3000 wrote:
    Maybe you forgot, but Goku was the first up against the androids.


    ...um, yeah, I know.
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  • Avatar of PrinceVegeta2

    PrinceVegeta2

    [114]Feb 1, 2006
    • member since: 06/22/05
    • level: 13
    • rank: Regal Beagle
    • posts: 3,600
    [QUOTE="OneTruePhoenix"]
    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    Your errors start at the point in which you said that SSJ Vegeta is 50x Piccolo. That is a horrible assumption. You are assuming that the SSJ power up stays consistent. I have to make this bold so that you don't ignore it this time. Vegeta was beating 19 up. In fact the level of superiority that Vegeta had in comparison to 19 was so great that Gero was surprised. Even after Vegeta lost chi he proved his superiority to 19. Yet it was stated by Piccolo that he wouldn't be able to stand a chance against Gero. This means that Gero>>>Vegeta (after losing energy)>>>>19.


    ...and you constantly assume by saying that things aren't consistent in Dragonball. There is far more proof against the SSj power-up being not consistent. You wouldn't be able to prove that it wasn't consistent if you had to, since there is no such proof. However, considering that Goku's SSj in the Android Saga was stronger than in the Frieza Saga, that shows that the SSj multiplier was no less than it was on Namek. Plain and simple, eh? It's WAY more of an assumption to say that the multiplier wasn't consistent than to say it was, and so long as you can't prove it (which you can't possibly), you might as well quit using that argument. Horrible assumption my foot.

    Gero was more that surprised, he was scared. Someone who could beat #19 up would have been able to crush Gero. Vegeta destroyed #19 with one blast, but look at how much power he had to put into it, and it was one of his strongest attacks. It's not as if it was a simple ki blast. In any case how would Piccolo have known Gero's power? I'm betting Piccolo just assumed that Gero was strong, until he ended up crushing him. Nobody knew how powerful either of those Androids were, not Piccolo, not Vegeta. Also, seeing as how #19 had spots on his hands where he could absorb energy, it was safe for them to say that Gero had them too. So Piccolo could have considered the fact that Vegeta in his weakened state would have been reduced to nothing had Gero got his hands on him.

    Like I said, #19 was obviously quite strong, seeing as how he could keep a hold of SSj Vegeta for a long time while Vegeta put his full strength into pushing him off. Gero was knocked off of Piccolo by a simple kick from Gohan, and with a much better grip than what #19 had on Vegeta. Gero could be stronger than #19 considering how long #19 was able to hold onto SSj Vegeta. He only let go because of his arms breaking off anyway. >_>

    [QUOTE]

    You are unbelieveable....

    Let me break this down. You think that SSJ Vegeta is 50x stronger than Piccolo and that since 20>>>>19, and since it was stated by Piccolo (and confirmed by Vegeta since he yells at Krillin demanding a Senzu bean) that 20>>>>>Vegeta (after losing Chi) you must think that Vegeta's Big Bang attack caused him to lose near 90% of his chi. That's almost laughable. Considering that even by your logic Vegeta after losing that much CHi would still be superior to 20.

    Now let me tell you how it really is. 20>>>>19 as I proved above. SO this means that Piccolo>>SSJ Vegeta (after losing Chi). My guess is that he probably had less than have his chi left. So Piccolo was probably 2 to 3 times weaker than SSJ Vegeta at his full power. Now as you said before Base Vegeta>>>Piccolo. This means that SSJ Vegeta is as low as 2-3 times stronger than Base Vegeta.
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [115]Feb 2, 2006
    • member since: 05/18/05
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 407
    PrinceVegeta wrote:
    You are unbelieveable....

    Let me break this down. You think that SSJ Vegeta is 50x stronger than Piccolo and that since 20>>>>19, and since it was stated by Piccolo (and confirmed by Vegeta since he yells at Krillin demanding a Senzu bean) that 20>>>>>Vegeta (after losing Chi) you must think that Vegeta's Big Bang attack caused him to lose near 90% of his chi. That's almost laughable. Considering that even by your logic Vegeta after losing that much CHi would still be superior to 20.

    Now let me tell you how it really is. 20>>>>19 as I proved above. SO this means that Piccolo>>SSJ Vegeta (after losing Chi). My guess is that he probably had less than have his chi left. So Piccolo was probably 2 to 3 times weaker than SSJ Vegeta at his full power. Now as you said before Base Vegeta>>>Piccolo. This means that SSJ Vegeta is as low as 2-3 times stronger than Base Vegeta.


    ...and the circle continues. You aren't going anywhere in this debate, and you can't with the limited amount of evidence available to your side. I tire of debating with people on forums who never accept a loss, seriously. There are always stubborn people on forums. Looks like I've found another one. Oh, and being stubborn when you're wrong is different than being stubborn when you're right, before you go off and accuse me of being stubborn like I know you're going to

    Prove to me that Piccolo or Vegeta could sense either #19's or Gero's power levels, and you may have a stable argument going for you. Piccolo saying that Gero could have beat SSj Vegeta in his weakened state was nothing more than his opinion after having the idea that these Androids were strong, whether he was right or not. Piccolo surely didn't know how much power Gero had, so how could he have compared his power with Vegeta's?

    And for one thing, I NEVER said anything that even remotely hinted towards the idea that Vegeta's Big Bang Attack was the cause of his loss of so much energy. Some people are good at pulling things out of nowhere...
    You know what the biggest hole in your "argument" is? You're sadly trying to use the statement from Piccolo as evidence, when it's clear that it can't favorably be used by your side. The fact that Piccolo said Gero would have beat Vegeta was based on the fact that Vegeta lost a LOT of energy. It would have been good proof if Vegeta was closer to full power, or even if Piccolo even KNEW what Gero's power was. But no, neither of those are the case here. I don't understand why you insist on using evidence that isn't even evidence of anything. That's like trying to say that Tien was as strong as Cell because of him holding him down with the Shin-Kikoho, lol. Try to find better evidence, like I at least try to do before participating in a debate.

    BASE Vegeta is stronger than Piccolo at this time, thus SSj Vegeta is more than 50x as strong as Piccolo. You can't get around this, since it's impossible to prove an inconsistency in the SSj power-up. Seeing as how SSj Goku is considerably stronger in the Android Saga than he was on Namek, that's an easy way to see that the SSj power-up is consistent. And seeing as how SSj Vegeta was just as powerful, if not more powerful than SSj Goku at this point, his power-up is the same. Now that we have that clear enough, we have Piccolo. Piccolo was able to crush Gero easily. While #19 was able to steal a LOT of Vegeta's energy before dying. #19 was strong enough to hold onto SSj Vegeta for a long time while Vegeta was trying his hardest to push him off, and even then he only let go because his arms broke off. Whereas Gero was knocked off of Piccolo by a kick from Gohan, and with a FAR better grip than #19 had (he was wrapped around Piccolo for Pete's sake!). Hopefully you'll be able to understand it this time around, because I'm tired of debating with you on this subject. I honestly thought it was common knowledge throughout the DBZ fandom that #19 was stronger than Gero...

    Your last paragraph is wrong since you cannot hope to prove it truly. There's no proof that the SSj power-up is inconsistent. SSj Goku and SSj Vegeta's strength in the Android Saga is proof enough. Or do you honestly think that Goku's base form somehow magically came close to his previous SSj power? =D If your theory was correct, then eventually Goku's base would become stronger than his SSj form, lol. Otherwise, there's no reason for their SSj forms to decrease in the power increase.
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  • Avatar of PrinceVegeta2

    PrinceVegeta2

    [116]Feb 2, 2006
    • member since: 06/22/05
    • level: 13
    • rank: Regal Beagle
    • posts: 3,600
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    PrinceVegeta wrote:
    You are unbelieveable....

    Let me break this down. You think that SSJ Vegeta is 50x stronger than Piccolo and that since 20>>>>19, and since it was stated by Piccolo (and confirmed by Vegeta since he yells at Krillin demanding a Senzu bean) that 20>>>>>Vegeta (after losing Chi) you must think that Vegeta's Big Bang attack caused him to lose near 90% of his chi. That's almost laughable. Considering that even by your logic Vegeta after losing that much CHi would still be superior to 20.

    Now let me tell you how it really is. 20>>>>19 as I proved above. SO this means that Piccolo>>SSJ Vegeta (after losing Chi). My guess is that he probably had less than have his chi left. So Piccolo was probably 2 to 3 times weaker than SSJ Vegeta at his full power. Now as you said before Base Vegeta>>>Piccolo. This means that SSJ Vegeta is as low as 2-3 times stronger than Base Vegeta.


    ...and the circle continues. You aren't going anywhere in this debate, and you can't with the limited amount of evidence available to your side. I tire of debating with people on forums who never accept a loss, seriously. There are always stubborn people on forums. Looks like I've found another one. Oh, and being stubborn when you're wrong is different than being stubborn when you're right, before you go off and accuse me of being stubborn like I know you're going to

    Prove to me that Piccolo or Vegeta could sense either #19's or Gero's power levels, and you may have a stable argument going for you. Piccolo saying that Gero could have beat SSj Vegeta in his weakened state was nothing more than his opinion after having the idea that these Androids were strong, whether he was right or not. Piccolo surely didn't know how much power Gero had, so how could he have compared his power with Vegeta's?

    And for one thing, I NEVER said anything that even remotely hinted towards the idea that Vegeta's Big Bang Attack was the cause of his loss of so much energy. Some people are good at pulling things out of nowhere...
    You know what the biggest hole in your "argument" is? You're sadly trying to use the statement from Piccolo as evidence, when it's clear that it can't favorably be used by your side. The fact that Piccolo said Gero would have beat Vegeta was based on the fact that Vegeta lost a LOT of energy. It would have been good proof if Vegeta was closer to full power, or even if Piccolo even KNEW what Gero's power was. But no, neither of those are the case here. I don't understand why you insist on using evidence that isn't even evidence of anything. That's like trying to say that Tien was as strong as Cell because of him holding him down with the Shin-Kikoho, lol. Try to find better evidence, like I at least try to do before participating in a debate.

    BASE Vegeta is stronger than Piccolo at this time, thus SSj Vegeta is more than 50x as strong as Piccolo. You can't get around this, since it's impossible to prove an inconsistency in the SSj power-up. Seeing as how SSj Goku is considerably stronger in the Android Saga than he was on Namek, that's an easy way to see that the SSj power-up is consistent. And seeing as how SSj Vegeta was just as powerful, if not more powerful than SSj Goku at this point, his power-up is the same. Now that we have that clear enough, we have Piccolo. Piccolo was able to crush Gero easily. While #19 was able to steal a LOT of Vegeta's energy before dying. #19 was strong enough to hold onto SSj Vegeta for a long time while Vegeta was trying his hardest to push him off, and even then he only let go because his arms broke off. Whereas Gero was knocked off of Piccolo by a kick from Gohan, and with a FAR better grip than #19 had (he was wrapped around Piccolo for Pete's sake!). Hopefully you'll be able to understand it this time around, because I'm tired of debating with you on this subject. I honestly thought it was common knowledge throughout the DBZ fandom that #19 was stronger than Gero...

    Your last paragraph is wrong since you cannot hope to prove it truly. There's no proof that the SSj power-up is inconsistent. SSj Goku and SSj Vegeta's strength in the Android Saga is proof enough. Or do you honestly think that Goku's base form somehow magically came close to his previous SSj power? =D If your theory was correct, then eventually Goku's base would become stronger than his SSj form, lol. Otherwise, there's no reason for their SSj forms to decrease in the power increase.


    Holy mother of god. Even Vegeta knew that he was no match for 20 after he was weakened. Your counter arguments are about as lame as me saying that "Yamcha probably didn't include Tien in his statement regarding Krillin being the mightiest human" since he wasn't able to sense Tien's chi. (As neither was Gohan) When Goku became SSJ Gero stated that him and 19 are more than capable in handling him. He said, "fortuneately we're up to it." Besides I find your whole post ironic as YOU are in fact being ignorant and not consider any of my posts. I also like to add that your posts in this thread when compared to the ones in the Krillin vs Tien thread define the meaning of the word "oxymoron."
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  • Avatar of dexter111344

    dexter111344

    [117]Feb 3, 2006
    • member since: 07/12/05
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 341
    OneTruePhoenix, you are making it seem as if Gohan is weak. Gohan held his own against every form of Frieza, even when Frieza was at full power! Therefore, you can say Gohan was at either 10,000,000 or 100,000,000. If Piccolo or Goku had been killed, he would have gone Super Saiyan on Namek...
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  • Avatar of deckzone3000

    deckzone3000

    [118]Feb 3, 2006
    • member since: 08/03/05
    • level: 20
    • rank: Cow Bell
    • posts: 8,266
    dexter111344 wrote:
    If Piccolo or Goku had been killed, he would have gone Super Saiyan on Namek...
    Yeah right
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  • Avatar of OneTruePhoenix

    OneTruePhoenix

    [119]Feb 4, 2006
    • member since: 05/18/05
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 407
    PrinceVegeta2 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix wrote:
    PrinceVegeta wrote:
    You are unbelieveable....

    Let me break this down. You think that SSJ Vegeta is 50x stronger than Piccolo and that since 20>>>>19, and since it was stated by Piccolo (and confirmed by Vegeta since he yells at Krillin demanding a Senzu bean) that 20>>>>>Vegeta (after losing Chi) you must think that Vegeta's Big Bang attack caused him to lose near 90% of his chi. That's almost laughable. Considering that even by your logic Vegeta after losing that much CHi would still be superior to 20.

    Now let me tell you how it really is. 20>>>>19 as I proved above. SO this means that Piccolo>>SSJ Vegeta (after losing Chi). My guess is that he probably had less than have his chi left. So Piccolo was probably 2 to 3 times weaker than SSJ Vegeta at his full power. Now as you said before Base Vegeta>>>Piccolo. This means that SSJ Vegeta is as low as 2-3 times stronger than Base Vegeta.


    ...and the circle continues. You aren't going anywhere in this debate, and you can't with the limited amount of evidence available to your side. I tire of debating with people on forums who never accept a loss, seriously. There are always stubborn people on forums. Looks like I've found another one. Oh, and being stubborn when you're wrong is different than being stubborn when you're right, before you go off and accuse me of being stubborn like I know you're going to

    Prove to me that Piccolo or Vegeta could sense either #19's or Gero's power levels, and you may have a stable argument going for you. Piccolo saying that Gero could have beat SSj Vegeta in his weakened state was nothing more than his opinion after having the idea that these Androids were strong, whether he was right or not. Piccolo surely didn't know how much power Gero had, so how could he have compared his power with Vegeta's?

    And for one thing, I NEVER said anything that even remotely hinted towards the idea that Vegeta's Big Bang Attack was the cause of his loss of so much energy. Some people are good at pulling things out of nowhere...
    You know what the biggest hole in your "argument" is? You're sadly trying to use the statement from Piccolo as evidence, when it's clear that it can't favorably be used by your side. The fact that Piccolo said Gero would have beat Vegeta was based on the fact that Vegeta lost a LOT of energy. It would have been good proof if Vegeta was closer to full power, or even if Piccolo even KNEW what Gero's power was. But no, neither of those are the case here. I don't understand why you insist on using evidence that isn't even evidence of anything. That's like trying to say that Tien was as strong as Cell because of him holding him down with the Shin-Kikoho, lol. Try to find better evidence, like I at least try to do before participating in a debate.

    BASE Vegeta is stronger than Piccolo at this time, thus SSj Vegeta is more than 50x as strong as Piccolo. You can't get around this, since it's impossible to prove an inconsistency in the SSj power-up. Seeing as how SSj Goku is considerably stronger in the Android Saga than he was on Namek, that's an easy way to see that the SSj power-up is consistent. And seeing as how SSj Vegeta was just as powerful, if not more powerful than SSj Goku at this point, his power-up is the same. Now that we have that clear enough, we have Piccolo. Piccolo was able to crush Gero easily. While #19 was able to steal a LOT of Vegeta's energy before dying. #19 was strong enough to hold onto SSj Vegeta for a long time while Vegeta was trying his hardest to push him off, and even then he only let go because his arms broke off. Whereas Gero was knocked off of Piccolo by a kick from Gohan, and with a FAR better grip than #19 had (he was wrapped around Piccolo for Pete's sake!). Hopefully you'll be able to understand it this time around, because I'm tired of debating with you on this subject. I honestly thought it was common knowledge throughout the DBZ fandom that #19 was stronger than Gero...

    Your last paragraph is wrong since you cannot hope to prove it truly. There's no proof that the SSj power-up is inconsistent. SSj Goku and SSj Vegeta's strength in the Android Saga is proof enough. Or do you honestly think that Goku's base form somehow magically came close to his previous SSj power? =D If your theory was correct, then eventually Goku's base would become stronger than his SSj form, lol. Otherwise, there's no reason for their SSj forms to decrease in the power increase.


    Holy mother of god. Even Vegeta knew that he was no match for 20 after he was weakened. Your counter arguments are about as lame as me saying that "Yamcha probably didn't include Tien in his statement regarding Krillin being the mightiest human" since he wasn't able to sense Tien's chi. (As neither was Gohan) When Goku became SSJ Gero stated that him and 19 are more than capable in handling him. He said, "fortuneately we're up to it." Besides I find your whole post ironic as YOU are in fact being ignorant and not consider any of my posts. I also like to add that your posts in this thread when compared to the ones in the Krillin vs Tien thread define the meaning of the word "oxymoron."


    It doesn't matter if Vegeta or Piccolo thought that Vegeta would have lost to Gero at that moment, as neither of them could possibly sense Gero's power. And seeing as how they didn't know what his power was, Piccolo most likely took into consideration Gero's absorption ability. If Vegeta in his weakened state were to have more of his energy stolen by Gero, then Vegeta wouldn't have been able to stand up. Even if what they said was true, it doesn't help you since it's basically comparing Gero at full power to SSj Vegeta greatly weakened. Nothing in there helps to prove Gero > #19.

    Vegeta and Piccolo not being able to sense Gero's power is FAR different than you saying that Yamcha didn't sense Tien's power during those seven years. Yamcha was fully capable of sensing Tien's power, while Piccolo and Vegeta were NOT capable of sensing Gero's power. Yamcha had plenty of chances to feel Tien's power during the Android and Cell Sagas. That was the first time Piccolo and Vegeta ever saw Gero. Yamcha has all the room in the world to know what Tien's power was. Gohan not being able to sense Tien's power at that single moment means nothing more than Tien wasn't training at that moment. Don't try to compare them.

    Once again, you can't take Gero's statement here as proof. Him saying that they were capable of beating SSj Goku was proven wrong several times. Starting to see a pattern? Gero was obviously surprised and worried that Goku was beating the crap out of #19 at first, he even commented about how #19 was going to run out of energy soon. Also, Piccolo crushing Gero (once again, this bit gets brought up again with success) shows that Gero was wrong, or do you actually think that Piccolo could have done the same to SSj Goku? No, he couldn't have.

    I would love to know how my posts "define the word oxymoron" (A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined). An oxymoron would be "little giant", or "deafening silence".

    dexter111344 wrote:
    OneTruePhoenix, you are making it seem as if Gohan is weak. Gohan held his own against every form of Frieza, even when Frieza was at full power! Therefore, you can say Gohan was at either 10,000,000 or 100,000,000. If Piccolo or Goku had been killed, he would have gone Super Saiyan on Namek...


    Gohan fighting with Frieza in his final form was filler. If you'll notice, look at how Gohan, Krillin, AND Piccolo were getting owned by final form Frieza while fighting him at the same time. Gohan was in fact weak when compared to Piccolo, Goku, and Vegeta. Also, Gohan never unleashed any sort of rage upon Gero. He simply attacked him with a normal kick.
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  • Avatar of PrinceVegeta2

    PrinceVegeta2

    [120]Feb 7, 2006
    • member since: 06/22/05
    • level: 13
    • rank: Regal Beagle
    • posts: 3,600
    I don't feel like wasting my time and posting something that you'll ignore. Who am I to force you to accept anything. (You will simply be living in denial)

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/bacon967/dbz%20manga/daizenshuupowerlevels22zo.jpg

    This alone is info enough. The Daizenshuu is official and thus this is full proof.
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