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FOX (ended 2013)

Official Discussion Thread: A Short Story About Love (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of neilwatches

    neilwatches

    [21]Mar 25, 2012
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    historylover20 wrote:


    I don't understand. How does this negate anything that happened before season 4? People don't like that the Amber universe were different characters, now they don't like it when it's revealed that they're the same characters. No one is ever just satisfied.


    If anything, this episode partly retcons the first half of the season, but not the last three years. But, I don't even think it did that. Peter is still the eye of the storm--he has been for the past 3 1/2 years, and he still is. He's the tie that binds everyone together. He was the bind in season 1, and he's still that bind.


    Now, I wasn't feeling the MotW, because I didn't think that story went deep enough. Why was he scarred like that? What was his character doing other than "I just want someone to love me?" But, it does work with the overall theme of the show.


    At heart, Fringe has always been a love story. And one of those loves has returned. We've already had evidence of true love bridging universes: the couple in "3B." Plus, there's the love that Walter had for Peter that he crossed over universes.


    This episode showcased many of the different kinds of loves that we've had in the past, which is absolutely not negated:


    We see the love of a father towards his son. We see the love of the son to his father.


    We see the love between a man and a woman finally coming together again.


    We have unrequited love (Clark Kent Lincoln).


    We have the love that an outside has towards these people--September's people.


    The themes have never changed. It started off with the love a woman had towards a man (Olivia to John) and the love of a father to a son. The only thing that has changed is who that man now is.


    I don't think that anything from the past three years has been negated. On the contrary. Now, the first half of this season--maybe.


    (I apologize if I don't make any sense.)


    Kat



    It negates the last 3 seasons because it means none if it happened. They had very different cases to the ones we saw, as evidenced by the fact that they had no idea who david robert jones was - meaning a whole 3 seasons worth of cases we saw resolved were not resolved, people weren't saved, murders weren't prevented, killers weren't caught, and most importantly, lessons weren't learnt. The character development that occurred through those 3 seasons is now irrelevant for everyone but peter and olivia, the character development that occurred for the half first of this season is now irrelevant for olivia.


    And these are not the same characters - they are only the same in the same way that olivia and bolivia are the same, or walter and walternate. They are the same people who have lived under different circumstances, which have shaped their personalities in different ways. Which means they are now not the same characters we watched develop though 3 seasons, except for peter and olivia. And olivia is now not the same character she was a few episodes ago. It's all completely stupid.


    I don't know exactly where they're going with the rest of this season, but if we don't see a blue intro very soon I'm done with this show.

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  • Avatar of cross_mr

    cross_mr

    [22]Mar 25, 2012
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    :
    She and Walter and Astrid are not the same people I grew attached to and loved for 3 series prior and I find that unsettling. And I don't know how they can go back to that. if at all.


    It's not going to end now, perhaps all of them will get their memories back and perhaps the time line will come back into sync.


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  • Avatar of buildam2005

    buildam2005

    [23]Mar 25, 2012
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    neilwatches wrote:

    historylover20 wrote:


    I don't understand. How does this negate anything that happened before season 4? People don't like that the Amber universe were different characters, now they don't like it when it's revealed that they're the same characters. No one is ever just satisfied.


    If anything, this episode partly retcons the first half of the season, but not the last three years. But, I don't even think it did that. Peter is still the eye of the storm--he has been for the past 3 1/2 years, and he still is. He's the tie that binds everyone together. He was the bind in season 1, and he's still that bind.


    Now, I wasn't feeling the MotW, because I didn't think that story went deep enough. Why was he scarred like that? What was his character doing other than "I just want someone to love me?" But, it does work with the overall theme of the show.


    At heart, Fringe has always been a love story. And one of those loves has returned. We've already had evidence of true love bridging universes: the couple in "3B." Plus, there's the love that Walter had for Peter that he crossed over universes.


    This episode showcased many of the different kinds of loves that we've had in the past, which is absolutely not negated:


    We see the love of a father towards his son. We see the love of the son to his father.


    We see the love between a man and a woman finally coming together again.


    We have unrequited love (Clark Kent Lincoln).


    We have the love that an outside has towards these people--September's people.


    The themes have never changed. It started off with the love a woman had towards a man (Olivia to John) and the love of a father to a son. The only thing that has changed is who that man now is.


    I don't think that anything from the past three years has been negated. On the contrary. Now, the first half of this season--maybe.


    (I apologize if I don't make any sense.)


    Kat



    It negates the last 3 seasons because it means none if it happened. They had very different cases to the ones we saw, as evidenced by the fact that they had no idea who david robert jones was - meaning a whole 3 seasons worth of cases we saw resolved were not resolved, people weren't saved, murders weren't prevented, killers weren't caught, and most importantly, lessons weren't learnt. The character development that occurred through those 3 seasons is now irrelevant for everyone but peter and olivia, the character development that occurred for the half first of this season is now irrelevant for olivia.


    And these are not the same characters - they are only the same in the same way that olivia and bolivia are the same, or walter and walternate. They are the same people who have lived under different circumstances, which have shaped their personalities in different ways. Which means they are now not the same characters we watched develop though 3 seasons, except for peter and olivia. And olivia is now not the same character she was a few episodes ago. It's all completely stupid.


    I don't know exactly where they're going with the rest of this season, but if we don't see a blue intro very soon I'm done with this show.



    The problem with this assessment, though, is that we do have two characters that remember everything that happened: Peter and Olivia. And I refuse to believe--and the Fringe writers have earned my disbelief--that this reset will simply undo the last three seasons. Why? Because this was all very clearly planned from the first season: the beacon that appeared? From one of the first four episodes in the series. There's some kind of overall arc here that the writers have planned out for a while, and I, for one, am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that something very interesting is happening here.

    Plus, Olivia's dilemma--the fallout of which she will have to deal with--of letting these different memories fade in favor of her ones with Peter and the old gang is certainly interesting and complicated. She is actively choosing to let her memories of what she thinks is her real life slide away in favor of the memories of her old life. I find the possibility that Peter and Olivia will have different understandings of the past and have to conform/deal with those differences with Walter and Astrid (and the others) very compelling and creating a lot of interesting possibilities and conflicts. To me, this opens all sorts of doors rather than closing them.

    And I think to say that this turn of events--the erasure of Peter--completely undoes three years of storytelling is a bit short-sighted. Astrid and Walter are, in many ways, very similar to their old selves. The retcon of their personalities allows for commentary on just how important Peter was to them, and how his importance to them varies in many ways. I've noticed Walter becoming more and more like the Walter of seasons 1-3 as Peter has been around; this indicates something about their importance to one another. Astrid's shift has been less noticeable, possibly because she wasn't as close to Peter as Walter was. And finally, I wouldn't be shocked if we do see everyone getting their memories back at some point. Especially if this IS the world of seasons 1-3, altered due to Peter's absence, there's no guarantee that Peter and Olivia won't end up doing something that shifts things back as they were.
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    CharmedOneP391

    [24]Mar 25, 2012
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    Oh wow. I guess every fan wants something different out of Season 4. I was hoping that this was Peter's timeline the whole time and he didn't have to go anywhere. Because you know at the end of the day these are the same characters from before, just slightly adjusted. Everyone's personality is practically the same...it really is not like Olivia/Fauxlivia or Walter/Walternate. I suppose I can understand someone's frustrations. When a show revamps itself like Fringe did at the end of Season 3, there are going to be people who don't like it and people who do. I'm enjoying what Season 4 has to offer and hopefully it comes back for a 5th Season.




    They are answering questions that were unanswered from the first season, Like


    the Beacons being a prison type structure for Observers. That was something I wasn't expecting.


    LOL @ Walter's line when Olivia asked him "Whats Wrong?" -"I'm out of M&M's"

    Edited on 03/25/2012 7:34am
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  • Avatar of Hungry_Homer111

    Hungry_Homer111

    [25]Mar 25, 2012
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    buildam2005 wrote:
    The problem with this assessment, though, is that we do have two characters that remember everything that happened: Peter and Olivia. And I refuse to believe--and the Fringe writers have earned my disbelief--that this reset will simply undo the last three seasons. Why? Because this was all very clearly planned from the first season: the beacon that appeared? From one of the first four episodes in the series. There's some kind of overall arc here that the writers have planned out for a while, and I, for one, am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that something very interesting is happening here.


    Plus, Olivia's dilemma--the fallout of which she will have to deal with--of letting these different memories fade in favor of her ones with Peter and the old gang is certainly interesting and complicated. She is actively choosing to let her memories of what she thinks is her real life slide away in favor of the memories of her old life. I find the possibility that Peter and Olivia will have different understandings of the past and have to conform/deal with those differences with Walter and Astrid (and the others) very compelling and creating a lot of interesting possibilities and conflicts. To me, this opens all sorts of doors rather than closing them.


    And I think to say that this turn of events--the erasure of Peter--completely undoes three years of storytelling is a bit short-sighted. Astrid and Walter are, in many ways, very similar to their old selves. The retcon of their personalities allows for commentary on just how important Peter was to them, and how his importance to them varies in many ways. I've noticed Walter becoming more and more like the Walter of seasons 1-3 as Peter has been around; this indicates something about their importance to one another. Astrid's shift has been less noticeable, possibly because she wasn't as close to Peter as Walter was. And finally, I wouldn't be shocked if we do see everyone getting their memories back at some point. Especially if this IS the world of seasons 1-3, altered due to Peter's absence, there's no guarantee that Peter and Olivia won't end up doing something that shifts things back as they were.


    I couldn't agree more with everything you said here.


    I do agree that it's very likely that everybody will end up remembering their lives in the original timeline. And honestly, I think that would be the best way to resolve everything, as long as they handle everyone else's memories returning in a different way than they are with Olivia's memories. I think they should still remember their new-timeline lives after remembering their original lives. I think that would give the writers some interesting material to work with, seeing how everybody may learn from two lives' worth of experiences. And, if it's just the memories returning, instead of having the whole timeline reset, that would give the writers an excuse to keep David Robert Jones alive so they can explore his story for the 5th season (if there is one...).

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    fladimir7

    [26]Mar 25, 2012
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    I enjoyed the episode, but it's like the show isn't as intelligent as it used be to anymore. I really wasn't expecting this sort of answer to the reason that peter wasn't completely gone is love. It is a dumb and lazy conclusion to a mystery i thought the writers could've had interesting materials to write on but they chose to warp it up with something that i think didn't make any sense at all. The final revelation that this was always peter's world was also dull. I mean i knew all along that it was but for peter and walter after all they've experienced and they never stopped and tried to think about this obvious possibility and that's unbelievable. I still don't even know where they came up with the idea that point out to other timelines, but it's as ridiculous as memory projection or whatever they were talking about.


    Fringe has always thrown crazy theories in the past, but they supported them by a show of demonstration or evidences that would let you believe it is true but now they don't do it anymore. They simply tell you this and that without meaningful explanation, which in turn makes everything look badly stupid. As i thought peter looked stupid with that face of confusion, when September told him the truth.


    I wonder if the show budget wasn't cut in half and not in the verge of cancellation, if they still would have set up season 4 as they have. It's completely different than the other 3 seasons, the stories, and it seems more drama now than it used to be about the science.

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    JaiCSC

    [27]Mar 25, 2012
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    fladimir7 wrote:

    I enjoyed the episode, but it's like the show isn't as intelligent as it used be to anymore. I really wasn't expecting this sort of answer to the reason that peter wasn't completely gone is love. It is a dumb and lazy conclusion to a mystery i thought the writers could've had interesting materials to write on but they chose to warp it up with something that i think didn't make any sense at all..



    I disagree.

    Many fans are coming round to the idea that Fringe is primarily a love story. There's a lot of Sci-Fi don't get me wrong but if you really look at it love has been the driving force to virtually every major event in the story so far and it makes it sense that that is what brought Peter back.

    Also September didn't say, Love brought you back because it's magic. it was more along the lines that it was an unbreakable connection he has with the people he cares for what pulled him through. It's open enough for a scientific component that may come into play later on.
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    apjccjqa

    [28]Mar 25, 2012
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    I just can't agree with people who feel like the first 3 seasons were for nothing, or don't feel a connection with the characters anymore. The first seasons are being pointed to and referenced almost every episode. Last episode the beacon, next episode's case based off the trailer, DRJ being back.. etc. The excitement of this season is that DRJ is here and we finally get to see what his endgame is since peter didn't kill him. Because of that, all the old cases still matter, plus walter/olivia/astrid are all basically the same loveable characters. Just with a little memory loss, I suppose.



    I do think the case of the week was not very good this week. Although I loved how dark it was, there just wasn't enough time to dedicate to fleshing out the backstory because of Peter's story. Speaking of peter's story, it was obviously the highlight of the episode. Learning a little more about the observers, and having peter finally realize that he is home..and that it's time to fix things and give up his futile attempts to get back to his "old timeline". This episode will help propel the next 7 episodes forward to hopefully a great season (and likely series with ratings coming in so low) finale.

    Edited on 03/25/2012 3:51pm
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    BarryWeen3

    [29]Mar 25, 2012
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    Okay...just finished watching the episode.


    First off, I agree that the ending with Peter and Olivia was a bit cheesy.


    Second, the case of the week. Tied in with the overall theme of the episode, i.e. love, Was dark, but I really didn't get the explanation he gave at the end. He says he can smell the love on Olivia and that everyone deserves love. Was he trying to design a love potion so that everybody had a chance to be in love? Or was he trying to find a combination of chemicals that would win back the woman whose picture he kept in that box?


    Third, Walter. As others have said, his watching Scooby-Doo, talking to Astrid about beaver-hunting, he was great in this episode.


    Fourth, the explanation of where Peter was, had that feeling like others that Peter was in his own timeline in his own universe. As for the explanation itself, I can understand it. The connections Peter had formed with Walter, Olivia, and others were strong enough that he couldn't be erased. I don't think the previous three seasons have been tossed aside, they've just been slightly altered. You basically now have a timeline which has two parts to it, the part of the timeline up to the point that Peter was missing and then the part where Peter returns. The part of the timeline that where Peter is missing is why everyone has different memories and events unfolded differently, i.e. RDJ is alive, Nina raises Olivia, etc. And once Peter returned, the timeline may be trying to right itself, i.e. Olivia's conflicting memories. The past 3 seasons happened because Peter remembers them.


    Looking forward to next week's episode where the case of the week looks more interesting than this week.

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    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [31]Mar 26, 2012
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    I thought from the very beginning this was Peter's timeline just with him erased from it as was stated by the Watchers. I don't know why September didn't tell Peter this sooner. Also, I am still a little confused about the timeline of the Robert David Jones character.
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    Don_Moltisanti

    [32]Mar 26, 2012
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    The first seasons are not pointless, they were there to stop the destruction of both universes through Peter. If he had not done what he did both universes would be destroyed and there would be no more story to tell. I think that this show has had this planned since the beginning. The underground device showing up this episode was not coincidence, that was from way back in episode 4. That is why i love this show, all the little things that make it great. It is not mainly about the MotW but the characters that we love. Walter is just the greatest character in t.v, in whatever universe he is in.
    Now from this new timeline we get to see what DRJ was really up to, i always thought the whole "to prove he was special" was not wright. Now we get to see his devious scheme, i am guessing it will be a good one, plus we get a shout out to a season 1 episode next week with the beast story, this was also DRJ, we did not know about this until now.
    I wish people would stop saying they hate the show now and are going to stop watching because they did not like one episode, we have loved this show for 4 years so we should give the writers the benefit of the doubt and let them tell their story and have faith they know what they are doing they have kept us entertained thus far.
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    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [33]Mar 26, 2012
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    Don_Moltisanti wrote:
    The first seasons are not pointless, they were there to stop the destruction of both universes through Peter. If he had not done what he did both universes would be destroyed and there would be no more story to tell. I think that this show has had this planned since the beginning. The underground device showing up this episode was not coincidence, that was from way back in episode 4. That is why i love this show, all the little things that make it great. It is not mainly about the MotW but the characters that we love. Walter is just the greatest character in t.v, in whatever universe he is in.
    Now from this new timeline we get to see what DRJ was really up to, i always thought the whole "to prove he was special" was not wright. Now we get to see his devious scheme, i am guessing it will be a good one, plus we get a shout out to a season 1 episode next week with the beast story, this was also DRJ, we did not know about this until now.
    I wish people would stop saying they hate the show now and are going to stop watching because they did not like one episode, we have loved this show for 4 years so we should give the writers the benefit of the doubt and let them tell their story and have faith they know what they are doing they have kept us entertained thus far.


    Agreed!

    The struggle to get here was all worth it for me. If events that led up to now didn't happen, Peter would not be in the predicament he is in now nor Olivia and Peter would know how important their destiny will be to the future. I think the show is quite clever in how small details and objects from every season are used periodically and also how they make the Watchers seem so much more advanced then humans are.
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    buildam2005

    [34]Mar 27, 2012
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    Don_Moltisanti wrote:
    The first seasons are not pointless, they were there to stop the destruction of both universes through Peter. If he had not done what he did both universes would be destroyed and there would be no more story to tell. I think that this show has had this planned since the beginning. The underground device showing up this episode was not coincidence, that was from way back in episode 4. That is why i love this show, all the little things that make it great. It is not mainly about the MotW but the characters that we love. Walter is just the greatest character in t.v, in whatever universe he is in.
    Now from this new timeline we get to see what DRJ was really up to, i always thought the whole "to prove he was special" was not wright. Now we get to see his devious scheme, i am guessing it will be a good one, plus we get a shout out to a season 1 episode next week with the beast story, this was also DRJ, we did not know about this until now.
    I wish people would stop saying they hate the show now and are going to stop watching because they did not like one episode, we have loved this show for 4 years so we should give the writers the benefit of the doubt and let them tell their story and have faith they know what they are doing they have kept us entertained thus far.


    Ooh, that's a really good point. Whatever DRJ had planned in season one, he didn't get to carry it out because of Peter. But with no Peter, we have DRJ getting to attempt his grand scheme--and probably all of those things that were invovled in season one will start coming to fruition. However, unless I'm mistaken, wasn't a big part of DRJ's motivation the desire to kill William Bell (for whatever reason)? Does he even exist in this timeline, or that of the other universe, or DRJ manage to kill him? That part's a bit unclear so far.
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    BarryWeen3

    [35]Mar 27, 2012
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    buildam2005 wrote:
    Don_Moltisanti wrote:
    The first seasons are not pointless, they were there to stop the destruction of both universes through Peter. If he had not done what he did both universes would be destroyed and there would be no more story to tell. I think that this show has had this planned since the beginning. The underground device showing up this episode was not coincidence, that was from way back in episode 4. That is why i love this show, all the little things that make it great. It is not mainly about the MotW but the characters that we love. Walter is just the greatest character in t.v, in whatever universe he is in. Now from this new timeline we get to see what DRJ was really up to, i always thought the whole "to prove he was special" was not wright. Now we get to see his devious scheme, i am guessing it will be a good one, plus we get a shout out to a season 1 episode next week with the beast story, this was also DRJ, we did not know about this until now. I wish people would stop saying they hate the show now and are going to stop watching because they did not like one episode, we have loved this show for 4 years so we should give the writers the benefit of the doubt and let them tell their story and have faith they know what they are doing they have kept us entertained thus far.
    Ooh, that's a really good point. Whatever DRJ had planned in season one, he didn't get to carry it out because of Peter. But with no Peter, we have DRJ getting to attempt his grand scheme--and probably all of those things that were invovled in season one will start coming to fruition. However, unless I'm mistaken, wasn't a big part of DRJ's motivation the desire to kill William Bell (for whatever reason)? Does he even exist in this timeline, or that of the other universe, or DRJ manage to kill him? That part's a bit unclear so far.


    I thought one of the previous episodes established there is no living William Bell currently in this timeline...assuming my memory is correct...

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    CharmedOneP391

    [36]Mar 29, 2012
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    BarryWeen3 wrote:


    buildam2005 wrote:
    Don_Moltisanti wrote:
    The first seasons are not pointless, they were there to stop the destruction of both universes through Peter. If he had not done what he did both universes would be destroyed and there would be no more story to tell. I think that this show has had this planned since the beginning. The underground device showing up this episode was not coincidence, that was from way back in episode 4. That is why i love this show, all the little things that make it great. It is not mainly about the MotW but the characters that we love. Walter is just the greatest character in t.v, in whatever universe he is in. Now from this new timeline we get to see what DRJ was really up to, i always thought the whole "to prove he was special" was not wright. Now we get to see his devious scheme, i am guessing it will be a good one, plus we get a shout out to a season 1 episode next week with the beast story, this was also DRJ, we did not know about this until now. I wish people would stop saying they hate the show now and are going to stop watching because they did not like one episode, we have loved this show for 4 years so we should give the writers the benefit of the doubt and let them tell their story and have faith they know what they are doing they have kept us entertained thus far.
    Ooh, that's a really good point. Whatever DRJ had planned in season one, he didn't get to carry it out because of Peter. But with no Peter, we have DRJ getting to attempt his grand scheme--and probably all of those things that were invovled in season one will start coming to fruition. However, unless I'm mistaken, wasn't a big part of DRJ's motivation the desire to kill William Bell (for whatever reason)? Does he even exist in this timeline, or that of the other universe, or DRJ manage to kill him? That part's a bit unclear so far.


    I thought one of the previous episodes established there is no living William Bell currently in this timeline...assuming my memory is correct...



    Was that actually said? If so I missed it...I've been under the impression that nothing has been stated about William Bell's status in this revised timeline at all during Season 4. Have I missed something?

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    BarryWeen3

    [37]Mar 29, 2012
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    CharmedOneP391 wrote:


    BarryWeen3 wrote:


    buildam2005 wrote:
    Don_Moltisanti wrote:
    The first seasons are not pointless, they were there to stop the destruction of both universes through Peter. If he had not done what he did both universes would be destroyed and there would be no more story to tell. I think that this show has had this planned since the beginning. The underground device showing up this episode was not coincidence, that was from way back in episode 4. That is why i love this show, all the little things that make it great. It is not mainly about the MotW but the characters that we love. Walter is just the greatest character in t.v, in whatever universe he is in. Now from this new timeline we get to see what DRJ was really up to, i always thought the whole "to prove he was special" was not wright. Now we get to see his devious scheme, i am guessing it will be a good one, plus we get a shout out to a season 1 episode next week with the beast story, this was also DRJ, we did not know about this until now. I wish people would stop saying they hate the show now and are going to stop watching because they did not like one episode, we have loved this show for 4 years so we should give the writers the benefit of the doubt and let them tell their story and have faith they know what they are doing they have kept us entertained thus far.
    Ooh, that's a really good point. Whatever DRJ had planned in season one, he didn't get to carry it out because of Peter. But with no Peter, we have DRJ getting to attempt his grand scheme--and probably all of those things that were invovled in season one will start coming to fruition. However, unless I'm mistaken, wasn't a big part of DRJ's motivation the desire to kill William Bell (for whatever reason)? Does he even exist in this timeline, or that of the other universe, or DRJ manage to kill him? That part's a bit unclear so far.


    I thought one of the previous episodes established there is no living William Bell currently in this timeline...assuming my memory is correct...



    Was that actually said? If so I missed it...I've been under the impression that nothing has been stated about William Bell's status in this revised timeline at all during Season 4. Have I missed something?



    Like I said, I'm basing this on my memory, so that's an iffy proposition...


    So my memory of William Bell being dead in this timeline may have been implanted...

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  • Avatar of MajLorne

    MajLorne

    [38]Mar 29, 2012
    • member since: 01/31/08
    • level: 21
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    Well based on the season1 finale, I think it was assumed DRJ wanted to go to the parallel universe to get to Bell and probably kill him. Either way easy way to not mention Bell since Nimoy isn't going to do any on screen acting. The most we will get from him now is him voicing something.
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  • Avatar of danharr

    danharr

    [39]May 2, 2012
    • member since: 04/30/05
    • level: 45
    • rank: Swizzle-Bird
    • posts: 21,876

    Although love conquers all was a weak cop out. I did like how this is the real universe just different due to Peter being erased. We have Peter and Olivia back and now just have to work on getting Walter sane again. Good resolution so we can move on with the war against the observers now?

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