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FOX (ended 2013)

Official Discussion Thread: Letters of Transit (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of HotStuff1026

    HotStuff1026

    [43]Apr 23, 2012
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    Here's the problem with the whole "Peter never existed and it could have changed things" scenario: Peter never existing would have had NO EFFECT on William Bell's health, or his living or dying as a result of his poor health.


    With Peter being "erased", only things that HE AFFECTED - no matter how small - would have changed. Everything else would have been the same. William Bell died in Season 3. There is NO WAY they can reach back to Season 1, then Season 3, and somehow "change the facts" that he *didn't* die, and is somehow still alive. Just. Not. Possible.


    Yes, the writers screwed up, IMO. Big Time.


    I still don't like the whole Observer Occupation storyline. The technology for them to see the past, present, and future all at once is too great. As someone else postulated, perhaps only those who were sent back as "observers" had it. That still means they have the technology - and thus, they would KEEP it, and keep USING it. It's a huge weapon, especially when they know there is a rebel faction amongst the humans, which they clearly were not wanting (let's assume that based on the description of the 2015 invasion where "...the Observers went door-to-door, pulling people out into the street, killing them." HOW did they know who to kill, and who to let live? By using the same technology they apparently lost and no longer have, for some strange reason.)


    It's like the writers just took everything they'd already written, threw it out the window, and said "gee, I hope nobody notices this."


    Just like with "injecting Walter with a piece of his liquified brain, and it magically re-absorbing and letting him access those areas that were removed." Seriously, I have no problem suspending belief to enjoy a show, but they injected him, and mere SECONDS later, he's suddenly back to his old self? Everything just magically worked, easy-peasy, just like that? *THAT*, by itself, was a jump-the-shark moment.


    Of course, I realize that the writers are trying to stuff as much as they can into the show before it's done. If there is no Season 5, they want the end of Season 4 to be the end-game. But in doing so, they may have made the possibility of no Season 5 a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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  • Avatar of buildam2005

    buildam2005

    [44]Apr 23, 2012
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    HotStuff1026 wrote:

    Here's the problem with the whole "Peter never existed and it could have changed things" scenario: Peter never existing would have had NO EFFECT on William Bell's health, or his living or dying as a result of his poor health.


    With Peter being "erased", only things that HE AFFECTED - no matter how small - would have changed. Everything else would have been the same. William Bell died in Season 3. There is NO WAY they can reach back to Season 1, then Season 3, and somehow "change the facts" that he *didn't* die, and is somehow still alive. Just. Not. Possible.


    Yes, the writers screwed up, IMO. Big Time.


    I still don't like the whole Observer Occupation storyline. The technology for them to see the past, present, and future all at once is too great. As someone else postulated, perhaps only those who were sent back as "observers" had it. That still means they have the technology - and thus, they would KEEP it, and keep USING it. It's a huge weapon, especially when they know there is a rebel faction amongst the humans, which they clearly were not wanting (let's assume that based on the description of the 2015 invasion where "...the Observers went door-to-door, pulling people out into the street, killing them." HOW did they know who to kill, and who to let live? By using the same technology they apparently lost and no longer have, for some strange reason.)


    It's like the writers just took everything they'd already written, threw it out the window, and said "gee, I hope nobody notices this."


    Just like with "injecting Walter with a piece of his liquified brain, and it magically re-absorbing and letting him access those areas that were removed." Seriously, I have no problem suspending belief to enjoy a show, but they injected him, and mere SECONDS later, he's suddenly back to his old self? Everything just magically worked, easy-peasy, just like that? *THAT*, by itself, was a jump-the-shark moment.


    Of course, I realize that the writers are trying to stuff as much as they can into the show before it's done. If there is no Season 5, they want the end of Season 4 to be the end-game. But in doing so, they may have made the possibility of no Season 5 a self-fulfilling prophecy.



    The few seconds it took for his brain matter to help is the moment that jumped the shark? We have no way of really knowing what technology is like in 2036, do we?

    And I'm not so sure about the far-reaching effects of Peter's death in the blue universe. Bell obviously knew Walter relatively well at that point (didn't he?), and we've seen that the season four version of the blue universe is certainly very different from the original, so who's to say that Bell didn't manage to survive as a result? Maybe in this version of things, he found a cure.

    There's also the possibility that something else happened. Perhaps Bell's physical body died and was preserved, and then he did end up taking over Olivia and was somehow transferred into his own body or something. I don't know. I'm willing to withhold judgment until we're privy to the rest of the story, though. The Fringe writers, to me, at least, have certainly earned the right to have viewers have some faith.
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  • Avatar of Hungry_Homer111

    Hungry_Homer111

    [45]Apr 23, 2012
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    Bell didn't die of poor health though. He died of a gunshot, which he got while helping the blue Fringe team retrieve Peter from the red universe. So yes, it is theoretically possible that he could have been brought back to life, just like David Robert Jones and the red universe's Broyles. That being said, according to the transcripts on Fringepedia, in the episode "Novation," the scientist that the one shapeshifter kidnapped to help her, who used to work with William Bell, said "I wish William Bell were alive..." Though I don't think this is necessarily a mistake. There are a few possible ways to get Bell back into the picture. Maybe he faked his death because he has some big plans, possibly to help stop the Observers, possibly to help Jones, or whatever, and not have any opposition watching his every move and putting his plans at risk. Or if he really is dead, you have to remember this if Fringe. Charlie died in season 1, but was back later in the red universe. And like I said, both David Robert Jones and the red universe Broyles died, but are back now. This might not have been the same universe or timeline as we've been seeing in season 4. It might be a combined red/blue universe, and because the original Bell died because of the conflict between those universes, he isn't killed since that conflict isn't there. The fact is, this is simply a glimpse at a possible future. Which future, we don't even know. So who's to say it's impossible, when there is precedent within the show in which a character we've seen die can still come back in another universe or timeline?

    Edited on 04/23/2012 3:54pm
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  • Avatar of MajLorne

    MajLorne

    [46]Apr 23, 2012
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    Actually from the end of season2, Bell's molecular atoms were already unstable and he used himself to power the machine to transport Walter, Peter, and Fauxliva to the blue universe.

    Now I can see Bell as being possibly alive, with Peter being erased and the timeline changed. Peter not existing allowed DRJ to get to the Red universe to 'confront' Bell. It could've been possible Bell found out beforehand and had to escape before DRJ found and killed him.
    =
    Since people have been asking about 1 WTC, yes this is the blue universe unless DRJ did manage to merge both universes and most of the Blue one taking prominence like 7 WTC as the Blue universe HQ of Massive Dynamics.
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  • Avatar of makoi6916

    makoi6916

    [47]Apr 23, 2012
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    It is possible that if DRJ succeeds in collapsing both universes, instead of being destroyed, they would merge instead. Hints to this would be the synchronization of frequencies of people from both universes that whatever happens to one happens to the other. Maybe that's why when Walter's brain got fixed, he was acting badass which is more like Walternate.


    Walter was saying that September told him that in the future, the planet was already wasted so the Observers came back in time to 2015 and started taking over.It's a long shot but what if there was originally only one universe, but when Walter managed to invent the "Device" to get rid of theObservers,it resulted in creating a parallel universe and some time vortices which allowed them to hide the machine parts back in pre-historic times as the "First People". This is due to anticipation that the Observers would try to prevent it from being built in the first place.


    If that is the case, what we saw in Letter of Transit 2036 were the events that transpired in the original unsplit universe.


    Everything we have seen since season 1 especially the ones when the observers are "observing" for important events, they are actually reviewing and finding "weak spots" in order to counteract the effects of Walter's device.


    Now my head is spinning due to allof thistime paradox things!

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  • Avatar of Lccf

    Lccf

    [49]Apr 24, 2012
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    MikeUK123 wrote:


    I'd be surprised is Walter created the alt-universe. Why would he even have been trying to find and a look at it if that were the case? We know in the 80s he could see the alt-universe, before he attempted to create the bridge.




    You're right, whenever the split happened, it was before 1985 - I'll add quite some time before, since by that point the "red" universe had clearly diverged from the "blue" one : they already had cellphones, and of course, blimps roamed NYC's sky ( which makes me think the split had already happened late 19th / early 20th century ). So, we can't blame Walter. But the Observers ... maybe. Maybe one of them "screwed up", like September in Walternate's lab, and caused the split ???



    Anyway, I agree that the sheer existence of the Resistance against the Observers seems to make no sense. Knowing the future, they would have no difficulty squashing any opposition like a bug before it even appears. You'll tell me that the robots in Terminator couldn't kill the Connors even if they knew the future, but it's not the same thing, they didn't know the specifics, the Observers do, since they can pop up anytime, anywhere. You'll tell me that we've seen that the Observers are omniscient and thatan Observer can be taken down anyway, but my understanding is that August allowed himself to be taken down to make the girl he loved important. As for September ... we don't know yet. Maybe getting shot is part of his plan.


    But the Observers poisoning the planet makes no sense either. If you can travel to the future and you know something like that will happen, would you let it happen? Of course, maybe time-travel is one-way and the Observers can only travel to their past and didn't see the catastrophe coming ... and seeing it coming doesn't necessarily mean you'll do something to avert it (I'm not starting a debate about global warming and our response to it, but you know what I mean ...).


    And then, so many things were unusual about the Observers in this episode. That Widmark has a real name and not a codename, that I can understand. Some things could be explained by the fact that the only Observers we've known are a little science expedition, and not necessarily representative of 27th century mankind. But what was weirder, is that these Observers showed some emotions ( lust, cruelty, fear ... ) although they're supposed to be empty of all human feelings and emotions, except in very rare occasions ( August, and a little September ).


    So are we sure these guys were even real Observers ? They could have been, I don't know, aliens posing as the Observers. If I understand things correctly, Observers made contact with present-day Earth some time before the invasion. Maybe some alien race tought "hey, if we say we come from the future and we want to take over because we know better, maybe people will fall in line more easily !", wiped out the real Observers somehow, and masqueraded as them or mind-controled them ( maybe that was what September knew and what had him killed in that future ). OK, now we're back to my "you can't defeat a time-traveler" objection, but what if these aliens are ALSO time-travelers ?


    That, or the writers just "twisted" the Observers to turn them into villains because they needed one and thought it would be more interesting if someone we already knew played that role ...


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    apjccjqa

    [50]Apr 24, 2012
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    We don't know that Bell helped the team cross back over in this timeline. Those who say that couldn't have changed are dead wrong. Because peter didn't exist, the team didn't go over to save him. We know the olivias got swapped, but we don't know how that ocurred. I'm guessing walternate just came over and snatched her instead of peter, and left bolivia behind.




    Also, in the original timeline, peter killed DRJ at the portal. DRJ was on his way to go kill bell if I remember correctly. What if he didn't go to kill bell, but they met up and are working together on this plot to merge universes/fight the observers? And Bell faked his death to work in secret? And their plan puts olivia in danger? This scenerio makes sense to me..

    Edited on 04/24/2012 6:49am
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  • Avatar of MOSTCAPABLEONE

    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [51]Apr 24, 2012
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    Lccf wrote:

    MikeUK123 wrote:


    I'd be surprised is Walter created the alt-universe. Why would he even have been trying to find and a look at it if that were the case? We know in the 80s he could see the alt-universe, before he attempted to create the bridge.




    You're right, whenever the split happened, it was before 1985 - I'll add quite some time before, since by that point the "red" universe had clearly diverged from the "blue" one : they already had cellphones, and of course, blimps roamed NYC's sky ( which makes me think the split had already happened late 19th / early 20th century ). So, we can't blame Walter. But the Observers ... maybe. Maybe one of them "screwed up", like September in Walternate's lab, and caused the split ???



    Anyway, I agree that the sheer existence of the Resistance against the Observers seems to make no sense. Knowing the future, they would have no difficulty squashing any opposition like a bug before it even appears. You'll tell me that the robots in Terminator couldn't kill the Connors even if they knew the future, but it's not the same thing, they didn't know the specifics, the Observers do, since they can pop up anytime, anywhere. You'll tell me that we've seen that the Observers are omniscient and thatan Observer can be taken down anyway, but my understanding is that August allowed himself to be taken down to make the girl he loved important. As for September ... we don't know yet. Maybe getting shot is part of his plan.


    But the Observers poisoning the planet makes no sense either. If you can travel to the future and you know something like that will happen, would you let it happen? Of course, maybe time-travel is one-way and the Observers can only travel to their past and didn't see the catastrophe coming ... and seeing it coming doesn't necessarily mean you'll do something to avert it (I'm not starting a debate about global warming and our response to it, but you know what I mean ...).


    And then, so many things were unusual about the Observers in this episode. That Widmark has a real name and not a codename, that I can understand. Some things could be explained by the fact that the only Observers we've known are a little science expedition, and not necessarily representative of 27th century mankind. But what was weirder, is that these Observers showed some emotions ( lust, cruelty, fear ... ) although they're supposed to be empty of all human feelings and emotions, except in very rare occasions ( August, and a little September ).


    So are we sure these guys were even real Observers ? They could have been, I don't know, aliens posing as the Observers. If I understand things correctly, Observers made contact with present-day Earth some time before the invasion. Maybe some alien race tought "hey, if we say we come from the future and we want to take over because we know better, maybe people will fall in line more easily !", wiped out the real Observers somehow, and masqueraded as them or mind-controled them ( maybe that was what September knew and what had him killed in that future ). OK, now we're back to my "you can't defeat a time-traveler" objection, but what if these aliens are ALSO time-travelers ?


    That, or the writers just "twisted" the Observers to turn them into villains because they needed one and thought it would be more interesting if someone we already knew played that role ...




    Perhaps those Observers in Letters of Transit came from a different point in time in the future where they were still trying to Master time travel. Therefore, they wouldn't know the TOTAL specifics of any past event to squash any resistance group. The other Observers that took away the injured September could have come from a more distant point in the future where they had mastered more time travel technology and became able to see all possible futures.
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  • Avatar of Lccf

    Lccf

    [52]Apr 25, 2012
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    apjccjqa wrote:



    Also, in the original timeline, peter killed DRJ at the portal. DRJ was on his way to go kill bell if I remember correctly. What if he didn't go to kill bell, but they met up and are working together on this plot to merge universes/fight the observers? And Bell faked his death to work in secret? And their plan puts olivia in danger? This scenerio makes sense to me..




    That's exactly what I was thinking : after all, Bell was funding ZFT back in the day, and with Walter destroyed by the loss of two Peters, Bell could very well have turned into a genuine villain and associated with Jones. I kept thinking that despite the fact that Mr Nimoy doesn't want to act anymore ...until Nina said Bell was dead, sure it could be a lie or a mistake,but I don't think we can deduce anything from "Letters of transit" about his current status in the amber timeline, since I suspect the episode takes place in another universe entirely.


    Anyway,I've always had the suspicion someone else was behind Jones, brilliant as he may be on his own ... either Bell, or that mad nihilistic scientist from 2026, Moreau : I mean, next-gen shapeshifters ? a crazy plan that involves endangering or destroying both universes ? That's something that could come from the mind of the leader of the End-of-Dayers, right? I know, Peter prevented the future we saw in "The day we died", but that doesn't mean the End-of-Dayers don't exist anyway in the new timeline, or maybe this future still exists somehow, as a separate universe ???


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    JoshSutton

    [53]Apr 25, 2012
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    This show is nowhere near to running out of juice and it creates so much discussion and theorizing, people have to use their brains for this sort of show yet it's one of the ones like to be cancelled instead of say a teen drama or reality show? Go figure. I have eyes fingers crossed for a season 5anyways.

    Edited on 04/25/2012 2:29am
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  • Avatar of MOSTCAPABLEONE

    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [54]Apr 25, 2012
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    Lccf wrote:

    apjccjqa wrote:



    Also, in the original timeline, peter killed DRJ at the portal. DRJ was on his way to go kill bell if I remember correctly. What if he didn't go to kill bell, but they met up and are working together on this plot to merge universes/fight the observers? And Bell faked his death to work in secret? And their plan puts olivia in danger? This scenerio makes sense to me..




    That's exactly what I was thinking : after all, Bell was funding ZFT back in the day, and with Walter destroyed by the loss of two Peters, Bell could very well have turned into a genuine villain and associated with Jones. I kept thinking that despite the fact that Mr Nimoy doesn't want to act anymore ...until Nina said Bell was dead, sure it could be a lie or a mistake,but I don't think we can deduce anything from "Letters of transit" about his current status in the amber timeline, since I suspect the episode takes place in another universe entirely.


    Anyway,I've always had the suspicion someone else was behind Jones, brilliant as he may be on his own ... either Bell, or that mad nihilistic scientist from 2026, Moreau : I mean, next-gen shapeshifters ? a crazy plan that involves endangering or destroying both universes ? That's something that could come from the mind of the leader of the End-of-Dayers, right? I know, Peter prevented the future we saw in "The day we died", but that doesn't mean the End-of-Dayers don't exist anyway in the new timeline, or maybe this future still exists somehow, as a separate universe ???




    "Letters of transit" definitely takes place in another universe.
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    Binabert

    [55]Apr 25, 2012
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    I listened to The Fringe Podcast today and they mentioned a very interesting theory, the code that Simon uses to get access to Massive Dynamic is actully a date. Unfortunatly I can not remember the exact date but it was a friday in September. Maybe a sign of things to come?

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    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [57]Apr 26, 2012
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    MikeUK123 wrote:

    I haven't seen the Fringe Podcast...... time for a Google....


    @MOSTCAPABLEONE I don't think it was an alt universe, I think it was the blue (or in fact yellow) universe.



    Why do you think that?
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    Chostomo

    [58]Apr 26, 2012
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    HotStuff1026 wrote:


    Also: the Observers are able, via the use of their hat and a device, use any door as a gateway to somewhere else. We saw this, too, in a previous episode. Apparently, they are no longer able to do that.


    The Observers never had this ability. You are reffering to the "Observer-like" agents from the Matt Damon movie "The Adjustment Bureau"


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbVpwsKbFCU

    Edited on 04/26/2012 10:44am
    Edited 4 total times.
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    apjccjqa

    [59]Apr 26, 2012
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    I agree, i think it's our universe. It's just a timeline that may or may not occur, based on what happens at the end of this season. Maybe Peter gets in the machine, sees this future, and makes a new decision or something.



    But the only universes we've really seen are blue & red, and then the new timeline. Right? So why would they show us a future in a different universe? I just don't really see the point, I guess. But who knows..it's fringe.

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  • Avatar of MOSTCAPABLEONE

    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [60]Apr 26, 2012
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    apjccjqa wrote:

    I agree, i think it's our universe. It's just a timeline that may or may not occur, based on what happens at the end of this season. Maybe Peter gets in the machine, sees this future, and makes a new decision or something.



    But the only universes we've really seen are blue & red, and then the new timeline. Right? So why would they show us a future in a different universe? I just don't really see the point, I guess. But who knows..it's fringe.



    In "Letters of Transit", Peter's child was HENRIetta...not Henry. In that universe and timeline he had a girl. In every other universe and timeline we have seen so far, Peter and Olivia/Fauxlivia had a boy. That alone would lead one to believe that we were seeing what happened in another universe and probably why it was so important for Peter to find his Olivia in his universe. I believe each offspring of Peter and Olivia regardless of timeline and universe would play an important role in what direction all futures take. However, it will be our Peter and Olivia's offspring (Henry) that will play the most important part that will transcend all universes and timelines. The Observers have the ability to see and experience all timelines and universes. That's how they knew which Olivia Peter had to have Henry with to have the future that was supposed to and needs to happen. Perhaps in this episode, we were allowed to see one of the other universes the Observer's saw and what could possible happen if the wrong Peter and Olivia are Put together and have a child. It was demonstrated that Henrietta could hide her thoughts somewhat from the Observers. Maybe Henry has even more mind power.

    Another thing, albeit a very minor issue that led me to believe we were seeing another universe was this whole issue about Peter and his revival. I don't remember anything being said in that episode about Walter or Peter being in a different universe other than their native universe. However, they were both trapped in amber??? We didn't use amber in our universe, nor were we familiar enough with its technology to use it. Also, since when did Peter work with William Bell??? With Henrietta, people being trapped in amber, and Peter working with a living William Bell is enough for me to see that this universe is one we have not seen yet...
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  • Avatar of KxGx

    KxGx

    [61]Apr 26, 2012
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    Fringe has been picked up for a 13 ep season 5. In this timeline Olivia was kidnapped. Bell was killed as he helped Peter, Walter and fauxlivia get back home in the original timeline. That did not happen in this timeline.

    In the original timeline peters existence DID cause Bells death. The team were there to bring Peter home. No Peter = no crossing over = no death. It was mentioned that Bell was dead but perhaps it was believed to be. 2015 the year the observers are due to take over is a whole 3 yrs away. A lot can happen in that time!
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    SarmenMichael

    [62]Apr 26, 2012
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    A lot of people are thinking that William Bell pushed Olivia out of the Amber just before it solidified. I was just thinking, if that was the case, Olivia would have been around for Etta. However Etta said she lost her Parents when she was 4.


    Maybe she died soon the rest were Ambered.


    Any thoughts?


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    historylover20

    [63]Apr 27, 2012
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    I'm thinking Olivia was killed, and that bullet that Etta wears around her neck is key. Although why Etta would wear something like that IF it's the bullet that killed Olivia is beyond me. Wouldn't you rather remember something happy about your parents.


    I'm also pretty sure that this is the blue/amber universe. Henry doesn't exist. He ceased to exist when Peter did. However, while Peter came back, he never had the opportunity to be with Bolivia. So, Henry still doesn't exist.


    (Plus, even if Henry did exist, he would be around 6 when his parents disappeared in 2016, not 4 like Etta is. So Etta was born in 2012.)


    Peter knows about Henry because September told him. And Henry was never meant to be. Etta was. Etta is the product of two universes (Red via Peter and Blue from Olivia), and she has special powers from Olivia's cortexiphan.


    There are different reasons why Etta is named Henrietta. Maybe Peter wanted to give his daughter a name to honor the son that doesn't exist. Olivia also has her Blue memories. Maybe she also remembers Henry the cab driver who helped her. Maybe in this "new" blue/amber 'verse, Olivia has a relative named Henry and wants to honor him.


    Now, futures aren't set in stone, as "The Day We Died" showed. This is a possible future.


    But, I'm pretty sure that it's supposed to be set in our new blue/amber 'verse and it's not a different 'verse altogether.


    Kat

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    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [64]Apr 27, 2012
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    historylover20 wrote:

    I'm thinking Olivia was killed, and that bullet that Etta wears around her neck is key. Although why Etta would wear something like that IF it's the bullet that killed Olivia is beyond me. Wouldn't you rather remember something happy about your parents.


    I'm also pretty sure that this is the blue/amber universe. Henry doesn't exist. He ceased to exist when Peter did. However, while Peter came back, he never had the opportunity to be with Bolivia. So, Henry still doesn't exist.


    (Plus, even if Henry did exist, he would be around 6 when his parents disappeared in 2016, not 4 like Etta is. So Etta was born in 2012.)


    Peter knows about Henry because September told him. And Henry was never meant to be. Etta was. Etta is the product of two universes (Red via Peter and Blue from Olivia), and she has special powers from Olivia's cortexiphan.


    There are different reasons why Etta is named Henrietta. Maybe Peter wanted to give his daughter a name to honor the son that doesn't exist. Olivia also has her Blue memories. Maybe she also remembers Henry the cab driver who helped her. Maybe in this "new" blue/amber 'verse, Olivia has a relative named Henry and wants to honor him.


    Now, futures aren't set in stone, as "The Day We Died" showed. This is a possible future.


    But, I'm pretty sure that it's supposed to be set in our new blue/amber 'verse and it's not a different 'verse altogether.


    Kat



    In the last two episodes before "Letters of Transit" ("The Consultant", and "Everything in its Right Place"), Peter and Olivia were together and an established couple. Peter was with the right Olivia from his universe as previously stated by September. So I am a little confused about your thinking that Henry should not exist and Peter never got with Bolivia. "Letters of Transit", should have been chronoligically after "The Consultant" and "Everything in its Right Place" but fast forwarded into the future. Also, Peter was never with the Olivia from the Red universe in this timeline. When he popped back into existence, nobody in the Red universe really knew who he was.

    This is definitely a universe we never saw before where the Observers were walking the evil side, the resistance was failing, William Bell was alive and working with the Fringe team, and the major players of the Fringe team was either dead or ambered.
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