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FOX (ended 2013)

Official Discussion Thread: Letters of Transit (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of KxGx

    KxGx

    [65]Apr 27, 2012
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    MOSTCAPABLEONE wrote:
    historylover20 wrote:

    I'm thinking Olivia was killed, and that bullet that Etta wears around her neck is key. Although why Etta would wear something like that IF it's the bullet that killed Olivia is beyond me. Wouldn't you rather remember something happy about your parents.


    I'm also pretty sure that this is the blue/amber universe. Henry doesn't exist. He ceased to exist when Peter did. However, while Peter came back, he never had the opportunity to be with Bolivia. So, Henry still doesn't exist.


    (Plus, even if Henry did exist, he would be around 6 when his parents disappeared in 2016, not 4 like Etta is. So Etta was born in 2012.)


    Peter knows about Henry because September told him. And Henry was never meant to be. Etta was. Etta is the product of two universes (Red via Peter and Blue from Olivia), and she has special powers from Olivia's cortexiphan.


    There are different reasons why Etta is named Henrietta. Maybe Peter wanted to give his daughter a name to honor the son that doesn't exist. Olivia also has her Blue memories. Maybe she also remembers Henry the cab driver who helped her. Maybe in this "new" blue/amber 'verse, Olivia has a relative named Henry and wants to honor him.


    Now, futures aren't set in stone, as "The Day We Died" showed. This is a possible future.


    But, I'm pretty sure that it's supposed to be set in our new blue/amber 'verse and it's not a different 'verse altogether.


    Kat



    In the last two episodes before "Letters of Transit" ("The Consultant", and "Everything in its Right Place"), Peter and Olivia were together and an established couple. Peter was with the right Olivia from his universe as previously stated by September. So I am a little confused about your thinking that Henry should not exist and Peter never got with Bolivia. "Letters of Transit", should have been chronoligically after "The Consultant" and "Everything in its Right Place" but fast forwarded into the future. Also, Peter was never with the Olivia from the Red universe in this timeline. When he popped back into existence, nobody in the Red universe really knew who he was.

    This is definitely a universe we never saw before where the Observers were walking the evil side, the resistance was failing, William Bell was alive and working with the Fringe team, and the major players of the Fringe team was either dead or ambered.


    Im with Kat, Im sorry historlover but your post does not make any sense to me.

    Henry was the baby of peter and fauxlivia not peter and olivia. As Peter was wiped from existance, when Fauxlivia came to this universe, he did not sleep with Fauxlivia and therefore henry was not concieved. Now Peter and Olivia are together when they concieve a baby it will not be Henry. Its a different time/place. Henry has ceased to exist. They could quite easily have concieved Henrietta already, we also know pregnancies can be sped up (Henry) and she could just as easily have a baby before the end of this season. Season 5 will air in 2012 and therefore henrietta could also be born then making her 4 in 2016. William Bell was shown for a reason, i am certain that Bell is not dead but the team just think he is currently. I reckon its our universe, i dont see why they would show us yet another universe with just 16 episodes left of the series. I have always found the observers menacing and slightly evil, especially the older one. the observers take over in 2015 and lots can happen in the fringe world in three years.
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  • Avatar of MOSTCAPABLEONE

    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [66]Apr 27, 2012
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    [QUOTE="KxGxIm with Kat, Im sorry historlover but your post does not make any sense to me.

    Henry was the baby of peter and fauxlivia not peter and olivia. As Peter was wiped from existance, when Fauxlivia came to this universe, he did not sleep with Fauxlivia and therefore henry was not concieved. Now Peter and Olivia are together when they concieve a baby it will not be Henry. Its a different time/place. Henry has ceased to exist. They could quite easily have concieved Henrietta already, we also know pregnancies can be sped up (Henry) and she could just as easily have a baby before the end of this season. Season 5 will air in 2012 and therefore henrietta could also be born then making her 4 in 2016. William Bell was shown for a reason, i am certain that Bell is not dead but the team just think he is currently. I reckon its our universe, i dont see why they would show us yet another universe with just 16 episodes left of the series. I have always found the observers menacing and slightly evil, especially the older one. the observers take over in 2015 and lots can happen in the fringe world in three years. [/QUOTE]

    Ok. First of all, historylover and Kat are probably the same person. Secondly, how can the baby that Peter and Olivia will conceive not be Henry when September told Peter in "The End of All Things" that one, he would have a son Henry that will be important to things to come, and two, that he was in hismeline and universe with hisivia but that he was just erased from the timeline??? In the last two episodes prior to "Letters in Transit", we see Olivia and Peter together and Olivia starting to remember all of the things that happened to her in Peter's original timeline. They were a couple. This means, in that timeline, eventually, Peter and Olivia had Henry...not Henrietta. September also said that Peter was not supposed to have Henry with the other Olivia. We never saw Peter's child as a female in neither universe or timeline. So how can you believe taht it is possible he had a daughter??? Also, it has almost been the prime directive of the Observers not to interfere...which was what September did inadvertantly. However, in "Letters of Transit" in that universe, the Watchers not only interfered but they took over. Also, Peter was frozen in amber yet amber does not exist in his universe or timeline. That being said, how can that be his universe???
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    historylover20

    [67]Apr 27, 2012
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    Yeah, I'm historylover. Most people know me as Kat.


    And Henry doesn't exist. Here is what the Observer said to Peter in "The End of All Things" (from the Fringe Wiki, but emphasis mine) :


    THE OBSERVER: The war between the two universes drastically altered destinies and brought about a child that was not meant to be.


    PETER: What child?


    THE OBSERVER: Your son... Henry.


    PETER: My what?


    THE OBSERVER: He was born to the wrong Olivia Dunham due to a series of circumstances that never should have happened. This event... would have irrevocably altered everything that was to come.


    PETER: (looks at an image of an infant manifested outside of the viewing platform) Henry. I have a son.


    THE OBSERVER: Had. When you made the sacrifice to step into that machine, you were not the only one who ceased to exist. So would he. I believed at the time that would be the end of it. I cannot explain, but it is clear that I was wrong. You have managed to return in physical form. I suspect... this will provide an opportunity for you to put things right. She is the one... the Olivia Dunham from whom your shared future was meant to spring. This must be, and everything will be as it was intended. You must find a way.


    According to the Observer, Henry doesn't exist.


    Also, why shouldn't Peter and Olivia have a daughter? Granted the sex of a child comes from the father, but we're also talking two different woman. Just because Olivia and Bolivia are dopplegangers doesn't mean that they will have the same child. Even the sex of the child can be different.


    Finally, amber exists in the original blue universe, and there's no reason to think it doesn't exist in the blue/amber universe. Walter created it in "6B." It hasn't been used full scale, because Olivia and Peter managed to close the soft spot in the apartment. But, Walter was ready to deploy it.


    Kat

    Edited on 04/27/2012 7:17pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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  • Avatar of KxGx

    KxGx

    [68]Apr 28, 2012
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    Sorry, I confused myself with names. Im with Kat, it's the other one that makes no sense. Unless it reverts back to its original timeline or he is pulled through like peter, Henry is gone. He was conceived at that time/place. All of the doubles in each universe are exactly the same age therefore conceived at exactly the same time. Unless Peter impregnated both Olivia's at the same time there is no way they could have the same child. Henry would already be here. But as Peter did not exist he did not impregnate either woman at that time/place and therefore Henry never was conceived. I could conceive a child now. If I choose not to and wait the child I conceive tomorrow would be different. I think September just means the child of Olivia and Peter rather than Henry specifically. Peter bore a child to the other Olivia. The wrong Olivia. He needs to have a child with the right one be it male or female. On a side note, amber does exist in this universe. Walter made it. Also they shared a connection with red they could have given it to them. Also, I believe, the universe we saw in letters of transit was a combination of blue/red which is DRJs current plan (rather than collapsing it as the team believe) There are hints to this coffee/twin tower(only one) fringe team and division being mentioned. And I keep saying this but nobody listens! There is still 3 years until the observers take over. 4 years before the team becomes encased in amber. That's three/four years of events we have not yet seen. Lots could have happened!
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    historylover20

    [69]Apr 28, 2012
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    Plus, say no variation of "6B" happened in this blue/amber verse, and the blue/amber 'verse doesn't have amber. That doesn't mean that Walter can't create in since the bridge between the two universes have closed. Like the beginning, soft spots may happen, and they need to be plugged up. Walter knows amber exists. There's no reason to believe that he can't create it in 2013 or 2014. Just because we won't see it in this blue/amber 'verse doesn't mean it won't happen.


    I'm not sure if that was a lone Twin Tower in the background, though. I didn't get a good look at it, but could it be the Freedom Tower?


    Kat

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    KxGx

    [70]Apr 28, 2012
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    Somebody on here said it was a twin tower, I didn't notice it myself. It will give me a good excuse to re watch :-)
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    Hungry_Homer111

    [71]Apr 28, 2012
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    historylover20 wrote:
    I'm not sure if that was a lone Twin Tower in the background, though. I didn't get a good look at it, but could it be the Freedom Tower?

    It could have been. I was really only re-stating what I saw several other people mention, and then forgot to look out for it when I rewatched the episode.
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    MajLorne

    [72]Apr 29, 2012
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    historylover20 wrote:

    Plus, say no variation of "6B" happened in this blue/amber verse, and the blue/amber 'verse doesn't have amber. That doesn't mean that Walter can't create in since the bridge between the two universes have closed. Like the beginning, soft spots may happen, and they need to be plugged up. Walter knows amber exists. There's no reason to believe that he can't create it in 2013 or 2014. Just because we won't see it in this blue/amber 'verse doesn't mean it won't happen.


    I'm not sure if that was a lone Twin Tower in the background, though. I didn't get a good look at it, but could it be the Freedom Tower?


    Kat

    It is the new 1WTC building that's currently being constructed, so basically the Twin Towers were destroyed and thus it is our 'blue universe'. Plus 7WTC is there representing the old Massive Dynamics HQ. As I said before, either this is just the blue universe or both were merged and aspects of the blue one took more prominence over the red.
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    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [73]Apr 30, 2012
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    historylover20 wrote:


    Yeah, I'm historylover. Most people know me as Kat.


    And Henry doesn't exist. Here is what the Observer said to Peter in "The End of All Things" (from the Fringe Wiki, but emphasis mine) :


    THE OBSERVER: The war between the two universes drastically altered destinies and brought about a child that was not meant to be.


    PETER: What child?


    THE OBSERVER: Your son... Henry.


    PETER: My what?


    THE OBSERVER: He was born to the wrong Olivia Dunham due to a series of circumstances that never should have happened. This event... would have irrevocably altered everything that was to come.


    PETER: (looks at an image of an infant manifested outside of the viewing platform) Henry. I have a son.


    THE OBSERVER: Had. When you made the sacrifice to step into that machine, you were not the only one who ceased to exist. So would he. I believed at the time that would be the end of it. I cannot explain, but it is clear that I was wrong. You have managed to return in physical form. I suspect... this will provide an opportunity for you to put things right. She is the one... the Olivia Dunham from whom your shared future was meant to spring. This must be, and everything will be as it was intended. You must find a way.


    According to the Observer, Henry doesn't exist.


    Also, why shouldn't Peter and Olivia have a daughter? Granted the sex of a child comes from the father, but we're also talking two different woman. Just because Olivia and Bolivia are dopplegangers doesn't mean that they will have the same child. Even the sex of the child can be different.


    Finally, amber exists in the original blue universe, and there's no reason to think it doesn't exist in the blue/amber universe. Walter created it in "6B." It hasn't been used full scale, because Olivia and Peter managed to close the soft spot in the apartment. But, Walter was ready to deploy it.


    Kat


    I think If you reread the conversation you included I pasted below, you will see that you are making my point. See my comments in caps.



    THE OBSERVER: He was born to the wrong Olivia Dunham due to a series of circumstances that never should have happened. This event... would have irrevocably altered everything that was to come.



    HERE IS WHERE THE OBSERVER IS CONFIRMING THAT PETER IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE A BOY! HOWEVER, THIS BOY WAS BORN TO THE WRONG OLIVIA IN THE RED UNIVERSE AND THIS EVENT IRREVOCABLY ALTERED EVERYTHING THAT WAS TO COME. ONCE AGAIN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE A BOY, BUT NOT WITH THAT OLIVIA.



    PETER: (looks at an image of an infant manifested outside of the viewing platform) Henry. I have a son. THE OBSERVER: Had. When you made the sacrifice to step into that machine, you were not the only one who ceased to exist. So would he. I believed at the time that would be the end of it. I cannot explain, but it is clear that I was wrong. You have managed to return in physical form. I suspect... this will provide an opportunity for you to put things right. She is the one... the Olivia Dunham from whom your shared future was meant to spring. This must be, and everything will be as it was intended. You must find a way.



    HERE IS WHERE THE OBSERVER IS TELLINGPETER THAT BY STEPPING INTO THAT MACHINE, THE SON HE HAD WITH THE WRONG OLIVIA CEASED TO EXIST. THE OBSERVER GOES ON TO SAY THAT:



    "I suspect.....this will provide an opportunity for you to put things right. She is the one... the Olivia Dunham from whom your shared future was meant to spring. This must be, and everything will be as it was intended. You must find a way."



    HERE IS WHERE THE OBSERVER TOLD PETER THAT WITH HIS OLIVIA DUNHAM AND THEIR SHARED FUTURE, THINGS WILL BE SET RIGHT AND BE AS THEY WERE INTENDED. AS SEPTEMBER STATED HIS SON WAS BORN TO THE WRONG OLIVIA...MEANING THAT PETER WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE A SON, NOT A DAUGHTER. PETER HAVING A SON IS WHAT WAS INTENDED. ALSO, NOW THAT PETER IS BACK, HE HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO PUT THINGS RIGHT...BY BEING WITH THE OLIVIA DUNHAM HE WAS INTENDED TO BE WITH AND HAVINGTHE SON HE WAS INTENDED TO HAVE FROM THEIR SHARED FUTURE. THEREFORE, IF HE IS INTENDED TO HAVE A SON WITH HIS OLIVIA AS A RESULT OF THEIR SHARED FUTURE AND HE IS WITH THAT RIGHT OLIVIA NOW, HOW CAN THERE BE A HENRIETTA BORN OUT OF HIS SHARED FUTURE WITH THE RIGHT OLIVIA???



    THIS HAS TO BE A DIFFERENT UNIVERSE.

    Edited on 04/30/2012 8:44am
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    historylover20

    [74]Apr 30, 2012
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    No, he isn't confirming that Peter was supposed to have a boy. He says nothing like that! He says that the wrong Olivia had a child. And because it's the wrong Olivia, it's the wrong baby! And the way we know it is because Henry is a boy and Henrietta is a girl.


    Kat

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    historylover20

    [75]Apr 30, 2012
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    Also, judging from the preview for the next episode (Friday's episode--May 4), it's looking more and more likely that the universe that we're in is the universe that is depicted in this episode.


    And one last comment before I stop arguing:


    With only 15 episodes left of the season (and the writers and producers didn't even know this when they wrote this episode. For all intents and purposes, everyone thought that there would only be 3 episodes left before the show ended), why would they introduce yet another universe? Separate from the two we've been dealing with for the last 4 years (and, yes, I count this universe we're in now as blue/amber. Peter and Olivia make it the universe that we've followed for three seasons.)


    So you show a possible end game if you do an episode that takes place in the future. Or, judging by 15 episodes left, you point out what will happen, what's inevitable.


    It's highly sloppy writing if this episode takes place in yet another universe when we're so close to the end of Fringe and there needs to be other storylines that need to be finished. Although we have a fifth season to celebrate, it is a shortened fifth season. 15 more episodes, and that's it. If this is intended to be yet another universe, the writers really don't care about their fans or how they want the show to end. And, judging from what I've seen in the last 4 years, that's not very likely.


    One of the first things you learn in a writing class is what Anton Chekhov said in a letter: "One must not put a loaded rifle on the stage if no one is thinking of firing it." Meaning, if you introduce a noticeable plot, then you'd better use it. Another way of saying it is "do not include any unnecessary elements in a story." Introducing another universe at such a late stage is unnecessary, and it leads to plot holes.


    Look at The X-Files for unnecessary plot elements.


    If this show had a full 22 episodes next season, you may be right--this may be another universe. But, when this show was written, it had only three more episodes to wrap things up with (13 extra episodes is kind of a reprieve.


    Kat

    Edited on 04/30/2012 1:40pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [76]Apr 30, 2012
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    historylover20 wrote:

    No, he isn't confirming that Peter was supposed to have a boy. He says nothing like that! He says that the wrong Olivia had a child. And because it's the wrong Olivia, it's the wrong baby! And the way we know it is because Henry is a boy and Henrietta is a girl.


    Kat



    That is not what was said.

    Once again. Here is the quote:

    THE OBSERVER: He was born to the wrong Olivia Dunham due to a series of circumstances that never should have happened. This event... would have irrevocably altered everything that was to come.

    He was born to the wrong Olivia...that confirms that a son was supposed to be born but not to that Olivia. If September said you had a son but was supposed to have a daughter...but he didn't. The only part of the statement he put as not supposed to be is "Wrong Olivia"
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    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [77]Apr 30, 2012
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    historylover20 wrote:

    Also, judging from the preview for the next episode (Friday's episode--May 4), it's looking more and more likely that the universe that we're in is the universe that is depicted in this episode.


    And one last comment before I stop arguing:


    With only 15 episodes left of the season (and the writers and producers didn't even know this when they wrote this episode. For all intents and purposes, everyone thought that there would only be 3 episodes left before the show ended), why would they introduce yet another universe? Separate from the two we've been dealing with for the last 4 years (and, yes, I count this universe we're in now as blue/amber. Peter and Olivia make it the universe that we've followed for three seasons.)


    So you show a possible end game if you do an episode that takes place in the future. Or, judging by 15 episodes left, you point out what will happen, what's inevitable.


    It's highly sloppy writing if this episode takes place in yet another universe when we're so close to the end of Fringe and there needs to be other storylines that need to be finished. Although we have a fifth season to celebrate, it is a shortened fifth season. 15 more episodes, and that's it. If this is intended to be yet another universe, the writers really don't care about their fans or how they want the show to end. And, judging from what I've seen in the last 4 years, that's not very likely.


    One of the first things you learn in a writing class is what Anton Chekhov said in a letter: "One must not put a loaded rifle on the stage if no one is thinking of firing it." Meaning, if you introduce a noticeable plot, then you'd better use it. Another way of saying it is "do not include any unnecessary elements in a story." Introducing another universe at such a late stage is unnecessary, and it leads to plot holes.


    Look at The X-Files for unnecessary plot elements.


    If this show had a full 22 episodes next season, you may be right--this may be another universe. But, when this show was written, it had only three more episodes to wrap things up with (13 extra episodes is kind of a reprieve.


    Kat



    Thanks for the good debate! I will end my participation in this debate by answering your questions and making a comment. One of the reasons why they could have possibly shown that other universe in that episode (Letters of Transit" as I had stated in a previous post, is to show the fans what could possible happen if the Fringe team failed and the wrong child was born. The future for the human race in that episode seem bleak and I wouldn't be surprised if the Observers took over after they saw how dangerous DRJ had become. Also, in that episode, the Fringe team was stuck in Amber. Amber was not used in the Blue universe. That was red universe technology. How do you explain that??? Like this whole thing about Peter finding his way back to his universe and finding the right Olivia, the writers kept the truth about it simple and I had said this from the beginning. Peter was in his universe the whole time with the right Olivia just erased from the timeline. That is the simple explanation which most people was trying to find the hard explanation which I think you are trying to do here.

    Please note that either one of us could be correct, I just think that I am.
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    historylover20

    [78]Apr 30, 2012
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    And I think I am.


    So, at least we can agree that we'll believe what we want to believe, and we'll find out which one of us is correct in around 15 episodes (maybe less.)


    Kat

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    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [79]May 1, 2012
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    historylover20 wrote:

    And I think I am.


    So, at least we can agree that we'll believe what we want to believe, and we'll find out which one of us is correct in around 15 episodes (maybe less.)


    Kat



    Agreed.
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    Canada_Michael

    [80]May 1, 2012
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    Why assume Henrietta is Peter & Olivia's only child? Didn't the blue side develop amber technology when they thought their universe was breaking down like the red universe? It the episode with the apartment building where the woman thought she was talking with her dead husband.
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    MOSTCAPABLEONE

    [81]May 2, 2012
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    Canada_Michael wrote:
    Why assume Henrietta is Peter & Olivia's only child? Didn't the blue side develop amber technology when they thought their universe was breaking down like the red universe? It the episode with the apartment building where the woman thought she was talking with her dead husband.


    The assumption was based on the timing as seen in the opening credits when the year was given (2015) and it was stated to be the year the Observers took over and confirmed when Henrietta spoke on the last time she saw her parents. Also, the blue universe never developed amber as they never fully understood its technology.
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    CharmedOneP391

    [82]May 14, 2012
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    Especially with Season 4 now complete this definitely seems like Fringe's version of Dollhouse's 'Epitaph One', yes?


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    BarryWeen3

    [83]May 15, 2012
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    CharmedOneP391 wrote:


    Especially with Season 4 now complete this definitely seems like Fringe's version of Dollhouse's 'Epitaph One', yes?




    I agree. And good Dollhouse reference.

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    danharr

    [84]May 22, 2012
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    Not a surprise JJ Abrams likes to do it big didn't see Observers as fascist from the future. All this just to save themselves in the future now does at some point the future become good if they're successful or does the future stay the same while changing the past.

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