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This discussion is for comparisons of the sex scene in the book and the show, between Cersei and Jamie beside the body of their dead son, (Joffrey).

Please keep the discussion on topic, and try to avoid non relevant spoilers - I know it may be difficult not to talk about the impact of this scene on book characters, but please try.

Game of Thrones is a show where people do terrible things, but so are the books.
Previously there have been slight changes between the books and the show.

The books have the advantage of letting the reader know a characters thoughts, motivations and reactions.
The shows can't really do this and also some parts will never make it to screen because of time issues.

But in my opinion they changed the scene completely - and I am at a loss for why.

Here is the scene in the book:

She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”
There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.


And it is clearly consensual sex.

The scene on the show was rape.

The director of the episode, Alex Graves, left no room for misinterpretation in an interview with The Hollywood Reporter:

"This is so dysfunctional and bizarre." She's a wreck. Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go, "He's kidnapping her only boy," because she's not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her. That was like -- you read the scene and go, "Wait, who's directing this?"

He also explains why Joffrey is in the scene

Why was it key that Joffrey was in the scene?
"He is their first born. He is their sin. He is their lust, and their love -- their everything," says Graves. "If he's gone, what's going to happen?"


You can read the entire interview HERE

George R.R. Martin did address the scene in a blog post about an upcoming event:

Re: Jaime's changes in Breaker of Chains
This is off topic here. This is the section for comments about Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the Cocteau's author program.

Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply... but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that. I do not want long detailed dissections and debates about the TV series here on my blog.

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

Now, if you please, I'd appreciate it if we could get back to Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the subjects of the original post.


(via grrmlivejournal.com)

As he says, the scene could have been different if they at least kept some of the dialogue from the book, and Jamie wouldn't be seen in such a bad light - the weird thing is, this leaves the viewer with consensual incest being the good thing about their relationship, (which is pretty f*cked up)

Considering the fact that the TV show had done a solid job of highlighting that Jamie had changed and that their relationship was broken by their time apart, the show didn't need the rape scene to steer Jamie's plot in the same direction it takes in the books.

In my opinion it was either done for shock value, lazy writing or to speed up Jamie's plot so they can concentrate on others.
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What bothers me most about this discussion, is all of the people trying to accuse the writers of nefarious motives without our having heard ANYTHING from them about why they chose to depict the scene as they did. Some of it is bordering on personal attacks.

One thing people are forgetting in all of this: unlike all of us, Dan and Dave actually know how Jaime's and Cersei's storylines are going to progress. George has already outlined the fates of most of the major characters.

So, for all of those accusing the writers of writing Jaime out of character, isn't it just possible that they know this character -- and where he's going -- better than they do?

Is it possible that Jaime's story is NOT a redemption arc?

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Personally, I don't see it as a redemption arc as young adult audiences conceive a redemption arc, but as a mature tale of changing perspectives:
  • The disgusting incest from an outsider's perspective
  • The cocky rookie from Ser Barristan's perspective
  • The loser old knight from Joffrey's perspective
  • The man without honor from Catelyn's perspective
  • The man that saved King's Landing from Brienne's perspective
  • The kingslayer from Ned's perspective
  • The devoted big brother from Tyrion's perspective
  • The murderous cousin from Ser alton's and Lancel's perspective
  • The obstacle from Locke's perspective, etc
Jaime being all of the above, no side denied by the other but all integral parts of the same person.

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I don't see it out of character, I see it as the character that Jaime was at this point on the books should he have been in King's Landing by this point on the show.

At this point on the books, Pia had already initiated sex with him too but Jaime stopped ir because, according to his POV he already had a woman. At this point on the show, Pia never existed, so Jaime has sex with the only woman he had ever had sex with.

At this point on the books, Loras has already joined the Kingsguard, Joffrey was killed on his watch and the engagement to Cersei never happened, because "when the sun has set, no candle can replace it". At this point, on the show, Loras is stuck with a stepson he loathes, a fiancee that hates him and a brother in law who warned him should he dares to father Cersei's children.

At this point in the books, Tywin is still trying to offer Jaime to marry Margaery so that Tommen wouldn't have to marry her, Jaime is clearly upset by the whole thing which leads to their fallout, not the conflict we've seen the episode before this one.

At this point on the books, Cersei is still not disgusted by Jaime, she hasn't sleep with one of the Kettleblacks nor Talena, and she has already poisoned Lancel so he would not "talk". At this point on the show, Lancel is MIA, there are no Kettleblacks or Talena.

So this is the Jaime that would've been, should he have severed tied with Tywin long before he did, had a quarrel with Loras that he never had as long as Brienne was caught in the middle, had never met Pia, nor felt rejected by Cersei. Its still the same person, the conflict is still the same, Tyrion is still in the same - if not bigger - danger.
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I'm quite upset that this scene is causing so much uproar, compared to Dany's rape. Now that, was traumatic in every sense of the way :
- rape from a stranger
- rape as first sex with a particular person.
- rape as first sex experience
And how the show just brushed it under the carpet and made her fall in love her rapist about two episodes later. (the books version is actually believable).

Now Cercei,
- already knew Jaime
- already had sex with him
- was not a virgin.
So the potential for PTSD is WAY less, not that it won't cause a rift between them.

And Jaime ? He's done MUCH worse, but somehow this scene is getting everyone up in arms ?

Jaime has done worse, Cercei has been through worse (with her late husband), why is everyone so upset NOW ?
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My point is: Why is no one upset about Tyrion?!

His death is the payment Cersei expected once she initiated the encounter and the payment she's entitled to demand now that Jaime actually went along with it.

First Bran and now Tyrion, one over Jon Arryn's corpse and the other other Joffrey Baratheon's. If Jaime does this murder he hasn't learned anything.
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Because you're wrong.
Cersei is not trading her body for Jaime's murder. She is not manipulating her brother with her evil vagina. The two things are not connected. Cersei didn't ask Jaime to kill Bran, she just freaked out that he saw them together and that was Jaime's immediate reaction. And she had nothing to do with Jon Arryn's murder, so I really have no idea what you're going on about there. Cersei does not expect Jaime to murder Tyrion as 'payment'; she also did not initiate the sex, SHE WAS RAPED. She expected that Jaime would WANT to murder Tyrion, because she is so convinced of his guilt she assumes Jaime must be equally convinced (and that he would want vengeance for his murdered son). She doesn't have sex with Jaime to control him, she has sex with Jaime because she loves Jaime -and in this scene, she doesn't even consent to sex, Jaime rapes her. Your analysis of this scene is completely wrong -nobody's talking about Tyrion because it's not about Tyrion.
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Well, Dany's rape pissed me off a lot, too. The books version is much more believable, yes, though for both it comes off (to me at least) more as Stockholm's Syndrome than love. Drogo is not a good guy, he does not treat Dany well, he's just somewhat less abusive than her brother was.
But I don't think it's fair to compare rape in that way. Cersei was raped, it doesn't matter the circumstances. Consenting once does not allow continuing consent -her having consented to sex with him before doesn't mean she therefore always consents. And I disagree that this is less traumatic; she is being raped by her brother, her lover, the person she considers her other half in a very literal sense, the person she trusts most in the world, the person she views as her safe place, as her protector.

I agree that Jaime trying to kill Bran is bad, but... I don't know about 'worse'. From his perspective at least, he was trying to protect his love, his children, to prevent the war that would have been started had Bran run and told Ned (who would have run and told Robert); the fact that this led to the outbreak of the War of 5 Kings is not Jaime's fault, nor could he have predicted it. Killing Aerys is the thing he's most vilified for, in-universe; but it was arguably his most noble act (though he's a f*cking idiot for not telling anyone about the stashes of wildfire hidden around the city). More importantly, right now Jaime wants to redeem himself, his honour, his sense of self-respect, and he would not accomplish that by becoming a rapist. Jaime despises rapists; he recalls feeling sick that he had to stand by and let Aerys rape Rhaella, he wanted to kill Robert for what he did to Cersei, he risked his life to protect Brienne from rape, he tells her he would rather die than be raped, he punishes the men who raped Pia, etc. Jaime despises rapists, and THAT is why it's out of character and doesn't make sense from a plot perspective. They just threw this in to be shocking... apparently a brother & sister f*cking on an alter next to their son's dead body wasn't shocking enough? It just demonstrates that the showmakers don't understand the characters.... or consent.
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I didn't say that it was consensual , just that there are worse things to be upset about. Yes, *if* she still sees him as her other half, trusted protector, it could lead to major trauma... or not. We'll have to see in the next episode.
Maybe him acting out of character is because his *character* is actually falling apart ?
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The only reason everyone is angry with the scene is that we all want to like jamie. It was ok when he was an incestuous, child murderer but rape?

we all just want to root for jamie. we saw potential for love, honor, glory and traditional happy endings. he is kind of the "hero-ish" character of this story. That is till they bump him off in some other colored wedding.

its game of thrones people!!!! They are all ethically challenged (to put it mildly) All of them have done ugly things. They are all criminals. No redemption for anyone.

............... And now, lets bring out the dragons.
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Actually, the reason I'm angry is because Cersei is missing the most obvious suspects:

  • Tywin - he was clearly happier with Tommen than Joffrey and he's already plannig to marry him to "a good woman".
  • Oberyn - who just warned Cersei about Myrcella just moments before Joffrey would drop dead.
  • Brienne - I love her but it looks pretty suspicious that Joffrey is dead and Sansa is gone.
  • Ser Loras - who just hated the mockery of Renly's death at the feast and didn't even liked his future stepson.
  • Lancel - Damn if Joffrey wasn't going to kill him once he knew about the affair with Cersei. He got Robert killed with wine, he obviously could've done the same to Joffrey.
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Tywin -did NOT murder Joffrey, would never murder his own blood, was simply making the best of a bad situation. From Cersei's perspective, she trusted her father implicitly because unlike Tyrion he had never tried to hurt her or her son.
Oberyn -wasn't threatening Myrcella, was talking about what the Mountain did to Elia on Tywin's orders. That was a not-subtle threat to Tywin, not to Joffrey -he wants justice for his sister, and Joffrey hadn't even been born yet when she was murdered. Still, Cersei might have suspected him if not for Tyrion.
Brienne -not about to murder a child, and Jaime vouched for her honourability. Thus Cersei doesn't like her, but doesn't suspect her.
Loras -his sister just married Joffrey, his family needs the alliance with the throne. And he was upset, yes, but not murder-upset, and at any rate murder by poisoning is not a crime of passion (it requires planning ahead, thus Loras doing this because he got his feelings hurt at the dwarf show is not a believable motive [besides which, Joffrey was actively humiliating Tyrion, the dwarf show was MEANT to upset & humiliate Tyrion, if anyone would be motivated to kill Joffrey because of the show it's Tyrion]).
Lancel -WAY too scaredy-cat to kill Joffrey. All he did to Robert was get him drunk, the boar did the rest. WAY different from putting poison into the drink.

Besides which, none of those people ever touched the wine goblet. Tyrion did. None of those people ever struck Joffrey; Tyrion did. None of those people ever threatened Joffrey; Tyrion did. None of those people threatened Cersei; Tyrion did. Tyrion IS the obvious suspect. While we, the audience, know he didn't do it, Cersei doesn't, and that's the point. It's the same deal as when Cat arrested him for Bran -he's completely innocent, and we know that, but the grieving mother is convinced of his gui only Cersei, unlike Cat, isn't held back by fear of invoking the throne's wrath by executing Tyrion.
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Tywin would murder Joffrey in a heartbeat should he threatens his legacy and, from what it looked like, he did threaten his legacy.

If I was actually looking for the murderer Tywin would be the first one I would interrogate after the scene with Tommen. Only if I just wanted Tyrion dead I would've let that one slide.
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No, no he wouldn't. Tywin believes that 'a Lannister is worth more', and went to war to get back the son he despised because doing otherwise would make the Lannisters look weak. Just as allowing Joffrey to die in that way makes the Lannisters look weak. Besides -Joffrey WAS his legacy. He was his golden grandson the king. Even if he were to kill Joffrey (which he might if in a few years Joffrey proved intractable) but certainly not in that way, on that day. That day was about proving Lannister power, Lannister superiority; it was as much a celebration of their victory over the North as it was a celebration of Joffrey's wedding. Having Joffrey die, publicly, painfully, in front of everyone makes them look impotent, not superior. Tywin would never have done that.

And again -from CERSEI'S perspective, it would never occur to her to suspect her father, because she not only trusts him, she desperately needs to believe she CAN trust him, he's one of her only allies. Yes, that speech hurt her feelings, you can see how much it hurt her to hear her dead son maligned -but she let it slide because she knew that Tommen did, indeed, need to be taken under Tywin's wing, that he needed to respect & heed his grandfather if he was to hold the throne longer than his brother did.
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Tywin would murder Joffrey in a heartbeat should he threatens his legacy and, from what it looked like, he did threaten his legacy.

If I was actually looking for the murder Tywin would be the first one I would interrogate after the scene with Tommen. Only if I just wanted Tyrion dead I would've let that slide.
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Part of what makes me angry is that it's a sadly common trope in TV, to attempt to make a woman character more likeable/sympathetic by having her be raped. It cancels out all of her strength and agency to try to turn her into a victim. In this case, ignoring that she was *already* a rape victim (Robert) and ignoring the fact that it's completely against both of their characterizations and makes little sense plot-wise.
Yes, Jaime is an awful person, but not to Cersei. Cersei is an awful person, but not to Jaime. They don't hurt each other. And at this point in his narrative, Jaime is attempting to redeem his honour, or at least his own self-respect -this is the opposite of that.
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Correction he was an ATTEMPTED child murderer in a CONSENSUAL incestuous relationship. For some people the fact that Bran didn't die made is forgivable and the fact that it was consensual made his relationship with Cersei icky but not horrible. Now people see him as downright horrible.
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Don't speak for me: I see Bran as unforgivable whether he died or not, and incest disgusting whether its consensual or not.

No capital letters is going to change that much.
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Of course there is a difference in circumstances leading up to the 'deed' between the books and the show as GRRM pointed out, so I'm not surprised they handled it differently. Cersei rejected Jaime in the show and maybe there is no way she would have consented, even being in an emotional state, even when she wanted something from Jaime. Yet in that position if she hadn't consented I think it's believable that he would have raped her, and that's the more important point. Because of that possibility I don't agree that the change is a shock tactic.

It's possible that Cersei will now see Jaime in a more positive masculine light. Maybe they'll even switch back to 'on again' mode. But like most people watching this I felt that a lot of damage was done to Jaime's character in this scene.

The writers may have backed themselves into a bit of a corner here. They decided that Jaime and Brienne would reach Kings Landing well before The Purple Wedding to simplify the story. They clearly wanted Cersei and Jaime to still copulate for the first time since his return in this scene, otherwise one of the most memorable scenes from ASoS would be wasted. So they made up some stuff about Cersei losing interest in Jaime and probably seeing him as a pitiful cripple. That made up stuff then affects the sex scene and might end up causing more issues than it solves.
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If there's any difference from the books is that it didn't look like Cersei and Jaime had sex once she saw him without a hand.

From what it looks like, Cersi didn't initiated anything with him until the moment she wanted Tyrion dead.
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In the show she clearly said no. I'm not sure how you can see that as initiating.
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I'm talking about her whole reaction to maimed Jaime. On the books, Cersei doesn't show her repulsion until later on, when she's already sleeping with the Kettleblack borthers.

On the show, she is already disgusted by Jaime, if only because he's already been in King's Landing for awhile and she doesn't like to see his arm.
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No, actually, Cersei hasn't touched the Kettleblack brothers yet at that point. She only reacts negatively to Jaime's maimed hand after Jaime rejects her, in the White Tower -when he says that having sex with her their would be dishonourable, would sully the Kingsguard tower. She's hurt and says that to hurt him back. I suspect they're going for a similar thing here -Cersei being cruel because she's upset, they're just terrible writers and haven't shown what she's actually upset about.
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What really piss me off about this all thing is that if the writes of the show can go this off track and say screw the books I will do my own thing this is a tv show not a book than they could have changed other things like having robb survive the Red Wedding or even have Ned Stark still be alive
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It's clear they (the authors of the show) will have to finish it on their own, they may as well take some liberties while they still have a book references.
You go a little bit to far, with your suggestions tho :)
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....You're missing the point, on both of these things. Ned and Robb HAD to die, from a narrative standpoint; the story is more about the Stark children than the Stark adults. Sansa, Bran, Arya and Rickon are all on 'bildungsroman'-type story quests; coming-of-age stories. Robb's coming-of-age story was over, and he was the last protector-figure for the other children. They need the other children to not have that protector figure, to be on their own, for the rest of their stories to make any d@mn sense. In the same way that Harry Potter NEEDED to be an orphan, Ned and Robb and Cat NEEDED to die.
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Ned and Robb didn't have to die they could just as well be in prison or badly injured or be thought of as dead and come back later.This does not interfere with the other stories.It is simply G.G martin wish to kill and give us the shock factor by killing the beloved heroes.It may work in the books because you don't care as much about the characters as you do on tv
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Ned had to die for one simple reason: the whole war is based on Robb trying to avenge his father.

Now, Robb on the other hand, I'm not sure he really had to die for the war to be over. He just had to for Bolton and Frey to get what they wanted.
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No, but like... Sansa wouldn't run off with Littlefinger if Robb was alive. Arya wouldn't be traipsing around with the Hound if Robb was alive. Bran & Rickon would want to find Robb if he was alive. They can't go on their adventures when it would make more sense for them to be like 'no, take me to my family, my big brother & my mother who would do anything to protect me'. The story is not about Robb, not about Ned, not about Cat; it's about Arya, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon (at least the Stark storylines).
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It is a total betrayal of Jamie's character. Jamie HATES rape, he hates rapists, he would never rape anyone, let alone Cersei. Jamie recalls feeling sick having to stand by while Aerys raped Rhaella; he punishes the men who raped Pia; he risks his life to save Brienne from the possibility of rape, and he states that he'd rather die than be raped. Jamie is NOT a rapist. Yes, he does many despicable things; rape is not one of them. He'd also never hurt Cersei that way -he's all about protecting Cersei; he pushed Bran out a window to protect Cersei. And now he's insulting her, calling her hateful, and raping her? F*ck no, that is NOT Jamie.
D&D clearly don't understand the books or the characters they're portraying here -or how consent works.
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in this PC tv
you can show a major male character as a rapist
but you can never show a major female character as one who sleep around and uses sex to manipulate man to do what she wants

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Except that Cersei does exactly that -just not to Jaime. She does it to Lancel and others, but not Jaime.

And... how exactly is this 'pc'? It's one of the most racist, sexist shows on the air tbh.
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If you read just a few chapters in the book you see the show sugar coat the story for our modern pc tv
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WTF are you talking about? I've read all of the books. The show is way worse, way more racist, way more sexist, way more classist. It sugar-coats the ableism a little bit I guess -but it also has Drogo rape Dany (where in the books it's consensual), turns the Dothraki into a monolothic, savage, barbarian stereotype, turns the subtle, intelligent Dornish into over-sexed killers with zero subtlety or planning or finesse, makes rape pretty much constant, makes all the slaves brown people (where in the books slavery is more like Roman slavery, not based on race at all) being 'liberated' by their white saviour Dany, whitewashes constantly with the exception of Xaro Xhoan Daxos who it makes black and also makes a villain instead of neutral, and at the same time the show doesn't depict the slavery existing in Westeros, whereas in the books it's illegal but happens anyway (Arya becomes a slave in Harrenhal; Iron Islands have slaves), apparently because slavery is for uncultured brown people.... I could go on all day. No, this show is not PC by any means -and fwiw calling something PC is incredibly lame, like saying 'but why can't I be a racist @sshole? People hurt my feelings by telling me when I'm an @sshole! Freedom of speech means nobody can call me out on my bullsh*t right?!?'.
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I haven't read the books and I'm not a Jamie fan (he is interesting but I wouldn't call myself a fan) and it seemed fitting (not surprising) that he raped his sister since this is the guy that tried to kill Bran. So he helped out Brianne (sp?…I probably have the entire name wrong but the tall female knight who is not on the best dressed list) but that just made him not be a one dimensional comic book villain (100% bad). Maybe he didn't find Brianne as sexually attractive as his sister (yes, I know rape is about power and not just sex).

I never understood all the Jamie fans and figured it was book thing…or maybe it is as simple as the actor is good looking and the character is interesting and not 100% "bad".

insightful: "and Jamie wouldn't be seen in such a bad light - the weird thing is, this leaves the viewer with consensual incest being the good thing about their relationship, (which is pretty f*cked up)"--that is fucked up
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Brienne
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wow, I was only off by an "e". I am glad it wasn't something like Jennifer or Annie;-)
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Speaking only for myself, I think the change only endangers the situation for Tyrion:
  • The last time Cersei slept with a relative to ensure a murder, Lancel got Robert killed.
  • And the last time Cersei asked Jaime to kill for sex, Bran was saved by a miracle.
No matter how fast Tyrion urged Pod to find Jaime, he already got too late. So, the next time we see the Lannister brothers, we won't know whether Jaime is going to kill Tyrion or not.
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...but Cersei DIDN'T ask Jamie to kill Bran. She got mad at him for doing that, thought that Bran could have been convinced to be silent and that hurting him just made the situation more dangerous.
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Cersei got mad that Bran wasn't dead but in a coma, which is a huge hint that what she wanted was for Jaime to kill him.

And we still don't know whether Cersei ordered the hit on him the night of the fire 4 seasons ago.
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What? So now your argument is that Cersei is manipulating Jaime to kill Tyrion -in the scene that she was raped by Jaime - because a) she manipulated him to kill Bran -which is incorrect and for it to be correct you would have to completely change the order of events, from 'Jaime & Cersei have sex; Bran sees them; Jaime's immediate reaction is to push him out a window' to 'Cersei decides (why?) that she wants Bran dead; has sex with Jaime, telling him that he must kill Bran; Jaime tries to kill Bran', and b) because the show might possibly change things so that Cersei is responsible for Jon Arryn's death.
Do you even realize how ridiculous that argument is?

You're also ignoring the reality that Cersei genuinely believes Tyrion is responsible, and also that Jaime raped Cersei so none of this could possibly be Cersei's plan.
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Well... in the books we know who did that, but I won't spoil you. And Cersei's point was that Bran in a coma is the worst possible outcome, because it builds suspicions and tensions and because that's not something the Starks would ever forgive. Her point was that trying and failing to kill him is much worse (for them) than killing him, which was already idiotic because he could have been reasoned with but now cannot.
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I read the books so I already know, but much like Daario or Joffrey's funeral it could still change on the show
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As others have suggested, I think the change was done for two reasons: 1) to make a rift between Cersei and Jaime (which is highly relevant to the follow-up of Joffrey's murder) believable and 2) to highlight how Jaime's frustration with his current state of physical impotence (i.e. the hand) will destroy him if he can't overcome his current situation
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For some reason, I don't think the hand plays into this as much as it did on the books...

I do agree, however, that Jaime feels impotent: either to protect Tommen, to find out who did this to Joffrey and to protect Tyrion.

And I do like this rift with Cersei better than the one provoked by the "She has been fucking Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moonboy for all I know" line which leads to the revelation of the lie to Tyrion.

I would rather Tyrion to die than to find out this time around.
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On the scene itself I have to admit it was evidently nothing tasteful but the shock value is pretty much in line with many other violent/sexually explicit scenes. I believe the explanation and arguments for the change really lies in the timeline difference.
The scene, in 10 minutes, has addressed 3 important changes that happen so quietly in the books that it would have been impossible to distil this information slowly and subtly on TV

- Jaime & Joeffrey vs Cercei & Joeffrey: In the books Jaime doesn't care about Jeoffrey and certainly doesn't consider him as his son. Apart from the distance and time away, the lack of feeling from Jaime towards the kids this is one of the main dissension point between C & J and she starts hating him in part because of that. We've seen it slightly in the series, with this scene happening next to Joeffrey's corpse, we clearly establish that Jaime simply doesn't care at all about Joeffrey.

- Cersei + Jaime = Over: We have time in the book to see Cersei's disdain for Jaime turn into hate and he certainly takes a long time acknowledging it and renouncing her. For a long time their relationship is unbalanced, Jaime still wanting her while she tries to keep him at bay. Cersei plays a little game of maybe / maybe not trying to use Jaime as long as she can. All this happens during pretty uneventful times in the book and given the pace at which we're going I guess we would just not have had the time to elaborate on how she came to hate him and how their relationship ends. Well now it's done! We've established his wanting and her not and how this will break them.

- Queen Cersei --& someone's daughter/sister/mother: I'm not so far ahead in the books so I'm not sure how this develop in the long run. But the demise of Cersei is slow in the book. Inch by inch she loses control. She goes from the Queen who sometimes manipulates men with sex and rule King's Landing, to being a daughter who'll be sold to her next husband at the 1st good deal that comes around. She's losing all power, the men have taken it back, not even with a fight but just because they're supposed to be the rulers. There's a feminist streak in Cersei, she finds it unfair that she cannot rule and be considered like a man. We see her lose the battle of power scene after scene in the books, it is all condensed in this scene in the series. She's lost her 1st son, her 2nd one is in the hands of Tywin, she's managed to lose Jaime as well and is really now reduced to the most powerless a women can be.
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I'm thinking the scenario has changed too:

  • On the books, Jaime missed out on Joffrey's murder therefore he couldn't know whether or not Tyrion was guilty. On the show, Jaime saw the whole thing and knows Tyrion isn't guilty, so Cersei wants him dead just because.
  • On the books, Cersei didn't know Jaime was alive or dead until he showed up at the funeral, so she treats him like a whole man. On the show, a lot of time has passed and Cersei is already disgusted by his presence unless he does what she wants (use a gold hand, leave the King's guard, kill Tyrion, etc.)
  • On the books, Brienne was a prisoner on a tower not a guest of the bride side, Jaime never adressed to Sansa as his sister in law, Brienne never met Tyrion but Podrick and much later on.
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I'm so fucking annoyed of this and so many comments I've read so far really baffled me, but here's my take on why Weiss and Benioff did what they did:
First of all I personally think that the only reason for this outrage is the puzzling ambiguity of that scene. You can show a rape more clearly and a consensual passionate sex also - there is a way to see it in different light somehow but overall it was not perfectly done and I saw it as a forced sex=rape too. That causes confusion on top of the grossness forcing people to deal with their inability to cope with both. Or is it because of it happened to respected and beloved Cersei? My answer clearly is aimed at the confusion of the change of the source material, and why it made sense to me in an instant.
The rift between the Lannister twins evolves gradually in the books and like GRR explained the different situation of their meeting in Kingslanding and the shorter visit of Jaime created a different set-up in which Cersei seducing Jaime would not make that much sense. The development of Jaime and Cersei's alienation as described in the books took even for my taste too long, making it somewhat tedious. Jaime's chapters in which we read his thoughts is hard to adapt, if not completely impossible. He visits different places in the ongoing war against Riverrun and it takes some spaces of the fourth book, so in order to speed up things and to create the possibility to spare out complete passages like Jaime visiting pious Lancel with all his *yawn* confessions, and other stuff, I guess the idea came up to put in some sort of an extreme reaction charged with another level of guilt and shame shortly after Joffrey's assassination. It's not inexplicable: Jaime feels isolated and impotent and helpless against the impending changes, in this situation he thought she felt the same and so he started to shag his sister, the only way she once taught him to find solace and love. I hardly doubt that Jaime saw Joffrey as something else as furniture in the moment, he didn't care much for Joffrey before and the way Joffrey looked at him and their talk in the tower of the kingsguard... ouch. But he also didn't care a second for Cersei it was not the same and so it let to the rape.
In order to completely assess the impact this scene has or not has on the show, or better the story and characters we know and love from the books let's wait and see and meanwhile enjoy/suffer through as many rapes as we can get - this is GoT for the seven's sakes.
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To be fair, this thread has been the most adult conversation we've had of the scene since the whole thing started.

So, whether we agree or not, I'd like to thank Grumpy for this outlet.
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Amen.
If it wasn't for Grumpy and the general laid-back attitude here I wouldn't have written anything at all.
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Ta
BUT YOU'RE STILL WRONG AND I'M RIGHT!
NA NA NEE NA NA
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NO NO NO NO NO I DISAGREE WITH YOU ALL! YOU'RE ALL WRONG, NOW JUST SIT THERE IN YOUR WRONGNESS, BEING WRONG! YOU'RE ALL WRONG AND I'M RIGHT!

I think it helps that a bit of time has passed since the episode, but thanks for the acknowlegement
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This was a lot less well done than it could have been, but the thing we should take away here is, that Cersei and Jaime don't work. She has been a bitch all over and he hates her. (Maybe even more so in the light of the recent events with Brienne)
You also might thing about it as fighting the terror of loosing his hand. That he is trying to get back to a time where he had her and his hand and everything was good...but the world is not at that point anymore... Which would be pretty well imaged by raping his sister.

...well thats a sentence I didnt thing would ever make sense when I was 12..
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I agree with you....Things weren't the same since Jamie came back, Cersei wasn't the same, part of her was rejecting him...she has moved on... As for the non consensual sex ( I hate the word rape...Cersei is no victim here) , it was hate sex or punishment of some kind. Cersei just brings out the worst in Jamie.

As for the differences from the books, I think it is given that some changes would be there for several reasons- ratings, limitations of episodes , people's favorite like Jamie and Tyrion are given more screen time or to gain more viewership from the book readers. People know till book 5 and the show is still at book 3 so some changes are welcome.
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Are you effing kidding me? Yes, it was rape, and yes, Cersei is therefore a rape victim. She's a nasty, bitter person, but that doesn't maker her not a rape victim. H*ll, she was already a rape victim -Robert raped her and abused her for years. And non-consensual sex is the definition of rape -anyone who disagrees is frankly terrifying.
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Do you really see Cersei as a person who would let anybody rape her.Robert never did. He was always drunk and she would finish him off in different way. She told that to Ned herself.

The reason she is not the victim is because there are real rape victims who would have suffered worse, It undermines real rape.
This is a show. No one cried rape when Drogo forcefully took Dany.
There are memes stating most passionate love story started with rape.My point is there are people out there who have seen worse domestic abuse and here we are defending a fictitious one.

As I have read other comments from book readers and other people, she just was scared of getting caught and/or she didnt want to do it in that place.
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Are you kidding me? Yes, Robert raped her many times. She also says that there were times he was drunk enough she couldn't do that, and in those cases she'd 'drink moon tea' so she wouldn't be impregnated by her rapist.
FYI, being forced to engage in oral sex is also rape.
And... 'let' someone rape her? Are you like not aware of how rape works? There's no 'let'. Under Westerosi law, Robert had the right to have sex with her whenever he wanted -and he was the king. She couldn't have stopped him.... other than by having him killled... which, oops, she did.

She IS a 'real' rape victim. Trying to distinguish between what you consider 'real' rape undermines rape victims. Please stop victim-blaming -and yes, Drogo and Dany's wedding night was in fact rape, and it bothers me that they changed that from the books where Drogo was slow & careful to ensure she consented. Not the point; the point is, Cersei most definitely WAS abused by Robert.


Yes, in the BOOKS she simply didn't want to do it in the church, but quickly changed her mind and consented. That's not what happened in the show, though -THAT was rape.
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This is a good point, Cersei wouldn't kill a man herself, but she'll ne damned if she let someone rape her.

She wanted to have sex with Robert, her wedding night was humiliated because he wispered Lyanna's name, not because she didn't want him.

How could a woman, that willingly slept wit her cousin, that willingly kept a lover her whole marriage, and planned to seduce any man but Stannis should they conquer King's Landing, do anything other than what she wanted?
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noone is disagreeing with rape.... and nonconsensual sex is the same thing.
point is there was a reason to it as far as the story goes. It could have happened rather than: it is completly made up by the TV writes
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I think people are overreacting a bit. From our point-of-view Jaime did rape Cersei, but we have no idea what went through Cersei's head at the moment. She could have easily said no because of the location and not because she didn't want the sex, and we don't know if this scene will be addresed in the next episode. I'm not against the show changing scenes like this as some other book readers are, and I don't believe it was just for shock value. And to those who say that the scene undid Jaime's development or redemption, I disagree with you. Jaime has always been a bad person, he has sex with his sister and threw a child out of a window for christ's sake, just because we got some insight on his character last season does not undo any of his crimes. I believe the show knows what it's doing and they have the right to change anything they deem necessary.
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thet must be editing it right now
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In the books, she said no. He continued. That's rape. Justify however you want. But that doesn't change the fact that it's rape.
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No, in the books she said no until he kissed her neck. Then she said:
“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. JaimeJaimeJaime.” Her hands helped guide him.“Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

That's explicitly consensual. What happened in the show is explicitly rape.
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She said no. He persisted. All of that was AFTER she already said no.
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Yes. He said no and he kissed her more. Kissing=/=rape. THEN she said yes to sex and in fact helped him into her. That's not rape, that's clear and enthusiastic consent. Yes, he should have stopped kissing her -and fwiw I think he would have stopped if she had continued to say no, because Jaime is not a rapist, Jaime despises rapists, it's not at all in his character to rape.
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davidhhamburger, I AM a woman. And while it's sort of skeevy for Martin to write it that way, I do believe it's supposed to be consensual -she's not objecting to having sex with him, she's objecting to doing it THERE. Martin's basically writing her to be the 'convince me' personality -which I agree is dangerous, I hate the trope that women say no and mean yes, but seeing as he's including details like her kissing back, her moaning, her objecting 'weakly' (as if she's saying it perfunctorily, not passionately, not like she's frightened of HIM but like she knows it's inappropriate)...I do believe this is consensual, given what she says I don't think she's 'trying to lessen the violence' I think she truly wanted to sleep with him. It is unfortunate that Martin wasn't clearer about Cersei's consent -he should have written her consent coming sooner -but to me, it's pretty clearly consensual. I HATE that Martin wrote it with a skeevy 'blurred lines' vibe, but I don't think that's trying to show her truly not consenting -and I do believe that if she'd been clearly saying NO in a firm, rather than 'convince-me' way, and hadn't said yes eventually, Jaime would have stopped -that's just his character, he protects Cersei and hates rapists, and unlike in the show he isn't trying to hurt her or insult her, he never calls her hateful, he isn't doing this angrily or to overpower her.
Also, we do get Cersei's POV later, and she continues to think of Jaime as her protector, her true love, the one who would never hurt her... while she does have a tendency to repress, with everything else she represses we see it coming around the edges of her narrative whereas there's never any indication she feels violated by Jaime; later on she feels rejected by Jaime, but never violated.
What's making me angry is not only that they f*cked up Jaime's character and narrative arc -which they did -but also that once again they tried to take away all of a strong female character's agency by having her be raped, and the niggling fear that this was done to make her 'more sympathetic'.
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No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.


This wasn't just a kiss.
-- He kisses her multiple times after she says no.
-- He throws her on the altar, pushing up her skirt.
-- She pounds on his chest! I don't think you can get more clear about "NO" than that!
-- She gives multiple reasons why they should not do this, trying to reason with him to stop.
-- He rips his clothes off and throws her legs apart.
-- He rips her underwear off.
-- He's JUST about to enter her
-- When she gives in and says what you quoted.

That's HARDLY just a kiss.

At the VERY least, it was sexual assault. You can't reasonably argue that forcibly kissing someone, throwing her onto a table, throwing her legs open, and ripping her underwear off isn't sexual assault.

If she hadn't said anything, it would CLEARLY be rape.

Do you think that there's any chance that at that moment, with both of their underwear ripped off and him on top of her inches from penetrating her that he suddenly would have stopped?!?

Come on. That was rape.

Do me a favor. Read that list I wrote to ANY woman you know, and ask her if she thinks it's just fine, sexual assault or rape. Better yet, read it to a lawyer! You know what answer you'll get.

Then ask her (or the lawyer) if it's no longer considered that if she consents AFTER all of that, and they have sex. Again, you know what answer you'll get.

And have you considered that she only said those things later to make the rape less violent and less painful and to get it over with? She already clearly has experience with dealing with sexual assault from Robert. We'll never know her true feelings, because the scene is from his point of view.

All we know is that she said no and then he sexually assaulted her and clearly was going to rape her. If you want to believe that her consent after all of that was a true consent and excuses all of it, I guess that's your opinion. To me, it's still rape.

So, if people want to think that someone sexually assaulting someone is still just a fine activity for a redemption arc, I have to feel that's pretty twisted.

The point here is that everyone is going crazy over Jaime's personality and the redemption arc they fantasize for him being RUINED by this scene in the show. But he's already an attempted child murderer and someone who at the very least sexually assaulted and tried to rape his sister. We can argue about whether or not her verbal consent AFTER being sexually assaulted keeps it out of rape territory.

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Actually, in the book it was more consensual than the show.
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Cersei clearly said: I want you yo kill Tyrion. Kill him for our son. And I can't stand he is alive.

Just because she didn't want to sleep with Jaime in front of Joffrey, doesn't change her goal was clearly to sleep with one brother so that he would kill the other.
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No. Cersei is not manipulating Jaime with her evil vagina. She wanted Jaime to kill Tyrion not because they were f*cking, but because she genuinely believes that Tyrion murdered their son, and expects Jaime to want the same revenge she does.
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No. Cersei is not manipulating Jaime with her evil vagina - this sentence made me smile
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I agree. I think the argument that Cersei telling Jaime to kill Tyrion because she's obviously grieving and not thinking clearly has nothing to do with "using her body" to get men to do what she wants. I'm just a TV watcher, and haven't read the books yet, but based on only what I've seen in the show, Cersei hasn't so far "used her body" to get something out of anyone.
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This isn't about who killed Joffrey, but Tyrion breathing where Joffrey isn't.

Cersei is not looking for the actual killer: she just wants Tyrion dead. Jaime wpld have more luck with Tywin finding the guilty (and even then I'm sure he'll bring the killer to justice or The Small Council).
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Cersei suspect Tywin? Definitely not. Cersei trusts her father implicitly. She is desperate for his approval, she wants to BE him. And Tywin wants an heir, one who is not a dwarf or unable to inherit because Kingsguard, so he'd hardly kill his grandson, the king. Tywin believes 'a Lannister is worth more', he would not harm his own blood and Cersei knows that. As for Loras, he was upset by the show but not enough to murder -besides which the show was a surprise, and killing by poison requires foreplanning (like bringing the poison to the party). She might have suspected Oberyn, were it not for Tyrion; but she is absolutely convinced her little brother is guilty. (If you read the books, you'll see that this is absolutely true, and learn one more reason why.) She wants him dead because she thinks he murdered her child and threatens her other children, and herself. She doesn't just randomly hate him, she views him as a murderer and a threat to her children, whom she loves more than herself.
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No, Cersei genuinely believes that Tyrion did it. And it does look bad -Joffrey was poisoned, most likely by the wine, and Tyrion was his cup-bearer, was holding his wine goblet, was out of sight with it for at least a minute there. Add that to the ableism of Westerosi culture -the belief that those with physical deformities were 'marked by the Gods' to show that they were evil, similar to beliefs in our own history our even the more modern Mormon belief that black people 'bear the Mark of Cain'- and you can see how many people would believe he did it. Cersei especially, since they've always had a nasty relationship, and while we the readers/viewers know Tyrion's not capable of this, he did in fact threaten her children at one point, and did his very best to seem capable of anything.
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If I esa Cercei I would've suspected ir Tywin first, given his disposition at the funeral, my future husband second, given how Loras wasn't too happy about the show, and Oberyn, given his warnings about Myrcella

Tyrion? She just wants him dead.
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I'm pretty indifferent to the rape scene, we know they are siblings in an incestuous relationship and its a TV adaptation so I expect changes. Was it merely gratuitous? I can't say because I don't now what else is coming up that has been tinkered with.

Since Banshee, I no longer agree that you can't convey a characters thoughts and feelings. They are doing a stand-up job of exactly this.
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My problem with the rape is that from a plot point of view its unnecessary - they already established the rift/change in their relationship, the choice to change the scene to a rape scene damages the connection the audience had with Jamie
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I get what you mean, as it seems like the redemption of his character has been aborted but all he really has going for him is his looks. Incest, Kingslaying and attempted murder of children aside; he's not a particularly likeable character. It's only in relation to Brienne or Tyrion that he displays any admirable qualities. For me you summed it up with; "the weird thing is, this leaves the viewer with consensual incest being the good thing about their relationship, (which is pretty f*cked up)" He's just too damaged to be repaired.
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The only connection this would damage is between Tyrion and Jaime: how do you think Tyrion would react should Jaime come to kill him?
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I'm sure Tyrion would feel betrayed.

How do you think Tyrion would feel if he knew Jamie raped Cersei.

A lot of the audience saw good things in Jamie - as does Tyrion.
But as a general rule, no one sees any good qualities in a rapist.
Any speeches Jamie now makes about oaths, morality or honor are tarnished by the fact that he raped Cersei.

Their incestuous relationship had seemingly been accepted by the audience, his time in captivity, his relationship with Brienne, his admission as to why he became the kingslayer, all made him seem like he was a flawed, but good man (who was in an incestuous relationship with his sister).

This character development is tarnished because the writers decided to make it a rape scene.
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A "flawed, but good man" who tried to kill a child.
The fact that he didn't succeed doesn't change that fact.
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The inherent joke here is arguing that Jaime's character is tarnished because he raped his sister when he usually just sleeps with her. It's f**ked up!
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Cersei's goal was to get Jaime to kill Tyrion all along, she just wanted to wait until he actually did it to do it, which is why she initiated the encounter in the first place.

Not to mention, Tyrion is more than aware his days are numbered as soon as Cersei sleeps with Jaime, or else he wouldn't have urged Podrick to get his brother as soon as possible.

If Tyrion finds out Cersei & Jaime had any kind of sexual encounter, this would only make him feel one way: dead.
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Like many of my fore-commenters I don't get why this caused such an uproar. It's neither the most uncomfortable scene to watch nor the most shocking - especially it's not that much different from the books.

I just rewatched the scene - Cersei makes the first move and when Jaime supposedly (according to the whole internet) rapes her she repeatedly says "It's not right" which is right along what she's about in the books. Now who says that if they are truly being coerced instead of, dunno, scream or, say, scratch out some eyeballs. Just grasping at straws here.
Furthermore, as I said on Tim's review, her sobbing might be over the loss of her child and Jaime's hand - remember, this is the first time she has showed emotions since, like, forever.
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Not that I actually heard any sobbing, but Cersei was clearly frustrated that Jaime didn't have sex where she wanted him to have sex with her.

She clearly initiates the encounter with the promise to finish it once Tyrion is dead, I expect Cersei to be more than upset should Jamie not murders Tyrion the way she demanded him to murder Bran three seasons ago.
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True - but if you change the words "It's not right" to "Not here" a lot ambiguity is taken out of the discussion
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Does the reason she said no really matter? SHE SAID NO. He persisted. That's rape -- in both the book and the show.

Frankly, what's the difference between the two statements? It seemed obvious to me that "It's not right" was referring to the "Not here" aspect of it. They were in a CHURCH. Next to their DEAD KID'S BODY. Of course, that's "not right". "Not here", at least. Anyone who's the least bit religious would have said that in those circumstances, even if the hottest person in the world was trying to seduce them.

No means no. Whatever her reasoning, whatever his motivations, no still means no. Which makes it rape in both scenes. In the books, many readers allowed it, because they want to love Jaime, and because she obviously did want it. But that's the flaw in US. And it doesn't change the fact that she still clearly said no.
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If there's no difference between the novel and the TV version then what is there to talk about? The fuss is about the latter being a change from consensual to coerced for the sake of sensationalism. If that's not the case, this discussion is pointless.
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I thought it looked like it always does: Cersei offering sex only if Jaime - Lancel in season 1- would kill someone.

In this case, that someone would be Tyrion, the very brother Jaime fought a war, and got captured for. So he engages in intercourse, in front of Cercei's son to make the point how wrong it feels (to kill their brother).

I'm not mad it happened, I'm mad Jaime hasn't said whether he will kill Tyrion or not
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I agree She only uses her body to get people to do her biding
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I'd say Cersei uses men - particularly her male relatives - to do her bidding, the fact that she "pays" them with her body only makes it worse it my eyes.

I'm beginning to think the only reason she hates Tyrion is because she can't control him any more than she can control Tywin.
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So... are you saying that it makes it okay that she was raped?
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She wasn't raped. Her cries of 'no' were meant to be 'not here'. It was a direction error. Viewers misunderstood what was being portrayed. Some of the book readers understood. It was little exaggerated for television purposes. Think again about Cersei's character, I dont believe she would let her self be a victim. As for Tyrion, he sees her as she is i.e manipulative and cunning. Jamie is navie or blinded by her love.
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How is it childish to point out that whether she "used" someone to get something done or not, she didn't deserve the rape? This article isn't about whether or not she can or can't control Tyrion. It's about the use of a rape scene where there was none in the books.
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Seriously, I thought we were done with these childish arguments: either you disagree Cersei used Lancel to kill Robert, Jaime to kill Bran or the next Lannister to kill whoever she wants to or you don't.

Either you disagree she can't control Tyrion or you don't.
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I'm mad at the fact that Jamie's character development was damaged by an unnecessary scene that seems to have been done for shock value
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Isn't that only because you want to like him, and thinking of him as a rapist makes that harder for you? I think that this statement of yours really gets to the heart of the problem with people's complaints about the changes in this scene.

It's clearly rape in the books. SHE SAID NO. Period. The reason doesn't matter. She said no.

But because you like Jaime, and enjoyed his character development -- aka redemption arc -- anything that interferes with that redemption bothers you. So, you gave him a pass in the books when he raped her. With the scene on TV, it's a lot harder to give him that pass.

And THAT is what bothers you. You can't pretend he's totally redeemed any more.

It will be interesting to see how fans will react when one of the prophesies in the books about Cersei comes to pass.
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Firstly, in the books its a lot more consensual, which is why I included the passage in the post.
But to give you a quick recap -

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair.

The "do me now" part kinda clinches it for me. Or the "yes, like that,"

Secondly, turning Jamie into a rapist does damage his character redemption arc - in fact it may nullify it some viewers eyes (not mine, as I've read the book and see this scene as an unnecessary short cut to skip some of the dull excess from the book - so I blame the shows writers).

No one said he was fully redeemed, but the suffering he went through in the last season did seem to change him.
However any good will he garnered is lost in favor of either shock value or a cheap writing bypass.

Thirdly, the prophecy's - I am going to keep this vague, to keep spoilers from non book readers.
I think the circumstances of one will garner Cersei some sympathy and the end result of the other will please a lot of people.

If you are going to comment on stuff from the books that haven't turned up on the show yet, please keep it vague for the benefit of others


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You've conveniently started your quoting from AFTER she said NO. And after he persisted AFTER she said no.

“No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.


So, to clarify:
She said no.
He kissed her again, repeatedly.
He throw her on the altar and lifter up her skirt.
Still no consent.
She POUNDED ON HIS CHEST.
She talked about risks and danger and the gods -- all of the reasons that SHE DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE SEX THEN AND THERE.
He undid her breeches, pushed her legs apart, tore her underwear off.
ALL WITH NO CONESENT, and after she said no and even explained why.

Whether she changed her mind after he started raping her, or whether she was just saying it to get it over with (something she's clearly had a lot of practice with) is irrelevant.

SHE SAID NO.
HE PERSISTED.
THAT IS RAPE.

Even if she genuinely consented at the end (which is far from clear), at the very least, it's sexual assault.

And yes, I've read the books. That was my reaction when I read the scene.

So, it was actually George RR Martin who "turned him into a rapist".


Who says that his arc is actually a character redemption arc? Only those who WANT IT TO BE. George RR Martin himself has said that all of the characters in his books are shades of grey.

And, for the record, he has also said that not all of his narrators are reliable. So, it's also possible (and maybe even likely) that she never actually said all of that, but he was imagining it, because he WANTED her to say that.
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Who in the show is not sinned... Even Ned cheated, the most honorable character...Jon snow broke his vow, so did Robb. They all did in the name of love so why not Jamie,

No human is without sin. According to me there is no good or bad just different shades of grey.

Off Topic: This show really defines us as a individual. Makes us think. see our own demons. Makes it a part of our lives. Second series which makes me feel so strongly about.
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@lawson -Sin is a sin. Find my other comments, read to see how I look at it... one is right above few posts


@david - I haven't read the books but I read about the theory which I dont understand. So send a message me to enlighten me. I don't mind spoilers.Thanks
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But having consensual sex with someone despite a vow is not the same thing as raping someone.
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Well, I'm not so sure that Ned actually cheated.... ;-)
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Jaime's character is only damaged if he proceeds to kill Tyrion in exchange of sex. He would be doing what Cersei wanted, even if he didn't sleep with her where she wanted to.
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You don't think Rape tarnishes his character? Seriously?
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So, you don't think the scene tarnishes his character
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I don't either. people do crazy things in love. I am still pro-Jamie. I think this act was a beginning of Jamie seeing how cersei really is- a hateful woman.
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I don't.
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It's the exact same scenario as Bran's: the only way to tarnish the charcater is if Jaime harms Tyrion because he just had sex with Cersi.
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Good article.
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Thanks
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I don't really understand why people who are WATCHING Game of Thrones are complaining about this rape scene.

First off let me say this because some people might not be wise enough to understand, I don't condone rape. Rapists and Child molesters are the worst kind in this world we live in. Now back to my point.

Why is this so upsetting?
I mean from the very first episode there is attempted child murder, beheadings and incest. So you do actually see right from the beginning what kind of show this is and in what kind of a world it is.
Not that it really matters but by all the usernames I see complaining, its mostly women who complain about the "rape scene". But no one complains about Theon?
Was there this much complains and controversy when we see Theon Greyjoy being tortured? And getting his wiener cut off? Which is in my opinion even a worse scene because we see him being tortured and yelling and crying and so on.
Did people complain this much when they showed the scene when the shrink got raped in Sopranos? which was way worse! (And in sopranos they didn't do much of these violence that they do in Game of Thrones) So you should pretty much expect uncomfortable scenes. Or stop watching seriously.

I don't want to get into details of "was it rape or consensual" because either way I'm discussing something disgusting and wrong. I'll just say, The shrink in Sopranos acted like she really got raped (with all the screaming and crying) still is a fu#### up scene. While Cercei well… I leave it unsaid.

Either way, people don't complain about Theon when he is burning children and hanging them but starts a riot online when there is a "rape scene"?

There is so much; Incest, beheadings, whores being shot by arrows, child murders, attempting child murders, NED starks head on a pike, torturing, Weiners being cut off. And a lot more. And now is when everyone gets upset?
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I have sat here and gone through all the reviews (for a better choice of words) about this episode. what I can't understand is the rant (again for a better choice of words) about the rape as many people have said and as Omidad has said attempted child murder, beheadings and incest and in season one rape plunder and pillage but yet nothing until now, WHY ?
For myself all I saw was the death of the so called king jeff and at the end of the day it's a show i would expect uproar if the show was a reality show (not that there anyway real). if GoT upsets people then don't watch it it's that simple you have a choice.
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I blame Brienne, her connection is so profound is bound to feel like Jaime's been cheating on her
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For me the rape is not the issue - and I know that sounds bad, but this is GoT we are talking about, evil deeds are common place - the fact is that most of the evil done in the show happens for a reason.

They changed the scene for no good reason and in doing so, changed how we look at Jamie as a character
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I totally agree with every word.
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It is not the rape itself that is upsetting because it is Game of thrones
and rape upon thier on a weekly basis
What is upsetting is the fact that Jamie was the rapist
a character which they worked so hard to redeem last season
speackning as a tv viewer it is stupid and speacking as a book reader it is even more stupid
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If thats the case, then yes. But I've read some articles on some pages which they state the rape itself was the issue. I totally agree with you that the fact that they changed it from the books was unnecessary . But they have changed a lot of things though. And most of the articles and complaints have come from people who hasn't even read the books. Which they even stated in their article and posts.
If the fact is that people are getting upset over that scene because of what you said. Then its understandable. But I haven't noticed that thats why they have gotten upset.
The post I wrote was directed to those people who watch the show and then just complains because of that specific scene and says "they went too far".
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If they can changes things so much than they could have changed the red wedding and have Robb and Catelyn live
or better yet have Ned stark live
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For me, what really upsetting is that no one considers Cersei is demanding Tyrion's life in exchange for this, she still is.
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For pete's sake, she didn't say 'kill him and I'll f*ck you'. The two were disconnected in her mind -and she DID NOT initiate, despite what you keep saying. She was RAPED, that's pretty definitively not initiating. It's not an 'exchange'. Even if she hadn't consented it wouldn't be an 'exchange'. She isn't trying to manipulate him, she just expects that he would WANT to avenge their son. The two things are not connected in her mind... only in yours.
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They could have made it clearer
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She literally said: I want you to kill Tyrion. Kill him for our son and I can't stand yes alive were spoken too.
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True, but they could have made it clearer if she said during the sex
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He is instead of yes
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I fucking hate these "Start making cash right now" comments. Argh! I was in awe of my 15 notifications that I got during work (because I am an attention... prostitute). Half of them or more were these ridiculous spam messages.

But on the subject: I seriously thought that they were just going to omit that scene. Jaime has been back for weeks now and Cersei has shown her coldness towards him so I figured they were going to omit the scene. Or make Cersei be the one who initiates it out of sorrow. But that was just argh... If the showrunners make changes when adapting the books, they should atleast be consistent with them.

Like the great Gurm said: "that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead."

I always figured that Cersei wouldn't have given her consent if it wasn't the first time she saw Jaime in months? or a year? But sure... Whatever. The show has managed to hurt Stannis' character as well..
I feel like this is going to hurt Jaime's redemption arc a lot for those who only watch the show.
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"I feel like this is going to hurt Jaime's redemption arc a lot for those who only watch the show." - which is exactly my problem
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I had a huge comment that I was going to post on Tim's review but since it was heavily about the above mentioned scene I'll post most of it here.
Well well well the whole book vs show deal is in full affect! There have been changes here and there but last night's was HUGE! Was it necessary for character development I don't think so. It was done to shock not just show watchers but book readers as well! Probably to make us book readers enraged because we aren't surprised by anything that happens. I'm actually not that upset about this addition they have made.
Rape is rape no matter how you spin it. It terrible and wrong. What's also wrong is having sex with your TWIN! It's all wrong! Like Grumpyclown mentioned above " the weird thing is, this leaves the viewer with consensual incest being the good thing about their relationship, (which is pretty f*cked up)". The consensual sex in the book is uncomfortable as was watching the rape in the show. Here is other thing, I don't think Cersei was saying it was wrong because it was Jaime. IMO I think she was saying it because of where they were (like she said in the book). I will have a hard time believing that Cersei suddenly feels immoral about her past. As for Show Jaime he is obviously being driven to the breaking point and can't control himself. He has changed and probably doesn't understand things like he use to. It is definitely not a excuse to rape but this should send his character in the direction it goes to faster than the book did. Like GRRM said the POV helps with understanding and the show has to "show". We will just have to see the next episode plays.
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There is an interesting disconnect in perception going on. To me, the book and the show both depict rapes. So there was nothing for me to be enraged about. In the book we are limited to the rapists perspective and even then it is presented as brutal:

"No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "not here. The septons . . . "
"The Others can take the septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference.

She said no. According to his POV it was weakly. But who cares. No means no last I checked. She knew it was even more inappropriate than usual but he forced the issue so she gave in. That is rape.



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EXACTLY!

I find it pretty disturbing that people refuse to see this as rape. I think they're just biased by their love for the character and want his arc to be a redemption arc. So, having him rape someone kind of kills that redemption arc, eh? But on the show, there's really no way to deny it.

I think that what they're most annoyed at Dan and Dave for is bursting their bubble of ignorant bliss!
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Whether it's the person or the place is irrelevant -she doesn't consent. THAT is what is important. She doesn't consent, ergo it is rape.
And bullsh*t that Jaime can't control himself. He's perfectly in control, he might be upset but being upset doesn't flip the 'rapist' switch, he understands consent just fine and chose to ignore it. This is the opposite of sending his character where it needs to go -sure, it'll create a strain between him and Cersei, but they were already strained, so...?
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My apologies if I've implied trying to make excuses for what was done. Just trying to figure out Show Jaimes motive and the showrunners. I do state that it was wrong. Rape is wrong and so is incest. My interpretation of Cersei's statement comes from how the scene played out in the books. I completely agree with you it was rape. A violent crime which I thought Jaime would never be capable of, however it happened and will have to see what the aftermath is....
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