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Game of Thrones S04E05: "First of His Name"


As last week's episode "Oathkeeper" faded to BLUEGame of Thrones fans who are familiar with the source novels were knocked off their Iron Thrones of haughtiness. That final scene—when the White Walkers scooped up one of Craster's babies and turned him into one of them (a White Walker, a Wight Walker, a wight, whatever it was)—doesn't occur in any of the Song of Ice and Fire books that've been published to date. And according to episode director Michelle MacLaren, who also helmed this Sunday's upcoming "First of His Name," deviations from the source material—or at least the already published source material—are going to happen "more and more."

Aside from a few other small changes (like the show's version of Locke being a composite of the book's Vargo Hoat and others, to name one example), Game of Thrones has largely gone by the book. So imagine the spit-take readers did when, for the first time in the series, a big piece of information they didn't see coming was delivered to both audiences at the same time. I know my book-savvy colleagues at TVGuide.com lost their sh*t. It's been reported in the past that Game of Thrones creators David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have had conversations with George R.R. Martin about the future of the series, and that the wise old Martin let them in on some secrets of the upcoming books that no one else knows about. So the show-specific new info isn't just being made up on the spot, it's almost certainly coming from books that haven't been written yet.

But what I want to know is, how does everyone out there feel about this? 

Book people: Are you bummed that by watching the show you may be spoiled for events in the books? Is it fair that the show is entering previously uncharted territory, since the books came first? Will you miss spoiling everything for show people in the comments sections of Game of Thrones stories on the internet? (Just kidding! I know it's only a small percentage of you who are absolute monsters. Most of you are awesome.)

Show people: How hard are you laughing at book people right now? Do you feel bad about laughing at book people? You should feel bad about laughing at book people. 

For the record, I've read the first three books, so I'm in that fuzzy area where what we see on the show is starting to be new to me anyway, therefore I don't really feel too affected. But whenever a comic book or a novel is adapted for television or film, I generally think it's great when the adaptation aims to interpret the original work while steering away from the source as it sees fit. To me, they're like two separate pieces of art, and without any distinction between the two, the adapted version would simply be a really expensive book on tape. Both versions will always exist, and there's no rule that says you have to love both. 

However, if I was one of the people who've been reading the novels faithfully and waiting patiently for the next installment of the story since the first one was published in 1991? I might be a little angry. I might even stop watching the show. 

Let's follow the honor system in these two polls and take the temperature of the Game of Thrones fandom:



Play nice, people. And please remember: No book spoilers in the comments!


Previously Aired Episode

AIRED ON 6/26/2016

Season 6 : Episode 10

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Heres my problem with the shows creators changing some of the plot points, if what they changed in the stories actually made them better I wouldnt mind, but most of the time, I dont think thats true. Like every romance plot they add feels contrived, why change Shae's character around so much and the worst one of all, the Jaime/Cercei/rape scene! Among other things. The most poignant moments in the show so far have been when they have stayed true to the books (in the case of Jaime and Brienne in the bath, almost to the letter).
Plus I absolutely love GRRM's writing style and the fact that he seems to be able to write such amazing diverse female characters (plus ya, less rape scenes or at least they're handled better).
I'm now serriously comsidering not watching the show, after having been so excited at them combining books 4 and 5. So yeah, im a bit dissapointed.
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However they do change it, it can't possibly be as bad as what they did to Under the Dome
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I used to be one of those people who would be nitpicky about shows staying true to the books and didn't like it when they deviated from the plot in the books. Now I understand that TV shows NEED to be different from their book counterparts in order for people to stay interested and keep them on their toes.

Its no fun to watch a show when you have that one friend who's read all the books spoil it for you by being a smartass because they know everything thats ever going to happen. So in this sense, Game of Thrones adding things that haven't happened in the books yet is a form of revenge. To answer the question, yes I am laughing at book people right now.

I really don't mind that the show is somewhat spoiling what is going to happen in the books. But to others that do mind, its George R.R. Martin's own fault this is happening. He only had 10+ years to finish the series before it got picked up HBO. Call me pessimist but there's no way he's finishing the last two books before the show catches up to him.
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I haven't read the books, despite being a 'book person', for the simple reason that I find Game of Thrones is the one show on tv that can provide truly shocking moments to its audience. Ever since they separated Ned Starks head from his body it was apparent that Game of Thrones was different to most other shows and so I chose to avoid the books for now.

Looking at it from that point of view then I think it's great that they're deviating from the novels, as it adds the unpredictability factor back that's mostly gone for those that have read the source material. It also gives the showrunners a bit more freedom, which is always essential for the good to become great.

As for Martin revealing the end, until it's actually written by him, I guess that's subject to change anyway. They could even seriously shock and have two completely different endings. Not likely, but if there was ever a show to do it with, this is it. Either way it's better that someone knows an end point for the series, just in case.
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I don't entirely buy this story of George R R Martin telling the producers of the show how the story ends... Why would you give away the work of a lifetime and have a TV series spoil your story for future books? It makes no sense to me. As far as I know, authors should be very protective of their work. Is the White Walker king scene really what the author has envisioned? We don't know for sure since the series has been changing things so deeply (The house of the Undying, Dany losing her dragons, Robb's bride, the whole Craster's Keep plot... to name but a few). Still, like some people mentioned in this thread, there was a reference in the books that the babies might have been turned, not eaten or something. Do the producers of the show really know how the story ends or just one of the possibilities the author has come up with?
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I see it as the same thing with Gendry's brothers:
  • On the book, it was hearsay one character told another character, only because one of the mothers died with the baby.
  • On the books, it was the most devastating scene of the second season premiere, with every child Robert ever fathered being slaughtered on-camera.
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I know this isn't what you're asking, but I was always a little on the fence on whether or not I made the right decision to not read the books, until the red wedding episode

I stumbled onto the show and watched the first seaons before I tried the books, but two things happend:

1) i wasn't able to imagine the characters myself, i always imagined the actors on the show and that kind of ruined it for me, a lot of the fun in reading fantasy is imagining all the characters and such

2) i didn't want the books to spoil the show for me
-& which it turns out is exactly how I felt after watching the red wedding episode, i was SO GLAD i decided to not read on past book 1 because there is no way my imagination could have topped watching the red wedding on tv and not knowing it was coming, i sat there with my hands on my opened mouth for 20 minutes when i watched that, best decision ever (in my opinio, some people may have imaginations that rival tv show productions but not myself)
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the experience of reading the Red Wedding is totally different than watching it. I have the feeling that it was a total surprise for those who watched it first. The experience of reading is that slowly you start to realize over a couple of chapters that something is going to happen, but you don't know what, so you start imagine things that could happen, but when sh*t happens you just can't believe what's happening and you don't know exactly what's happening as you only see what Cat sees until you see Arya's point of view.
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I've read all the books and love the show. I don't mind if they deviate from the books on certain things. It was refreshing to be surprised. Brans storyline needs spicing up. Hopefully they will change Dany's Mereen storyline.
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Omg... your poll is sooo childish!... xD

Let's hope that this last "applaud" huge deviation don't be the first nail of the coffin eh...
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I started with the show and have loved every second. The only annoying factor has been all my book-folk friends snarkily informing me that the show is rubbish compared to the books. As such, I'm attempting to conceal my desire for snarky rebuttals, but not entirely succeeding ;)
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Now you can use "Baby Walkers. Ha! Spoiler.in.your.face" (kidding, I haven't met annoying book-reader in real life, they are all awesome)
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I know I'm supposed to say I'm 'super cool with it', 'they're different mediums, different interpretations' and that usually is my attitude. Changes with adaptations have never bothered me before even on this show. But..

I started reading these books years ago, way before there was even any chatter about a TV series. It is *the books* I fell in love with. I'd be lying if I said the idea of any big twists remaining being spoiled for me via the TV show wasn't disappointing. That's my concern more than any small changes. I'm not angry because with GRRM's writing pace most of us knew it was inevitable. It's still disappointing though.

Of course, I could stop watching the show. (I actually am taking a break from it because some of their character decisions lately have been very off putting and I'm less tempted to watch) The problem with that is GoT is so mainstream now and the only thing worse than having a plot point spoiled by the TV show would be having it spoiled by some internet headline.
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I am also a book reader, but I never saw that scene as a spoiler only because I highly doubt that a White Walker would be a POV character and that scene will never be in the books. I feel it only clarified what my imagination was creating when reading the books.

At this point, though, I just want the story to continue any way possible. Ole' George is taking too long.
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I agree that scene isn't a huge spoiler since it's pretty much what most people thought was happening with Craster's sons. Deviations like that I can deal with. But we also know GRRM has told D&D all the biggest upcoming plot points. It's learning about those through the show I'm less excited about.

I understand people would rather have the story finished in any way and I empathise with that. (I wish I felt the same.. Would make it a lot easier). Personally, after the huge wait for aDwD the 3 years I've been waiting for book 6 doesn't feel *that* long. I can wait longer. (Within reason. I won't be so understanding if I'm still waiting three years from now)

I suppose the difference is, at this point I don't want the storyline in any format. How that story is delivered is just as important to me or I might as well just read the summaries on wikipedia. For plenty of people having the story delivered by the show is just as good (or even preferable) and that's fair enough.

But it is what it is. Too bad for me, really. And on the off chance the series never gets finished in written form, I will be glad that (most of) the answers are out there.
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The thing is G.R.R. Martin might have told the showrunners events that might happen later on in the series, but that doesn't mean he is gonna stick to it. ASOIAF was originally said to be a trilogy we're at 5 books now of which the last 2 were meant to be 1 and there are 2 more to go (so the author says) so what might happen in the TV series might not happen in the books.
That said I don't know how I would feel if a Red Wedding style event would be spoiled by the TV series.
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I think it's different because, no matter how badly they tried to spoil it for me (I had already finished the books way before the Red Wedding), I felt this weird compulsion to stay with the characters, to be there for them, when it would finally happen.

I couldn't touch Robb's hand or tell Catelyn everything was going to be okay, but it felt oddly comforting to know I was there, suffering the whole thing with them...and Talisa...and baby Eddard.
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I just hope that George Martin gets the next book out soon to prove that scene plausible. This show has been great at staying as true as possible to its source material, though the size and scope of it will always need to be adjusted for the small screen in order to make it watchable to non-readers. I've always been a huge critic of films / shows diverging from the books because of the tendency of them to change for the worst. the only good adaptation is an accurate one (more or less). Look to GoT, the Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and the Hunger Games for the good ones and Legend of the Seeker, The Percy Jackson films, City of Bones, I am Number Four and Eragon for the bad ones.
Note; I only went for adaptations that I have both read and watched incl. a tv show in both good and bad examples. For others who can pick up on it, the less accurate adaptations have performed very poorly at the box office and did not receive sequels (except Logan Lerman's Percy Jackson somehow got that appalling sequel, Sea of Monsters).
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For the people that have been reading them since the first book came out I kind of get them being bent out of shape, they've been waiting twenty years for all of this to come together. But most book readers (myself included) only started reading the books either after they show began or after the show was announced so we haven't put two decades into this series. As a book reader that only read the books about a year ago now I love it, the wait for the last two books has been excruciating and I've only been waiting a fraction of how long other have been waiting so the more info the better. And realistically the show's going to overtake the books in season six or seven at the latest so this is really just a taste of what's to come. I agree with Tim in that it's a waste to just copy the books verbatim, you may as well just read the books, keep the big cool moments we all love and feel free to change the journey to get to those moments I say. It's not like they're really changing a whole hell of alot, when Peter Jackson was trying to get LOTR made into movies someone suggested they do it in one movie and fuse Gondor and Rohan, now something like that would be punishable by death but something like changing Asha's name to Yara is fine. People need to get off their high horses and realize the books aren't holy tombs and that changing some things isn't blasphemous. People complained less about the changes to the story in the recent Noah movie than they did about last week's episode.
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True, I'm just as invested on the characters perhaps, but I only read the books because they are way better than fanfiction.

I didn't have to wait, I just bought one after the other as I was finishing them. And watch the show or the DVD sets when I ran out of reading material. Maybe that's why I see the changes as a fun thing instead of the alternative.
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
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"Are you bummed that by watching the show you may be spoiled for events in the books? Is it fair that the show is entering previously uncharted territory, since the books came first?"

No, I must know more. I've been waiting for years, and years, and years. I'll voraciously consume any new piece of information like a starving man at Thanksgiving, or like Reek eating a rat.

MOAR

Spoil it all right now, I hardly even care. I just have to know. Post-haste.
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I'm a book reader and I don't mind a lot of the deviations, just some. Having the characters stories prolonged to keep them in the show a bit, I'm fine with. Its not like they get replaced by more memorable characters, just more names and faces that only leave an impact after you've read a couple of paragraphs explaining why they matter, and that isn't something you get when Varys mentions it as an aside to whomever it is they are using as the narratives sounding board.
And there are some stories, like Dany collecting her army and Tyrions journey that are fine at a books pace, but can probably be condensed for the show. They know where those end up, we are still in the middle and don't need to see every little thing when there are other stories that could use some more screen time, like Sansa, Stannis and Davos. Do we need to watch Dany talk to every single slave owner or city leader when we know she will just take the city anyway? They have already neutered her compared to the books, do we have to watch her learn how to be Gandhi every episode.
And having them spend time with characters who are soon to pass from the world of Westeros is okay as long as they still pass.
And I think it is becoming clear they will be skipping some of the storylines that haven't really gone anywhere in the book in order to focus on the characters they already have. Which I don't mind much either. Especially since they have inside knowledge of what's coming and have a good sense of what parts really do turn out to be pointless time fillers.
The walkers turning babies was unexpected, but I can't say I didn't like it. Mance got the entire Free people to unite because they were afraid of something, and apparently we know what that is, it isn't dying or being eaten, it is being turned. And that scares them and their giants. And now we know. It was always an unexplained cloud hanging over the books, they were suppose to be the real threat and never make an appearance, at least not yet. And know they have. So it should make the scenes at the Wall a little more tense. That doesn't really change anything about the story, just jumped it up a bit.
i'm leary about the Bran at Castor thing, but mainly because his character seems to mean so very little in the book. So maybe they know something about whats coming and are keeping him active until that story catches up to the rest.
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This is not was not a surprise at all. While the specific scene was not in the books, the fact that Craster's sons were being turned into white walkers is in the books. In Storm of Swords, when Craster's wives are telling Sam why he needs to escape with Gilly and her newborn, it was because "they" were coming for the boy. When asked who "they"were, the old wife says "the boys brothers." THat can only mean the kids had bcome white walkers themsleves.
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Small changes? Locke is the biggest change for you?!! I have just read the first two books and the show interprets things a lot differently and mostly in inanely moronic ways like changing Dany and Khal's sweet first time to rape in season 1 which still gets on my nerves.
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Actually, Locke gets on my nerves because he has the personality of a grown up Gendry. The both regad highborns the same.
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I'm a book person and I didn't learn anything new from last weeks ending. I mean, what else would the White Walkers be doing with the babies?? I don't feel like it ruined anything about the books. In fact I think it was purposely done by Martin and the producers because how else would Martin let people in on what the Walkers are secretly doing with Crasters sons?? Martin is not going to do a chapter from a White Walkers point of view.
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To be honest, at this point I was sure the White Walker were given the babies o their zombies to be eaten.
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Lol! Never thought of that. Why would the white walkers eat craster's babies? Not much of a meal for a big army.
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Whenever beloved fiction is adapted from one form to another factions form with extreme loyalty to one of the two formats only, infighting between these factions ends up being counterproductive and can cause real damage. We should all just get along as fans of the material.

Anyway many people here are calling themselves 'book readers' when they only started reading after watching part of the show. Nah-ah. Real book readers (like moi) had read up to aFFC well before the show started (I had it finished by early 2008) and preferably before the show was announced. But instead people watch a season or two THEN start the books and say, 'Yeah I'm totes a book reader, power to the written word and all that'. Whom are they kidding? They're not book readers, they're dirty mixed-media mongrels. The REAL book readers will soon rise from the shadows and create a NEW WORLD ORDER in our image. It shall be GLORIOUS!

Um what was the question again? Oh yeah, the show deviating from the books thing. Well the scene with the Others was awesome and it made the show more surprising. For now I'm fine with it. I mean it's a spoiler but I won't know how much of a spoiler it is until that information is revealed in the books. If it's built up as a shocking, dramatic reveal in the books then I'll feel a little cheated, but maybe it won't. On the other hand the limited POV structure of the books means that we don't always get the big picture, so maybe this information won't be revealed at all and the show is actually providing us with more clarity. We'll have to see.

There are other sorts of deviations. Many deviations are about compressing the books to fit the show, they're necessary for time constraints. Then there are deviations to cover a lack of plot-driven content for a main character (Dany in Season 2, Bran in Season 4). There's nothing wrong with these per se as long as the execution's good. Dany's story in Season 2 dragging didn't help, giving Bran more stuff to do is great idea. However when they deviate you don't want them to change fundamentals of the story, so having Sam tell Jon about Bran when he didn't in the books is concerning and I hope that Jon and Bran don't meet up.
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Book lovers should try watching the show with my father... Over this weekend, my grandmother decided to marathon through the first season of the show, and I offered myself to give her a careful walk-through about Westeros, Essos, North of the Wall, etc, carefully explaining the main information about the most important characters, just for her not to be confused, but she said I shouldn't worry because my grandfather would explain things to her as they watched.

First, my grandfather has no problem with character names. There are only two names, "this one" and "that one." Simple as that. Plus, we get his free interpretation of the characters. he points at season 1 Daenerys and says, "this one is a powerful witch." And according to him, Bran is that one who "communicates with wolves."

He also has no problems with spoilers. he points at a character and says, "this one is going to do this and that, but not now," and "such and such thing will happen to that one later" as he remembers events.

I swear I'm no purist at all, and I haven't even read the books, but at some point I was pulling my hair out and had to leave the room. But the whole thing was hilarious.

So, long story short, the moral of the story is that worrying about minutia in the book and show is meaningless, since most people don't really pay attention to every single thing they see and may only have a fraction of the understanding an expert fan has, but they still may enjoy the show. Especially a show as complicates as Game of Thrones. The rest is pointless.
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So funny about your grand dad! Ha! & so true about expert book reader fans having a deeper understanding of the show. Iv read the books TWICE and I still have to go to blogs to find out how others interpret this or that.
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Title of this post is misleading, i don't see how this is a preview for tomorrows episode
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I took it as a spoiler warning: the show is about to show a scene that hasn't been featured on the books yet.
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Well if anything in regards to the type of spoiler you're talking about would be from the last episode, oathbreaker, as in this post the only thing that is said about todays episode is that it is the same director and that there will be more deviations (which in itself is not a spoiler)
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As a book reader I was excited for the deviated material it kept me on the edge of my seat like wtf is happening right now?! Don't get me wrong they changed things or added smaller scenes here or there but nothing major like the second half of 'Oathkeeper'. I appreciate what the series has done and the work D&D have put into making it its own work of art. For me its the little things that get changed or left out that irk me lil nitpicky things but other than that I have no qualms about them. At this point we need to understand the show is moving at a much faster pace and like Michelle Maclaren stated will take many and more deviations. Plus I hate when all the book trolls feel all superior and spoil everything for show viewers so haha its nice that we're getting all this new stuff at the same time. I'm always on the forums and know that a lot of them are pissed!
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PS- The book version of any new material shown will hands down trump anything we see soooo I'm not worried
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Do you really enjoy the books better? Iv read them twice and I'm starting to enjoy the show better. The books have to many hidden meanings and they meander around.
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The books have so much detail and intrigue that you could literally discuss them for hours on end. Soo many mysteries and prophecies it calls for multiple re-reads you either miss so much or don't know what's truly happening in a scene that you could come up w/ endless theories like R+L=J ...The show is good though
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Also pages and pages dedicated to describing meals. I think if he cut that out The Winds of Winter would already be out by now.
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Lol like Joffrey's 77 course wedding feast
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As a loooong time book reader I was slightly annoyed...but I love the world and will take it all in with gratitude. The book and show are to different entities to me.
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Why would I be mad? We're constantly surprised as readers and the novelty of a new plot twist is always great, regardless of how it's delivered. This particular new thing just happened to arrive now as opposed to, say, 2018. That sounds like a good thing to me.
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Good point. If anything, the Baby Walkers beat the waiting that's sure.
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Yes, the book is better. The book is always better. Let's just set that argument aside and move on to the reality.

Let's not sugar-coat it. A vast amount of the changes are being made to accommodate Bran. It's clear that Bran will play a very significant role in ADOS, if not TWOW. Everything that precedes that is merely getting him where he needs to be and teaching him what he needs to know to be ready to assume that mantle in the later books. As a result, his story has been quite boring up until that point. This is why GRRM has been sparing with his chapters, only showing him when he does or learns something or to give us an update cos we haven't seen him in 10+ chapters. While that works well for the books, that can't work in the show.

Jaime, Tyrion, Davos, Jon, Sam & Sansa are all working their way through their book 3 material. Dany & Arya are almost finished theirs. Meanwhile Bran has already started his book 5 material and, even with deviations, will most likely be 30-50% of the way through it by season's end. If they were to stick to the books, they'd have to put him on ice(no pun intended) for a season and a half while they wait for everyone else to catch up. With actor contracts, production realities & IHW springing up like a Jack-in-the-box, that's just not possible. In order to keep him in any way relevant, they have to deviate from the story. I don't agree with their decision to make Jon aware Bran is NotW but I think, in comparison to what they could have done, the deviations to Craster's Keep are fairly minor and should give us some decent scenes next episode. TV is an entirely different medium with a lot more constraints(especially on a show as gargantuan as this). There will be changes. Deal with it.

As for the White Walkers, any book reader with a brain has been suspecting that's what happened to Craster's sons for a long time now. It's not that big a deal to have it confirmed. It's not like they said R+L=J(although that's been practically confirmed in the books anyway).
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Concerning Bran's storyline; In episode 2 when he touches the tree do you think that's a lil early for him? Apparently there's no Cold hands to guide him so I guess he needed some way of figuring out where to go but this is something the Three-Eyed Crow teaches him specifically (to tap into the power of the weirwoods) no?
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Yes, I thought that happened quite a bit earlier than expected. I actually really liked how they described that scene and it was more powerful in the books, I think.
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I just assumed he warged into the tree. Since its a tree, it "sees" diferent
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Maybe :/ I have it in my head that he already knew how to do that when he reached the Three Eyed Crow. Or maybe it was Jon who did it. I'm not sure, Either way, while he's aware he has this power, he doesn't know how to harness it fully. This will probably be what the Three Eyed Crow teaches him.
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Besides, don't the differences provide show watchers with an incentive to actually read the books? If it were exactly the same, there'd be less of a reason to bother. I know I found AGOT harder to read than its sequels cos it was so similar to the show(I still enjoyed it cos it was a much more immersive experience. But I liked books 2-5 more).
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I don't know, I still remember the shocker that was the prologue once the White Walkers killed the ranger left alive in the pilot, while the one I saw die on-camera ran to be executed at the hands of Ned Stark.
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I'm a book reader and I don't have a problem with what they have done so far. Except for what Jamie did to Cersi at a grave site. Hopefully, they don't go crazy with it like True Blood did. That show suffered when it didn't have to since the book material was better than what happened in season 2 and some of 3. Keep it small and spread out and it could work really well.
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So I am going to come at this from someone who hasn't read this series but have read others (Southern Vampires as itwas called in the beginning to be known later as the Sookie Stackhouse series and Women of the Otherworld) and I both hate and enjoy both faithful adaptations and strays. Like on True Blood I loved when Niall was coming but dreaded that book storyline and was pleased we went elsewhere. On Bitten I knew the big bad all along and knew the romance outcome but the best thing was how they ended Phillip and the whole idea of Malcolm having different plans than the book version. I guess I like Easter eggs but I also like independence. But I guess the issue here is that the books are being maybe spoiled. I think I feel bad.
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As a chronic (and very arrogant) "The book was better"-person, I don't like the show deviating from the books. When you film a show that is based on a novel or series, you follow that book or series as much as possible, or you do whatever you want and name it something else.
Having said that, George RR Martin is heavily involved in the shows, so I'm likely to assume that whatever is shown in the series as deviating from the books might actually indeed be information that in the books will only be revealed later, thus making sure the book readers don't get all the fun. That makes this an annoyingly hard question to answer for me personally. I think I might like it in this instance. Cautiously, though. Wouldn't want to tarnish that haughty reader-knows-best-attitude I've carefully built over the years.
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He's actually not that heavily involved in the show. If he was, there'd be a lot less deviations from the books.
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Deviations are inevitable.
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I'd say Talisa being pregnant, Robb's baby getting killed inside the womb, or them wanting to name him Eddard made the whole thing more powerful on the show (not to say more devastating).

Arya being Tywin's servant girl on the show made them shine as characters in a way they didn't on the books, Gendry's brothers getting killed on-camera was a punch to the stomach they wasn't on the books, so was the change to the person that gave the order.

Even Loras being engaged to Cersei makes his storyline more poignant on the show, if only because of the people he is forced to interact with on-camera.
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I agree about Robb & Talisa's baby I almost shed a tear when she said baby Eddard and omg I screameddddd when Black Walder plunged that knife through her belly (cuz you know that doesn't happen in the books she's not even at the Twins when all this goes down) so yea I was a mess.

Those Arya & Tywin scenes are some of favorite interactions from season 2, along w/ Cersei Tyrion.

I dont really like the the Cersei/Loras marriage plot and thought it was over after last seasons finale when she specifically states 'I won't be marrying See Loras' all confidantly to Tyrion but ok. But yea I understand about what you mean about it making him more poignant to the story and providing more scenes.
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It's been a long time since I read the books, so sometimes I don't even notice when there's been a change... but whether I mind the change or not all depends on what's changed. I didn't mind the tv show adding the white walker baby thing last week, even though it looked kind of hokey. I minded the tv show turning Jaime and Cersei's sex at the funeral scene into rape. I minded the torture porn with Theon last season. I do think many of the changes have been necessary to make a better tv show, so I don't complain much about it.
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We keep forgetting Jaime never lost a hand for Brienne the first time around: that never happened on the books. He lost the hand because he wouldn't stop fighting for his cousin's sword and Bolton's men thought he was better off without his sword hand.

Jaime losing what defined him so Brienne would remain a maid was a complete invention of the show. It changed the character as we knew him. It changed his connection with Brienne as we knew it, thus the connection with Cersei as a result. He can no longer connect with his twin sister in King's Landing, Cersei no longer wishes to connect with him, and that was what I took from the new funeral scene.
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I would have preferred they drop the sex at the funeral altogether, since Cersei had already rejected Jaime many times since he came back... but then I know there would be lots of people wondering what happened to the sex scene and complaining about that too. Still, I'd rather they hadn't done it the way they did, especially since they're treating it as if no rape occurred.

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Because no rape occurred neither on the show nor the book: it was just really inappropriate sex in front of their dead son. Cersei is Queen Regent, she wants Tyrion's head because she doesn't like him, she wants Sansa's head only because she's married to him: what do you think she would've done to a man that rape her?

I'd rather they drop the scene Cersei tells Brienne that she loves Jaime, if only because I always thought it was cute neither one of them figured it out at this point. It was all they had left. Now its just harrowing and desolating for both of them alike.
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Was the sex consensual? No. Therefore, rape. It's really not that complicated.
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@ben45tpy: Craster's wives were raped, The Queen Regent was not. And it "the internet" jumps off a cliff chanting the former wasn't while the latter was, rest assure: I will not.
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ionee at this point you're starting to sound like a rape-denier in general. It's really hard to see why you continue to deny it as rape when the whole internet disagrees except misogynists and crew on the show.
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On TV, Jaime lost his hand, but Rick didn't. And Carl never lost an eye. No, wait! That's a whole different adaptation!
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I don't mind about the new information on the show... I just don't like how much they're changing scenes that I thought really important in the books! Aside of the chronologic changes (that I can understand!), they are changing the core of some characters and that, for me is taking a lot of the appeal of the show! I really loved seasons 1 and 2, watched the 3rd just because, and couldn't finnish watching any of this season's episodes without getting bored or disappointed somehow!!!
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I read all the books after season 1 finished and simply couldn't resist knowing there was more of this story available. Have always loved the shows and the subtle deviations from the books.

This last episode was awesome (like a hundred billion hotdogs). That final scene demonstrated that both formats now build together to create a better whole. I look forward to more of these inventions.

I wrote a (spoiler free) community post on this very subject only yesterday: shameless plug for my article on GoT changes

(also I can't avoiding thinking of that sketch almost every time I write the word awesome, hence the link)
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First, I haven't read the books.. but personally, I don't mind it being different. let's be honest, George RR Martin is taking a long time writing those books and is in his mid 60s, so who knows if it will ever be done.. the show can't rely solely on source material or it's eventually going to come to a standstill, or one book is going to last 5 seasons.

while I do like it when a show or movie stays as true to the source material as possible, with a lengthy show like this I don't think I mind it deviating and giving the people waiting for the final two books something to look forward to instead of just seeing video versions of the text they've already read.
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I'm a book reader and I'm glad for the new info because Martin is taking forever with the books. There is a particular event that occurs at the end of book 5 that I'm dying to know what happens and it looks like i'll know in a year or two from one source.

That being said the end scene from last week wasn't a surprise for me. I theorized 2 years ago that casters sons were becoming white walkers. Not from the books but from the scene were jon sees caster leaving his baby son for the white walkers and the woman called them his bothers. Its was a surprise that the child grew up instantly I thought it happened over several years.
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Also for those who are confused. The wrights are the dead people who come back with the blue eyes they are killed by fire. The white walkers are the creatures with white hair and skin and they are killed by dragon gas. The others are the evil devil gods, not an actually entity.
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I don't get the separation between book and tv fans. There are SO many other ways to know the story and the characters, in extenso.
I've read only a few chapters of the books, and not in order, but hey, go ahead and quizz me, i dare you.
To me, any source of new info is good, so new material is just that, new material, not a spoiler.
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So long as they keep it on a "here and there"-basis, I'm all for it as a book reader. It's an awesome-sauce side-dish to the chapters GRRM publishes here and there (mostly there) from The Winds of Winter. Actually makes the wait for the new book more bearable.
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its good actually..book readers might be up in arms but they're not degrading the quality of the show and also keeping it more interesting
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I came to the show first and then gobbled up the books after watching the Red Wedding. I feel I am getting the best of both worlds, so I don't mind too much the differences and deviations. I would prefer the books to be finished before the show but I find this predicament an added bonus of sorts. Martin has already said that the show has influenced his writing for future books e.g. he liked the portrayal of Osha in the show and has written more of her into future books. It seems a rather unique situation to have a TV adaptation of an unfinished book where the course of one influences the other. It feels symbiotic and very positive.
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And Margaery, the author keeps saying the Margaery from the show is how he envisioned his Margaery 5 years down the road. Which means the show is sheding a light as to what Maragery's involvement - and influence - will be in later books.
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Could also mean that the Margaery yet to come, in the outstanding books, is altered as his vision of her has been realised.
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I think margaery in the show is much more likable than margaery in the books but I still don't want her to be queen and there is no one I can think of that I want her to have a happy ending with.
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Loras.

Unlike any other character, Margaery cares about her brother, so much she marred his boyfriend so they could be together. She would've been an amazing diplomat, she would've been a terrific chief of staff, Margaery could've been vicepresident should she have been born in modern times!

In Westeros? She has to settle for Queen. How unfair is that.
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Loras is her gay brother, thats not a happily ever after and Loras is preocupied at the end of book 5.

I agree that Maragery in the show is likable but the book verison is a itch. The Tyrell's are power hunger and only take care of the people because they know they need them to be in power or else they will end up dead like the riot where the priest died.

The people I'd accept on the Throne are an Starks/Snows, Dany and Tyrion.
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The problem for Margaery is that contenders for the throne and hence potential suitors are diminishing fast. I also can't think of anyone who would suit her. I suppose that's because her character is'nt looking for a kindred spirit but a passport to the throne. Somebody as false as she is though would be a good bet.
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Oh I can think of another faker who wants the Throne, he's not in the show yet and in the books he is engaged to his "cousin". I really don't want them on the Throne together but maybe they can rule the Reach or Dorne together.
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Loras.

Unlike any other character, Margaery cares about her brother, so much she marred his boyfriend so they could be together. She would've been an amazing diplomat, she would've been a terrific chief of staff, Margaery could've been vicepresident should she have been born in modern times!

In Westeros? She has to settle for Queen. How unfair is that.
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I watched the show's first three seasons and then read the books last year. So, for me, the shows spoiled the books, and now the books are spoiling the show. (Although neither actually spoiled the other).

I was just really pleased to get some new content. There was no way that would have been put in without GRRM's input.
One of the great things about the show is that you get to see scenes that don't feature a POV character, so there's probably more scope to include
the Others/White Walkers. It always seems a bit weird that they're practically ignored in the books (to date).

Probably the main spoiler from last week was the short-lived snippet in HBO's synopsis, which I don't think was approved!
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I'm a book reader, and I'm excited to see both the show deviating from the books, and to be getting new information from the show. I should note that while I consider myself a big fan of the books, I'm not a longtime one - I just read the books about a year ago, and watched the first season of GOT first.

When I first heard that it was likely the show would overtake the books - this was several months ago, last summer, I think - I was sort of disappointed. I didn't like the idea of the show spoiling the books. My mind has mostly changed since then, though. I'm frustrated by Martin's slow pace, and really, the last 2 books have not been up to par. The quality of the writing is great, but he's losing his plot. So I'm excited to see a tighter version of events on the show, and I don't mind if we see the end of the show before getting the end of the books.
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I actually don't mind deviations and changes; it keeps me on my toes and in suspense, especially in the storyline North of The Wall and Yara coming to rescue Theon. I'm excited to see what results those twists in the take produce. But spoilers? No. I'm very anti-spoiler, in either direction. I wouldn't have wanted such things as The Red Wedding spoiled for me by book-readers and I don't want Winds of Winter spoiled for me by Game of Thrones. The books came first for me, which is why I want to see firstly how everything unfolds within the pages of George R.R. Martin's words, in the mind's eye of my imagination, before I see the show bring it to life and add its own spin.
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I've read the books, but I appreciate this is a different media and I alway knew things would have to go 'off script' a bit to work well on screen. I've actually been really impressed with how much has been true to the books and the way they have managed the changes.

Can't say i'm too sure they know what they're doing with Jamie at the moment and i've felt slightly cheated out of one or two other small details here and there but nothing has made me angry.

I enjoyed the glimpse into the world of the White Walkers and hope we get more, I can't wait to see what else they expand on and I'm kind of hoping they speed up Denerys' time line a bit!
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They have a timeline issue with the show. Jamie and Brienne's storyline is running way to fast and Jon and Dany's are running too slow. I know Jamie and Brienne are fan favourite on the show but they aren't the most important characters and are getting to much attention. Brienne's storyline is already into book 4 and Jamie's is only slowed down because he is at Tyrion's pace which is correct with the book. Jon had great scenes in the book that appear to have been cut back due to time and it appears they will cut back Dany's storyline in Meera. Also they are way behind on a certain death that should have happened last season, the one with the bridge.
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Actually, they switched the stories between Yunkai and Astapo, the siege of Mereen took a whole lot more time. Xaro Xhoan Daxos is alive and a recurrent guest to the festivities. Missandei is a 10 year old with two older brothers, not as old as Dany with a thing for an Unsullied.

And Grey Wrom and Missandei never happened on the books (I like them better in the show though).
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I agree the siege goes faster but if you compare the the order of chapters in the book to the timeline in the show than Dany and Jon's are behind. In the books Dany has already conqured Meera when Tyrion is on the stand.
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I don't understand your point. I read the books I know the differences between the show and books. My point was that Dany's storyline is slower than in the books. I can't really go into details without spoilering anything but in the books by this point she already learned about her betrayers. In the books she has several chapters about her the things that happen when she's in Meera and I don't think they will have time for that.

I agree I like Missandei and Grey Worm relationship in the show but its kinda going nowhere.


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Actually, the point is that Dany storyline goes a lot faster on the show, the siege of Mereen and the swift resolution of Xaro Xhoan Daxos being two of the many examples I just gave.

Dany can't know the identity of any traitor just yet, because pivotal characters that should give said information to her haven't been introduced yet.
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I see him as the same Jaime, only the one from the show got to King's Landing sooner than he actually did on the books, and lost the hand for completeley different - and I dare to say better - reasons.

If I didn't complained Locke cut his hand because he interrupted the imminent rape of Brienne, I won't complain Cersei already despised him by the time they had intercourse at a funeral.
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Well, it depends. No Jaqen's bath at Harrenhal was cruel and unusual considering Jaime & Brienne did have their scene there.

The Baby Walker scene, on the other hand, was just awesome!

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Then again, I only started reading the books between seasons 1 and 2 so no one would spoil me. I do get a sick pleasure from the fact that I have the power to stop whoever is about to give me a *spoilery hint* with an "I already know".

I only blame Jaime & Brienne that I continue reading to the last book, and also a bunch of new characters that would be unfair for me to spoil whom also kept me going.

Bottom line: I went into the books so I would be the only one with the power to spoil me. If the show wishes to continue these changes, I'd say: Bring them on! (with my blessings).
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That's why I read the books, the spoilers in the comments. I usually save the books for after the movie/show, because they're better and make me unhappy with the adaption. Not possible here. Although it's my fault for reading the comments, instead of just the column.
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I do like to compare what's in the past though: how Talisa being at the Red Wedding or Robb's baby getting killed inside the womb actually made the whole thing more dreadful, or how Arya being Tywin's servant girl at Harrenhal made both characters a lot better on the show.

Its intriguing how, in real life, the same people so eager to spoil me before I read the books, can't think of a single change that makes the story better once the episode has aired.
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