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And here I thought Joffrey was cruel with Robert's bastard babies. However, the show has finally done it: it showed exactly what becomes of Craster's babies once they are "offered to the Gods."

It's something that was never on the books, so that horrible image will problably haunt me forever. And most likely would give a whole new meaning to Daenerys campaign to free the slaves, if we are to consider those poor babies as slaves.

It's worth notice this means the White Walkers, much like The Night's Watch, are indeed a brotherhood, all males given up by their father.

That, unlike the Night's Watch, they started out as innocents. Neither killers nor thieves, but newborns that would kill, steal and reap while the rest of the world remains oblivious to its imminent destruction.

But most important, The White Walkers started out as men and, as we know it, all men must die. Valar Morghullis.

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And on a side note: that "reveal" wasn't surprising at all. What did you think the white walkers did with the babies?

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Feed their zombies with them, obviously.

I mean, they are zombies and they haven't eaten so far since they were turned, so I figured the Walkers fed them with babies to get them walking until they could feed by themselves with grown people south of the Wall.
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There's too many to be "just" the male babies from Craster. Also as was already pointed out, they are too old. So I wonder if they can turn adults, too? How many are there? Do they have cities? Also: are there female whitewalkers? Otherwise their reproduction was completely dependent on humans (and that would suck for them).
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It actually makes sense:
  • if they are human, then they die too,
  • and if they die too, then they need new ones,
  • and if they need new ones, then that's why they go out every winter.
The White Walkers go out in order to reap the babies, slay the parents and use the dead for the babies's armies. Winter is not just for murder, the White Walkers are actually reproducing.

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Interesting reproduction cycle theory. But: what do they die of (except being stabbed with dragon glass, and I guess being burned by dragon fire also kills them)? Because I have never seen a white walker eat (do they need food?) They are immune to the cold which also excludes (logically) any microorganisms. I haven't read the books, maybe some stuff is explained there?
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I just assume they die of old age too. After all, they are born as men, and all men they must die.

Therefore Valar Morghullis applies to White Walkers too.
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Interesting scene given that its not taken from the books begging the questions, how fast do they age etc? Will we see a "cure"?
Is dragonglass the only thing that kills them? aren't they also vulnerable to Valyrian-steel blades like Longclaw? whatever the case, Jon Snow (and Sam) will slay them all.
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In the books, it was said they are vulnerable to Valyrian steel, though no chapter has actually shown a White Walker being killed by one, so the theory hasn't been proved yet.

On the show, however, no one has said anything about Valyrian steel yet and Sam killed a White Walker with dragonglass that he gave Bran last season finale.

I can only pray the Baby Walkers would come back to Craster's to avenge their mothers and kill those renegades themselves (this was never on the books, so I can't tell how it would end).
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I'm not sure we can go so far to say that all the Others started out as human babies, all we really know is that are capable of creating more of their kind from babies, sort of procreation.
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I'm thinking they all did because of what Sam told Jon about the first men in season 2: they went up so north of the wall because they were hiding from something, something they built a wall to keep them out too.

I'm thinking the White Walkers have always been taking babies, and the parents that refused to give their babies up built the wall.
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So does that mean that these white walkers were defeated a long time ago by the dragon glass , by why did the first men leave them in the snow? The white walkers are more of a threat then anybody else by their huge number also everything they touch becomes dead.
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I don't think they were defeated or there would be no point for The Wall or The Night's Watch: from what it looks like, the White Walkers were merely contained beyond the wildling territory.

Whatever it was, it must have happened such a long time ago the Night's Watch forgot it wasn't wildlings but White Walkers they were protecting the Realms of Men from...
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The White Walkers are implied to be the minions of the Dark God, the opposite of Rhallor and the enemy of the Light.

They may be transformed men, given horrifying form and great power, but they are likely agents of this "God" in contrast to the powers of Rhallor we have witnessed from Melisandre.
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I don't buy it because Beric Dondarion is dead, and he serves R'hllor too.

Both "Gods" deal in dead people, it just that the Baby Walkers army has more dead soldiers than R'hllor's army so far on the show.
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I've said it before, the series is really called "A Song of Ice and Fire"

Who sits on the Iron Throne is completely immaterial to the true story, the battle between R'hallor and the Night's King
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Hence why the race to sit on it was dismissed as a "game (of thrones)" since day one.

The idiots are fighting the wrong war.
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After watching the season episode 1 when ned stark killed his own man because he abandoned his post. I feel even more so the men are fearful of the White Walkers thats why you have the Craster use in the seven kingdoms. Its like a shameful episode in history of seven Kingdoms.
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I thought it was very interesting. As you say, it wasn't in the books, so the GOT creators must've checked with GRRM that it would be okay. I guess it's kind of a spoiler for the books.
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*SPOILER ALERT*
Rick Grimes & Darryl will take care of the White Walkers
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They'd be blue eyed corpses before they even try. The White Walkers aren't zombies, they are the creatures that create the zombies.
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It was a good scene. But what did people think they were using the babies for, they are ice cold so they weren't going to eat them. We knew that that there were two types of them, actual White Walkers and Wights. It is completely logical that they would have to find some way to bolster their ranks and taking Craster's boys was a great method of doing that. The real question however is how many to their have. There was what 14 individuals or things behind the king as he walked up to the ice table. They were arranged in something that looked like a counsel. So they are likely the administrators or rulers of their kind. Which had to have been there the whole time because there is always a big bad in these types of stories. For an army you need an officer class and you need and infantry, the Wights are the infantry and the WW's are the ones in charge.

Plus we knew that their was a big evil from Melisandre and R'hllor. The whole "night is dark and full of terrors" thing. If their is the magic of Melisandre and R'hllor then there is an opposite of that and that is what we likely saw.

Either way it is fun and it is going to lead the end of the series.
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I'm not sure Melisandre's God is one of the good guys, but just a manifestation that for each action there's an equal and opposite reaction.

I mean, they both deal in dead people, Beric Dondarion no different than the blue eyed corpses we've seen near The Wall since the pilot. The Shadow Man Melisandre gave birth to no less murderous than The White Walkers. The Human sacrifices no less monstrous than the "art" left for Mance Rayder.

It's like they are playing chess with the world as they know it. Both sides battling in corpses rather than souls.



The way I see it, only The Father, The Mother, The Warrior, The Maiden, The Smith, The Crone and The Stranger are the only ones that hint an offer of spiritual salvation.
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Is the Lord of Light 'good'? Hard to say. He seems like more of an Old Testament style God to me. The important thing is that his opponent is probably evil and the threat of the Others and co. imperils the whole world. Beric's done some bad stuff but he's no Big Bad. The Great Other needs to be thwarted and that's the role of the servants of the Lord of Light. Sounds sort of like Zoroastrianism to me. They will use their incredible power to protect the world. That makes them sort of good even though the Lord of Light hardly preaches morality.

As for the Seven well I don't think much of them. They've had no supernatural influence on the story so far and my view is they don't exist. They're a symbol of how out of touch the Andals are. On the other hand I'm not sure where the old Gods fit into all of this but at least they seem to have real power.
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I just can't trust R'hllor because Lucifer means Lightbringer. Plus, he deals in dead much like his counterpart, The White Walkers.

The Old Gods seem to deal in nature: the trees, the wind, the birds, etc. Much like the New Gods seem to deal in human roles: the role of the Father, the Mother, the Warrior, the Maiden, the Crone, the Smith, the Stranger. Neither one of them claims the bodies, for the roles aim to save the souls of the people that pray to them.

They are in the silence right before Ned died the first season, the birds that warned Sam and Gilly last season, the wind that "spoke" to Bran before his dreams did and even the sea that always seem to bring Davos home.
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Maybe SPOILERS. I agree with you that neither R'hllor nor the Walkers are good. I agree that The Seven might be the salvation. Which is frustrating because they have delayed/deviated from Bran and Arya's story lines, both of whom I think are going to end up being the representatives of the Seven. Both the Tree and what Arya runs into, I think are remnants of the old gods. But this is only a theory, the whole Song of Ice and Fire kind of indicates that it is going to be a battle between the light and dark. However the old gods could very well cleave off the winner.
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But the seven aren't the old gods.
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Technically, the Seven are the new Gods, and the trees plus other things would be the old ones.

Hence why Arya prayed to the old Gods and the New before Syrio taught her about the God of Death in season 1.
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Sorry I conflated Bran and his interaction with the trees which is a remnant of the old gods and the Seven. You are correct, the Seven are not the old gods. Thanks for the reminder.
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Its not spoiler as much as a fundamental truth of any religion: they care to save your soul, not claim your body.

Any "God" claims your mortal coil over your immortal soul its probablt not a true God.
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I WAS GLAD TO SEE "DARTH MAUL'S" PALE SKINNED COUSIN WHO TURNS BABIES INTO WHITE WALKERS.. I GUESS "EMBRACING DARKSIDE & TURNING PEOPLE" RUNS IN THE FAMILY ;)
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Everyone should use the force - for good or the dark side - once in their lifetime. I don't see why the White Walkers should be any different, or the baby walkers for that matter.
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Baby walkers- I like that.
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OK, so the babies are turned to white walkers. What happens to them next? do they grow up suddenly? or does it take them normal time to grow up to become members of WW army (i.e. years and years)? Or do they never grow up because they are no longer alive and remain babies with blue eyes which is no way useful for the WW army? I need some explanation here!
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Rule number one of science fiction/fantasy. Supernatural babies always age really quickly.
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This is true...
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I think, WW used magic so the child can grow up in the cold. Like the unsullied they are made into warriors. It might take years or else the WW would have attacked. They are building a army naturally.

I don't think they are slaves though, they were saved from carster.
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According to Osha and Bran's old nanny, The White Walkers only attack on winters.

I don't think they were sleep, for they have been taking Craster's babies since before Gilly was born, which means they have also done so all summer.
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Thus the "winter is coming". I will start reading the books after this season. Thanks for the info.
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It's on season 1, episode 4 to 9. Plus, "For the night is dark and full of terrors", courtesy of Melisandre since season 2.

Just imagine what it would be like the longest night of the coldest winter with those creatures roaming around...
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I think they grow as they transform, the scene just cut when the baby's eyes went ice blue. That doesn't mean the process has to end there.
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they remain as babies. they use them for catapult or something xD
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The next episode will be called Breaker of Babies :P
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White Walkers and Wights are 2 seperate things; White Walkers or 'Other' are those white-haired/skin icy guys who freeze everything around them when they come and as far as we know are only vulnerable to dragonglass/obsidian. Now Wights are just the thralls, people who are dead and then brought back to life and die by fire. So that baby is a true White Walker made from the source whereas dead men are just like halfbreeds. Just Sayin'
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Thanks for the clarification, I was beginning to wonder where the difference was long term.
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Is it possible that the White Walker who touched the baby is the Night's King. There are some people in the internet saying that he was wearing a crown, is it true?
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There has been some news related to that question but it's probably a spoiler. Read ahead at your own risk:


In HBO's promotional material for the episode they originally said that the White Walker at the end was indeed the Night's King. The information was later removed so it was either wrong (which I think is unlikely) or it shouldn't have been revealed.
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Thanks for the info, it seems to me that the White Walkers scene was taken out of Winds, guess the show is spoiling book-readers now.
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I just thought it was one of the babies brothers.

Like Melisadre once said: "For the night is dark and full of terrors"
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I think the white walker scene is going to be in Winds of Winter because George R R Martin has said many times that WoW will take us farther north than ever before. I'm not sure how yet because of the pov writing style but I don't think that scene was just made up by Dan & David. Either way as a book reader I loved it.. except the albino Darth Mal look-a-like!
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I was pretty excited to see the scene, as its the first one that hasn't been featured in the books, and it leads me to believe that it will relate to something that happens in future books, OR something that will happen in future seasons of the show if the show catches up to where the books are. It's also unclear as to why they needed to reveal it now (other than the fact that it explains where the babies go, but we've seen Craster put a baby out in the cold before and we didn't see what happened to it then. **Spoilers ahead, highlight to reveal** Perhaps it ties in with Cold Hands (who I thought the guy with baby was supposed to be, but I could be wrong, as he is described differently in the books), and maybe he will make an appearance at Craster's Keep.
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The answer to why they revealed the fate of Craster's babies now is an easy one. Craster is gone and this was his last born son. If it hadn't happened now it couldn't have happened at all. Since the books are so restrictive in their POV I'm prepare to give the show a little slack. Big events in the books are limited to how much is witnessed by the main characters. Maybe the show's system is better.
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Or, better yet, a completely new plot that will complement the books but will never be feaured in them.
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That's not unheard of - take Osha for example. GRRM diggs her on the show.
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And the Margaery from the show is how GRRM intended for his Margaery 5 years from now on the books.
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"What" instead of "how"
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I was quite excited to see what was going to happen to the baby.
First I thought the "person" walking towards him looked too whole/normal to being connected to the White Walkers ("A real human being? Up there? What's he doing there?").
But as he picked up the baby, and the face was clear to see, as well as what he was doing, my thoughts changed to: "Oh, hadn't expected that... interesting... a White Walker baby... they don't just rise from the dead? So they grow up, become adults and decay while still being alive... or what/how... hmmm... do they need food?"
This is why I chose the "Other" option. I'm looking forward to more White Walker storylines!
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Me too!
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I don't really mind the script writers diverging from the book as in the case of Bran and companions being taken to Craster's keep, as in other parts of the books. But, Jaime only arrived to King's Landing after Joff had died, and his left arm was not trained by Bronn either (Bronn was knighted, got married and was living a very hedonistic life to bother about Tyrion and even less, any Lanister.)

What really surprises me is that the White Walkers are still a mistery in the books. All we know so far from both books and TV series is that the people they attack become one of them. So, as much as this could be another free spirited interpretation to the book, it's so far fetched that could as well be interpreted as a spoiler of things to be explained in further books that have so far been unexplained by Martin.

Regarging the books, I think this was a filler episode. For the ones that have read them, I still wonder how all the drama between Daenerys, Barristan Selmy and Jorah Mormont was scraped for the script, since a lot of revelations regarding the history of both men, happened just before the end of the siege of Meereen in the books.
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It's not at all surprising that Bronn is the one training Jaime when the actor playing Ilyn Payne died and Bronn is a more major character. What will be really interesting is what happens with Bronn next. Will they deviate more from the books, will he have a role going forward.
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Will Jaime actually learn to fight without honor...as Lysa said to Bronn in season 1, when he fought for Tyrion on the show.
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And will Jaime be put in a position where he needs to fight without honour.
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All the more intriguing perhaps because of how reluctant he was to beat Ned Stark without honor, back in season 1.

Now Jaime may not have a choice if he must stay alive.
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you realise the tv series isn't going to completely follow the books and just bring the books to life right. they said many times that the books are just guide lines, they can do whatever they want.
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and not just that...but in previous episode, how they conjured those big ass catapults out of thin air. and i really miss strong belwas
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I guess the mysteryis what makes this scene all the more intriguing: we are literaly watching where the White WAlkers actually come from for the first time.
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It's cool because Martin already give hints that the Craster's sons becomes allied with the Others in someway. Gilly's mother says that the "boy's brothers are coming" to Sam.

A female White Walker existed at least. The Night's King married one. Not just males.

R'llhor is the god of life.
The Great Other is the god of death. Looks like his creations don't have the power to create life by their own. Nice thing, Martin.
The babies BECOME the Others. I believe they aren't slaves. I think they cannot be freed. They just become.
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I think they are different from the army of death, they just become. Like Mance once said: we are all meat to their army.

The White Walkers themselves are men: taken from their mothers, sold to "the Gods" and enslaved in a brotherhod in which there's no escape but the gift of death.

That links at least three plots from the books: Daenerys, Arya's faceless assassin dudes and The brotherhood of the Night's Watch. Therefore the show is, literally, spoiling the end of the books.
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No one can be enslaved in a "brotherhood".
It's a different concept. But I got your point :) "They follow the same objective".
But they are babies. Grow up being white walkers. They are no more human, I believe. Not slaves. Not obligated to do. The Great Other needs to have his followers too.
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I see it as a brotherhood because they are a band of brothers, all sons from the same father. I see it as enslavement because the babies didn't choose this any more than Grey Worm did.
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MILD SPOILER WARNING: This book-reader is slightly unsure of how much of tonight's episode actually occurred in the books, and so will be asking whether certain scenes were in the novels. The implications of my questions likely result in what I would describe as "mild spoilage" of future plot lines, with an emphasis on "mild" :)

To get on with it:

Correct me if I'm wrong: the final few scenes were NOT in the books, in any way shape or form, yes? As in, book readers and TV viewers were equally unprepared for:

  • Bran, Jojen, Hodor and Meera at Craster's Keep
  • The White Walker's journey north with the baby (which may represent as far north as has ever been witnessed, in book or show)
  • The fate of the child, apparently being "converted" to a White Walker
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The fate of the babies was never featured in any book.

Although Bran, Meera and Jojen never went near Craster's keep, it was on their way so I'll take it. Especially since it served as an introduction to what really happens to the babies once The White Walkers take them.
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SPOILER AHEAD...

In the books a certain Coldhands killed the desserter's from Craster's keep. But Bran only saw it through Summer's eyes. My guess is the the change in the show is: Coldhands will save Bran & friends by killing the desserters. This way he also gains their trust.
I think this change is actually a good idea since many people complain that Bran's storyline is a little dull in the show.

The White walker scene couldn't happen in the books, because there's no-one whose POV GRRM could use the narrate that.
But I guess that's something we will get in book 6, since GRRM promised that it will take us farther north than any book before, and White Walkers will play a more prominent role..
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Great idea. Please let it be Coldhands who saves Bran. It was bad enough that Sam told Jon he'd seen Bran, having Jon and Bran actually meet would ruin the show.
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The Lands of Always Winter will appear in book 6 :D
I think will be Stonesnake's POV. The guy was with Jon and Qhorin Halfhand, and seems to be the only one that can survive in Frostfang and far north by his own.
Alliser Thorne's POV it's a good choice too. He's beyond the Wall in a patrol. Or even Benjen Stark's POV.

Coldhands saving Bran from the desserters? Gods hear you, please.
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Right, everybody has forgotten about stonesnake, but GRRM woudn't have introduced this character just to let him disappear.
Maybe he gets one of those one-time/prologue POVs...^^
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I'd rather if Jon and the brothers get there in time to kill the renegades.

I'm already worried about Locke killing Jon, I can't handle the renegades killing Bran or Locke killing the half brothers
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mild spolier - highlight : nobody is killing bran, as u saw in trailers. he does come to the tree, and put his hand on it, remmber?
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@mori1bund: Locke is here to kill Bran and Rickon. At least that's why Bolton sent him to their bastard brother the last episode.

In a way, its better if Jon never gets to the renegades in time to save Bran. If only because, if the former brothers don't harm him, Locke will...which also was never on the books.
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Maybe Locke's role will be the one of Bowen Marsh in the books... especially at the end of book 5.
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Thanks for the clarification!

I want to emphasize what I said in a reply to my own post (wow, if that isn't the most conceited sentence ever written): I really like these changes. I think it's very, very smart to entwine Bran's storyline with that of Jon Snow and the Night's Watch, which is apparently what's happening.
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I should add that, if I'm correct (and I read Storm of Swords over ten years ago, so I could very well be wrong), I applaud the changes that have been made: Entwining Bran's storyline with that of Jon Snow and the Night's Watch is a fantastically intelligent move by the show creators, even if it represents the first major diversion of the story from the novels.
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By the way, the third option was supposed to be "small little monster", not "moster". My bad.
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