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WARNING: The following contains spoilers from Sunday's episode of Game of Thrones, "Breaker of Chains."

Of all the troubled relationships on Game of Thrones, Cersei (Lena Headey) and Jaime Lannister's (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) incestuous relationship is probably one of the most disturbing. But the HBO series took it to new heights during Sunday's "Breaker of Chains" by including a scene in which Jaime rapes Cersei next to the cold, dead body of their son Joffrey. 

George R.R. Martin, who wrote the Song of Ice and Fire books on which the series is based, has responded on his blog to the outcry from many fans upset by the difference between page and screen.

In the novels," he explained, "Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

Martin goes on to say that since Jaime has been back for several weeks in the show's timeline, "neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan [Weiss] & David [Benioff] played the sept [scene] out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection."

He also notes that the scene was originally written from Jaime's point of view, but because of the nature of TV, viewers are not privy to any of the characters' inner thoughts and feelings. "If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, " Martin said, " it might have left a somewhat different impression—but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline."


Were you upset by Game of Thrones' controversial take on the scene?


Previously Aired Episode

AIRED ON 6/26/2016

Season 6 : Episode 10

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to the people still throwing a spaz because of this c'mon people I don't think that's the worst thing we've seen on TV or GOT. Sit back and watch I mean no one is forcing anyone to watch the show in the first place. If it's too gross try watching another show on another channel simple as that.
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I already wrote my lengthy "justification" for the scene in the episode review (short answer is: it does work, and makes sense, it's horrible but so is PLENTY of stuff on the show. Just be thankful that you don't have to watch a flashback to confirm whether the Mountain actually did what he's been accused of...or depending on what kind of viewer you are, maybe you'll get still root for such a thing being shown?).

In the end, I've seen some very obvious and expected push back from a lot of facebook friends about this, and are kind of using it as a springboard to talk about somewhat unrelated things or make massively overarching justifications to just stop watching the show altogether. I don't know where these people have been over the last several seasons, but while it's a bit odd as to them changing it from the book, I hardly even needed this explanation to be ok with it, The scene worked and made a lot of sense given how these characters feel about each other.

Complicated and forecful hate sex between clandestine sibling lovers after both have been through major trauma doesn't seem completely out of the realm of normality, especially for Westeros. If dead children hanging from sign posts doesn't make you want to turn away forever, then I don't know why this should.

I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm glad they changed things the way they did, but aside from some obvious discomfort (which I'm no stranger to from watching this show already), I think it was a powerful scene that hammered a few points home, and while continue to as the show goes on. That's not why you stop watching a show, it's why you obsessively do so all the more.
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People get murdered every week, it's a savage world, woman gets raped or people get killed at a wedding and everyone goes nuts. Nobody mentions cannabalism. It must be ok to slaughter a little boys parents and eat them. The Red Wedding was in national newspapers before it was on TV saying how it contains the most gory/violent scenes in TV history, and it was simply Catelyn Stark getting her throat slit, I was mega disappointed. Not that I like gory violence for the sake of it, but if it's in the papers as being the worst on TV it should be. Same thing happened a couple of weeks ago with Vikings and the Blood Eagle, was meant to be goriest scene in TV history and it was naff all, you didn't see most of it, it was more suggestion and the reactions of the characters. A really sick/violent/gory scene was in Da Vincis Demons this week, some Incan dude smashed a guys skull to pieces and you see it all, far more gory than GOT and VIkings, but it wasn't in the paper.
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You mean cannibalism? Yeah, the thenns pulled off some really nasty shit this week but nobody seems to bother... lol
And yes, Da Vincis Demons took the trophy for most graphic scene of violence home this week. I felt set back to the good ol' times of Spartacus for that matter - but no reviews here and else no reaction to that scene at all. This commotion about GoT's scene is so blown out of proportion, it's ridiculous.
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It was definitely disturbing the fact that they were having sex next to their dead son's body but I distinctively remember Cersei kissing Jaime mid sex/rape. I think she was saying no due to the fact that their son's corpse was right there beside them and not because she didn't want to sleep with Jaime.
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Yes and in the books, she was saying no at first for that very reason.
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I haven't read the books. In the books, does this scene read like rape? Without spoiling, does it have consequences later
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Like most certainly found the scene vulgar and unecessary. , what was the point and what were the showrunners thinking. Anyway I guess Jaime isn't as reformed as many believed him to be, he is still very much a Lannister
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"Anyway I guess Jaime isn't as reformed as many believed him to be, he is still very much a Lannister"

Which may be precisely why the scene is necessary. Jaime is one of the most morally-grey characters in the books, and without scenes like this, it's very tempting to cast him as just the misunderstood hero.
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I don't say that rape is something good...but i have to say, i am glad it happened. Cersei needed to put on her place again. She was thinking like she was goddess and untouchable if she didn't want it....now she has seen, that also she is just a woman.
If i look at it from Jaime's side...since he got back, she hasn't had sex with him or didn't really let him touch her. He is the father of their dead son and been her brother and lover probably his entire life, He went trough hell to get back to her and home, to what...to a icecold bitch who wouldn't even look at him for what...missing some fingers??
Still rape is never ok in my believe, but in tv world and this series it was ok that it happened...
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I'm not calling it rape because technically Cersei was offering sex to get Jaime to kill Tyrion (judging by the promos, the next target would be Sansa).

I'm not putting it in capital letters because I'm not twelve, and I would only be disappointed if Jaime actually kills - or even attempts to kill - his brother.

Cersei has Tywin, Lancel, her fiance (Loras is still engaged to her), Tommen and the Small Council on her side. All Tyrion really has is Jaime, for not even Bronn or Pod can help him this time around.
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I think this scene showed us no one's either completely good or bad. All people, whether they're fictive or not, do good and bad things. Some do more good or bad than others, but nevertheless we're all capable of both and so is Jaime. This doesn't necessarily conflict with his redemptive story line.

Technically I'd call this rape, although if Cersei was having the same thoughts as she was having in the books she didn't really mind at all even though she was resisting Jaime. I don't think it's fair to judge Jaime by this one act. Cersei is a spiteful character who uses sex to manipulate not only Jaime but all men she thinks might be useful to her (we'll get to see more of this if the show runners will follow the books.) It was very wrong of Jaime to continue his advances when Cersei said no, however the b**** had it coming.

I'm just really disappointed in this scene because it wasn't following the books and it was just plainly trying to stir up some cheap and simple controversy by having Jaime allegedly "raping" Cersei next to their dead son's body.

The writers of this episode did a really crappy job anyway on this episode because over half of the scenes were filler which do not even exist in the books in any form. I think this episode is the worst GoT episode to date.
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What the hell? Thanks for putting the big spoiler in the title of the article, Kaitlin. Your "WARNING: The following contains spoilers from Sunday's episode of Game of Thrones, "Breaker of Chains""-disclaimer sure helped a lot there.
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"You’re a hateful woman." - Jaime Lannister
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This site reviews current episodes of TV shows. If it's aired, it's not really a spoiler here. If you can't handle that, turn off the internet until you catch up.
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If you can't handle spoilers, perhaps turn off the internet until you catch up?
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You could be stupid, but I don't think you are. What you are is spiteful and interested only in yourself.

There is a world of difference between what Kaitlin posted in her title and what you posted below. If she were going to post an article on a current topic related to GoT, she gave the amount of info in the title that's necessary to tell us what the article is about, but she gave no names, circumstances, timeline. It's not really a spoiler to say there was a rape in Westeros at some point.

What you did, on the other hand, was a deliberate attempt to ruin the speculation of all viewers regarding the future of a number of major characters that people are invested in. Each episode review has been careful to say "NO BOOK SPOILERS" and there's a vast difference in talking about what's been aired and what is in upcoming scripts. You are NOT new here, and there is no excuse for what you did. It was hateful and shows a lack of consideration for anyone as long as you can make your point. It violates Terms of Use, and the site would have every right to block you.
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Perhaps you're new here, but tv.com is usually considerate when it comes to spoilers. Otherwise, why would they even bother putting a spoiler disclaimer inside the actual article? My point is, when they set the precedent that they don't post articles with big spoilers in the title, they shouldn't suddenly start doing it.
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I don't get your complaint, what is the spoiler you speak of? There is nothing from the book or anything from unaired episodes in the title or the actual story. If you mean spoiling episodes already airing then why in the world would you be on a TV site reading about it if you haven't seen it? I think with the invention of the internet common sense was erased from some human DNA. Wow, just Wow!
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Sorry but this is a TV news site. As Stanking said: if you don't want to see any spoilers, either don't come here or don't look at any of the news posts. I avoid all websites if there's something I want to keep spoiler-free.

And before you complain again, yes it really is THAT simple.

But you didn't miss much, really. Wasn't much of a spoiler, to be fair.
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MAJOR BOOK SPOILER POSTED BELOW. UNTIL THE POST IS REMOVED, BE WARNED.

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Now you're just being an ass, and you know it. I said "If it's aired...". Your post is the kind that could get you banned.
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I didn't see it as a gratuitous rape scene at all. I saw two complicated characters with a complicated history who were reacting together to the tragedy of losing their son...as horrible of a person as he was. It's rather hilarious that such sensitive people are even watching this show, given everything else that's already happened.
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Its not about the sensitivity aspect of the scene its the fact that they totally detracted from Jaime's character and the man he is trying to be. Jaime is suppose to be on a serious redemptive arc, he hates rape and even risked himself (and his hand) in order to save a women from being raped. This scene is wildly different from the books in where the only thing Cersei is worried about is getting caught (and that its inappropriate considering Joff's dead body is right there/ they're in a holy sept) but she wants him nonetheless and even helps guide him inside her, telling him once in that he's home. I for one was a lil jarred by the change and would've preferred something more passionate but hey David and Dan must've made that decision for a reason. So yes its more Jaime's character development or lack of that from what I see is more of a concern to people.
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I agree. You don't watch Game of Thrones (read A Song of Ice and Fire) and not expect someone, somewhere to rape a dead baby...
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And you certainly shouldn't be 'offended' by any content in this show! Especially after three seasons :)
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I've seen a lot of comments about how this scene ruined all the work the show has done regarding Jaime. HBO and GRRM have not devoted time to showing Jaime's growth as a character and his progressive redemption. What they HAVE shown is that he views himself much nobler than he looks from the outside. What this scene does is point out that how Jaime views himself, and how he really is aren't the same.
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The thing that was upsetting for me was the fact they have invested some time in making Jaime seem much better. His explanation for why he killed the Mad King, going back for Brianne etc. was setting him up to be a much more likeable character than the arrogant, incestuous, child murderer he was for the first two seasons. But that scene kinda ruined all the progress he'd made. It would have been very different if she wasn't protesting so much. But now he's gone from being seemingly redemptive to just plain bad again. Which makes the next thing he does either much more justified or another turn around. It will depend on how they play it.
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if you're upset by it, GOOD, if you now don't like Jamie again, GOOD, if you're confused about if Jamie is good or evil, GOOD. THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE WHOLE SCENE
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And the point of using capitals to emphasise something that was already obvious? Of course it was the point. It is why they make scenes like that. My point was the reason why it was disturbing, when the entire show is full of disturbing things which never got even half as much of a reaction.
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Truth be told, I was upset by the fact Cersei offered it so that Jaime would kill Tyrion. Just because Jaime didn't sleep where she wanted to doesn't change that he slept with her because of what she wanted him to do: kill Tyrion.

The sheer possibility that Jaime could do that after Bran upsets me more than anything else.
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Yea, she tends to do that a lot in the books like whenever she wants something from him or to kill someone for her she temps him with sex
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Taena, the Kettleblacks, cousin Lancel and so many others that didn't appear on the show...
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Oh man that lady lol. I can't wait for her and Qyburn to become good friends though,.. Not in that way of course but in their lil way
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...or the guy with the ships (those may be on their way to Braavos by now). I always liked Qyburn and Cersei on the books, they had a nice Frankenstein bride thing going on
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The television series, as well as the books, are works of fiction. If people find either of them upsetting for some reason, perhaps they should not watch/read them. This entire discussion is the creation of a tempest in a teapot.
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I find a lot of events in fiction upsetting, but that doesn't mean I don't want to continue reading or watching them. It breeds discussion.
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Yeah you could tell She was kinda OK with it. I mean, if she wasn't, SHE would have put up a hell of a more fight.
(& I'm talking Cersei, not women in general)
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The whole first series had Daenerys Targaryen being raped like every other episode until she decided to start enjoying it.
Got is full of not nice people theres also lots of killings in that show. Shock fucking horror right.
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Look at the flowers, Joffrey.
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I don't see why they are overreacting so much or why GRRM should even bother to address the show( get back to writing pleaseeeee if it's even for a second more lol).

I mean sure in the books it was a bit different, even the scenario of it. People act as if it was full on rape. Act like if this is going to have any repercussions towards how Cersei or Jamie continue to act( or deviate from the book). It was just Lannister on Lannister sex. Weird and uncomfortable.

I bet nothing big will come of it and it was mostly Jamie trying to be acknowledged even by force because everyone, except Tyrion, was being a dick to him. Nothing will come of it. Cersei won't grow weak because of it. Jamie won't cry a bunch because of it. It happened and they'll just move on with their usual snark and hate.
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Not a watcher of the show, but feel compelled to put this out there:

GoT is pretty famous (or infamous) for its gratuitous portrayal of sex and violence (the reasons why I have stayed away from watching the show). If you are so bothered by scenes like this, why are you watching a show that is famous for them? I know that sounds really judgemental, but I'm honestly asking. It's not like we don't know what GoT is, it's not like we're surprised when takes a turn toward deprave, it's not like we're surprised when their "good" characters do bad things...

Anyone who watches tv knows that they have to sometimes take the good with the bad, and they won't like or approve of everything depicted.
With GoT, I heard about it, read about it, and decided it wasn't for me. If these kinds of things disturb you so much, maybe it isn't for you either.

You can go on watching and complaining every time something happens that upsets you, but it won't change the show from what it is, it won't somehow undo what's been done-- but you can choose not to watch, and if enough people chose not to watch, GoT would have to reassess itself .

I would never advocate these kinds of scenes in anything. I find them distasteful and unnecessary. But I don't see the point in complaining about it while still supporting the show that depicts it.

Just some thoughts from an unbiased, objective perspective.
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This is a well thought out post for those that it applies to but I do not believe that is the case for the majority of those irked by the scene. We are not disturbed by the dark nature of things so much as surprised that they made a key change.

The nature of the events is dark and creepy but it is the change from book events (in which the sex is consensual) to the show (in which it is rape). This is not mainly disturbing for the obviously more twisted new nature but because it is a detriment to the character of Jaime and his progression.

I think this post about G.R.R.Martin's view on the change illustrates the same thing that most feel, they are surprised by the change and currently find it disappointing but perhaps it will build into something more as the show progresses.
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I'll read Martin's comments again, but even he didn't seem all that disturbed by it. His comments sounded more like an explanation than a complaint. At least to me.

But I can definitely understand not liking these kinds of changes to the source material.
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I think the tricky thing and a large part of the controversy of this topic is that the book readers (or in G.R.R.Martin's case the author) are somewhat kinder towards the scene because they stick to the book Jaime who didn't perform rape but solely engaged in consensual (but very creepy) sex.

Don't get me wrong, the show left nothing that can be defended but it is hard to view it the same as show-only fans when you know it is a change.
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Pssh, it was no big deal. The show is full of "controversial" things because it's a show that doesn't pull punches, shows serious drama. And although she protested somewhat (she was saying no) but she did kiss him back several times. Their relationship is complicated and of all the violent things this show has shown, I didn't find this one particularly disturbing.
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Were you upset by Game of Thrones' controversial take on the scene?

YES.

Does it matter?

NO.

Next subject please.
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It's so horrible Cercei gets "raped" and the show all of a sudden hates only women with Theon walking around dickless, Jamie handless, Rob headless, Tyrion "freedomless", John clueless. Gimme a break. Yes, it's a departure from the books, but let's see how their characters get portrayed in the upcoming episodes - the result should be the same, no more Jamie + Cercei.
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"All of a sudden...?"

If folks are complaining that GoT hates women, then they haven't been paying attention because if that's they're focus, there's A LOT of material prior to this rape scene from which to draw that conclusion.
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Luckily there have also been many texts and discussions GOT empowers the female characters.
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It was highly disturbing but I figured they knew what they were doing with the characters and their arcs. The upsetting part for me is the comments made by the director stating that "it was consensual by the end". Nope, there's no such thing as "consensual by the end". She said no. Repeatedly. He said "I don't care" and did it anyway. That's rape. And even more upsetting than that is the fact that so many people seem to think that she "deserved" to be raped because she's a "b****", or that "she and Jaime have a screwed-up relationship so that's normal for them", or that "she slept around so who cares" or who claim that "he forced himself on her but he didn't 'rape' her".
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I think a lot of these reactions are caused not by the show's depiction of it but because those saying these things know that in the books it was consensual and not rape.

Those that watch only the show have a clear view on it, those who read the books are trying to somehow justify it because they know Jaime is a great character, who doesn't have rape tarnish his story in the books.

I honestly do no think the showrunners expected it to be seen as rape the way it was. Do not mistake me, I think it was clearly rape the way they showed it and thus will not offer the weak justifications you quote. But remember that some are viewing it from a different angle because they know the book Jaime who didn't rape anyone (not that he is otherwise perfect).
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I read the books. And it was still painfully clear to me that it was rape. I discussed it with a male friend who has also read the books and who was considerably more upset than I was by the fact that they had made Jaime do this. But he never questioned that what we saw in the show was rape.
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As I said, I agree it was rape in the TV show, however in the books it was certainly not, from the book version of the scene:

"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair.

(I never questioned whether it was rape in the show, as I posted before "Do not mistake me, I think it was clearly rape the way they showed it".)
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I can't wait to see how people react when Cersei has to do her walk... If you know what I mean
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As I mentioned in my previous reply, I read the books so I know how GRR Martin wrote the scene. And I never said you were questioning that it was rape but you said I should consider that (some) book readers are trying to justify it because they are seeing it from a different angle. I just don't buy that. They saw the scene. Cersei said no. Jaime said "I don't care" and he forced her. That's rape. The fact that they can't see that is what I find upsetting. And scary.
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I don't understand why it surprises people when it comes to this show. It has never been realistic for the time period, not even if it was difficult for women back then, but this show is very unrealistic in many ways + it is perverted for the pervertedness' sake and always needing to show naked women. It's pathetic and it's only meant to sell and create headlines, which they did again by adding another fucked up sex scene. I just wonder how they will try to shock people in the future when everyone is immune to the rape-everywhere and orgies and incest... How can they top this? Because they always have to try and push the boundaries a little further. It sickens me. Everything about these books and show is overrated crap.
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This does not occur on Earth, but an Earth-like planet where dragons exist.This is implied more than stated, as it is in most fantasy literature.
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Do not watch it, then.
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Timeeeee peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeriod?!!!!!11111!!!!!111! Reeeeealistic!?!?!1111
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I don't understand why anyone thinks that was a rape, it was a disturbing scene sure, Jamie forced things initially, but it wasn't rape, she wanted it just as bad and that was pretty obvious, she just didn't want to do it right next to their dead son which is why she was saying this is wrong, do you guys know how to interpret tv? lol I just feel sorry for peoples stupidity in thinking that was a rape, seriously.
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I'm going to stand by what I said, it was not rape. Rape is when one person does not want to partake in a sexual act what so ever. She clearly wanted to, she even wanted to in the last episode, she just isn't because she either fears people finding out or she feels remorse for what she has done, or she realized that incest is wrong or whatever reason, add to that the her son just died, scratch that, THEIR son just died, she didn't want to do it right then and there in front of his dead body and Jamie forced his way (I even stated that in my original comment). She had mixed feelings about it is as far as I would go, I'd be willing to say it's somewhere in the grey area between rape and consensual but that's it. Even the director or writer or somebody said it wasn't a rape, so I'm just judging what I see on the screen. I don't think it was meant to come off as a rape, it didn't come off as a rape to me when I was watching it, therefore it is not a rape, that is my logic.
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Allow me to add one more thing, maybe the most important thing. Cersei asked for it, maybe not asked for it, but she definitely offered it, in exchange for him killing Tyrion, she implied that's what she was going to do for him to kill him, maybe she didn't want to do it right then and there, but Jamie took her up on the offer immediately
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Oh, and I'm talking in the game of thrones universe, not in our real life world, just so nobody gets it twisted again.
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Try to do exactly what Jaime did on your next date and let us all know how long it took for the police to arrive, provided you have internet access in jail. Though on the upside, I'd imagine that while in jail, you'll come to appreciate the "subtle" nuances about what is or is not rape.
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okay come on now, because I'm discussing scenes in a tv show that means that I condone acting like that in real life or worse yet would even do something like that, gtfo immediately with that rebuttal
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This is fiction. And acting. Not rape.
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So, if it's fiction and acting, there's nothing for you to find disturbing, right? Of course, that wasn't your argument...

"She wanted it just as bad and that was pretty obvious"

A fictional account of a very real act that happens with disturbing regularity because there are too many men out there stupid and self absorbed enough to have zero comprehension that no means no.
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A fan of blurred lines huh?
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Yeah, no. It was totally rape.
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In that case, I'm curious what you think about what I wrote in reply to myself...
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Indeed, from our perspectives, but I'm sure this is their "normal" behavior, she likes it and he likes it and they keep going back for more, which means from their perspective, it's just normal sex again. They simply understand each other, even if it's sick or strange.
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But yeah, rape is rape.

Relationship status "Complicated"
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She repeatedly said 'Stop' and was pushing him away still at the end of the scene. How is that not rape?
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Read what I wrote in reply to myself and what Phoenix said, there's reasons behind her saying "stop"
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It doesn't matter what her reasons were. It doesn't matter if she 'secretly wanted it'. None of that matters. She said stop. She said no. She pushed him away. In the book, she says something along the lines of 'No, Jaime, not here,' so clearly she's saying that they shouldn't do it there, not that she's saying no to the sex itself. THAT scene is a lot more complex. The scene in the tv show is black and white. She said no. He ignored her. That is rape. It doesn't matter if it's a tv show, how does that matter? There are not different rules for rape for a tv show versus real life. If someone, anyone, says no to sex, and they are then forced, that is rape. Do you really think that what we are shown on tv doesn't influence society? Do you think saying to the people watching it 'No, that's not rape because they've had sex before/she secretly wanted it/she's a horrible person/etc etc etc' is respectful to the people who have gone through that kind of event? The most upsetting thing about it to me was that I loved Jaime's character, and he's been ruined for me now. But now that I've gone online the thing that upsets me is seeing people say that wasn't rape. It was. Anyone who thinks it wasn't... I mean, I just don't understand their reasoning.
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First off, Jaime pushed Bran out the window because he was protecting his family. Yes, it was a shitty thing to do. Yes, he's a terrible human being. But there was REASONING behind it, and that reasoning was his love and protection of his family. The rape has changed that for no reason that I can see. Also, I didn't say that I liked him as a person, I said I liked his CHARACTER. I like complex characters. Him raping the person he loves the most in the world does not make sense with his character.
Secondly, (because these are two different points. I am not angry at the show for showing a rape scene. I am annoyed that they made a character rape another character when it doesn't make sense for that to happen.) I don't think it's terrible that scenes that are shown on Game of Thrones are on tv. I'm not squeamish. I don't look away at violent scenes. I don't believe video games cause violence. I am not against rape scenes being shown on tv, you obviously did not read my post. I said that what YOU said was wrong, telling people that was not rape when it clearly was.
There is no 'grey area' between rape and consensual. There is consensual sex, and there is rape. That's it. As soon as she said stop it became rape.
To be frank I'm glad you're not going to reply anymore because I think reading your posts is killing my brain cells. You think I'm an idiot? Don't worry, the feeling is entirely mutual.
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I'm not going to be nice anymore, I explained it a bunch of times already.

Sequence of events:

Cersei: Kill Tyrion
Jamie: What!? He's my brother!
Cersei: I'll fuck you again if you kill him
Jamie: OK, I'll take that right now
Cersei; No, wait, stop, I changed my mind

THAT'S NOT RAPE! IT IS SOMETHING IN THE GREY AREA BETWEEN RAPE AND CONSENSUAL. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT REASONING, YOU'RE EITHER BEING CLOSED MINDED OR STUPID. I SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN REAL LIFE IT WOULD BE RAPE IF CERSEI FILED CHARGES, YOU AGAIN FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REAL LIFE AND FICTION. AND SHE DIDN'T SECRETLY WANT IT, SHE ASKED FOR IT RIGHT THEN AND THERE, AND YES I AM YELLING AT YOU.

The fact that you're upset over a scene in a tv show and started talking about influence on society (like murder, and burning people alive, and chopping heads off, and killing babies and all that shit doesn't influence society and is perfectly ok) and the fact that you're so gullible that you actually started to like Jamie and ignored his bad including pushing a kid out the window with the intent to kill says all I need to know about you. Kill all the kids you want, but don't ever rape anyone, cause that's where I draw the line for liking and hating you, that's what you sound like.

I'm not arguing with stupid people anymore, this is my last reply here, have a nice day.
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It doesn't matter what reasons were behind her saying stop...if someone says "stop" and is fighting you off, it's rape...I'm a little worried you don't seem to understand this. You saying that because it didn't strike you as rape when you were watching it means it wasn't rape makes me even more worried. As does the fact that you say because she wanted to have sex before, it means it wasn't rape this time around.
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@sniperelite Interesting that I can't respond to your newest comments...sorry, but I thought we were having this conversation in the real world, not in the lake believe world of GOT. If you want to say that consent is not important on GOT, obviously it isn't. If you want to say Jamie's actions makes sense in the world of GOT, fine. What you said is that you couldn't understand why anyone would see that scene as a rape scene. Seeing as how the viewers DO live in the real world, in the real world it is rape...even in your own response you seem to acknowledge it is rape by stating "I'm going to force you to have sex right now". I really don't understand how you can type that and not call what happened rape. Whether you're bothered by it is a separate issue. I mean, it is GOT. If anyone is really bothered by that scene they are watching the wrong show. But you can't seem to even acknowledge it was rape in the first place.

P.S. TV viewing comprehension...that made me chuckle a bit I must admit.
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I think you, like 90% of the people here fail to understand the difference between real life and game of thrones universe. In real life, it would be rape, it would be a crime if someone is saying stop over and over if that person decided to file charges. What do you think we're talking about here? A news article? Or Jamie & Cersei? An incest couple known for lying, murdering and a whole bunch of other shit.

Stop trying to act like I'm an idiot or some sort of rapist defender by saying you're worried about me. I'm definitely worried about you for not understanding the fundamental difference between real life and fiction.

Also you seem to lack basic reading comprehension and maybe tv viewing comprehension. Cause I never once used her wanting to have sex with him BEFORE as a reason. SHE WANTED TO DO IT RIGHT THERE. Here's the sequence of events:

Cersei: Kill Tyrion
Jamie: What!? He's my brother
Cersei: I'll fuck you again if you kill him
Jamie: You're an evil bitch, I'm going to force you to have sex right now.

I said above it's something in the grey area between rape and consensual cause they both wanted it clearly. And for the last time, this is not REAL LIFE.
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Were you upset by Game of Thrones' controversial take on the scene?

Nope

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In the books there is a seriously significant result of the after sex/rape that changes the whole dynamic of how things are. Perhaps the runners of the show wanted it to be much more visceral so that it resonates with the viewer. Perhaps this version of Jaime had to do an act that even he finds despicable in order to get past something that has been a significant part of his entire life. I am not sure it is just a theory. I just wonder if the result of this will be the same as it was in the book.
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If your issue is how different this was from the text, please read the passage in the book again. It seems to me we have confirmation bias going on. It was rape in the book. She said "no" and physically tried to beat him away but "he never heard her" and just kept at his need for sexual gratification until she finally consents. Why is it that it magically became consensual because after all those "nos" it finally became yes? Messed up.

Jaime is not all of a sudden a "white knight" stereotype. He is a deeply flawed and damaged person. The whole point of this dance is to put away all of those romantic notions. People on the road to reform have relapses, especially when they are around those influences that shaped them into what they were. The absolutely sick and dysfunctional nature of their relationship has its roots in gender power issues, especially for Cersei. This is happening in a vacuum for us. I mean what are you basing your knowledge of their sexual relationship on? Last time we saw them having sex Jaime threw Bran out the window. Jaime is not a serial rapist. As far as we know in both book and show this is the only time it ever happened at one of the most messed up moments it could ever be possible to experience.
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yeah... mg... the guy have 3 childrens with his SISTER!... and we have people shocked with that "rape" escene?... WTF!.. xD..
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It was too much, in the book the sex was consensual not forced. We get it in that time it was hard to be a woman but must every woman in the show be raped or threatened of rape! As a woman it really bothers me. And it goes against Jamies character, Jamie loves Cercei and does everything for Cercei I don't see him raping her. And it was RAPE! She did not want it to happen and under no circumstance is that right and he was not justified in ANY way! Seriously stop with the extreme abuse of woman in the show!
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Also stop abusing men in this show please! Enough already!

We should be the directors right!?

No more abuse in GOT!!
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I wasn't upset that there was rape on the show; we already saw Dany's forceful wedding consummation in season 1 (ep1?). I was a little bewildered because the scene, while still creepy, was so different in the books. Jaime has changed since he pushed bran out that window, and especially after his time with Brienne, I wouldn't expect him to rape Cersei. Even if he had been back for a while, I could see Cersei wanting comfort and yielding to a desire to be with him, despite the inappropriate place and time, so I don't think her complete refusal was necessary to the story.
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Dany's forceful wedding consummation bothered me in the TV show since that was changed from the novel (where Kal Drogo didn't force Dani and it makes their love story plausible). The Jaime-Cersei rape scene doesn't feel true to Jaime's developing character, either. It's a violent world and rape is part, but these two instances seem like missteps.
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Thank the seven gods cause wow I was impressed and disappointed at the same time. Oh well it was a shocking scene and of course the books and the tv show can't be equal
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GRRM: "I will explain this whole matter! The explanation is coming! It'll be great! But first, look at all these beautiful, dangly, incandescent wieners!"
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George R.R Martin must be furious now..... pray to god so that the creators of this show wont share the fate same as robb stark or joffrey baratheon!
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No. And this again proves why the novels are superior to the series.
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In the books Cerci sleep around all over the place (including Jamie)
to further her schemes.she uses her body and sex as a weapon
but they can not show that in out PC tv
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This is essentially what I said over in Tim's review - the whole scene didn't make much sense in the show, given that Jaime had already been back for a little while.
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This is a major scene in what has been so far a rather calm new season, so my take is, there are going to be more changes in comparison to the books coming.
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Jaime has had quite the character development over the past season or so. He went from being someone only in it for himself to someone who risked his life (and his sword hand) to save Brienne from being raped and killed. It feels like all of his positive development was negated on Sunday's episode. I can understand that show is different from the book, but taking something consensual and turning it into a rape only serves to ruin the character. In the books, the scene was creepy and incestuous, but a consensual act of the love they have (or had) for each other. The show turned it into a brother/lover getting tired of respecting his sister/lover's need for distance and raping her next to the body of their murdered son because he was sick of waiting for her to come around. I've been able to accept almost all of the changes from book to show - things have to be different in some cases because it's just not feasible to keep them the same. But the two consensual-sex-turned-rape scenes? There is absolutely no reason for them to have done that to Drogo/Dany and Jaime/Cersei.
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Jaime is obviously not a good person, he never was, he's has no problem pushing small children to their deaths, etc etc... but he has expressed his hatred for rape. He lost his hand in trying to keep Brienne from being raped, and I'm pretty sure he was upset by King Aerys raping his wife (I can't really remember that, it's been a long time since I read the books). So even though he's a horrible person, it was weird that he raped Cersei, which is why I understand why people are a bit upset by the scene. It didn't come across as consensual at all.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about it changing Jaime's storyline too much. The directors say it wasn't supposed to be rape, so they probably won't be treating it as if it was rape in episodes to come. Cersei won't be acting like a rape victim, and Jaime won't be acting guilty of rape. Business as usual in Westeros!
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Didn't seem like rape to me. Reluctant, at first, but consensual. Never even crossed my mind, till I saw this article, that he was raping her.

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Don't forget incest.
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There's something very wrong with you if you thought the portrayed scene wasn't rape. What does a rape scene look like to you, then?
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I perceived it as consensual until Jaime said, "I don't care." Cersei's a bitch so it's not a surprise to me that she'd refuse, then admit, then refuse again. Like Martin said, "She's just as hungry for him..." which, to me, means that she wanted it at first, then decided not since they were right next to Joffrey's dead body. So calm down...KellyHiggins2 is not the only one who didn't think it was rape at first.
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I fast-forwarded through most of the scene, so I barely caught enough to realize it was a rape. Honestly, I don't care that Jaime raped Cersei. Rage against me as you like, but this was coming for a long time. Jaime is a terrible person who thinks he loves her, and she has been both whipping him into a frenzy and giving him the cold shoulder and then using her body to convince him to do stuff for her (like avenge Joffrey). Of course he raped her. This is essentially the recipe for rape. Also, if any character in the history of anything deserved to be raped it was Cersei Lanister for murdering people, using sex as a weapon to get men to do what she wants, encouraging her monstrous offspring, and just generally being a megalomaniac, conniving, murdering, poisonous presence to everyone around her. As they say, live by the sword, die by the sword. Should Jaime have done it? Of course not. Is it shocking or disturbing that he did? Not really. Also, he's still my favorite character. I don't really care if he's a rapist. He was already a child murder and a back-stabber. How exactly does this make him worse? He's still the most interesting person to watch. And the most realistic. The fact that he is both noble and disgustingly ignoble makes him more interesting than Cersei, Danaerys, or the Starks.

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You're fast-forwarding through Game of Thrones?
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I fast forward through everything. How else would I have time to watch everything? Plus, is it really necessary to watch a full-length sex scene? Is there some artistic value I'm missing? If so, I need to re-watch all of Strike Back.
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Unless you're in a contest to have to have partially watched as many TV episodes as possible, it doesn't make sense to fast-forward through an amazing show to have time for more mediocre ones. Just stop watching some of the bad shows.
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Is there another way to get through it?
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I wasn't shocked at the scene because I have read the books and know what these characters (esp. The Lannisters) are capable of, none of them deserve sympathy, they are all terribly, terribly flawed people. Just as well they pay their debts as they just keep racking them up!
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So basically, attempted child murder is just fine as long as you don't rape someone.

Holy shit my mind is on meltdown.

I don't condone rape EVER, but why are people surprised when despicable people do terrible things? If the guy is capable of casually murdering a child (attempted) then I'm sure his road to redemption is going to be a pretty bumpy ride.

This is a classic case of people romanticizing a scoundrel and opening themselves to a world of hurt. Jamie's time with Brienne's story arc was great and sure you sympathized with him and wanted him to overcome his trial, but bottom line, he still tried to kill a kid to cover up an incestuous relationship with his sister. To be honest, I've never seen him show any remorse for it either.

When I saw that scene I was completely expecting it to go where it went. It's completely in character for those two.
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"This is a classic case of people romanticizing a scoundrel and opening themselves to a world of hurt."Thank you, thank you, thank you. People are so easily turned, it's frightening.
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I was disturbed by that scene. Too much. Cold body of Joffrey almost dropped on the floor during rape. I was upset that some commenters of Tim Surette's review thought that it wasn't rape coz Cersei didn't say loud and clear NO. Ridiculous. It was clear rape from beginnign to the end. Cersei now got sympathy from me. She was abused emotionally by her father and physically by her brother in front of her dead son. That's cruel.
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As Martin pointed out, there's a timeline problem. In the book, Jaime is just back and still thinks he can resume his relationship with Cersei. In the show, she's welcomed him rather coldly, so he's already begun distancing himself from her. So that just made no sense, and I had initially thought they'd drop that scene completely to emphasize the growing rift between them.
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It was a stupid move by the writers and producers of the show to do the scene this way. The problem is that Jaime is a fan favourite (especially for book people as giving him narrative in the books make him much more sympathetic and likeable), and no one wants their favourite character to be a rapist. Sure everyone on GoT does horrible things, there's murder, incest, torture, you name it this show has it, but the worst of the worst is rape. Jaime is my favourite character so I'm really annoyed that they have made my favourite character a rapist.
The comments coming from cast and crew now are far worse than the actual scene. The show is fiction and the rape didn't actually happen so maybe Nikolaj Coster-Waldau thinks it's okay to say that it was and wasn't rape. Or for Director Alex Graves to say “It becomes consensual by the end.”. Well it can't be both rape and not rape. If you write, direct, and act out that scene then own up to the acts in it, don't defend rape.
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Rape is really, really bad. But it's definitely not the worst of the worst. It's several orders of magnitude less bad than what Ramsay did to Theon. It's even much less bad than what Theon did at Winterfell (several murders). And how about what was going on at Harrenhal? The Mountain personally selected a person to be tortured to death, every day. To say that what Jaime did in that scene was the worst of the worst is absurd. It's not even the worst thing he has done.
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This isn't about someone reading the books or not. You spend an entire season redeeming a character and then destroy it in one scene. Jamie's transformation was brilliantly handled by Martin. They've done an incredible job in the adaption but they can make mistakes and in this case they did.
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I have never viewed his "redemption" as a transformation. He has always been both good and bad. At first we only saw the bad. Then we found out that he's not all bad, and for a while, we only saw his good side. Now we saw some of the bad again. I have no problem with that.
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There's bad and then there's raping someone, robbing a farmer bad, raping your sister who just lost her child, unforgivable. I just read the director of the episode didn't think what happened in the scene was rape and that he thinks it was consensual which tells me the man is either covering his ass for screwing up the character or an idiot.
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Yah that escalated kinda quickly..

Just because it's unexpected or doesn't conform to your, perhaps limited, view of what having sex is doesn't automatically make it rape..

Ya really should go find a couple of uncensored nipples to riot about or i might feel encouraged to let my dog hump your leg and rename him Jaime..
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I've read what he said now. He never said that it wasn't rape. He also didn't say that the whole thing was consensual. What he said was "it becomes consensual in the end". It's still a dumb thing to say, but it's not as bad as saying that it wasn't rape. Apparently he had already described it as "rape" and as "forced sex" earlier in the day, so I wonder if maybe he was talking about a longer version of the scene that was cut down in editing.
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Yes, it's unforgivable, but much less unforgivable than what he did to Bran, so it doesn't make sense to me to view the "badness" of this act as "screwing up the character". If I wanted to complain about something, it would be that even to an evil person, it should make very little sense to rape someone that you want to be in a relationship with. It bothers me a little bit that he was so irrational. It doesn't bother me at all that he did something this bad.

I agree that it's really dumb to say that it's not rape, and to say that it was consensual. It was definitely rape according to the laws in my country, and it can't be described as consensual.

I would agree with him if he had just said that she didn't feel as strongly against it as most women would in a rape situation, and that this makes it a lesser offense than, say, what the soldiers at the place where Arya got her Needle back were going to do (or had already done) to the owner's daughter. Still, even a rape near the lesser end of the scale is very nasty. It's nowhere near as bad as murdering or crippling a child, but it's certainly not something that a character that can be described as a "good guy" would do.
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I think it's a lot more dangerous to pretend that everything that we have chosen to label by the same word is equally bad. It's an obvious fact that they're not.

I think that "becomes consensual" is at least a terrible choice of words.
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When you start to talk about this kind of rape is not as bad as that kind of rape your going down a very dangerous path. The idea that something starts off as rape but becomes consensual is really pretty disgusting, that was a violent assault anyway you wish to parse it. The reason I said he screwed up the character is because he did at least in the books change as a person by this point and it seemed they were trying to do the same thing in the tv series, risking his own life to save Brieanne being an example. So to have him rape someone essentially made a mockery of that change. I dont think it was by design I think he just fucked it up and then went on an extreme back pedal. I love the show, they have done a great job with a very sprawling story but that scene was mishandled badly.
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It upsets me that other people are upset which in it self is upsetting and that upsets me even more
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It was too soft, They had to do it on top of the death body! :)
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At least you didn't say through the dead body.
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People complaining that a TV adaptation is different from the book either need to stop watching the TV series or stop reading the books.

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