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Snow: I have a theory about his mother

  • Avatar of arwenaessedai

    arwenaessedai

    [1]May 27, 2011
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    So I have a theory about Jon Snow.


    Eddard seems way too honorable to have strayed and produced a son. What if Jon were the son of his sister? His sister and the king.


    When Eddard leaves Jon beofre he goes to the Wall, he says "you have my blood". He doesn't say "you are my son".


    WDYT?


    Anybody else have a feeling it's going that way?



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  • Avatar of Pumpkinhead1870

    Pumpkinhead1870

    [2]May 27, 2011
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    Read the books, you'll get your answer.

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  • Avatar of chunkin12

    chunkin12

    [3]May 28, 2011
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    definitely had the exact same thought as i was reading through the 1st book. but who was the father? rhaegar? robert? and who will tell Jon the truth?

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  • Avatar of Shane747

    Shane747

    [4]May 28, 2011
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    Yeah, Ned is too honorable to have a bastard.



    But who is the father then? I think it could be Robert, seeing as he has the black hair of Baratheons (though Ned also has that hair.) It could be Raegar, but Jon doesn't look like a Targarian at all.

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  • Avatar of VascoCardoso

    VascoCardoso

    [5]May 28, 2011
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    Probably the son of Rhaehar as that would be a good reason to keep it a secret from Robert. About Jon having black hair unlike Rhaegar. Well, he would have gotten it from Lyana. LEts not forget the Baratheons descend from the Targaryens and they are black haired.
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  • Avatar of CharlotteArch

    CharlotteArch

    [6]May 29, 2011
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    Quick *basic* (and oversimplified) genetics lesson... the gene for black hair is dominant, the gene for blond hair is recessive. A child born of two parents with blonde hair does not have a chance of having black hair because if either parent carried the gene for black hair, they would have black hair (since it's dominant, it overrides the gene for blonde hair.)

    A parent with black hair mating with a parent with blonde hair *does* have a (statistical) 1-in-4 chance (that is, *each child* has that 1-in-4 chance) of having blonde hair *if and only if* the parent with black hair is carrying a recessive gene. Since recessive genes can pass down without the gene showing up, it *is* possible for two parents with black hair to have a child with blonde hair. So here's how it works (again, I stress, this is *VASTLY OVERSIMPLIFIED* - but so is the way they're treating it in the story):

    BL=chromosome for black hair (Dominant)
    yl=chromosome for blonde (yellow) hair (recessive)

    At 1st generation if all parents have black hair but have an ancestor who had blonde hair so that the recessive gene passed down, you *could* get this combination:

    Father BL/yl Mother BL/yl
    Child 1 BL/BL (black hair)
    Child 2 BL/yl (black hair w/recessive gene which can be passed on)
    Child 3 yl/BL (black hair w/recessive gene which can be passed on)
    Child 4 yl/yl ** BLONDE HAIR **

    If the just one parent carries a recessive, there's no chance for a blonde child but there *is* a 50/50 chance that a child has either "pure" black hair (BL/BL) or that the child carries the recessive gene which s/he can pass on (BL/yl or yl/BL.)
    Father BL/BL Mother BL/yl
    Child 1 BL/BL (black hair)
    Child 2 BL/yl (black hair w/recessive gene which can be passed on)
    Child 3 BL/BL (black hair)
    Child 4 BL/yl (black hair w/recessive gene which can be passed on)

    So, for example... Realistically speaking, Ned's conclusion, that the three Baratheon children *could not* be Robert's is incorrect. It is quite possible that *all* of the recorded generations above Robert were children who were either BL/yl (black hair w/recessive gene which can be passed on) or yl/BL (black hair w/recessive gene which can be passed on), in which case it would have been possible for Cearse to have all blonde children with a Robert who has black hair.


    Now, as to Rhaegar... the Targaryans are carrying all recessive genes, as are the Lannisters, so they'd all be yl/yl. But Lyanna, like Robert, and we can safely assume Ned as well, could be BL/BL, *or* BL/yl *or* yl/BL.


    SO... in conclusion, the fact that Jon has black hair really doesn't tell us anything about who his mother is, since his father has black hair. Nor does it tell us for certain that Robert is his father, since if Lyanna had black hair and Rheagar has blonde hair, it would be possible for them to have a black hair child, even if Lyanna was a BL/yl or yl/BL. All we know conclusively from Jon's hair color is that he cannot have *two* blonde parents, as that would be genetically impossible. And realistically speaking, the only way that we know *conclusively* that the Baratheon children are not Roberts is because the author tells us so via other story elements.

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    fladimir7

    [7]May 30, 2011
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    It's very possible but i wouldn't wish. He looks best being the bastard of Ned than that fat guy.
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  • Avatar of DanielSchultes

    DanielSchultes

    [8]May 30, 2011
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    GRR Martin has neither confirmed nor denied any theories concerning Jon's mother.



    Inside the books (also in Book 1, Game of Thrones), much more information is provided leading to that conclusion [Mod: that was removed from above]. Not knowing which will be used by HBO, and when will it be used, I encourage those of you more inquisitive to look through the Internet (Just don't want to spoil anything to non-readers)



    Anyway, just enjoy the show!



    (Mod: Somehow I've missed this one, so removed the book spoiler.)

    Edited on 04/07/2012 1:15am
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  • Avatar of stopeer

    stopeer

    [9]Jun 15, 2011
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    Ah, a good old "Jon The King" theory. It just didn't sounds like Martin to me.
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  • Avatar of trk_boti

    trk_boti

    [10]Jun 15, 2011
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    I thought that what Jamie and Cersei did in Winterfell when Bran sawed them , maybe Eddard did the same thing whit her sister !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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  • Avatar of G3ckOz

    G3ckOz

    [11]Jun 15, 2011
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    Unless he's actually Robert's son, it would have no impact on the realm whoever it is. Depends on how things change in the second season i guess. Looking forward to seeing Jon's character develop, As i see it, Jon and Daenerys are in the center of things, so perhaps indeed connected in a way, i dunno...just speculations.


    p.s. i've never even heard of the books before this series, so try to not to throw spoilers.

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  • Avatar of G3ckOz

    G3ckOz

    [12]Jun 15, 2011
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    trk_boti wrote:


    I thought that what Jamie and Cersei did in Winterfell when Bran sawed them , maybe Eddard did the same thing whit her sister !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    LOL, i highly doubt that, if he was indeed as honorable and just as he seemed, NO WAY IN HELL!

    Edited on 06/15/2011 12:01pm
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  • Avatar of c00lizz

    c00lizz

    [13]Jun 17, 2011
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    Well Ned's "You might not have my name but you have my blood" comment when they part on the kingsroad seem to negate any theory's that has someone else as the father.

    I have my own little highly unlikely theory but I've been reading the book along with the series so it's mostly based on that.
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  • Avatar of RitariKnight

    RitariKnight

    [14]Jun 17, 2011
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    c00lizz wrote:
    Well Ned's "You might not have my name but you have my blood" comment when they part on the kingsroad seem to negate any theory's that has someone else as the father.


    How so? It only tells us that at least one of Jon Snow's parents must be a Stark (=Ned's blood). Either Ned or Benjen is his father, or Lyanna is his mother. Why did Benjen join the Night's Watch? What really happened to Lyanna? Did Ned truly abandon his honor and commit adultery to conceive Jon? These are questions that haven't been answered in the show yet, so we can't know for sure.


    I've read the books, but I'm looking at this here in light of what the TV show has told us, and what can be deducted from that and common sense.


    If Ned is the father, then the mother is probably this Wylla woman Ned told Robert about. If it's not then she at least has to be somehow involved (wet nurse?), or maybe to cover for some other mother, who's identity could not for what ever reason be revealed to anyone. Maybe it was some married highborn lady who's husband might not like the idea of his wife giving birth to some other man's son?. The husband was probably away for the war (Robert's Rebellion) so he might not know about his wife being pregnant.


    If Benjen is the father, then maybe he joined the NW because the mother was somebody he shouldn't have been having those kind of relations with and Ned decided to cover for his brother and took Jon as his own bastard to maybe protect both Benjen and Jon from possible retribution from the mother's husband? The mother would probably be some highborn lady, and not Wylla, who simply could have been a wet nurse who was paid to be in on the ruse.


    If Lyanna is the mother, then who's the father? Once again like with Benjen, Ned claiming Jon as his own bastard would probably be to protect Jon from some threat, but what could that be? I could see Ned tarnish his own honor for his family's sake (Lyanna or Benjen) so claiming Jon as his bastard would actually be honorable. Knowing that Robert hated Rhaegar Targaryen for something he did to Lyanna so much that Robert wanted every Targaryen die could imply that Jon's father could be a Targaryen maybe even Rhaegar himself. Ned would then definitely conceal Jon's true parentage from Robert, and to do so he would have to conceal it from everyone including his own wife.


    I'd guess that Jon is not Ned's bastard. Both the Benjen and the Lyanna options seem more likely. Of those two Lyanna is more plausibe, since Ned has kept the secret for this long. With Benjen at the Wall, letting it out that Jon is in fact his would no longer be such a big deal, unless the mother is a Targaryen, then Robert's hatred would still be in force.


    I hope we get some more info on this despite Ned taking his knowledge to the grave. Maybe there's somebody else who knows the truth.

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  • Avatar of G3ckOz

    G3ckOz

    [15]Jun 17, 2011
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    RitariKnight wrote:
    I've read the books, but I'm looking at this here in light of what the TV show has told us, and what can be deducted from that and common sense.


    So you're loooong theory is based on you reading the books and on the notion that HBO will stick to them bit by bit. Since you've read the books it's gotta be difficult to be impartial, no matter what you tell yourself consciencely, your subconscience already knows the truth. Anyway...one question if possible just by Yes or No.


    In the books...do you eventually find out about Jon's true birth parents?

    Edited on 06/17/2011 2:58pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of RitariKnight

    RitariKnight

    [16]Jun 17, 2011
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    G3ckOz wrote:


    RitariKnight wrote:
    I've read the books, but I'm looking at this here in light of what the TV show has told us, and what can be deducted from that and common sense.


    So you're loooong theory is based on you reading the books and on the notion that HBO will stick to them bit by bit. Since you've read the books it's gotta be difficult to be impartial, no matter what you tell yourself consciencely, your subconscience already knows the truth. Anyway...one question if possible just by Yes or No.


    In the books...do you eventually find out about Jon's true birth parents?



    You're right, it's difficult to answer without using the extra clues in the books, but I think I managed to do so. The first book actually gives more clues to the mystery than what the first season has done.


    The answer to your last question is a spoiler in itself.




    ****SPOILER***** (DOESN'T SPOIL ANY PLOT POINTS)


    No definite answer after four books, but they do give enough hints that one theory becomes very, very likely. GRRM has promised to reveal the secret at some point in a future book. It might even be book 5, we'll find out soon enough. He's also said that B&W guessed correctly when he asked them about it during their discussions while still negotiating for the right to adapt the books. That means that the knowledge is there already in the first four books for the observant reader to find out. I'm 99,99 % certain I know the truth about his parentage.


    ***END SPOILER***



    edit: added extra disclaimer to the "spoiler". It doesn't really spoil the story itself any.



    [Mod edit: changed the font size for the spoiler part.]

    Edited on 04/07/2012 1:21am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of G3ckOz

    G3ckOz

    [17]Jun 18, 2011
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    RitariKnight wrote:


    G3ckOz wrote:


    RitariKnight wrote:
    I've read the books, but I'm looking at this here in light of what the TV show has told us, and what can be deducted from that and common sense.


    So you're loooong theory is based on you reading the books and on the notion that HBO will stick to them bit by bit. Since you've read the books it's gotta be difficult to be impartial, no matter what you tell yourself consciencely, your subconscience already knows the truth. Anyway...one question if possible just by Yes or No.


    In the books...do you eventually find out about Jon's true birth parents?



    You're right, it's difficult to answer without using the extra clues in the books, but I think I managed to do so. The first book actually gives more clues to the mystery than what the first season has done.


    The answer to your last question is a spoiler in itself.



    ****SPOILER*****


    No definite answer after four books, but they do give enough hints that one theory becomes very, very likely. GRRM has promised to reveal the secret at some point in a future book. It might even be book 5, we'll find out soon enough. He's also said that B&W guessed correctly when he asked them about it during their discussions while still negotiating for the right to adapt the books. That means that the knowledge is there already in the first four books for the observant reader to find out. I'm 99,99 % certain I know the truth about his parentage.


    ***END SPOILER***




    that's a great percentage,lol ), Thanks!



    [Mod: Changed the font size for part of the quote.]

    Edited on 04/07/2012 1:23am
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  • Avatar of LoserMike

    LoserMike

    [18]Jun 20, 2011
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    [Mod: Post removed since it contains book spoilers. There's a thread for spoilery discussion stickied. Use that. Here you can only discuss Jon's parentage according to the TV shows revelations.]

    Edited on 06/20/2011 6:42am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of LoNg1NuS

    LoNg1NuS

    [19]Jun 20, 2011
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    [Mod: Post removed because of book spoilers. Read the above message where to discuss spoilers.]

    Edited on 06/20/2011 6:43am
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  • Avatar of stopeer

    stopeer

    [20]Jun 23, 2011
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    [Mod: removed book spoiler. There's a perfectly good spoiler thread for any book related spoiler discussion including Jon Snow's parentage. Go there.]

    Edited on 06/23/2011 2:45pm
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