Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex Forums

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First Season ep22 (Spoilers)

  • Avatar of Zzombielemur

    Zzombielemur

    [1]Mar 29, 2008
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    When "The Laughing Man" says to the Major that this is the 3rd time they have met what were the other meetings?

    Also, completely off topic why did they take away the weight factor of the cyborgs? In the first movie they implied that the Major was extremely heavy through some conversations and scenes where her landing crushed the "ground". Is the show so much set in a different tangent that they removed this detail or did they just forget? All the time in the show I see her standing on something that shouldn't support her weight or jumping off of something that should instantly crush from the pressure.

    Also why isn't Bauto's body superior? If they are both fully prosthetic then his mere mass should allow for higher level electronics and much more physically capabilities. I realize that "he" might not be as smart but his body should still be better if they both have the same military backing.

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  • Avatar of Chiroptera_Rex

    Chiroptera_Rex

    [2]Mar 29, 2008
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    Well, "met" is probably not the right word. It's more like it should be "come into contact" or "come into close proximity with each other". The first time they "met each other" was in "The Copycat will Dance; MEME" when the Major goes into the security guard's brain in order to find the virus. The person who was trying to copy the virus was the Laughing Man. Baby Ruth, the man who Motoko's online personality Chroma received the attack barrier fragment from in "The Man that Lurks in the Darkness of the Net; CHAT! CHAT! CHAT!", was there and saw Motoko attacked by the Laughing Man's virus and in the aftermath collected what was left of the barrier.

    The second time they met was at the end of "CHAT! CHAT! CHAT!" when Chroma sees Omba being "pulled" by someone from the "library". The person who was taking him offline before anything else developed, and who Chroma sees when she rounds the corner, is the Laughing Man. The Laughing Man was at the vocational aid centre at the time using their powerful set-up to breach high security networks.

    As for the weight issue, it could be that the GitS:SAC Production Committee did not have the money to show it or that they didn't deem it prudent to the series. That jump by Motoko onto the top of the building in the 1995 GitS movie is shown again in "Idolatry; IDOLATOR" and the roof does not budge when she lands on it. There are also many times where the ports for the cyberbrain on the back of the person's neck are not animated. This could also be done for time constraints, budget issues, or it was deemed not necessary to show at certain points.

    Batou's body is obviously bigger, but that doesn't necessarily translate to better. For one, Motoko is the dubbed the Major because of her lengthy time in serving in the military, a military career that may be as long as Ishikawa's and is certainly longer than Batou's ("Beware the Left Eye; POKER FACE"). Since she is the de facto leader of the group, she probably has the more advanced prosthetic body. Also, prosthetic body types are most likely chosen to closely resemble the bodies the users would have had if they had not needed a new body. For Motoko, hers is just a guesstimate since she was prostheticised at such an early age (also, her body is actually pretty normal as Kurutan will mention in "Corporate Graft; SCANDAL" so she can better hide the fact that what is inside her shell is actually incredibly powerful).

    You want to see the brute force of Batou's bigger body against an opponent who is smaller? Watch the 2nd GIG episode "Escape in Defeat; EMBARRASSMENT".
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  • Avatar of Zzombielemur

    Zzombielemur

    [3]Mar 29, 2008
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    I've seen all of first season most of second and the first movie. So many things in what I've seen leave me with questions (not all of which I can think of now).

    To start with just to clarify It was that ?Yokoshima? guy and his people that created the laughing man name and then as "him" proceeded to blackmail companies for bundles of cash?

    Who wrote the first "mail"/memo that whatshisname found and incited him to take on Serrano and consequently start off the entire laughing man affair? I assume that it's just not important.

    When the Major gets her head blown off I knew she would survive but I'm still not clear on how she did it.

    Do fully prosthetic bodies have skin thats grown for them like terminators or is it a synthetic? Most of the time it looks synthetic when you see parts get blown off I assume thats just the way its drawn.

    Also how can a mere pistol penetrate a cyperbrain and go all the way through and yet a giant "arm" suit standing on your head and smashing the ground beneath not squish the Majors brain like an egg? Is her cyberbrain just that much tougher? I find it hard to believe that the weight wouldn't have crushed her.

    I'm still not convinced that Batou's body wouldn't be better. When you are talking about mechanical parts his body can straight up fit more than the Major's. It doesn't make sense that they have the same output especially if they have the same backing.

    Also you see all these arms and legs with guns and blades hidden inside. I assume that would compromise your limbs structure a little, but why doesn't anyone on the team have one of those mods. It would surely come in handy in some circumstances.

    Where did Batou learn to hack eyes and why doesn't he do it more often?

    What is the back story to allot of this world? Sometimes it seems that they want you to figure it out from vague references. Perhaps they expect you to read all the magna, but thats something infinitely unlikely for me to do. They hint at a war and give a little story in the random episode. They hint at pollution and the "Japanese Miracle" which I assume was something that cleans the air or radiation. The northern territories that kidnaps people maybe that episode would make more sense if they explained the back story.

    My final question/complaint what is with the blatant exhibitionism. Sex sells thats a fact so I figure in the original magna sex was a big part of it that way they could appeal to the creepy " Ohh that Major is so hotzz" crowd. I can understand that and I can understand the show emulating this to an extent, but sometimes I find the random booty/boobie shots extremely annoying I wish the show could have perhaps been a bit more mature. Implying that the main characters have active sex lives is fine because thats part of life, but the booty shots not so much.

    Thats all I can think of for now most of them are from the last 6 or so episodes of first season since thats what I have seen most recently. I appreciate any answers and some discussion.

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  • Avatar of Chiroptera_Rex

    Chiroptera_Rex

    [4]Mar 29, 2008
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    Wow. Lots of questions. Hopefully all of my answers will satisfy you. If not, there are probably others who can chime in.

    Zzombielemur wrote:
    To start with just to clarify It was that ?Yokoshima? guy and his people that created the laughing man name and then as "him" proceeded to blackmail companies for bundles of cash?


    It's Yakushima and once he and his people dug for themselves into Serano Genomics' micromachine treatment and realised that there were so many instances where the treatment failed, they decided to use this information to blackmail Serano. However, it seems that more than just one company was in on the secret that micromachines could not cure cyberbrain sclerosis. So Yakushima's "administration" (he was the man actually in charge of the country while the Prime Minister was a "paper tiger", as Batou called Kayabuki in 2nd GIG) took on the persona of the Laughing Man in order to blackmail more companies.

    Zzombielemur wrote:
    Who wrote the first "mail"/memo that whatshisname found and incited him to take on Serrano and consequently start off the entire laughing man affair? I assume that it's just not important.


    It's never revealed, but it could actually have been Chitose Murai, creator of the Murai vaccine. He may have written the letter, but died before he could send it out. Aoi merely stumbled upon it and, with the truth in hand, decided to have a little chat with Ernst Serano.

    Zzombielemur wrote:
    When the Major gets her head blown off I knew she would survive but I'm still not clear on how she did it.


    Remember the new body that Motoko was going to switch into in "Corporate Graft; SCANDAL"? That was the body whose head was destroyed in "Smoke of Gunpowder, Hail of Bullets; BARRAGE". The Major was controlling it remotely, just as she was with the smaller version of her in that episode. When talking to Aoi in "Public Security Section 9, Once Again; STAND ALONE COMPLEX", Motoko rolls up her sleeve to show that her forearm has a line running through it. That's the arm that was shot up by the Armed Suit in "Left-Behind Trace; ERASER". She stayed in her original body because, as she says to Batou in "BARRAGE", "no other will do". In case you're wondering, the reason why Batou says to Togusa that he doesn't care what happens to Motoko in "STAND ALONE COMPLEX" and everyone starts to make fun of him is because the Major did not tell Batou that she was controlling the body remotely. Batou actually thought that she had been killed. It added enough realism to the incident that Yakushima really thought that he had taken care of the final piece of Section 9.

    Zzombielemur wrote:
    Do fully prosthetic bodies have skin thats grown for them like terminators or is it a synthetic? Most of the time it looks synthetic when you see parts get blown off I assume thats just the way its drawn.


    As I've mentioned in another post in a different thread, the skin is grown using the DNA of the person being prostheticised. That gives the person a bit of connection to their old body.

    Zzombielemur wrote:
    Also how can a mere pistol penetrate a cyperbrain and go all the way through and yet a giant "arm" suit standing on your head and smashing the ground beneath not squish the Majors brain like an egg? Is her cyberbrain just that much tougher? I find it hard to believe that the weight wouldn't have crushed her.


    It may be that Gayle Yasuoka, the man in the Armed Suit, was taking his time and toying with Motoko, crushing her slowly and enjoying the moment like the sick s.o.b. that he is. However, you called the weapon that destroyed Motoko's head in "BARRAGE" "a mere pistol". That was a sniper rifle, similar to the one used by Saitou on the multiped tank in "Proof of Recklessness; TESTATION" and also similar to the rifle that destroyed the head that the Puppet Master was in at the end of the 1995 movie. Sniper rifles are incredibly strong pieces of weaponry that can most assuredly punch through steel if the need should arise. That one rifle is even more powerful than the rifle that Saitou used on the Armed Suit in "ERASER". Finally, if that doesn't convice you that the Armed Suit should have had more power than the sniper rifle to destroy Motoko's head, then consider the fact that the Armed Suit fight was an homage to the final battle in the 1995 movie.

    Zzombielemur wrote:
    I'm still not convinced that Batou's body wouldn't be better. When you are talking about mechanical parts his body can straight up fit more than the Major's. It doesn't make sense that they have the same output especially if they have the same backing.


    I'd still have to say that the Major would be deemed to have more value to Section 9 so her body would be stronger. However, let me ask you: When did they mention that Batou's body was inferior to Motoko's? The only "fight" they had was in "The Fortunate Ones; MISSING HEARTS" when Batou challenged her and Motoko merely beat him by hacking his body. The Major's sole competition in the hacking department would be Aoi in GitS:SAC or the Puppet Master in the 1995 movie.

    Zzombielemur wrote:
    Also you see all these arms and legs with guns and blades hidden inside. I assume that would compromise your limbs structure a little, but why doesn't anyone on the team have one of those mods. It would surely come in handy in some circumstances.


    I think you just answered your own question. The members of Section 9 who are fully prostheticised sacrifice the hidden weapon for more limb strength.

    Zzombielemur wrote:
    Where did Batou learn to hack eyes and why doesn't he do it more often?


    Batou doesn't know how to hack eyes. His eyes were hacked by Aoi at the end of "ERASER" so it appeared that Aoi had vanished. Even if Aoi had stealth camouflage, Batou could see Aoi because his eyes can see in infrared. He couldn't find Aoi because Aoi "erased" himself from Batou's field of vision through a hack.

    Zzombielemur wrote:
    What is the back story to allot of this world? Sometimes it seems that they want you to figure it out from vague references. Perhaps they expect you to read all the magna, but thats something infinitely unlikely for me to do. They hint at a war and give a little story in the random episode. They hint at pollution and the "Japanese Miracle" which I assume was something that cleans the air or radiation. The northern territories that kidnaps people maybe that episode would make more sense if they explained the back story.


    The manga plays a huge role in the series since the show draws so many references from the the work by Shirō Masamune. You can see the references to it in the guide here. Just scroll through the various episode pages here to see the allusions to the various chapters in the manga.

    A lot of the story is actually fleshed out in the series, though, and the wars are mentioned a bit in 2nd GIG. For instance, World War III took place around the turn of the century and probably ended, as did World War II, with the nuclear bombing of Japan. This time, however, Tōkyō was bombed and you can see the devastation in "Latent Heat Source; EXCAVATION" and "Rhapsody - The Melody of a Bygone Nation; PU239/94".

    Zzombielemur wrote:
    My final question/complaint what is with the blatant exhibitionism. Sex sells thats a fact so I figure in the original magna sex was a big part of it that way they could appeal to the creepy " Ohh that Major is so hotzz" crowd. I can understand that and I can understand the show emulating this to an extent, but sometimes I find the random booty/boobie shots extremely annoying I wish the show could have perhaps been a bit more mature. Implying that the main characters have active sex lives is fine because thats part of life, but the booty shots not so much.


    Fan comments are a huge part of anime production nowadays and it was probably comments similar to yours that had Motoko change her outfit in 2nd GIG. She did not once wear her "hooker clothes" in the second season. However, try to understand that this kind of stuff is present in almost any anime that you come across. Anime studio Bones is actually probably the best at keeping the T&A to a minimum if not showing any at all (they've animated such high-drama series as Wolf's Rain, RahXephon, and Fullmetal Alchemist). Geneon (not the North American arm that recently went bankrupt, but the main Japanese company) is the worst offender of gratuitous T&A. Check out Burst Angel or Witch Blade to see what I mean. Production I.G is somewhere in between these two companies. Japan's fascination with breasts is very similar to America's fascination with incredibly skinny female leads. Seriously, most star actresses in any Hollywood-produced medium are considered beautiful because they are skinny as a rail? The ones who have a bit of sammich in them are few and far between.

    Be sure to ask if you have any more questions. Hopefully others will participate and add to what I've said here.
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  • Avatar of Zzombielemur

    Zzombielemur

    [5]Mar 29, 2008
    • member since: 07/16/06
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    Thanks so much for answering my questions a few of them leave me with more questions or fixes. I'll go in order to make this easy.

    1. That answered it. I had it figured out I think just wasn't 100%.

    2. That makes sense he would write something like that and he dided soon enough that leaving it unsent makes allot of sense.

    3. I was confused because I never caught that shes stayed in the old body. I figured she switched and was just using another one she had around. I guessed that she never told him that much was clear. What did she say right before it happened? I never caught that. and I forgot to ask earlier.

    4. K, on a side note robots have the Alien white blood whats up with that? Shouldn't everyone have that? Even if the robot has no "ghost" its body should be just the same as a prosthetic persons, or at least it could be if one was willing to pay. What I'm getting at is since full prosthetic people don't have blood why no white ooze?

    5. Wow, no I'm not so far gone I can't tell that difference between a pistol and a large caliber rifle I was basing this on the assumption (I admit it) that cyberbrain cases have around the same structural capabilities. I think its earlier in that very episode that Batuo shoots a Arm suit pilot directly in the head. now the gun looks like a 9mm. In the future bullets probably rock socks, but still I don't see it having the same amount of force. Oh and i did catch the connection to the old movie scene it's hard not to.

    6. Okay, with all you know about the series I think you are probably right it just doesn't make sense to me.

    7. That simple huh well okay then.

    8. I mean when he tricked the Arm Suit pilot into thinking he was dead so he would get out. Then he says something along the lines of "sorry buddy i had to hack your eyes" then he puts a couple right into his noggin and out the back. The scene where Aoi did it to him I wasn't confused by (for once)

    9. Okay, real talk I'll probably just ask you.

    10. Anime is a weird thing for me on one hand I love it but on the other I find that 99% of it I can't stand to watch. I can't handle evangelion although many love it. I think many parts of FMA are great but the cliche anime gags that it's full of make me want to puch out my TV. Don't even get me started on the Tatchkomas in GitS they are on my hit list too(even if 1/90000 things they say is funny). Regardless of all this FLCL is one of my favorites. I can't explain it what makes me hate so much anime is what makes me love FLCL it truly is bizarre. At the moment my favorite animated shows are Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, GitS, and FLCL. My choices really are pretty limited.

    For the record I can't stand much of Hollywood. The actors I like rarely appear and more often than not are already long dead. This is one of the reasons I watch a fair amount of forgien films. Nightwatch is great because everyone in it really looks like someone I could see on the streets of Moscow and not someone from a photoshoped glamor shot.

    I will have more questions I'm sure, but I'll need time to think of them because over the years I've watched this show I never before got any of them answered. For now thanks.

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    Chiroptera_Rex

    [6]Mar 29, 2008
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    Ah, I forgot about him hacking the eyes of the JMSDF soldier in the Armed Suit. It could be that Aoi's hack on him made him ask the Major about hacking like that. Togusa had been hacked in "In the Forest of the Sub-Imagoes; PORTRAITZ" and Batou really put him down for being so vulnerable. He even called Togusa a loser to Motoko in the episode. It could be that he was on his high horse when he himself did not know how to hack a person's eyes let alone defend against one. That's probably not the case, though. What's more likely is that since Aoi is so much more advance with hacking than Batou is, Batou could not circumvent the hack in order to find Aoi before he vanished down that street.

    As for what Motoko says to Batou right before her head is splattered, that's not something to ever concern yourself with. It's the same type of moment that occurred in The End of Evangelion when Gendō Ikari said something that wasn't heard to Ritsuko Akagi. People over at the Neon Genesis: Evangelion board wanted to know what he said too, but there is really no answer. It was just supposed to be a life flashing before them moment. Batou could see that red dot on Motoko and knew this was the end. Those words that Motoko spoke were for him and him alone. Similar to what Gendō said to Ritsuko. The words spoken by both were not for the audience and merely for the character about to lose their friend or lose their life respectively.

    The white "blood" is used for androids only. It's apparant that blood is needed to keep cyborgs alive since they bleed red as well. It could have a connection to the fact that, at the very least, the skin and saliva of cyborgs are actually created from their DNA. Androids are kept alive by something completely different. The white blood keeps their bodies going just as the red blood does for the humans/cyborgs.

    I wouldn't say that I'm an expert on the series, but anime can be hard to understand at times and, like you, I want to make sure I understand everything. It took me a few viewings to realise quite a few of the answers you posed in this thread. Not all of my answers are totally factual. I base a lot of what I've said here on what I've gathered from the series and the manga. Of course, Shirō Masamune did not really explain everything in the GitS Universe. It's up to the fan to piece together what the manga-ka has laid out. Being the editor of the guide here at TV.com, I have to at least try to know what I'm talking about.

    Yep, Bebop and FLCL are awesome series (I own Champloo, but, aside from the English voice artists, I really hate it). That reminds me, I have to purchase FLCL on DVD soon.
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  • Avatar of Zzombielemur

    Zzombielemur

    [7]Mar 30, 2008
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    I know the kind of scene you are referring to where the audience is not supposed to know what's said. This one just seems more direct. The shot was zoomed in on her mouth and then slowed down. It just seemed to me that in this instance they wanted you to lip read it.

    I really liked Samurai Champloo because with the exception of maybe 3 or 4 scenes it maintains a level of seriousness in the artwork. Very few funny faces and no magical swords makes a great show for me.

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    JoachimPeiper

    [8]Jun 24, 2008
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    Hello, reading your exchange has enlightened me and improved my comprehension of GitS. It also answered a few of my questionns. But, if you would permit me to ask, I'd like to dwell on the WEIGHT issue again.

    The Tachikomas whenever they are perched on roofs and hop from one point to another why does it not affect the roof's surface? From my experience as an architect even a person standing on a newly installed roof would creat an impression on the G.I. sheet material. Considering that the Tachikomas are shown landing in G.I. roofs of factories, homes etc I doubt that with their wieight they'd crash down upon landing! Well, that's just my nitpick but overall the attention to detail is simply amazing.

    Regarding the Major's landing, I'm not sure from what forum I saw it, thier cybernetic bodies take the force of the landing and not on the surface they were landing. Hmmm, quite acceptable.

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    Chiroptera_Rex

    [9]Jun 25, 2008
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    The weight issue really boils down to cost. A TV series has a lot less money to spend over the course of 26 eps than a movie at less than 2 hours. The 1995 movie showed the ground breaking underneath Motoko's body. For the TV series, Production I.G either decided it wasn't worth the cost or it wasn't necessary. I suppose the idea of the body absorbing the impact instead of the ground could be used as an excuse, but it would still be considered a cheat in order to save money.

    With a Tachikoma and cyborg body weighing so much, something has to give. If the bodies are absorbing the drop so that the entire city doesn't look like the moon in a few years with all the craters throughout the city, then a lot of maintenance will have to be put in to keep the bodies from breaking down after absorbing all the force from those landings.
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    Zzombielemur

    [10]Dec 7, 2008
    • member since: 07/16/06
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    I was re-reading this one before I get around to watching all of 2nd Gig and I noticed your Last Exile sig. I hadn't seen that before... anyways i liked that show good steam punk is so hard to come by.

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