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Mash off official discussion thread

  • Avatar of RandomAussie2

    RandomAussie2

    [21]Nov 16, 2011
    • member since: 11/08/09
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    It should never have been said - but I can't honestly condone either Finn or Satanna. The pain that Satanna knows as a gay young woman has driven her to hurt others and her behaviour this season has been particularly vicious. And let's be honest: McKinley High isn't a nice place to be. She just wants to get through High School and not be rejected. But, the things she said to Finn weren't things he could brush off, and he was still reeling from her treatment of Todd. Finn's been pretty insecure this season about his future - and remember, Finn really desperatly wants to leave Ohio and not end up in a dead end job like his Mom. His dreams were smashed last episode, he's not bright enough to go to college on his own, he doesn't want to his parents know and only that's left for him is NADA - and when Satanna, it was the last straw.



    Things just escatled to a point which drove Finn to say what he did - and while it is terrible, I can't really condemen him. If anyone is to blame, blame society for scrutinising and marginalising gay men and women. In normal circumstances, their behaviour would be unacceptable, but it was hardly normal circumstances for either of them.



    There's little doubt in my mind that the two clubs will unite in time for Nationals at the end of the season, but until then, it's going to be intresting to see how the gang deals with the fallout.



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  • Avatar of Lionheart08

    Lionheart08

    [22]Nov 16, 2011
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    archDuke01 wrote:


    As much as I prefer Santana to Finn I'm gonna have to disagree with those who claim she had the right to slap him / pin everything on him. Making a comparison between her and Kurt is, in my eyes, absolutely ridiculous because Kurt always was a decent person and Karofsky's treatment of him was by all accounts unjustified.


    Santana's been exceptionally abusive to Finn this season, who's never actually went out of his way to antagonize her. Even her Trouble Tones buddies noted her extra attention to Finn. Was his retaliation more severe than what she put him through? Definitely. I'm not arguing that. But retaliation is justified in being more severe than the original crime, because, at the risk of sounding juvenile, she is the one who started it. She pushed him pretty hard, and that "apology" was much more obnoxious than how her usual insults are.


    And the reveal isn't completely out of left field either. Rumors have been circulating for a while, and the only thing that truly confirmed Santana's sexuality to everyone in that room is her exaggerated and obvious reaction to Finn. I only forgive her for the slap because it did a lot more damage to her in its confirmation than it did to Finn.As sorry as I felt for her in that final scene, she was bringing this all upon herself, and it had finally caught up with her.



    I made the Kurt Comparison, not because I think Santana was as sympathetic as Kurt was (and anyone who's seen my posts about last season know I felt Glee was really heavy handed with the storylines last season as well), but because it was a similar situation. Finn knows first hand how homophobic the setting is. Even he was specifically bullied with a lot of anti-gay slurs for being part of Glee Club. I'm sorry, but even though Santana was out of line, would Finn did was beyond idiotic.


    That said, I don't care for Santana. It's similar to how Kurt was being stalkerish towards Finn up until Finn finally blew up on him. I don't feel as empathetic towards Santana because she's just an unsympathetic character.

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  • Avatar of Dulcinea1978

    Dulcinea1978

    [23]Nov 17, 2011
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    I felt bad for Santana, for a few minutes, she's always been bitchy but lately it was just over the top, I could just not stand her. I am not saying that she's not having a hard time being bi but wake up, everybody has issues or problems, that does not mean you have the right to just bully everyone else to deal with your own insecurities, I'm sorry.
    Yes Fin went too far in what he said but honestly I can understand how it was said in that moment. She kept bullying him (and Rory), she has been asked to stop several times by several people and she just kept going. Hitting her where it hurts was probably the only way to make someone like that stop. And a lot of people seem to forget Finn had nothing to do with it being broadcasted, he just yelled it out in the hall and apparently the whole school knew already, HE did not tell her family. I'm really curious to see what will happen after that slap, imo the writers are taking it a bit far. I can not watch someone be a bitch and bully everyone around ALL the time and then feel sorry for her in the next scene, sorry that doesn't work for me and I know the writers want us to feel that way about her.
    Glee is walking a fine line here as far as likeability goes, the whole Quin-adoption storyline is also messed up and even what they did with Mercedes in the first eps this season was so out of character. I hope they don't completely lose their way!
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  • Avatar of waterloo1066

    waterloo1066

    [24]Nov 17, 2011
    • member since: 04/15/11
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    RandomAussie2 wrote:


    It should never have been said - but I can't honestly condone either Finn or Satanna. The pain that Satanna knows as a gay young woman has driven her to hurt others and her behaviour this season has been particularly vicious. And let's be honest: McKinley High isn't a nice place to be. She just wants to get through High School and not be rejected. But, the things she said to Finn weren't things he could brush off, and he was still reeling from her treatment of Todd. Finn's been pretty insecure this season about his future - and remember, Finn really desperatly wants to leave Ohio and not end up in a dead end job like his Mom. His dreams were smashed last episode, he's not bright enough to go to college on his own, he doesn't want to his parents know and only that's left for him is NADA - and when Satanna, it was the last straw.



    Things just escatled to a point which drove Finn to say what he did - and while it is terrible, I can't really condemen him. If anyone is to blame, blame society for scrutinising and marginalising gay men and women. In normal circumstances, their behaviour would be unacceptable, but it was hardly normal circumstances for either of them.



    There's little doubt in my mind that the two clubs will unite in time for Nationals at the end of the season, but until then, it's going to be intresting to see how the gang deals with the fallout.


    The reunion may be a little sooner than you think! I have watched a brief promo for I Kissed a Girl and it looks as thought the two choirs are back together based on what can be seen in various shots. It also looks a though coach Bieste is in for a disappointment when she sees someone else with her new date. Shelby also has a tearful scene with Puck so that storyline seems to be developing. Then again all this could be untrue, let's wait and see!

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  • Avatar of RomanZolanski

    RomanZolanski

    [25]Nov 17, 2011
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    Oh and adding to my post, I also feel sympathetic for Finn, it's just he could've slammed her back, but not outing her. They're both to blame, yes, because both their actions were unacceptable, but right now, Santana is in a position that could mean life or death to be really honest.
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  • Avatar of hal90042000

    hal90042000

    [26]Nov 17, 2011
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    Call me coldhearted but I don't really feel that sorry for Santana all she does is rip people apart and she thought she was unstoppable well she just a Reality Check big time.
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  • Avatar of fachizzzzle

    fachizzzzle

    [27]Nov 17, 2011
    • member since: 09/28/09
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    The Problem With the Finn v. Santana Debate

    For some reason people seem to feel the need to choose sides. Right now, the two sides are: "It's Finn's fault no matter how bad Santana treated him!", and "What happened to Santana was bad, but she had it coming!" By choosing to side with either Santana or Finn, people are missing the point that THEY ARE BOTH WRONG, AND ACTED HORRIBLY THIS EPISODE. The fact that people are choosing sides seems to be causing them to excuse the actions of the person who they are siding with. We should judge Finn and Santana's actions separately. Doing so reveals how both of them are wrong.

    The Problem With #TeamSantana
    First off, I love Santana. She's beautiful, she's funny, and she's SO TALENTED. That said, she's a total bully. Somoene on a different site made a good point that by valorizing Santana for her amusingly evil comments and actions, we're saying that it's okay to bully as long as you're pretty and do it in a clever way. If Finn had been making fun of Santana for her weight, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. On this episode, Santana experienced one of the worst things that can happen to someone. Her being outed, however, is a SEPARATE issue from her bullying.

    The Problem with #TeamFinn:
    One of the most disgusting parts of the Finn defense is this notion that Santana "had it coming." This is why we need to separate the issue of bullying from the issue of outing. It's totally okay to explain Finn's actions by saying that he had had enough, and he said something that he shouldn't have, but let's not JUSTIFY what he did by saying that Santana had it coming. It's only okay to come to Finn's defense, by saying that Santana had pushed him over the edge, as long as we acknowledge that he was wrong. We can explain what he did, but using Santana's actions to justify what he did is terrible.

    Ex Post Facto:
    Santana's inner turmoil does not justify her actions, and Finn's being bullied does not justify his actions. By constantly evaluating the choices of these characters in relation to one another, we minimize the issues of bullying and outing. Both parties were wrong, despite the fact that certain circumstances mitigate (NOT justify) their actions.

    Great episode, great debate.
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  • Avatar of RenatoB

    RenatoB

    [28]Nov 17, 2011
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    RomanZolanski wrote:
    To every person that doesn't feel sympathy for Santana, fuck you. Unless you're LGBT, your opinions are invalid. NO ONE HAS THE FUCKING RIGHT TO OUT ANOTHER PERSON IF THEY AREN'T READY! Omg, I feel for Sanfana because in bi, and if I had no control over someone outing me (I'm still in the closet), them my entire life would be destroyed. Her entire world is crashing down tight now, she might not get accepted by her parents, and so many people are turning against her. Finn of all people should not of done what he did in the hallway (because he has a gay brother).

    Although, Santana's behaviour has been horrible beyond belief, and she had no right bullying those around her, messin with someone's sexuality is unhumanly. Like what the fuck? What is wrong with everyone that's agains Santana? Does she deserve a punishment? Yes. But what she got could ruin get life. There are kids who kill themselves because of those sort of thing. There are kids that get kicked out of their homes, unable to get certain jobs, get physically abused, and will always find people who hate them for something they cannot control.

    I just hope that everyone that is anti-Santana and is STUPID enough to think she deserved any of it will come to their senses.

    & ps, I know this is a show, and I know Santana isn't real, but it's a real situation portrayed through fiction, and people are too ignorant and simple-minded to think beyond their comfort zone. You don't mess with someone's sexuality, like how Kurt didn't out Karofsky after constant violence.


    What Finn did was horrible and over-the-top, but what Santana did was horrible and over-the-top too. Maybe he did something worst. Boo-hoo, she should have thought of that beforehand, she has absolutely no right to make everyone feel like crap just so that she can feel better about herself. You say that people kill themselves over this kind of stuff. Well, people kill themselves over being bullied, whether they're gay, bi, or straight, a lot of times for stuff that has nothing to do with their sexual orientation. Santana is a grown-up, she should know that, and she should know that our actions have consequences. Her life could wind up ruined, but she worked towards that by herself. She's a bitch, and bitches get their comeuppance. I understand that she is now going through something horrible and painful, but it's hard to feel sympathy for someone who's been vicious as a snake from the very first episode, and whose evilness just kept on growing, erupting in this last episode. Don't do to others what you wouldn't like done to herself is something she must've heard a million times already. Finn too. But the thing is, Finn didn't provoke her, he deffended himself by shutting her up for good. Or not, considering that slap she gave him which was way out of line. But of course nothing is ever going to happen about that, because female-on-male assault is good on TV.

    I'd just like to point that I actually never really think all this much about the issues of the characters, I just like to be entertained by their dramas on-screen. But if we are going to analyze them, we should so properly. Santana was always, always in the wrong in this episode.
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  • Avatar of buildam2005

    buildam2005

    [29]Nov 18, 2011
    • member since: 05/30/08
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    fachizzzzle wrote:
    The Problem With the Finn v. Santana Debate

    For some reason people seem to feel the need to choose sides. Right now, the two sides are: "It's Finn's fault no matter how bad Santana treated him!", and "What happened to Santana was bad, but she had it coming!" By choosing to side with either Santana or Finn, people are missing the point that THEY ARE BOTH WRONG, AND ACTED HORRIBLY THIS EPISODE. The fact that people are choosing sides seems to be causing them to excuse the actions of the person who they are siding with. We should judge Finn and Santana's actions separately. Doing so reveals how both of them are wrong.

    The Problem With #TeamSantana
    First off, I love Santana. She's beautiful, she's funny, and she's SO TALENTED. That said, she's a total bully. Somoene on a different site made a good point that by valorizing Santana for her amusingly evil comments and actions, we're saying that it's okay to bully as long as you're pretty and do it in a clever way. If Finn had been making fun of Santana for her weight, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. On this episode, Santana experienced one of the worst things that can happen to someone. Her being outed, however, is a SEPARATE issue from her bullying.

    The Problem with #TeamFinn:
    One of the most disgusting parts of the Finn defense is this notion that Santana "had it coming." This is why we need to separate the issue of bullying from the issue of outing. It's totally okay to explain Finn's actions by saying that he had had enough, and he said something that he shouldn't have, but let's not JUSTIFY what he did by saying that Santana had it coming. It's only okay to come to Finn's defense, by saying that Santana had pushed him over the edge, as long as we acknowledge that he was wrong. We can explain what he did, but using Santana's actions to justify what he did is terrible.

    Ex Post Facto:
    Santana's inner turmoil does not justify her actions, and Finn's being bullied does not justify his actions. By constantly evaluating the choices of these characters in relation to one another, we minimize the issues of bullying and outing. Both parties were wrong, despite the fact that certain circumstances mitigate (NOT justify) their actions.

    Great episode, great debate.


    Excellently put. I also take issue with people justifying Santana slapping Finn. Finn obviously doesn't realize just how damaging what he said to her was (particularly because people could overhear it), and getting physically violent with him is not going to teach him the problem. It's mind-boggling that some people say he "deserved" that for what he did--so, apparently the way to educate people on the very delicate and complex nature of one's sexuality is physical violence? Yes, that seems like it will solve the problem.

    I'm certainly not saying we excuse Finn or that Santana has no right to be upset with him (although, come on--she has to have some self-awareness and see WHY he was saying those things to her). I don't justify Finn's actions, but I understand them completely.
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  • Avatar of fachizzzzle

    fachizzzzle

    [30]Nov 18, 2011
    • member since: 09/28/09
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    buildam2005 wrote:
    fachizzzzle wrote:
    The Problem With the Finn v. Santana Debate For some reason people seem to feel the need to choose sides. Right now, the two sides are: "It's Finn's fault no matter how bad Santana treated him!", and "What happened to Santana was bad, but she had it coming!" By choosing to side with either Santana or Finn, people are missing the point that THEY ARE BOTH WRONG, AND ACTED HORRIBLY THIS EPISODE. The fact that people are choosing sides seems to be causing them to excuse the actions of the person who they are siding with. We should judge Finn and Santana's actions separately. Doing so reveals how both of them are wrong. The Problem With #TeamSantana First off, I love Santana. She's beautiful, she's funny, and she's SO TALENTED. That said, she's a total bully. Somoene on a different site made a good point that by valorizing Santana for her amusingly evil comments and actions, we're saying that it's okay to bully as long as you're pretty and do it in a clever way. If Finn had been making fun of Santana for her weight, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. On this episode, Santana experienced one of the worst things that can happen to someone. Her being outed, however, is a SEPARATE issue from her bullying. The Problem with #TeamFinn: One of the most disgusting parts of the Finn defense is this notion that Santana "had it coming." This is why we need to separate the issue of bullying from the issue of outing. It's totally okay to explain Finn's actions by saying that he had had enough, and he said something that he shouldn't have, but let's not JUSTIFY what he did by saying that Santana had it coming. It's only okay to come to Finn's defense, by saying that Santana had pushed him over the edge, as long as we acknowledge that he was wrong. We can explain what he did, but using Santana's actions to justify what he did is terrible. Ex Post Facto: Santana's inner turmoil does not justify her actions, and Finn's being bullied does not justify his actions. By constantly evaluating the choices of these characters in relation to one another, we minimize the issues of bullying and outing. Both parties were wrong, despite the fact that certain circumstances mitigate (NOT justify) their actions. Great episode, great debate.
    Excellently put. I also take issue with people justifying Santana slapping Finn. Finn obviously doesn't realize just how damaging what he said to her was (particularly because people could overhear it), and getting physically violent with him is not going to teach him the problem. It's mind-boggling that some people say he "deserved" that for what he did--so, apparently the way to educate people on the very delicate and complex nature of one's sexuality is physical violence? Yes, that seems like it will solve the problem. I'm certainly not saying we excuse Finn or that Santana has no right to be upset with him (although, come on--she has to have some self-awareness and see WHY he was saying those things to her). I don't justify Finn's actions, but I understand them completely.



    Good point. I never thought about how people were justifying Santana's slapping Finn in the same way that others justify Finn's outing Santana. I finally rewatched the episode, and I think it's fascinating how what amounts to about eight minutes of dialogue has been debated and argued all week in comment sections throughout the web. When I first watched it, I knew exactly what I thought about the situation between Finn and Santana, but had no clue how nuanced and layered their scenes actually were. Kudos to you Glee writers.

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  • Avatar of jenny_d_b

    jenny_d_b

    [31]Nov 20, 2011
    • member since: 05/20/07
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    I felt sorry for Santana. I don't see how anyone can say that it was okay to out her. I felt Finn did it to truly hurt Santana and also to show Rory he wouldn't let her mess with him, because he was mad. He knew where it would hurt, and I can understand that - I used to be the same way, I'd get so mad I'd deliberately say whatever would hurt the other person most, even knowing it would crush them. Luckily I changed. But outing is serious. And especially when it got the consequences it did. Even Sue would never go that far - at first I suspected she might use Kurt as some kind of example when it came to arts, especially when Burt ran, kind of "look at his gay son dancing around in glitter costumes", but even she wouldn't go that far. And besides, I've always thought she kind of likes Kurt, for his guts. She even game him advice in this episode.

    Either way, calling someone fat, even though it can break you down, is truly in no way as bad as outing someone as a lesbian. And I love "You Make My Dreams" with Hall & Oates, so that medley was fun - same goes for the Adele mash-up.
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  • Avatar of RenatoB

    RenatoB

    [32]Nov 20, 2011
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    I didn't actually didn't care for either mash-up. The ones they did in the first two mash-up-centric episodes were far better, to me.
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  • Avatar of djboy77

    djboy77

    [33]Jan 6, 2012
    • member since: 06/26/10
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    RomanZolanski wrote:
    To every person that doesn't feel sympathy for Santana, fuck you. Unless you're LGBT, your opinions are invalid.


    I'm LGBT, so fuck you right back.


    Thank you for validating my opinion. Which has not changed.


    For the record, I never said it was okay for anyone to out her. However, her response was completely unacceptable, and legally qualifies as assault. Your attempts to make it one vs the other are appalling; neither excuses the other. You want me to feel sympathy for her? Then she should refrain from engaging in criminal assault. Because she just turned herself from being a victim of bullying into being an abuser. Being a girl, being gay or being outed is no excuse whatsoever.

    Edited on 01/06/2012 5:05am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of RenatoB

    RenatoB

    [34]Jan 6, 2012
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    You guys are focusing too much on the fact that she's gay and not enough on the fact that she's a bully. Finn himself said in the following episode he regretted what he did and that he worried she'd do something to hurt herself. Santana never felt that way. People kill themselves over being bullied. She doesn't care. She deserved something bad to happen to her that'd maybe teach her a lesson (for 2-3 episodes). So she got outed. That was harsh. That's a horrible thing to do to someone, it strips them of control and exposes their shame bare for the world to see. It's horrible. But she had it coming. I'm sorry, but she did.
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