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FOX (ended 2012)

How many Jews are there?

Percentage of Jewish ppl on House

  • Avatar of vampiredawn

    vampiredawn

    [61]Apr 14, 2009
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    (Until it's deleted....)

    Edited on 04/17/2009 7:38am
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    beowulf579

    [62]Apr 14, 2009
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    doarpr wrote:

    beowulf579 wrote:
    You state, "what is the right amount of Jewish people on the show" See...no one actually asked it in that manner, so you are O'reillying the statement. No one asked what the "right" amount is. I asked: A: The right amount considering supposed location B: Right amount considering the show's main occupation

    So if you ask about the right amount considering location and occupation, then it's not about "the right amount" and it's not stereotypical at all... I wonder who's really "O'reillying" now.

    And if 7 board participates choose the option of "the percentage of Jews is more then it should be", it is again not stereotypical or racist at all...

    Oh well, enjoy keep thinking that there's nothing wrong with that and all is well.



    Since there isn't anything wrong..I won't worry
    I will say that this has been a fascinating display make believe racism on your part. And more on topic, and the newest episode "Saviors". I guess Wilson is non-practicing in his Jewish faith since he normally eats bacon. Though I can't say that any characters, whether Jewish, Christian, Hindu...etc seem to follow too close to their faiths. Except House...he seems pretty straight on athiest and stays right on track there.
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  • Avatar of vampiredawn

    vampiredawn

    [63]Apr 14, 2009
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    beowulf579 wrote:
    doarpr wrote:

    beowulf579 wrote:
    You state, "what is the right amount of Jewish people on the show" See...no one actually asked it in that manner, so you are O'reillying the statement. No one asked what the "right" amount is. I asked: A: The right amount considering supposed location B: Right amount considering the show's main occupation

    So if you ask about the right amount considering location and occupation, then it's not about "the right amount" and it's not stereotypical at all... I wonder who's really "O'reillying" now.

    And if 7 board participates choose the option of "the percentage of Jews is more then it should be", it is again not stereotypical or racist at all...

    Oh well, enjoy keep thinking that there's nothing wrong with that and all is well.

    Since there isn't anything wrong..I won't worry I will say that this has been a fascinating display make believe racism on your part. And more on topic, and the newest episode "Saviors". I guess Wilson is non-practicing in his Jewish faith since he normally eats bacon. Though I can't say that any characters, whether Jewish, Christian, Hindu...etc seem to follow too close to their faiths. Except House...he seems pretty straight on athiest and stays right on track there.

    I think it's in Damned if you Do in season one that Wilson asks House over for dinner on Christmas Eve which prompts House to say, "You're Jewish!" to which Wilson replies, "It's food, it's company.." So yeah, I think it's safe to assume he's not living kosher

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    beowulf579

    [64]Apr 14, 2009
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    Beyond the naming ceremony Cuddy had....has any of the characters ever tried to be active in their faith? That can go for all the cast. I know Chase has said prayers before but thats all I can come up with on the spur of the moment.
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    silverlukas

    [65]Apr 15, 2009
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    doarpr wrote:
    House: "Welcome to the world. Everyone's different, everyone gets treated differently." I think you would agree that there's a reason why (most) people don't use the N word when they refer to African-Americans, or why certain non-pc words and attitudes towards gays/women/disabled people/name the minority have been almost abolished. I don't have to admit that "Counting Jews" does have certain very unpleasant (to most) associations - any history book will tell you that....
    I don't claim to be nothing but logical - human beings are, well, humans - not robots... A discussion about prejudice and racial stereotypes is bound to also be about beliefs, cultural background and emotions. So I can only suggest that rather then try and fight such an argument - try to think about how it feels.
    Yes, I cannot deny that the subject is connected with cultural background and emotions (and it wasn't irony when I said that I might be wrong). But when it's a matter of which thread should be erased and such strong labels as racism I think that there should be some kind of objective and logical criteria - because not only Jews is a sensitive subject, racism and freedom of speech are too. There has to be a real evidence of a negative attitude, imo the opening of this thread doesn't even include an actual trace of an attitude, especially negative. There's no equivalent of the N-word here.

    You are calling on sensitivity, but that's really ambiguous not only because of the potential presence of several touchy sides. After you suggested it, I'm going to try to explain how I think it feels and why I felt this argument is important:

    Being a "minority" doesn't only make you a target of possible hatred, it also makes people (even in such everyday casual stuff like Tv-show threads) tip-toe-ing around the subject of you, avoiding it, making it sound like that one thing that makes you a minority defines you to a point that you are not treated normally. I think that Jews have a right of meaningless/demographical/idiotic or wonderful threads devoted to them just like blue-ejed, or married, or females, or obese people have. Nighter of these categories of people should be offended, but they all have the right to be equally discussed, especially in forums. I know what's written in the history textbooks, but that's why it is called history - because if we want to move forward, we can't always make it present. You are saying that Jews is a different subject - but wouldn't be nice if it wasn't , if it was a normal one, and if Jews could feel (lets say) normal? How's that going to happen, if we dismiss talking about them in the way we talk about everybody else? The quote of House is of course a wise one, but you know, Hitler could have used the same argument, and House himself never felt any subject to be too sacred to be mentioned/discussed/mocked or researched. Imo him calling dwarfs dwarfs and so on was never just him being funny or rude, but exactly because he feels that if he talks to them differently, that's already a prejudice. And part of that prejudice is the thought that Jews/dwarfs/blacks have the inferioriy complex to be unhappy when they are recognised as such.

    doarpr wrote:
    And what's so stereotypical about asking if the "right amount" of Jews is o.k. "considering the show's main occupation?" Well, we all know Jews are either doctors or lawyers - nothing stereotypical about that...
    But on the first page someone said that "According to the Chicago chronicle, 14.1 percent of doctors identified themselves as Jewish vs 1.9 percent of the national population." If it is a truth how can be just a stereotype?

    doarpr wrote:
    And how nice it is to find out that at least 7 people here chose the first option - i.e. "there are more Jews then there should be based on national percentage"... So, to indulge those - which characters should the show eliminate based on their Jewish origins? Wilson? Cuddy? Taub?
    But you are making that bold! You are bolding the first part of the sentence literally and in every step of the way. That's not exactly taking it out of the context, because if context is a hidden submessage, you are taking it out of the mere text and inventing a context. There's miles of difference between "there are more Jews than there shoud be" and " ~ then there should be based on national percentage". The later could be paraphrased in "The percentage of Jews in the show is higher than the percentage of Jews in USA". That statement in both its variants is a factual sentence, it doesn't include attitude and doesn't even say that the show should be based on the national percentage. (plus it's part of a poll that includes another sentences but whatever). For example in the beginning when I indeed thought that in the show the Jews are probably more than in the real USA I never thought that this shouldn't be - because this is a product of Art and there isn't a law that says that Art should be based on reallity.

    OK, sorry for the so long ramble. I think we cleared our positions in almost every possible way. And I guess I should stop advocating the OP since s/he's here.

    So, if that turns out to be the end, see you in the next argument

    Edited on 04/15/2009 12:24am
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  • Avatar of doarpr

    doarpr

    [66]Apr 15, 2009
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    silverlukas wrote:
    Yes, I cannot deny that the subject is connected with cultural background and emotions (and it wasn't irony when I said that I might be wrong). But when it's a matter of which thread should be erased and such strong labels as racism I think that there should be some kind of objective and logical criteria - because not only Jews is a sensitive subject, racism and freedom of speech are too. There has to be a real evidence of a negative attitude, imo the opening of this thread doesn't even include an actual trace of an attitude, especially negative. There's no equivalent of the N-word here.
    I understand your view on this and totally agree that of course it's not only about Jews but about the freedom of speech too. The thing is, there are pretty clear guidelines about which thread fits to "live" on the board and I recall many harmless threads that have been erased by the Mod because they didn't deal directly with the show according to these guidelines - and I don't recall there was any problem of "freedom of speech" there.

    In any case, I do think that the way the poll was given is indeed very similar to using the N word. "Counting the Jews" based on location and occupation and asking if that's too little or too much is imo nothing but stereotypical and racist. If this was a discussion on a Social Studies board, then it might have at least been justified on some levels - but I still don't see the justification here, nor the contribution to our understanding of the show or characters.

    As for the rest of your argument, I really appreciate the time and thought you have given it, unlike those who tried to make a joke of the whole discussion here and on other threads.

    I do understand your point - that sometimes P.C. talk is crippling our abilities to argue. Actually House is well known for trying to point that out - sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. I was always quite vocal about it, including when (can't recall on which ep) House was comparing a disease to the train system in Berlin and implying that the Germans are still Nazis - a totally useless and insulting metaphor that caused a lot of grief to a German board participant at the time. Many didn't see the problem then, but I supported her view that this silly and degrading metaphor shouldn't have been there in the first place. And no, I don't think this thread is on that level - I'm just using it as an example to show I don't go on crussades only on behalf of the Jewish people...

    Freedom of speech is limited even by law when it provokes hatred, and as crippling as P.C. talk is, I and hopefully many others, still prefer it to the insulting and degrading "free" talk that was so common years ago - about minorities of any kind.

    We have discussed Wilson and Cuddy being Jewish endless times here and there was never a problem, nor should there be. I can assure you that if this thread wasn't just about "counting how many Jews are on the show" - there wouldn't be a problem on my part either.

    silverlukas wrote:
    OK, sorry for the so long ramble. I think we cleared our positions in almost every possible way. And I guess I should stop advocating the OP since s/he's here.

    So, if that turns out to be the end, see you in the next argument

    I hope the show will provide us with interesting topics to discuss and argue about...

    Edited on 04/15/2009 4:17am
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  • Avatar of vampiredawn

    vampiredawn

    [67]Apr 15, 2009
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    Fantastic points again, silverlukas I also feel that it's offending in itself to ignore people's backgrounds, cultural and otherwise, just as I'd prefer that people not ignore my choice of religion, and would be happy to talk about it

    Speaking of freedom of speech, doarpr's memory is not what it used to be, because she doesn't recall that the deleting of those "harmless threads" have caused NUMEROUS complaints, outcries and general annoyance with the moderator here because House quizzes, games, and actor threads were not allowed. Not least by me. It is annoying that you can't have everything your way, but a message board is not a democracy, and we all have to suck it up or find other places to go, if we're unhappy with the choice of topics here

    Talking about whether or not the representation of Jews on a show is equivalent to the representation in the population, or in the field of work, is not racist, just like talking about obese people or number of blue eyed or fair haired or dark haired people, of which there are many on the show, which is unusual, or homosexual people, is not offending, racist, discriminating, insulting, or anything else that we're accused of. Such an accusation would never hold up in any court, because there is no proof of any negative attitude.

    The topic is perhaps not terribly interesting or on topic, but if that is what peeves doarpr, which her latest post seems to suggest (when you can't win one argument, find another, right?), I suggest she go and play in another sandbox. This equivalent of going to a concert you don't like and then complain about the music is getting a bit old.
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    shui3

    [68]Apr 15, 2009
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    beowulf579 wrote:
    Beyond the naming ceremony Cuddy had....has any of the characters ever tried to be active in their faith? That can go for all the cast. I know Chase has said prayers before but thats all I can come up with on the spur of the moment.


    In Merry Little Christmas we see David's star hanging in Wilson's office when he and Cameron are talking...but otherwise,I think apart from House's jokes or monologues,religion isn't important to other doctors on the show. Cameron is an atheist, Chase is/was catcholic,Foreman...not sure,Cuddy, Wilson and Taub are Jewish by birth but hardly practing as far as we've seen and 13 is probably atheist like Cameron.
    House seems to be more of an agnostic than atheist but that's personal opinion.

    For the poll itself it would be good if you posted the percentage for the polls so we could compare with the show..

    Edited on 04/15/2009 8:46am
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  • Avatar of silverlukas

    silverlukas

    [69]Apr 17, 2009
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    doarpr wrote:
    I understand your view on this and totally agree that of course it's not only about Jews but about the freedom of speech too. The thing is, there are pretty clear guidelines about which thread fits to "live" on the board and I recall many harmless threads that have been erased by the Mod because they didn't deal directly with the show according to these guidelines - and I don't recall there was any problem of "freedom of speech" there.

    I see you mean deleting because it's offtopic and not a discussion. In regard to our conversation (the way I saw it), that's "trivia", because I was arguing whether it should be erased on racist basis (and considered racist at all). I don't know exactly what kind of threads have been deleted, but as I see the one about the blue-eyed people is still here In any means if the thread is not acceptable just because of the particular guideline here, it isn't about these universal...values we were discussing and I'm not sure if it worths discussing at all.

    On the whole I see that the main difference between our points of view is that you consider the case similar to the N-word and I don't. In my Oxford English dictionary the entry for the N-word begins with " :! derog. offensive". It's accepted as part of the meaning of the word. Imo here it isn't about reading of input meanings, but interpretation of probable ulterior motives. But as I see that you sense it differently and that cannot be changed.

    I have only one thing to add on the subject and it is actually on your behalf. I researched the phrase "counting the Jews" and I found this article. I wasn't aware that Jewish people have religious believes against counting. "Part of it has to do with going back to the Torah -- the notion of counting people. It was believed that if you know somebody's number or name, you know their essence, and that is a prerogative reserved for God alone". This isn't exactly related to the (secular) thread here, because we are talking about invented characters and not counting in means of pronouncing 1, 2, 3... but in any case I thought I should share this.

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    silverlukas

    [70]Apr 17, 2009
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    beowulf579 wrote:
    And yes..in a manner olgkap, Hoeech did answer it. But if I recall...there wasn't a show mentioned that had a higher percentage...right? So *gasp* there was point to be made then. I'll let you all decide what that point it. House could figure it out.

    But we are not House. So if your thread was to make a point why don't you just spill it out already?

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    tuckgraph

    [71]Apr 17, 2009
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    silverlukas wrote:

    beowulf579 wrote:
    And yes..in a manner olgkap, Hoeech did answer it. But if I recall...there wasn't a show mentioned that had a higher percentage...right? So *gasp* there was point to be made then. I'll let you all decide what that point it. House could figure it out.

    But we are not House. So if your thread was to make a point why don't you just spill it out already?


    There's not a point, in as much there is an agenda. Look at the first comments on this thread, the creator was already prepared to defend the purpose of the thread. Then read (or read again) all the comments. How many of those comments have to do with House? But it's all okay, as long as the moderator thinks it's okay. Offending people is not off limits, because you can't control when, why, or how someone is offended.

    But if you look at the percentages, the comments that pertain to House the TV show, that can help to ascertain the value of any thread in a House forum.
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    vampiredawn

    [72]Apr 17, 2009
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    tuckgraph wrote:
    silverlukas wrote:

    beowulf579 wrote:
    And yes..in a manner olgkap, Hoeech did answer it. But if I recall...there wasn't a show mentioned that had a higher percentage...right? So *gasp* there was point to be made then. I'll let you all decide what that point it. House could figure it out.

    But we are not House. So if your thread was to make a point why don't you just spill it out already?

    There's not a point, in as much there is an agenda. Look at the first comments on this thread, the creator was already prepared to defend the purpose of the thread. Then read (or read again) all the comments. How many of those comments have to do with House? But it's all okay, as long as the moderator thinks it's okay. Offending people is not off limits, because you can't control when, why, or how someone is offended. But if you look at the percentages, the comments that pertain to House the TV show, that can help to ascertain the value of any thread in a House forum.

    The amount of comments not related to House has to do with the argument that it spurred, so it's not fair to include them, since they weren't supposed to be there. If you take them out of the equasion, there are plenty of comments in this thread that has to do with House

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    jackfloyd1973

    [73]May 12, 2009
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    taub seems to be reform jewish, he mentioned that he wasn't even going to be more reformist. wilson also reformist, orthodox keep kosher and kosher is very similar to halal, wilson does not keep kosher since he eats bacon and has it in his fridge (did not look like turkey bacon, have never seen kosher bacon and have only once seen halal bacon), reformists are known to not keep kosher as a rule, a few maybe as personal preference or health reasons. i don't think that cuddy is jewish, she just had a jewish ceremony for her adopted kid as a matter of culture, just as atheists are known to have christian weddings and other ceremonies, just because your parents are a specific religion dosn't make you of that religion, were i live there are a sizable amount of budhists and hindus, some who are converts whose ancesters are roman catholic. religion is also very tied to a persons culture such as celebrating ST. Patricks day which is connected to irish culture but also celebrated by people who are neither catholic nor irish.
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    atheistguy

    [74]Oct 5, 2009
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    hi there,

    first of all I'm surprised this discussion here is that calm AND the thread hasn't bee closed.

    a very few words about me: living in germany, atheist

    jep, I'm not a freind of religions, BUT this is not about it.

    I LOVE watchin house, I love the characters in the show and I don't have anything against jews.

    It was pretty obvious for me that there are many people on the show which are jewish, and that's all.

    it would be like comparing that allt the moslem people here in germany sells kebap.
    Actually, I hope they do. A kebap from a german guy would be very strange and I would definitely not buy it.
    Why? Because it's not their thing. Germans should sell the stuff THEY are good in. Every culture has great things to offer.
    Ignoring cultural specialties would be like offending them and definitely racist.

    It is not a rasistic fact to say, that there are a bunch of jewish people in the show house that in 24, for example.

    However, I don't really care, and I will still love this show if everybody would be jewish, or moslem or whatever.

    It is just interesting. And I'm not into stereotypes.

    Think of what House would say. Same with me here.

    It's just interesting and I really don't care.

    take care

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  • Avatar of lalalolo

    lalalolo

    [75]May 29, 2012
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    It seems that when ever someone asks something or raises a Q regarding jewish people , someone else raises an eyebrow as if it was a tabo .... well it is not... he who wants to be offended ... hes problem ... NO SECRET .... NO SECRET AT ALL .... that House has alot of jewish people in it (more than the statistics of population) Friends for an ex. had 3 main carachters .... MONICA. ROS AND JOE .... not to include their parents ... (here you go with 50% of main theme carechters) .... NO AGENDA AT ALL... BUT TO SAY THESE THINGS WITCH ARE FACTS... HAVE BECOME AS IF ONE IS AN ANTI-SAMETIC .... well.... IM SURE AS HELL NOT .... "if you had no agenda whats the point?" well freedom of speach "ahh so you do have an agenda"
    No you call it agenda , I CALL IT A BIRTH GIVEN RIGHT
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