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ABC (ended 2010)

My thoughts on the finale, is everyone missing the real twist?

  • Avatar of DARKANGEL_42

    DARKANGEL_42

    [1]May 29, 2010
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    Now before I get started I want to try and bridge the gap a little between the haters and the apologists and to say that if you give it a change this final was everything we were promised, although you need to give it several watches through and use your head a little. When i first saw it I was disappointed, like WAS THAT IT? But having watched it 3 times now and having been re-watching series 5 on DVD I think that most people have over simplified the ending and so been left disappointed.


    First a few pointers that this ending was thought out and not just thrown in at the end. If you notice in series 5 when Hurley is visited be Ana Lucia and Charlie, they are wearing almost identical clothes to those in the alti-verse, is this a hint to the fact that this alternative world is outside of time, and can run parallel to ours? Think about all the other times characters in Lost were visited by ghosts, Boone appearing to Locke for example.


    Secondly, and this is the most important i think, the Church at the end, is the same one they visit in season 5 to meet Eloise and find the island. it is where the "Lamp Post" is and how she finds the island, in that church! So the church is a symbol of finding the island. Now i see the alti-verse as a kind of shared dream state, probably powered by the island, or by the effect the island had on them. They all had baggage they had to "let go" of and so could not remember who they are or each other (Jack wanting to be a good father, Sawyer wanting to do good, Locke married to Helen but still haunted by his father) and only when they found something they had loved or cared for in the real world did they remember. They must have also remembered that they had died and were called to the church. Why? Because the church symbolises finding faith, hope, love and THE ISLAND. At the end Christain opens the doors and there is a bright light, so everyone is like "oh it was purgatory and they go to heaven, how lame." But where have we seen a bright light before on the show? When Desmond switched the fail safe, when Ben moved the island (re-watch that episode in particular because the effect they use with the light is pretty much identical) and so the light at the end is the heart if the island. If the light in the island stands for the human soul or spirit (Jacobs mother says there is a little bit of the light in everyone, and if it goes out on the island it goes out everywhere) then the losties souls/spirits are being rejoined to the island, maybe to become part of the source (think the end of the matrix when the dead Neo is taken back to the source to restart it) maybe that is what makes the heart of the island the souls/spirits of the people who have been there?


    Many were annoyed there were no answers given in the final, but most were given before. We now know how Jacob came to the island, how the smoke monster came into being and if we read between the lines can see the sense of the light. Jacobs brother said that many people had dug wholes on the island, maybe some time before people dug down and found the source, then plugged it so only a bit shone through and then they created a pool. Why? Well again Jacobs brother said he would use the wheel to mix water and light so he could leave, when his mother asked him how he knew this he just said he was special. She looked shocked and did not dismiss his idea, so obviously he was right, and the pool ( water) must be needed as well as the light. When Jack has put the stone back in, nothing happens until it starts to fill with water again, showing that Man in Black was right (maybe he talked to more ghosts or just knew, like Locke did for somethings or Walt. In Lost some people are just "special")


    Anyway I think that makes for a much more poignant ending as we go full circle and they return to the island in some form, if you don't believe me re-watch seasons 5 and 6, and you will see it all falls into place.



    Please feel free to comment now....

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  • Avatar of ajokurvanyad

    ajokurvanyad

    [2]May 29, 2010
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    these theories are all long shots.i get it now how come people assume the cave is the source of all life from what was in the pool,water and light.right,symbolism.but everything else is just random nonsense;the corke and the donkey wheel,gime a break.


    you also said we get the answers and you pointed out the origin of big smoke.now i wrote this in another thread but the whole vending machine explanation isn't exactly an answer

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  • Avatar of Guildy

    Guildy

    [3]May 29, 2010
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    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:


    Now before I get started I want to try and bridge the gap a little between the haters and the apologists and to say that if you give it a change this final was everything we were promised, although you need to give it several watches through and use your head a little. When i first saw it I was disappointed, like WAS THAT IT? But having watched it 3 times now and having been re-watching series 5 on DVD I think that most people have over simplified the ending and so been left disappointed.


    First a few pointers that this ending was thought out and not just thrown in at the end. If you notice in series 5 when Hurley is visited be Ana Lucia and Charlie, they are wearing almost identical clothes to those in the alti-verse, is this a hint to the fact that this alternative world is outside of time, and can run parallel to ours? Think about all the other times characters in Lost were visited by ghosts, Boone appearing to Locke for example.



    Now, what that tells me is that either the alti-verse was NOT "purgatory", or they died early on. Hurley's gift of being able to see and talk to the dead was made a pretty big deal throughout the series, and it was even confirmed as such by Jacob. If his visits were from "purgatory", for one, what was Ana-Lucia doing there? As Desmond said in the finale, "She's not coming with us. She's not ready yet." And Boone appeared to Locke during a drug induced dream state. That's a hell of a good buzz, if it brings the dead to teach you a lesson.


    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:


    Secondly, and this is the most important i think, the Church at the end, is the same one they visit in season 5 to meet Eloise and find the island. it is where the "Lamp Post" is and how she finds the island, in that church! So the church is a symbol of finding the island.



    I don't know if it is, but Christian said in the show that the alti-verse is a place they all created so they could meet up to move on.


    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:


    Now i see the alti-verse as a kind of shared dream state, probably powered by the island, or by the effect the island had on them. They all had baggage they had to "let go" of and so could not remember who they are or each other (Jack wanting to be a good father, Sawyer wanting to do good, Locke married to Helen but still haunted by his father) and only when they found something they had loved or cared for in the real world did they remember.



    You have some really good theories here, ones that I like better than the show. Unfortunately, the show keep shooting them down. Locke had Helen in the alti-verse. She was the one person he ever really cared about. Even after 3 years on the Island, he still searched for her as Jeremy Bentham. How are Jack, Desmond, or Ben more important to him than Helen? I mean, I accept Sayid and Shannon, but Locke caring more for the losties than Helen??


    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:


    They must have also remembered that they had died and were called to the church. Why? Because the church symbolises finding faith, hope, love and THE ISLAND. At the end Christain opens the doors and there is a bright light, so everyone is like "oh it was purgatory and they go to heaven, how lame." But where have we seen a bright light before on the show? When Desmond switched the fail safe, when Ben moved the island (re-watch that episode in particular because the effect they use with the light is pretty much identical) and so the light at the end is the heart if the island. If the light in the island stands for the human soul or spirit (Jacobs mother says there is a little bit of the light in everyone, and if it goes out on the island it goes out everywhere) then the losties souls/spirits are being rejoined to the island, maybe to become part of the source (think the end of the matrix when the dead Neo is taken back to the source to restart it) maybe that is what makes the heart of the island the souls/spirits of the people who have been there?



    Again, you're tying things up together a lot better then the writers did. But Christian is the one who tells us they're dead, and this place is something they've all made up to meet up and move on. The fact that the light is the same is part of the problem. There was a chance to tie up the series as you've done, but the writers didn't just ignore it, they locked it in a cell and bricked up the doorway. We shouldn't have to re-write the ending in order to make it fit right.


    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:


    Many were annoyed there were no answers given in the final, but most were given before. We now know how Jacob came to the island, how the smoke monster came into being



    Well, what we know is Jacob was born on the Island. We also know that Samuel was sent into the light, and Smoky came out. Was Smokey a part of Samuel? Is it really just Smoky using the form of a dead man? We know he can. Was Smoky created through the act of murder? Is it because Jacob killed his brother and sent his murdered corpse into the Light? Like someone else said, the vending machine answer isn't really an answer at all. It's like answer the question of "Why?" with "Because."


    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:


    and if we read between the lines can see the sense of the light. Jacobs brother said that many people had dug wholes on the island, maybe some time before people dug down and found the source, then plugged it so only a bit shone through and then they created a pool. Why? Well again Jacobs brother said he would use the wheel to mix water and light so he could leave, when his mother asked him how he knew this he just said he was special. She looked shocked and did not dismiss his idea, so obviously he was right, and the pool ( water) must be needed as well as the light. When Jack has put the stone back in, nothing happens until it starts to fill with water again, showing that Man in Black was right (maybe he talked to more ghosts or just knew, like Locke did for somethings or Walt. In Lost some people are just "special")



    His answer to his mother "Because I'm special, Mother.", was a direct response to what she had told him as a child. "Jacob doesn't know how to lie, he's too good." "What about me, Mother?" "You're... special." He was being as deliberately vague to her as she had been to him. If you lsiten to the tone of his voice, he is quite clearly taunting her with this answer.


    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:


    Anyway I think that makes for a much more poignant ending as we go full circle and they return to the island in some form, if you don't believe me re-watch seasons 5 and 6, and you will see it all falls into place.



    Please feel free to comment now....



    I agree, that DOES make a better ending.. its a shame the writers didn't put it together like that. And that's not me being a dick, either.

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  • Avatar of DARKANGEL_42

    DARKANGEL_42

    [4]May 29, 2010
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    I know you said we shouldn't have to re-write the ending for it to make sense, and part of me wishes that the ending was more clear, but sometimes that is what writers do. they leave us hanging with an idea and ask us to piece it together ourselves. I had the same feeling at the end of the matrix trilogy, cheated of a true answer. Then reading some threads online and re-watching it you start to see where the writers were going. I think it was Michael Emerson that was quoted as saying that watching Lost will feel like having read a good novel, he said this because in novels nore than TV or film, writers leave open ended conclusions. the back lash lost has got from some reviewers is probably why we don't see this more on TV. I'm from the UK and a real disappointment was Ashes to Ashes, where in the end it WAS that they were dead all the time and so nothing really mattered. Some have related Lost's enidng to Lord of the RIngs. We get a conclusion to the story, but we are also left we an afterlife of some sort where everyone can meet up again when they die, not the most loriginal idea I'll admit but better than "it was all a dream" or something lame like that


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  • Avatar of DARKANGEL_42

    DARKANGEL_42

    [5]May 29, 2010
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    OK so just re-watched the season 5 episode 316. Eloise at the Lamp Post station says that the station, and therefore the church, was built on a small pocket of energy linked to the energy on the island. This further supports the idea that the church is a link to the island. As i said before this may explain why the losties in the alt-universe feel called to the church, as it is the only place in LA with a direct link to the island.



    Again the white light at the end seems to me more and more obvious that they are returning to the island in some form and not the after life. When the island is time skipping, we get the white light, when Jack, Hurley,Kate and Sayeed return to the island there is a white light then they disappear from the plane. There is even a white light at the end of season 5 when Juliet hits the bomb. So white light = island or something strange happening on the island, or people moving through time (or between realities). I see no other reference in Lost to heaven or an afterlife, so surely the light is the island and not the after life, making the ending sooo much better and fitting with Lost mythologies and story so far, rather than the happy ever after idea.

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    OOsteb

    [6]May 29, 2010
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    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:


    OK so just re-watched the season 5 episode 316. Eloise at the Lamp Post station says that the station, and therefore the church, was built on a small pocket of energy linked to the energy on the island. This further supports the idea that the church is a link to the island. As i said before this may explain why the losties in the alt-universe feel called to the church, as it is the only place in LA with a direct link to the island.


    Again the white light at the end seems to me more and more obvious that they are returning to the island in some form and not the after life.


    Just read the posts. This is what I thought too. I actually thought that they were back in Eloise's church. Maybe they become the Whisperers on the Island or appear to the "New " Candidates to help them out. :-) I still don't understand why leave a place YOU created for your self, where you get what you want. Eloise & Ben have it right, Why leave if your happy.

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    ajokurvanyad

    [7]May 30, 2010
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    so the island is feeding on people's souls??!!you can't associate every flash of light to the island.i mean what about flash grenades then? )) that was stupid but u prolly get my point

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    OOsteb

    [8]May 30, 2010
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    I figured that the Darmah people broke thru to the light source and when the bomb when it went off, it created the first time travel flash.

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    Guildy

    [9]May 30, 2010
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    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:


    I know you said we shouldn't have to re-write the ending for it to make sense, and part of me wishes that the ending was more clear, but sometimes that is what writers do. they leave us hanging with an idea and ask us to piece it together ourselves. I had the same feeling at the end of the matrix trilogy, cheated of a true answer. Then reading some threads online and re-watching it you start to see where the writers were going. I think it was Michael Emerson that was quoted as saying that watching Lost will feel like having read a good novel, he said this because in novels nore than TV or film, writers leave open ended conclusions. the back lash lost has got from some reviewers is probably why we don't see this more on TV. I'm from the UK and a real disappointment was Ashes to Ashes, where in the end it WAS that they were dead all the time and so nothing really mattered. Some have related Lost's enidng to Lord of the RIngs. We get a conclusion to the story, but we are also left we an afterlife of some sort where everyone can meet up again when they die, not the most loriginal idea I'll admit but better than "it was all a dream" or something lame like that




    But you see, it isn't that they left it open ended at all. They had their ending, and painted it into a fairly tight corner. The Altiverse isn't real. It only exists for the characters to meet up in after they die. They left out what everyone else did after.. really, I'd say after season five. Now, if they had said the characters died in the explosion, and that ALL of season six was an NDE, I might be able to accept that. As it stands, the Island story was rushed through to make room for the NDE of people who died a llong time after Jack did.


    And that's another point: If it's been Jack's story all along, why did the other characters get flashbacks and episodes devoted entirely them? What relevance to Desmond and Penny's backstory have to Jack? The characters are releveant, but Desmond in prison, in the army, in a monastery? The extent to which each character's history was explored means nothing if it is simply Jack's story.


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    jrosace92

    [10]May 30, 2010
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    Guildy wrote:

    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:


    Now before I get started I want to try and bridge the gap a little between the haters and the apologists and to say that if you give it a change this final was everything we were promised, although you need to give it several watches through and use your head a little. When i first saw it I was disappointed, like WAS THAT IT? But having watched it 3 times now and having been re-watching series 5 on DVD I think that most people have over simplified the ending and so been left disappointed.


    First a few pointers that this ending was thought out and not just thrown in at the end. If you notice in series 5 when Hurley is visited be Ana Lucia and Charlie, they are wearing almost identical clothes to those in the alti-verse, is this a hint to the fact that this alternative world is outside of time, and can run parallel to ours? Think about all the other times characters in Lost were visited by ghosts, Boone appearing to Locke for example.



    Now, what that tells me is that either the alti-verse was NOT "purgatory", or they died early on. Hurley's gift of being able to see and talk to the dead was made a pretty big deal throughout the series, and it was even confirmed as such by Jacob. If his visits were from "purgatory", for one, what was Ana-Lucia doing there? As Desmond said in the finale, "She's not coming with us. She's not ready yet." And Boone appeared to Locke during a drug induced dream state. That's a hell of a good buzz, if it brings the dead to teach you a lesson.



    Ana Lucia was there because it WAS purgatory. Purgatory is where people remain until they are "ready". So it makes sense that she was there.
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    DARKANGEL_42

    [11]May 30, 2010
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    Guildy wrote:


    But you see, it isn't that they left it open ended at all. They had their ending, and painted it into a fairly tight corner. The Altiverse isn't real. It only exists for the characters to meet up in after they die. They left out what everyone else did after.. really, I'd say after season five. Now, if they had said the characters died in the explosion, and that ALL of season six was an NDE, I might be able to accept that. As it stands, the Island story was rushed through to make room for the NDE of people who died a llong time after Jack did




    I don't dispute that, its just that everyone seems to assume that the light is heaven or the after life. What if, as I hypothesised, the light is the island, or the heart of the island, and somehow they are going back there. I think they left it open to some interpretation, is it heaven or is it the island, but very few people are even thinking about it, and as I said before it would make sense since the light is used to symbolise things happening on the island or people moving to the island (as in season 5).


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    pjamese3

    [12]May 30, 2010
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    I think the alt-verse was a group world created for them to meet up again - and work out whatever issues they still had. It's where everyone touched by the island went when they died. But that doesn't mean they all died around the same time (or in the season 5 explosion.) Some died in the previous seasons, some (like Jin and Sun) died near the end. Some like the handful who got away in the plane probably died decades later. Jack's father said there was no time there. So however long it took one of the characters to die, they fit right into the alt-verse when they did. And they get to work out their issues.
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    Kevnay777

    [13]May 30, 2010
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    I really like your theory because it makes sense but unfortunately one person pretty much disproves it, Christian. He told Jack that this was a place to let go and move on, he was talking about alt universe/purgatory. So if they would have gone back to the island that wouldn't mean letting go. They have to let go of their past lives on the island in order to move on. Which is why the light can't mean that they will go back to the island. Like I said your theory does make sense and I like it but Christian pretty much disproves the theory.

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    lostfan111

    [14]May 30, 2010
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    I still dont understand your theory.
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    hal9000_basic

    [15]May 31, 2010
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    The point they were trying to make is: what really matters is the journey, not the end. And from the journey the relationships you form along the way. For me, this was a satisfying conclusion. As far as having some unanswered questions, well, that's been part of the appeal of the show anyway. In the end it was a character-driven story of human redemption.

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    lostfan111

    [16]May 31, 2010
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    hal9000_basic wrote:


    The point they were trying to make is: what really matters is the journey, not the end. And from the journey the relationships you form along the way. For me, this was a satisfying conclusion. As far as having some unanswered questions, well, that's been part of the appeal of the show anyway. In the end it was a character-driven story of human redemption.




    But the writers never projected the show as this. They always had mysteries and questions making us think it was important. That was the whole point of the first six seasons. And now they're basically saying none of it matters and they misled us.

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    DARKANGEL_42

    [17]May 31, 2010
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    I don't think they're saying that none of it matters. Why else have episodes like Across the Sea and Ab Aeterno if they did not want to answer some of the mythological and mysterious questions. They never said the finale would answer all the questions, they said that the final season would answer many of the questions, and it did. The finale just wrapped up the story on the island, killing smokey, leaving Hurley in charge as protector, and the flash sideways. Even if the light is the afterlife, and they all lived happily ever after then that does not make the actions pointless, just that they found each other in the end. If the light is the heart of the island, then that answers a lot of theories. For example I've heard one similar to mine, that the heart of the island contains peoples souls, and that since smokey was made from the light, he was able to tap into the light to use dead peoples souls to impersonate them and thats also how he had all their memories.


    This means all they did was for a purpose as joining the heart of the island they contribute to its power, several times in Lost it is hinted that the island is somehow alive or has powers. Michael couldn't kill himself because the island wasn't finished with him yet, Ben says a similar thing to Jack in season 5. the island is not finished with him, not Jacob but the island. It also helps answer the Nadia/Shannon debate. Nadia was not there in the end because she had not connection to the island, but Shannon did. maybe it was the effect the island had on them that allowed them to create this alternative world in the first place.

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    ajokurvanyad

    [18]May 31, 2010
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    DARKANGEL_42 wrote:
    For example I've heard one similar to mine, that the heart of the island contains peoples souls, and that since smokey was made from the light, he was able to tap into the light to use dead peoples souls to impersonate them and thats also how he had all their memories.


    isn't that an episode of ghost whisperer?i know you like j.l.hewit,we'd like her to if she'd lose that fat but still keep the boobs.so if there's something strange in your neighborhood.Who ya gonna call?JESSICA SIMPSON

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    Kevnay777

    [19]May 31, 2010
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    The problem was the promos saying that "Questions will be answered". Made us think that the episode was going to focus on answering questions. I think they should have extended the season to at 20 or over episodes. That way they can maybe squeeze in more episodes like "Across the Sea" and "Ab Aeterno" to answer more questions, and still end the series like they did.

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    pjamese3

    [20]May 31, 2010
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    I think it all did matter. Up until the hydrogen bomb exploded, everything that happened happened. Afterwards, everything that happened on the island happened. The rest in the alternate reality wasn't the bomb shunting them to an alternate reality, but rather the afterlife world created by thm in terms they could understand. All the bomb did (unconjunction with the electromagnetic forces) was send them all back to the present day.

    There are several clues that point to his: 1) Outside the church, Hurley and Ben remark that they had worked well together, inferring a long, friendly association, with Ben serving as Hurley's "Richard." with no 'Man in black' to deal with, this partnership could have gone on for centuries.

    2) Jack's father Christian said as much with, "everyone dies sometime, kiddo. Some before you, some long after you." When Jack asks why everyone is here now, Christian responds that "There is no now, here", and that this is a place they all made together to find each other.

    So the only part that was "all in their heads" was the alternate reality. The rest - to include the survivors flying off the island and whatever lives they led afterward - happened.
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