Lost Forums

ABC (ended 2010)

Who really crashed the plane?

  • Avatar of KingofIPirates

    KingofIPirates

    [21]Jun 15, 2010
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    ajokurvanyad wrote:
    i remember that bit from across the sea,but jacob offered richard the mediator job,no word of the others.they became richard's posse,his entourage?
    Yes that seems to be what eventually happened.
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  • Avatar of Kevnay777

    Kevnay777

    [22]Jun 16, 2010
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    ajokurvanyad wrote:


    @kevnay


    jacob's only objective wasn't to find a replacement.he was also trying to prove a point,wich he made clear from the end of season 5,the whole "everything in between is progress" thing.


    also if he was only bringing candidates why'd he bring the whole dharma initiative to the island?surely they weren't all candidates.that would be to convinient.


    as for the not interfering bit,he did interfer.he pulled sayid away from certeine death...and i'm pretty sure it was his "divine intervention" that allowed locke to survive a freefall from the conman penthouse suite.


    finaly it's about time i adress the topic as well i guess )) technically it's desmond's fault.he chose to abandon the button,but it would be again to big of a coincidence so jacob might have had a hand in the timing there.proly did.bastard.



    I don't know but I always thought Jacob and Smokey's little game about people and corruption was only temporary. In my opinion it was just a game that started during the early times of Jacob's reign on the island. It was probably a couple of years after "Across the Sea" because Mother had the same beliefs too about corruption. Then maybe hundreds of years after that, they got tired of the game. Hundreds of years later Jacob decided that he couldn't be leader forever (maybe he got bored, smokey kept trying to kill him, etc...) so then he made a list of candidates and brought them to the island. But we don't know for sure the chronological order of those events because they were never revealed but its just my own opinion that the corruption thing was just a little temporary game, and later Jacob finding his replacement was the main focus for him. Also about the whole Dharma initiative, I think Jacob only choose a couple of candidates but since they were associated with the whole initiative, thats why they all showed up. Its kind of like if I invited you to my party but you decided to bring your close friend along and I didn't plan on that happening.


    For the interfering thing I think you meant the off island interaction Jacob had with Sayid. Well anyways Jacob didn't really save Sayid. His only intention was to talk to Sayid so he can touch him and make him a candidate. The car accident in my opinion was pure timing, to me Jacob didn't have a thing to do with it. I really don't think Jacob is that magical. Like everyone says that he makes people candidates and somehow actually brings them to the island using his own forces. Well I don't think so. I think Jacob is just the protector and he only has three abilities..


    1. He can't age and therefore is immortal by not being able to die of old age but he can die. He also can't commit suicide (rules of protector)


    2.He can give someone his ability to not age/can't commit suicide- Richard (both abilities), candidates (Non suicide ability)


    3.He can transfer the abilities to a candidate so he/she can become the new protector


    This might anger some people but in my opinion they just happened to crash on the island.


    Other theories/thoughts (just my own opinions)


    Candidates-Jacob just simply picks who he thinks is worthy and that person is a candidate. He also picks people that seem to be "lost" with their lives.


    For the rules of the candidates- Nothing magical is going on. Sometime during the past Jacob and Smokey probably agreed to some rules that Jacob made up. We know that Mother had rules too which is why Jacob and MIB couldn't hurt each other. Jacob probably continued that rule and made new rules too. Its actually kind of simple. Take the game Dungeons and Dragons for example. That is a role playing game were the "Dungeon Master" makes up the rules to a new game that the players can play, and then they all play by those rules. So if I were the Dungeon Master and I had 4 players (player A, B, C, D). So my rules are that whoever is the last one standing wins but player A can't kill player D, therefore the players have to follow my rules of the game. So since Jacob is the protector (relate it to the Dungeon Master) he made the rules and one of them was that smokey can't kill the candidates)It seems pretty stupid but thats just how it is. I mean this is Lost right? A lot of things don't make sense.


    Smokey's containment- Maybe Jacob just thought that if smokey ever got off the island it could turn into the smoke monster and just go on a killing rampage. Also smokey can take the form of dead people and therefore it can manipulate people into doing whatever it wants.


    Is Desmond to blame for crashing the plane?


    No it is not. Yes Desmond was in charge of pushing the button but some force outside of his own control affected him and resulted in the 815 crashing. That force is his partner betraying him because he did not know this and he was too shocked and couldn't control his emotions and killed him. Then Des panicked and finally remembered about the button but it was already too late.


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  • Avatar of ajokurvanyad

    ajokurvanyad

    [23]Jun 17, 2010
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    Kevnay777 wrote:


    I don't know but I always thought Jacob and Smokey's little game about people and corruption was only temporary.



    where'd you get that idea?jacob wasn't showing himself even when the last bunch of candidates arrived to the island.he was still playing the "they should know what the righ thing is without me having to tell them" game.if he wasn't trying to make a point to big smoke anymore then why didn't he just warn these people from day 1,maybe this way a whole bunch of people wouldn't have been massacred.no man,he was still playing his stupid game even the night he died.


    Kevnay777 wrote:
    For the interfering thing I think you meant the off island interaction Jacob had with Sayid. Well anyways Jacob didn't really save Sayid. His only intention was to talk to Sayid so he can touch him and make him a candidate. The car accident in my opinion was pure timing, to me Jacob didn't have a thing to do with it. I really don't think Jacob is that magical.


    jacob just happened to wait precisely the right amount of time to aproach sayid?coincidence?lot of big coincidences...just sayin.jacob isn't that magical?he knew when key events whould happen in his candidates lives.all coincidence?


    Kevnay777 wrote:
    Like everyone says that he makes people candidates and somehow actually brings them to the island using his own forces. Well I don't think so. I think Jacob is just the protector and he only has three abilities..


    1. He can't age and therefore is immortal by not being able to die of old age but he can die. He also can't commit suicide (rules of protector)


    2.He can give someone his ability to not age/can't commit suicide- Richard (both abilities), candidates (Non suicide ability)


    3.He can transfer the abilities to a candidate so he/she can become the new protector


    This might anger some people but in my opinion they just happened to crash on the island.


    i really think you should do a recount.there's at least 4 for in your list of three,not to mention "the abilities"(at least another 10)


    Other theories/thoughts (just my own opinions)


    Kevnay777 wrote:
    Candidates-Jacob just simply picks who he thinks is worthy and that person is a candidate. He also picks people that seem to be "lost" with their lives.


    how would he know?he can keep track of a number of people's lifes?


    regarding the rules that was just stupidass writing.i mean i could have resolved the whole issue with one line:jacob makes a rule that allowes samuel to leave.that's it.conflict resolved.


    Kevnay777 wrote:
    Smokey's containment- Maybe Jacob just thought that if smokey ever got off the island it could turn into the smoke monster and just go on a killing rampage.


    why would he?for his rampage on the island he had motive.


    Kevnay777 wrote:
    Also smokey can take the form of dead people and therefore it can manipulate people into doing whatever it wants.


    meh,nothin new


    Kevnay777 wrote:
    Is Desmond to blame for crashing the plane?


    No it is not. Yes Desmond was in charge of pushing the button but some force outside of his own control affected him and resulted in the 815 crashing. That force is his partner betraying him because he did not know this and he was too shocked and couldn't control his emotions and killed him. Then Des panicked and finally remembered about the button but it was already too late.


    listen i really liked des to,one of my fav characters,but are you seriously trying to justify him murdering his partner for betrayel,wich meant he had to leave his post,willingly,which led to the electromagnetic field building up and causing the plane to crash.he didn't give a flying f about the button when he was going after kelvin.he probably thought it was all a scam by that time and kelvin stealing his boat proly didn't help eighter.so the crash is on des.

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  • Avatar of Kevnay777

    Kevnay777

    [24]Jun 17, 2010
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    @ ajo


    I'm not going to quote you just because it is too long. So I'm just going to list my counter argument according to order.


    1. I got the idea because of my own opinion. I mean I can ask you where you got your idea that Jacob purposely stopped Sayid to save him. I mean it sounds kind of insulting when you say "Where did you get that idea?" Anyways yes you are right about what Jacob said, if I remembered right he told Richard that in the Richard episode. However that was in the 1800s a long time ago. Who knows maybe he stopped playing that game. But this is what I thought Jacob meant by not interfering, in relation with the 815 survivors. Most of them were candidates and Jacob only brought them to the island to find his replacement. I mean we can assume that because it was proven that the one candidate was suppose to replace Jacob. We can't assume that Jacob was still playing the game because he never said or hinted that he was still playing the "original game" with the corruption during the time of the 815 survivors. He only said he was playing that game to MIB at an earlier time when they were at the beach, and to Richard during the 1800s. So maybe he just didn't interfere because he just wanted to sit back and eventually the last guy left is the replacement, kind of like survival of the fittest.


    2. Yes in my opinion it is just simply a coincidence that Jacob approached Sayid and only Nadia got killed. I mean why do you think some people die in car accidents and others don't? You can't know that. Their are just some things in life that you don't know and can't control. Lost might be just a tv show but you can relate that concept to it too. Lost does relate to life (but then again so does every show) which is why the element coincidence can happen in the show. Because of coincidence we have literary techniques like Tragedy and Irony. I also have a example of coincidence and that it can happen and it is not planned out. During 9-11 I remember watching the news and hearing about this one guy tell his story about how his baby saved him. On 9-11 he was suppose to go into the twin towers but his baby got really sick so he had to stay. Coincidentally he avoided death. Certainly his baby didn't know about this. It was a coincidence that the man avoided death. Who knows maybe Nadia still would have gotten hit by the car even w/o Jacob.


    3. I only listed three because I grouped them into three broad categories that all his other abilities could branch off if. For example if I said the ability to fly. You would assume that I mean to fly into the sky. However their are a list of abilities that can branch off of the ability to fly. Like you have to be able to levitate, manipulate gravity (because gravity is what is keeping us grounded), ability to manipulate pressure and temperature so you don't freeze to death or loose oxygen when you fly too high. See how their is a list of abilities that can be branched, but I just simply grouped them all to one general category, which is the ability to fly.


    4. Jacob has a lighthouse which allows him to see the candidate's life. In the episode "Lighthouse" Jack discovered that Jacob was looking at his childhood home. Also Jacob did leave the island frequently so he could secretly visit his candidates w/o them even knowing it. He is sort of like a semi-stalker. I do agree with you on the bad writing. The writers could have tried to explain Jacob a little better but they pretty much kept him a mystery till the very end.


    Uhh I'm just going to skip the ones about smokey leaving the island/


    Desmond


    Yes you are right, Des shouldn't be justified for killing his partner but I don't think the crash should be on him. I mean during that moment, his intention wasn't to not push the button. It was the fact that he discovered his partner was leaving him behind, killed his partner, and his emotions after killing his partner that caused him to miss pushing the button at that moment. Like I said he never had any intention to not, not push the button.

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  • Avatar of KingofIPirates

    KingofIPirates

    [25]Jun 17, 2010
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    Kevnay777 wrote:

    2. Yes in my opinion it is just simply a coincidence that Jacob approached Sayid and only Nadia got killed. I mean why do you think some people die in car accidents and others don't? You can't know that. Their are just some things in life that you don't know and can't control.
    Seems it was just more than simple coincidence as he was also there sitting on the bench waiting for Locke to be thrown through the window. Coupled that with the Nadia situation and you've got a pattern which makes it seem that he does have some type of precognitive ability.
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  • Avatar of Kevnay777

    Kevnay777

    [26]Jun 17, 2010
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    KingofIPirates wrote:
    Kevnay777 wrote:
    2. Yes in my opinion it is just simply a coincidence that Jacob approached Sayid and only Nadia got killed. I mean why do you think some people die in car accidents and others don't? You can't know that. Their are just some things in life that you don't know and can't control.
    Seems it was just more than simple coincidence as he was also there sitting on the bench waiting for Locke to be thrown through the window. Coupled that with the Nadia situation and you've got a pattern which makes it seem that he does have some type of precognitive ability.


    Yea but the point was weather or not Jacob had an ability to see in the future or not but it was if Jacob saved Sayid. My argument is basically he only stopped Sayid to touch his hand to give him candidacy and that Jacob didn't know or had no intention to attempt to save Sayid because to me the car accident was simply an accident. I mean he does have the lighthouse which allowed him to see the lives of the candidates. Who knows maybe if Jack didn't break it we would found out that Jacob could see more than just the candidates' houses and stuff.

    Edited on 06/17/2010 7:31pm
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  • Avatar of ajokurvanyad

    ajokurvanyad

    [27]Jun 18, 2010
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    Kevnay777 wrote:


    1. I got the idea because of my own opinion. I mean I can ask you where you got your idea that Jacob purposely stopped Sayid to save him. I mean it sounds kind of insulting when you say "Where did you get that idea?"


    i got the idea that jacob purposely stopped sayid because jacob purposely stopped sayid lol.what that purpose was can be anything from giving candidacy to delaying his death.my point was that there's just to many and to big coincidences.had no intention to come off insulting just wnated to know where you saw that?which part?i don't remember every detail ))


    Kevnay777 wrote:
    We can't assume that Jacob was still playing the game because he never said or hinted that he was still playing the "original game" with the corruption during the time of the 815 survivors. He only said he was playing that game to MIB at an earlier time when they were at the beach, and to Richard during the 1800s. So maybe he just didn't interfere because he just wanted to sit back and eventually the last guy left is the replacement, kind of like survival of the fittest.


    regarding the first part,he also never mentioned that their game had stopped at any moment and beside the fact that he was trying to escape,big smoke was pretty much still playing the game.


    Kevnay777 wrote:
    2. Yes in my opinion it is just simply a coincidence that Jacob approached Sayid and only Nadia got killed. I mean why do you think some people die in car accidents and others don't?You can't know that.


    yes you can,and it is very rare that a coroner can't explain why someone died in a car accident.


    Kevnay777 wrote:
    Their are just some things in life that you don't know and can't control. Lost might be just a tv show but you can relate that concept to it too. Lost does relate to life (but then again so does every show) which is why the element coincidence can happen in the show. Because of coincidence we have literary techniques like Tragedy and Irony. I also have a example of coincidence and that it can happen and it is not planned out. During 9-11 I remember watching the news and hearing about this one guy tell his story about how his baby saved him. On 9-11 he was suppose to go into the twin towers but his baby got really sick so he had to stay. Coincidentally he avoided death. Certainly his baby didn't know about this. It was a coincidence that the man avoided death. Who knows maybe Nadia still would have gotten hit by the car even w/o Jacob.


    nadia would have certainly got hit by the car eighter way.sayid was the one who got "lucky".like pirate pointed out as well,jacob also had a front row seat to locke's swan dive.just sayin to many coincidences are not in any way "as seen in real life",if that's the aspect of life they wanted to relate to.


    your 3. point should be more tharrow regarding the abillities.that's a bit overgeneralized.


    Kevnay777 wrote:
    Also Jacob did leave the island frequently so he could secretly visit his candidates w/o them even knowing it. He is sort of like a semi-stalker.


    like god



    Kevnay777 wrote:
    Yes you are right, Des shouldn't be justified for killing his partner but I don't think the crash should be on him. I mean during that moment, his intention wasn't to not push the button. It was the fact that he discovered his partner was leaving him behind, killed his partner, and his emotions after killing his partner that caused him to miss pushing the button at that moment. Like I said he never had any intention to not, not push the button.



    that's not how passing judgement works )))

    Edited on 06/18/2010 4:02am
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    Kevnay777

    [28]Jun 18, 2010
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    @ajo


    I'm not going to quote nor continue the list because this is getting way too long. I'm just going to summarize my final thoughts. First all of this is strictly opinion because the fact that the writers didn't give us enough information and answers even at the end of the show. Out of all the topics that we debated on, most of our statements and counter arguments have been just opinions except for probably the Desmond situation. See you can say that my opinions are false because we don't know if they are true but I can do the same thing with you. Like we don't know what Jacob's motive really was near the end. It could have been still the game with the corruption, but I still insist it wasn't. Simply because smokey was just trying to escape during the final season, it did not look like he still wanted to play the game to prove Jacob wrong, plus Jacob was dead making it seem like more of a possibility that he was just trying to go for his replacement. I also believe that before the final season he was just going for his replacement and not the game. I can continue to make statements on why I think that way but clearly you will still not believe it and make counter arguments, then I will do the exact same thing. In the end it will end up with a stalemate. This is just a suggestion but if you really wanted to one of us can create a debate topic on the forums and we can find like two or three other people that agree with our opinions and then have a organized debate. But for me I'm kind of done. Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "That is not how passing judgment works"? I'm only curious to know because I'm a person with my own thoughts so that is clearly how I can pass judgement my own way, just to answer my own question but I'm still curious. In fact you seem like the kind of person that just, out of the blue, tells someone they are wrong. Look back, and you will notice that in some counter arguments you just straight up tell me that I am wrong, or imply the fact that I am wrong. You really don't give nearly as much explanation or evidence to your counterarguments, but you just root off the fact that I am wrong because coincidence can't appear more than once, or Desmond was really the one to blame. Notice me, I actually make a statement, support it with an explanation, and use details and examples to back it up. You also rely on other people to sort of power you up during our debate, pirate for example was the catalyst to why I'm ending this debate. Out of all the chats I've had with him/her I can safely say that pirate is a good debater, better than me. I've only been here for about a month but it seems like no one agrees with me, I'm not complaining or pouting, I just don't know why lol. Bottom line, I'm more of a debater, you're like a person that just likes to point that people are wrong. This could be the end of this whole debate or whatever you want to call it but it depends on your next move.

    Edited on 06/18/2010 6:20am
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  • Avatar of ajokurvanyad

    ajokurvanyad

    [29]Jun 19, 2010
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    @kev

    i agree that we could go on forever with the things that we have nothing to go on from the writers,like the jacob game as you pointed out.that said you have adressed a couple of new things regarding that.now what i'm going to do is point out the parts where it doesn't quite stick and that's what i've been trying to do since i joined this forum hoping it would lead maybe to some sense,even for me cuz i couldn't come up with an explanation for all the nonsense.i base my arguments on what we were shown.now they didn't show us if the game had stopped or not so we can only go on how it manafested throughout the series and it pretty much looked the same all the time so that's why i said it was more probable that it didn't stop.big smoke acted the same after jacob died,he was still manipulating people against each other except he had a different goal now with the protector out of the way.so basicaly their game was the way they both were trying to reach their seperate goals(jacob ensuring the island would have a protector in case he lost,big smoke trying to find a way to get rid off the protector and end the stupid game).i'm more then willing to debate this one because we have the episodes where they show us these things.

    what i meant with "that's not how passing judgement works" is that your defense for him was that his intentions weren't to kill or cause the build-up of EM,but that doesn't matter.it was his responsibility,weather he wanted it or not.he was also the one that couldn't control himself and started a fight at the rocks.hotheadedness(yes this is the medical term )) isn't a defense against murder.intention doesn't matter once you've done the deed.


    i tell or imply that someone is wrong when they tend to get subjective with their theories,when the basis isn't from what we saw.but you are right about the fact that i don't explain.most of the time i don't have the patience,i assume if i question the theory they'll see the flaws for themselves.but mainly i just don't have the patience when they're really far-fetched ones.coincidences do appear in real life,to put an end to this subject,but not nearly as big ones as in lost.also coincidence in fiction is just a another way of saying "i couldn't come up with anything better".it's an easy tool to make stuff happen without having to make sense.


    i don't rely on other people to power me up,because usualy noone does lol.i couldn't really rely on that even if i wanted to.


    i don't really like in any particular way pointing out that people are wrong but since this is a lost forum and the main engine of it are theories i think this is what everyone should be doing.think about the theories and point out where they don't add up so a "better" theory can be formed.i really think this is the way to get an closer to resolving the issues we didn't get adressed in the finale.


    finaly if i come off rude or offensive in my comments i don't see why anyone would care.i mean a complete stranger to you,online,doesn't follow the rules of virtual etiquette?so what?people are way to easily offended

    Edited on 06/19/2010 3:43am
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    Kevnay777

    [30]Jun 19, 2010
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    @ajo


    I'm really glad that we can finally put some closure to this I mean I really don't want to continue this either because each time I tend to get carried away and write paragraphs lol. Tell you the truth your comments aren't really offensive, its just that sometimes people have trouble with understanding what you really want to say. They can imply that you're insulting them when you really aren't, and that is the problem with words. I guess we all just have trouble with developing and accepting each other's theories is because the writers sort of left us with nothing in the end. Anyways nice talking to you, it was fun.Laughing

    Edited on 06/19/2010 9:15am
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    ajokurvanyad

    [31]Jun 19, 2010
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    cheers.really had enough of having to start sentences with i )))

    Edited on 06/19/2010 11:13am
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