Merlin Forums

BBC (ended 2012)

Brighter Side of the Coin (Merlin discussion thread)

  • Avatar of wilfeli

    wilfeli

    [141]Jan 20, 2012
    • member since: 09/21/11
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 255

    Well, he was said to use knowledge for good and he tried to and almost succeeded in killing Morgana which isn't good IMHO. So he simply wasn't wise enough to use this knowledge of the future correctly as a warning and in doing so made it happen. If it was Tale... it might have happened very differently. That's my take on it anyway. Gaius said that Crystal cave was the source of power for Tale... in the past and that implies that if you are wise enough you can harness this knowledge.


    Morgana another question, her visions might be ones displaying events with highest probability and it might be that majority of actions taken will lead to the same result, but as in any probabilistic world it doesn't mean that everything is set in stone anything could happen just with different probabilities. And she is also young and have no experience in dealing with such premonitions.


    And even when discussing show - I'm not interested in watching over adventures of mindless and powerless pawns of destiny it's more fun for me to assume that heroes have freedom of choice and that's why I would always go with an explanation that leaves enough room for it to exist.

    Edited on 01/20/2012 5:44pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Sparklingwater

    Sparklingwater

    [142]Jan 21, 2012
    • member since: 09/29/11
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 139

    wilfeli wrote:



    And even when discussing show - I'm not interested in watching over adventures of mindless and powerless pawns of destiny it's more fun for me to assume that heroes have freedom of choice and that's why I would always go with an explanation that leaves enough room for it to exist.




    I agree for I would prefer that too. Nevertheless, I find the whole subject quite fascinating and I enjoy the discussion or conversation much more than the new style of the show, wether I'm right or wrong.


    Sorry for repeating myself but I just can't get over the fact that Arthur is the chosen one. Don't know if anyone is even interested in that but I've been thinking about it since it has been said the very first time. It's the chicken-and-egg-dilemma. And I wonder if sometime sooner someone or somewhat thought "oh well, we need a destiny for someone, let's create a boy and call him Merlin and then let's create another boy and call him Arthur who will need Merlin's help...." Or the other way around You get the picture.


    Also the Fisher King was awaiting Merlin's arrival and the gatekeeper was awaiting Arthur, Merlin and Gwaine. Would Merlin have followed Arthur on his quest if Morgana hadn't given Arthur the bracelett? It was predestined that Merlin had to go on this quest and Arthur was just the instrument to make Merlin go, like Gwaine was an instrument to help both of them. So every decison Merlin and others had made before lead to that situation which was forseen and predetermined, otherwise the Fisher King wouldn't have said that it actually was Merlin's quest and that he was the one to receive the water of Avalon. The Fisher King must have known the purpose of the water which was to call Freya later in order to get Excalibur. If I was Merlin, I would doubt my own ability to make decisions on my own.


    By the way, if Merlin's birth was predetermined as it obviously was (future written since the dawn of time-thing), EVERYONE else's birth and decisions BEFORE was predetermined too, simply because everything that happened before and at that very moment lead to Merlin's conception, if I may say it that way. I don't want to go into detail but from a biological point of view, if it had happened just a day or maybe even only a few seconds later due to something that had distracted his parents, even if they had been a couple anyway, it wouldn't have been Merlin but another child. Same goes for Arthur and everyone else, from plants to animals to humans and other creatures.


    I think it's called the butterfly-effect. Well, as I said, don't know if anyone is interested in it but I've always been fascinated by such things, wether on a tv show or in reality


    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of wilfeli

    wilfeli

    [143]Jan 21, 2012
    • member since: 09/21/11
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 255

    I've read a lot of sci-fi novels in the past and so far found no one where issues of time travel/knowledge of future were addressed in a consistent and scientifically sound way, and I do not expect from Merlin good exploration of such complicated subjects either. And trying to analyze this particular aspect of their mythology/plot just frustrates me.


    When I wanted to know what people thought about destiny/free will I went for books on philosophy, but of course there were no definite answers either. And I don't expect Merlin to add something to that corpus of work.


    Formally butterfly effect is description of a system in which paths are very sensitive to initial conditions and thus predictions are virtually impossible, because they require impossible in real life level of precision for the initial conditions.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Scop

    Scop

    [144]Jan 21, 2012
    • member since: 01/21/12
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 144

    Hi I'm new here, just jumping in...


    I've always wondered that since the dragon keeps telling Merlin that much has been written about him, and Arthur for that matter, has Merlin ever tried to find any of these writings and read them? Or the dragon could be talking about the future that much will be written. Never can tell with dragons.


    My own take on it though is that when it's said the future has been written -- outside the context of a novel or TV show -- it means that all possible futures have been written, and through our choices we bring certain possibilities forward. Most choices we make thorough our nature, and the outcome becomes more or less predictable. But there's always the chance that we make a choice outside our nature and the predicted outcome can change.


    We're dealing here with a long standing well known story with a known ending. Things don't necessary have to end up that way, just in a way that allows them to be recorded that way.


    Nemuway is dead in this telling, for instance, so how can she trap Merlin in the Crystal Cave?

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [145]Jan 21, 2012
    • member since: 02/05/07
    • level: 75
    • rank: Rowdy Roddy Piper
    • posts: 135,688
    Scop wrote:

    We're dealing here with a long standing well known story with a known ending. Things don't necessary have to end up that way, just in a way that allows them to be recorded that way.


    Nemuway is dead in this telling, for instance, so how can she trap Merlin in the Crystal Cave?

    One thing is the Arthurian legends are we know them and another thing is TPTB's take on them, which is intentionally a very different one. The discussion about Merlin's destiny being written focuses solely on TPTB's take, so Nimueh being dead and hence not being able to trap Merlin in the Crystal Cave is irrelevant in this discussion
    Edited on 01/21/2012 6:37pm
    Edited 2 total times.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of bmoshier

    bmoshier

    [146]Jan 21, 2012
    • member since: 03/01/06
    • level: 46
    • rank: Lothar of the Hill People
    • posts: 1,421

    I've NEVER liked (maybe I should say I actually dislike) how Merlin has to be in the magic closet. After watching some earlier episodes I gave up watching Merlin because watching him hide who he is just wasn't interesting or exciting to me. Instead it gives me a negative feeling for the series.


    When series / season 4 started, though, it looks like it might be time for Merlin to be able to be whom he should be in court. (OK, yeah, having him a servant is an interesting line, but . . . I could see doing it a different way from the start while acknowledging the magic they could still keep him as a servant, but it is now too late for this approach.) While I've not finished "Wicked Day," it is obvious Merlin's magic will fail because of the amulet, thus, Aurthur will continue the ban on magic.


    I'm explaining my position, because earlier I asked the question about when will Merlin come out of the magic closet. Originally, I asked it in its own thread and the reply I got was to ask here. I'm still wondering if anyone has an idea when Merlin will in this series be able to use magic openly and someday take his rightful place in the court. There could be a time period between the two events.


    Well, I've seen the end of the episode and I guess till Merlin is out of the closet this series again isn't for me. Maybe this series will never, ever allow Merlin to use his magic openly and with the King's blessing. Maybe the entire series is about Merlin BEFORE he is out and it ends when IMHO it will finally become good. If this is the case, I'll be both sorry and sad.

    Edited on 01/21/2012 6:31pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [147]Jan 21, 2012
    • member since: 02/05/07
    • level: 75
    • rank: Rowdy Roddy Piper
    • posts: 135,688
    bmoshier wrote:

    I'm still wondering if anyone has an idea when Merlin will in this series be able to use magic openly and someday take his rightful place in the court.

    All we can do is especulate, since otherwise we'd be breaking the spoilers rule

    bmoshier wrote:

    Maybe the entire series is about Merlin BEFORE he is out and it ends when IMHO it will finally become good.

    Well, according to TPTB that could perfectly be their plan. We don't know if they are teasing or if that's what they plan to stick to so I wouldn't clutch my pearls if that is the case.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Sparklingwater

    Sparklingwater

    [148]Jan 22, 2012
    • member since: 09/29/11
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 139

    bmoshier wrote:



    Well, I've seen the end of the episode and I guess till Merlin is out of the closet this series again isn't for me. Maybe this series will never, ever allow Merlin to use his magic openly and with the King's blessing. Maybe the entire series is about Merlin BEFORE he is out and it ends when IMHO it will finally become good. If this is the case, I'll be both sorry and sad.




    Hi bmoshier - I understand your wish for Merlin to have his secret revealed. Personally, I have never been interested in that except if Uther had learnt about it, because his hatred towards magic was so intense that I would have liked to see his reaction. With Arthur, things are different. don't see him hating magic and I suppose that his reaction to Merlin's powers, if he ever learns about them, will be much, much less dramatic or even surprising, simply because his attitude towards magic is not really clear. In one episode he thinks it's evil and in another he promises the druids freedom. Moreover, he is Merlin's friend and whatever his reaction will be, he will stay his friend. And Merlin won't be executed, that's pretty sure in my opinion.


    Could be that his magic will never really be revealed in this show but even if, I don't expect any fascinating or dramatic situation when it happens. Who will be there to be a real threat to him? Arthur might get mad for a while but will come to senses soon. Gwen won't cast a stone at him and neither will Gwaine or anyone else of the knights. I'm sure they will be astonished at first but then accept it. It would only be interesting to see Merlin trying to explain himself to Arthur for all the things he did or didn't do when he could, like (as mentioned before), not doing something about Agravaine, not telling Arthur about the necklace and Morgana's whereabouts or the fact that she killed Uther and not trying to heal Uther when he could but instead telling Arthur to just accept it and playing Dragoon and therefore having Arthur telling Agravaine about it, only to bring back magic to Camelot. Releasing the dragon who almost killed Arthur and Gwen, not stopping Morgana in time before she could attack Camelot and take over the throne and so on. But I suppose those things will be ignored and overlooked again.

    Edited on 01/22/2012 8:13am
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of PenguinSuzie

    PenguinSuzie

    [149]Jan 23, 2012
    • member since: 08/19/11
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 1,012
    I'd be really disappointed if the reveal (if it happens) doesn't cover or touch on Arthur's reaction. I do hope Merlin doesn't have to hide throughout the entire run of the show. It'd be quite sad.

    It's interesting that Merlin wouldn't have been conceived as he was if the purge hadn't happened. What with Balinor taking refuge in Ealdor. I don't think they'd known each other before that (Hunith & Balinor).

    It's great that Merlin is picking up the information from Gaius about being a healer and is able to actually use that. It's good that he's improving that, as well as wildly improving his previously low magical-healing skills. As let's face it, it was like his Achilles Heal of magic .
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Sparklingwater

    Sparklingwater

    [150]Jan 23, 2012
    • member since: 09/29/11
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 139

    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    It's interesting that Merlin wouldn't have been conceived as he was if the purge hadn't happened. What with Balinor taking refuge in Ealdor. I don't think they'd known each other before that (Hunith & Balinor).



    It sure is. In case Merlin was born after the great purge had started (I think he is younger than Arthur, isn't he?), then his conception was only possible because of that. Which makes the whole thing even more paradox, yet interesting, and the protagonists and antagonists even more just puppets on a string for some greater thing.



    As for the butterfly effect:


    "The butterfly effect is a common trope in fiction when presenting scenarios involving time travel and with "what if" cases where one storyline diverges at the moment of a seemingly minor event resulting in two significantly different outcomes." (Wikipedia)

    Edited on 01/23/2012 3:54pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [151]Jan 24, 2012
    • member since: 02/05/07
    • level: 75
    • rank: Rowdy Roddy Piper
    • posts: 135,688
    Digital Spy Colin Morgan picture especial here.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of PenguinSuzie

    PenguinSuzie

    [152]Jan 25, 2012
    • member since: 08/19/11
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 1,012
    I don't really think they're puppets. To me they have this destiny that has been prophesised, but it's their actions that make or break that. It's only prophesised because of their possible actions. It's the likeliest outcome but could still change significantly depending on the choices that they make. Merlin works towards something good and is actively trying to make that side of it happen. Then again the destiny is pretty positive towards Merlin, Arthur, Gwen, while Morgana and Mordred sort of get the unlucky end of the fate stick.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of bmoshier

    bmoshier

    [153]Jan 25, 2012
    • member since: 03/01/06
    • level: 46
    • rank: Lothar of the Hill People
    • posts: 1,421

    boom-moo wrote:
    bmoshier wrote:


    I'm still wondering if anyone has an idea when Merlin will in this series be able to use magic openly and someday take his rightful place in the court.


    All we can do is especulate, since otherwise we'd be breaking the spoilers rule


    Ah, is there somewhere I can find out about the spoilers, so I can (hopefully) enjoy the series. In either case, thanks!

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [154]Jan 25, 2012
    • member since: 02/05/07
    • level: 75
    • rank: Rowdy Roddy Piper
    • posts: 135,688
    bmoshier wrote:

    Ah, is there somewhere I can find out about the spoilers, so I can (hopefully) enjoy the series. In either case, thanks!

    This is the series 5 spoilers thread. It'll be open for discussion when spoilers start to be added. You can check out the series 4 spoilers thread here to get a notion of how spoiler threads are arranged and how they work. And I know it sounds like a lot of rules, but questions please over at the Q&A thread. Thanks
    Edited on 01/25/2012 11:40am
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Scop

    Scop

    [155]Feb 5, 2012
    • member since: 01/21/12
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 144

    boom-moo wrote:
    Scop wrote:


    We're dealing here with a long standing well known story with a known ending. Things don't necessary have to end up that way, just in a way that allows them to be recorded that way.


    Nemuway is dead in this telling, for instance, so how can she trap Merlin in the Crystal Cave?


    One thing is the Arthurian legends are we know them and another thing is TPTB's take on them, which is intentionally a very different one. The discussion about Merlin's destiny being written focuses solely on TPTB's take, so Nimueh being dead and hence not being able to trap Merlin in the Crystal Cave is irrelevant in this discussion


    Basically, my point. Things don't have to end up like the history books say, especially in this show. But they've been heading in the direction of explaining some of the historical stuff, but in their own way. That happens way way in the future of the legend, though and this series probably won't get to that point. Historically, Merlin has other ways of ending up that ton include Nimueh anyway.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [156]Feb 11, 2012
    • member since: 02/05/07
    • level: 75
    • rank: Rowdy Roddy Piper
    • posts: 135,688
    Colin at the the 9th Annual Irish Film and Television Awards here, here and here (pics) and here and here(vids).

    _____________

    Colin interviewed about Parked here and making of video here.

    Edited on 02/15/2012 11:51pm
    Edited 4 total times.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.