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BBC (ended 2012)

Episode 3x05 discussion - 'The Crystal Cave'

  • Avatar of ellac4

    ellac4

    [141]Oct 10, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    Despite the many inconsistencies, they apparently plan things all along.


    But are they actually inconsistencies or just misdirection? Mmmmm?

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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [142]Oct 10, 2010
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    Either way, the end product is a whole made out of many bits isn't it?
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    BUmistress

    [143]Oct 10, 2010
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    Good episode! I liked the way they slipped in a tiny bit of a Gwen and Arthur moment. Subtle, and not overly done.Morgana went against her sister's advice and tried to kill Uther. Loved how she acted impulsively. Morgana is so much more interesting now that she's defected to the dark side!

    Edited on 10/10/2010 6:26am
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [144]Oct 10, 2010
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    BUmistress wrote:
    Morgana is so much more interesting now that she's defected to the dark side!
    Indeed, and even more since she has initiative of her own.
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    Asesia

    [145]Oct 10, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    Sometimes Merlin has to do what he thinks is right.


    And damn the consequences lolol
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  • Avatar of illegalferret

    illegalferret

    [146]Oct 10, 2010
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    Merlin couldn't let Morgana die because he didn't mean to kill her and he's simply not a murderer

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    pcdsa

    [148]Oct 10, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    Despite the many inconsistencies, they apparently plan things all along.


    I don't think they planned Uther being Morgana's father until series 2. There certainly were no hints in series 1.


    dpebbleson wrote:
    I have to agree with you. Coercion is not a good thing. Merlin hasn't listened to the Dragon several times already, and always with fatal consequences.


    I so thought you would disagree with me!


    dpebbleson wrote:
    I've just read a clever line in an otherwise boring text: An artistic debate is only possible with those whom we can't completely persuade that we are right. So the more views the better! And it could be both really!



    You are a born diplomat and lovely person to boot


    boom-moo wrote:
    I know it's not the same situation but if Merlin wouldn't have forced the dragon to go in peace, he would have destroyed Camelot in 2x13 and hence Merlin's destiny wouldn't have been fulfilled. Sometimes Merlin has to do what he thinks is right.


    I agree in 2.13 Merlin had to stop evil being done i.e. the Dragon. The Dragon knew he was in the wrong and actually expressed gratitude at Merlin's clemency. But coercion here no ... though we wouldn't get all these upcoming exciting storylines.


    illegalferret wrote:


    Merlin couldn't let Morgana die because he didn't mean to kill her and he's simply not a murderer



    But he has killed many who have wanted to harm Arthur...

    Edited on 10/10/2010 10:28am
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [149]Oct 10, 2010
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    pcdsa wrote:
    I don't think they planned Uther being Morgana's father until series 2. There certainly were no hints in series 1.


    Indeed, especially with the whole Arthur/Morgana innuendo that was going on in the first couple of episodes. Now we have Arthur saying "She has been like a sister to me" which I think is reinforcing the idea of them being siblings which was brought up earlier than that.

    pcdsa wrote:

    I so thought you would disagree with me!


    Haha, no, as I said, coercion is a bad thing really. It's about the manner which is bad not the intentions.

    pcdsa wrote:

    You are a born diplomat and lovely person to boot


    I'm rendered speechless - "thank you" is not enough, but will have to do. : )

    boom-moo wrote:
    Indeed, and even more since she has initiative of her own.


    I agree. She's so interesting - they're combining her impulsiveness with her anger. I liked how Morgause looked at her suspiciously, wondering what Morgana was up to.

    ------

    I find it funny how Morgana and Merlin function. She tries to hurt him in every possible occasion but lacks the guts to do it on her own initiative. He's got to be the first to intrude.

    Also, Morgana is behaving like a very passionate person, completely blinded by her passion, anger and whatnot. I wonder if she cools down one day, and what will happen then.
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [150]Oct 10, 2010
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    pcdsa wrote:
    illegalferret wrote:
    Merlin couldn't let Morgana die because he didn't mean to kill her and he's simply not a murderer
    But he has killed many who have wanted to harm Arthur...
    But she has never planned it in cold blood.

    dpebbleson wrote:
    Also, Morgana is behaving like a very passionate person, completely blinded by her passion, anger and whatnot. I wonder if she cools down one day, and what will happen then.
    She'd be another Morgause or Nimueh, I like impulsive and passionate Morgana.
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  • Avatar of ciry89

    ciry89

    [151]Oct 10, 2010
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    Finally, God willing,I watched the ep: wow, I really liked it!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, this time I had more difficulties than usual to understand English (dunno why, maybe 'cause I'm feverish and I'm not so carefull...): for example, could youexplain to me the speech between Uther and Morgana, after she woke up??


    Morgana is so false!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I'm glad she's starting taking the initiative


    Actually, I liked also the end: it's a bit fast, butI presume they'll think to an intrusion and I think they'll explainthe broken window with a lightning, like in 2x03...


    Finally, Arthur shows a bit of perplexity for Merlin's fragile explanations!


    Ahah, Arthur and Gwen meet behind everybody's shoulders, also audience's!

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    boom-moo

    [152]Oct 10, 2010
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    ciry89 wrote:
    could youexplain to me the speech between Uther and Morgana, after she woke up??
    Sure, here you go:

    Uther: I couldn't ever let you die. I think I somehow willed you to live.
    Morgana: You've always been so good to me. I am grateful. Uther: You and Arthur. You mean everything to me, Morgana.
    Morgana: I know I could have no better guardian. Being so close to death has made me realise how important you and Arthur are to me. How close we are to each other.
    Uther: Yes.
    Morgana: You are like a father to me.
    Uther: Yes.
    Morgana: I wish the people knew that.
    Uther: They do. Morgana: Not really.
    Uther: Of course they do.
    Morgana: In the eyes of the people I am no more than your ward, a guest.
    Uther: What matters is what we feel. That's what's important, not what the people think.

    ciry89 wrote:
    I think they'll explainthe broken window with a lightning, like in 2x03
    Only that there wasn't a storm this time, was it?
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  • Avatar of leapinglucas

    leapinglucas

    [154]Oct 10, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    Why do you guys think Taliesin was so interested that Merlin would glimpse at the future? Something good must come out of this whole mess, old people are wise ones.


    Yes, I kept thinking about that last night. What if Merlin was meant to come to the Crystal Cave, meet Taliesin and get involved in the attempt on Uther just the way he did. If they map things out the way they say they do, then there is still something that happened during that ordeal that was meant to be set in motion by Merlin's actions. Merlin thinks he made a mess of it, but maybe he was just fulfilling his Destiny with a capital D.


    Is it Gwen and Arthur driven into each other's arms? Is it Merlin accepting his powers as a Dragon Lord? Is it Uther being forced to accept magic again? Is it something as inconsequential as Uther seeing Merlin as a person rather than a servant?


    No, that's not it. It has to be about Merlin, something about something Merlin learned through having foreknowledge of the future and trying to avoid it, rather than just... stumbling across Morgana in the corridor with a knife and stopping her. Maybe it's just that Merlin, who eventually becomes a great Prophet, learned a valuable lesson about the complexities of trying to interfere with future events.


    As for Morgana being more interesting after her turn to the dark side... I'm afraid I'm in the opposite camp. I feel like Morgana died in the year she was away. It's almost like she's not a person any more. She may as well be an android with the button stuck on "kill". She sort of interacts with people, but when they leave her eyes glaze over like an automaton again and she's sort of, "EX-TER-MIN-ATE.. EX-TER-MIN-ATE." I don't mind her going to the dark side, but like all good villains, I'd like to be able to see more of her perspective and her humanity. I think they did a great job of setting up the end of the second season so that the audience could sympathise with her turn. Idirsholas was an awesome episode because I felt you sympathised with both Merlin AND Morgana even though they ended up on opposite sides.


    But all that's undone now that Morgana's personality has disappeared. Just my take on it.

    Edited on 10/10/2010 2:09pm
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  • Avatar of ACDiNosey

    ACDiNosey

    [155]Oct 10, 2010
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    One of my favourite bits in the episode is just after Arthur queries what happened in the Valley of the Fallen Kings with Merlin.

    Arthur: "Alright, I don't normally say things like this, but you did a good job out there... Did you hear what I just said?... Alright, maybe I should give you some kind of reward, what do you want ?"
    Merlin: "Some peace and quiet"

    For me, this scene shows a huge change in the Arthur/Merlin relationship. Just like with the "fighting like Merlin" scene in TUP1, Arthur looks for Merlin's approval and recognition, which means a lot, given, as prince, he's supposed to get this from all his subjects, let alone his servant. Under the guise of an easy jibe about Merlin's quietness, he seems to bring out his own insecurities and what seems like his own search for true respect and admiration from somebody he actually respects (as he pointed out in Series 1 and 2, people do and say what they think he wishes rather than what they wish to do and say).
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    ciry89

    [156]Oct 10, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    ciry89 wrote:
    could youexplain to me the speech between Uther and Morgana, after she woke up??
    Sure, here you go:

    Uther: I couldn't ever let you die. I think I somehow willed you to live.
    Morgana: You've always been so good to me. I am grateful. Uther: You and Arthur. You mean everything to me, Morgana.
    Morgana: I know I could have no better guardian. Being so close to death has made me realise how important you and Arthur are to me. How close we are to each other.
    Uther: Yes.
    Morgana: You are like a father to me.
    Uther: Yes.
    Morgana: I wish the people knew that.
    Uther: They do. Morgana: Not really.
    Uther: Of course they do.
    Morgana: In the eyes of the people I am no more than your ward, a guest.
    Uther: What matters is what we feel. That's what's important, not what the people think.

    Thanks!! I understood just the initial part...:/

    boom-moo wrote:
    ciry89 wrote:
    I think they'll explainthe broken window with a lightning, like in 2x03
    Only that there wasn't a storm this time, was it?

    But...I've heard some thunders, you can see in Morgana/Gwen scene, before Morgana goes in Uther's room...have I dreamed?! Maybe I was wrong...
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  • Avatar of leapinglucas

    leapinglucas

    [157]Oct 10, 2010
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    Yes, Gwen makes a point of remarking that it looks like it's going to be a bad night. I think they were telegraphing that there was a storm to cover the breaking window.

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    boom-moo

    [158]Oct 10, 2010
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    Merlin did fulfill his destiny indeed, Taliesin makes it very clear. He insists a lot when Merlin initially refuses to glimpse at the crystals until he finally checks them out. He also knows that it isn't Arthur's time to die, so he certainly knows a lot about what's to happen. Merlin's destiny was to be there and look, then it was up to him using that for good.

    By deciding to try and alter the course of things he prompted all those things you listed, basically everything in the episode up to the very final scene: A/G getting closer, Merlin suing his Dragonlor powers, Uther being forced to accept magic, Uther revealing his secret to Gaius, Morgana learning about it, etc... From the moment he shuts those doors open and makes Morgana fall, he's unchained a set of new events. I think that was the whole purpose of the crystal looking. Because as it was proven, Morgana tried to kill Uther all the same and she'll carry on trying. It is all those things that weren't meant to necessarily happen until Merlin altered the course of things that were prompted. That's what Taliesin knew was gonna happen. And we are yet to see why they prove so important in the long run.

    Morgana bored me to death in season 2. The whole 'what's wrong with me?' then 'I am magical but I don't know what to do with it' and then 'Everyone manipulates me because I am magical and a great inside job' was a huge yawn (Except for 2x12). I wasn't thrilled about this new series 3 Morgana until she finally showed initiative, anger, went against Morgause's wishes and made decisions of her own. I hope she stays strong that way, it's so much more interesting to me than angsty Morgana.


    ciry89 wrote:
    But...I've heard some thunders, you can see in Morgana/Gwen scene, before Morgana goes in Uther's room...have I dreamed?! Maybe I was wrong...
    Yes, I stand corrected. There are thunders indeed. However I think that Gwen says that it's gonna be a bad night because they haven't found the intruder.
    Edited on 10/10/2010 2:18pm
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  • Avatar of ciry89

    ciry89

    [159]Oct 10, 2010
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    oh well, anyway there's a storm that can explain our broken window

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    zeencat

    [160]Oct 10, 2010
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    The character progression in this episode has been great. I'm really looking forward to the fall out of Morgana knowing she is Uther's daughter. The relationship progression in this episode was brilliant. Merlin and Arthur are definitely progressing. Morgana just has another reason to hate Uther. Gwen and Arthur was sweet and short. I would of liked more. Although after seeing the trailer for next weeks I'm glad they didn't milk it.
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