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Episode 3x05 discussion - 'The Crystal Cave'

  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [161]Oct 10, 2010
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    ACDiNosey wrote:
    Arthur: "Alright, I don't normally say things like this, but you did a good job out there... Did you hear what I just said?... Alright, maybe I should give you some kind of reward, what do you want ?"
    Merlin: "Some peace and quiet".


    Ok, I see how in the "fighting like Merlin" scene Arthur looks for Merlin's approval and recognition, which is indeed big since he truly wants Merlin to admire him despite he can have it for granted. But, how exactly in that bit you quoted Arthur is showing his insecurities and searching for Merlin admiration? I don't see it, care slapping me enlightened?
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    leapinglucas

    [162]Oct 10, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    I wasn't thrilled about this new series 3 Morgana until she finally showed initiative, anger, went against Morgause's wishes and made decisions of her own. I hope she stays strong that way, it's so much more interesting to me than angsty Morgana.


    I agree that angsty, directionless Morgana was overplayed, but I don't see this new Morgana as having initiative or strength. She's more like, "you hurt me, you must die." It's hard to imagine this Morgana planning anything, or understanding about actions and consequences, or appreciating destiny or prophecy or having a strategy and seeing it through. Even an amoeba will react if you place it in an electric field but I wouldn't want to watch that for 13 episodes. There was a glimpse of something when Morgana urged Uther to acknowledge her publicly, a glimpse of a plan being set in motion, but then she was back to EX-TER-MIN-ATE


    Oh well, there's still time, I guess. But thank god for Morgause, I hear myself chant.

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    zeencat

    [163]Oct 10, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    ACDiNosey wrote:
    Arthur: "Alright, I don't normally say things like this, but you did a good job out there... Did you hear what I just said?... Alright, maybe I should give you some kind of reward, what do you want ?"
    Merlin: "Some peace and quiet".


    Ok, I see how in the "fighting like Merlin" scene Arthur looks for Merlin's approval and recognition, which is indeed big since he truly wants Merlin to admire him despite he can have it for granted. But, how exactly in that bit you quoted Arthur is showing his insecurities and searching for Merlin admiration? I don't see it, care slapping me enlightened?


    I dont see it in this part either. I do think that Arthur picks up that something is up with Merlin.
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    Yaspaa

    [165]Oct 10, 2010
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    Excellent writing and acting, this episode is quality of the highest order. Emotional impact, a real sense of danger, I'm lovin' this.
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    boom-moo

    [166]Oct 10, 2010
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    leapinglucas wrote:
    I agree that angsty, directionless Morgana was overplayed, but I don't see this new Morgana as having initiative or strength. She's more like, "you hurt me, you must die."
    Yeah, she is far from thinking things through and weighing the consequences or her actions but I'd rather have an impulsive Morgana than a manipulated one.
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    camelotkitty12

    [167]Oct 10, 2010
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    Yes...I agree with all of you wholeheartedly, that Morgana WANTS to be acknowleged as more than Uther's ward. She's almost like a spoiled little girl, in that regard. But I DO remember there was one episode in Season 1, where they said Arethur was older than Morgana. Uther had said something like, "Morgana, you weren't around when Arthur was born, so....." something like that. Or he was talking to Gaius-- I just don't recall.


    Someone on another site has had to remove episode 5, (this one) due to copyright infringement. Darn it. That's the one site I really like. It's not fair.

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    zeencat

    [168]Oct 10, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    leapinglucas wrote:
    I agree that angsty, directionless Morgana was overplayed, but I don't see this new Morgana as having initiative or strength. She's more like, "you hurt me, you must die."
    Yeah, she is far from thinking things through and weighing the consequences or her actions but I'd rather have an impulsive Morgana than a manipulated one.


    An impulsive one will give us a lot more surprises.
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    boom-moo

    [169]Oct 10, 2010
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    camelotkitty12 wrote:
    Yes...I agree with all of you wholeheartedly, that Morgana WANTS to be acknowleged as more than Uther's ward. She's almost like a spoiled little girl, in that regard.
    She has every right to claim it, though. Probably she wouldn't have had any interest in getting the throne and had left it to Arthur if she would have been acknowledged from birth like the princess she is. It really must hurt being disowned in that way.

    camelotkitty12 wrote:
    But I DO remember there was one episode in Season 1, where they said Arethur was older than Morgana. Uther had said something like, "Morgana, you weren't around when Arthur was born, so....." something like that.
    But that is because Morgana was living with Gorlois and his wife, the ones she thought to be her parents. Uther only took her under his care when she was 10.
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    zeencat

    [170]Oct 10, 2010
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    Not to mention that Morgana is an illegitimate child of Uthers. Would she have the right to claim the throne if she was even acknowledged. I don't think she would even be a princess, not when you think about ancient laws etc.
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    ellac4

    [171]Oct 10, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    She has every right to claim it, though. Probably she wouldn't have had any interest in getting the throne and had left it to Arthur if she would have been acknowledged from birth like the princess she is.


    But she's not a princess. She just the illegitimate offspring of an adulterous king. So she has no rights to anything except that which Uther deigns to give her. Arthur as a legitimate male heir trumps her on every level.

    Edited on 10/10/2010 3:11pm
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    ciry89

    [172]Oct 10, 2010
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    ellac4 wrote:

    boom-moo wrote:
    She has every right to claim it, though. Probably she wouldn't have had any interest in getting the throne and had left it to Arthur if she would have been acknowledged from birth like the princess she is.


    But she's not a princess. She just the illegitimate offspring of an adulterous king. So she has no rights to anything except that which Uther deigns to give her.


    Actually, you are right: Arthur is still heir-at-law, though he's younger than Morgana...Unless she makes Uther recognizes her, and then everything changes!!
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    camelotkitty12

    [173]Oct 10, 2010
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    Yeah....As you may recall, King Henry the eighth had many illegitiamte offspring, but they had no right to England's throne, even tho the king was their bio father. Henry didn't let the ppl know abt some of them, either. So--- this is just like that instance. Morgana really has no right to the throne, but she wants to be acknowledged anyway.

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    dpebbleson

    [174]Oct 10, 2010
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    camelotkitty12 wrote:

    Yeah....As you may recall, King Henry the eighth had many illegitiamte offspring, but they had no right to England's throne, even tho the king was their bio father. Henry didn't let the ppl know abt some of them, either. So--- this is just like that instance. Morgana really has no right to the throne, but she wants to be acknowledged anyway.



    Interestingly enough, his illegitimate daughter, Elizabeth I was the one to become a queen ; ) - and not some other legitimate candidates (such as Mary Stuart)
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    boom-moo

    [175]Oct 10, 2010
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    Well, I was't getting technical with the whole 'princess' thing. Lady Vivian was the daughter or a King and she wasn't referred to as Lady Vivian and not princess Vivian, and Elena from next episode is referred to as princess Elena and his father is referred to as a Lord and not a king.

    My point is that she has every right to be acknowledged as Uther's daughter (make that a princess or a lady) instead of being someone he is ashamed of. Uther had his reasons, but it doesn't make it any less hurtful to Morgana.

    Arthur is indeed the legitimate male heir and I think that'll places him on top of succession in every way, but I don't think Morgana would aspire to any of that should Uther have acknowledged her as her daughter from birth.

    Although the fact that she is magical would still have been an issue, she wouldn't have been that resentful and willing to kill him. Maybe Gaius would have told Uther about Morgana's seer abilities... who knows? Things could have been pretty different.

    Edited on 10/10/2010 3:23pm
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    ellac4

    [176]Oct 10, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    camelotkitty12 wrote:


    Yeah....As you may recall, King Henry the eighth had many illegitiamte offspring, but they had no right to England's throne, even tho the king was their bio father. Henry didn't let the ppl know abt some of them, either. So--- this is just like that instance. Morgana really has no right to the throne, but she wants to be acknowledged anyway.


    Interestingly enough, his illegitimate daughter, Elizabeth I was the one to become a queen ; ) - and not some other legitimate candidates (such as Mary Stuart)


    But remember, at the time of her birth, Elizabeth's mother Anne Boleyn was H8's anointed queen. So Elizabeth was at least an acknowledged princess at birth. She was only declared illegitimate later when it suited dear old dad.


    Morgana has none of that going for her.

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    dpebbleson

    [177]Oct 10, 2010
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    ellac4 wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:
    camelotkitty12 wrote:


    Yeah....As you may recall, King Henry the eighth had many illegitiamte offspring, but they had no right to England's throne, even tho the king was their bio father. Henry didn't let the ppl know abt some of them, either. So--- this is just like that instance. Morgana really has no right to the throne, but she wants to be acknowledged anyway.


    Interestingly enough, his illegitimate daughter, Elizabeth I was the one to become a queen ; ) - and not some other legitimate candidates (such as Mary Stuart)


    But remember, at the time of her birth, Elizabeth's mother Anne Boleyn was H8's anointed queen. So Elizabeth was at least an acknowledged princess at birth. She was only declared illegitimate later when it suited dear old dad.


    Morgana has none of that going for her.



    Yes, indeed there you are right. And Mary Tudor did name her as her heiress.

    From this we could deduce that in order for Morgana to "compete" for the throne, she at least needs to be informally acknowledged as Uther's blood, i.e., common people, nobles etc. need to know she is his daughter, so they could support her.

    She could become queen with support but without legal right, and vice versa: but not without both.
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    ellac4

    [178]Oct 10, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    She could become queen with support but without legal right, and vice versa: but not without both.


    Agreed!

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    leapinglucas

    [179]Oct 10, 2010
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    zeencat! You have a cat! Kewl.


    zeencat wrote:
    boom-moo wrote:
    ACDiNosey wrote:
    Arthur: "Alright, I don't normally say things like this, but you did a good job out there... Did you hear what I just said?... Alright, maybe I should give you some kind of reward, what do you want ?" Merlin: "Some peace and quiet".
    Ok, I see how in the "fighting like Merlin" scene Arthur looks for Merlin's approval and recognition, which is indeed big since he truly wants Merlin to admire him despite he can have it for granted. But, how exactly in that bit you quoted Arthur is showing his insecurities and searching for Merlin admiration? I don't see it, care slapping me enlightened?
    I dont see it in this part either. I do think that Arthur picks up that something is up with Merlin.


    Yes I did see what ACDiNosey is talking about. In fact, this was a great episode for shaking Arthur up a bit and dragging the rug out from under him to see who he really is behind the regal facade.


    Arthur has little, if no experience in relating to someone as a friend. He knows how to be a Prince. He knows how to inspire fellow knights with his own military prowess. He knows how to be a dutiful son. He knows the appropriate demeanor with his subjects. But his relationships are usually based on a power balance where he is either dominant or submissive. He doesn't have any experience at the one-to-one stuff, and I think he craves that.


    In the Valley of the Fallen Kings, Merlin was clearly distant, secretive and preoccupied and Arthur wanted in. So his first solution was to insult Merlin into their usual banter (which didn't work) then assert his authority over Merlin, and Merlin completely dismissed it. Then he was trailing after Merlin trying to engage him in a conversation -- his second fallback being that Merlin loves to chatter and when Merlin chatters he is usually hopeless at keeping secrets -- at least that's what Arthur believes. But Merlin was surly and didn't want to talk. Then Arthur thought that perhaps he had treated Merlin badly and he knows how that pisses Merlin off, so he decided that acknowledging Merlin's efforts in the forest might break the deadlock, so he offered a thank you of sorts, and it STILL didn't work.


    After that, Arthur was totally lost. He'd gone through his whole Bag of Tricks in Dealing With Merlin and nothing worked. Hence the insecurity that ACDiNosey was talking about, I think. The image of Arthur hopelessly trailing after Merlin looking lost as Merlin strided out purposefully ahead of him did make Arthur looked like a kicked puppy.


    THEN Arthur fell back on the only thing he knows. As a Prince, he decided he should offer "a reward" which was laughable really, given Merlin's state of mind. But it shows that Arthur has a limited repertoire when it comes to relating to people. I think his original dagger gift for Morgana was another example of this -- buying her something HE liked in a dagger, rather than something that might appeal to a woman. But he did make amends.


    We've seen glimpses of this other Arthur, the one who tries to relate to the people he cares about. I thought the time he offered Gwen a permanent home in Camelot after the death of her father was a very thoughtful gesture, but it still sort of fell within his Princely purview. You could see it in his face that he thought it fell short of just recompense.


    The time in 2x13 where Arthur tried to get Merlin to talk during the whole Balinor episode -- he started out establishing that they were still, in fact Prince and Servant, but went on to say that if they weren't, they'd probably be friends. Which of course gave Merlin the opportunity to tell Arthur that, if they weren't, he'd tell him to mind his own damned business. But I like those scenes where you see Arthur trying to let down his barriers in his cautious, Arthur way. He wants to let go of the chains of royalty but he's not quite ready to fall into the unknown.


    Edited on 10/10/2010 3:51pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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    madison188

    [180]Oct 10, 2010
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    Has the status of Morgana's mother ever been addressed on the show, we know Golorois died, i just assumed so did her mother. Morgana has every right to feel angry but i understand slightly where Uther is coming from. He slept with his friends wife and knocked her up, how do you tell someone the child they think is theirs really isn't? Plus i mean im sure Morgana's mother was adamant on keeping the secret. Talk about family drama...

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