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BBC (ended 2012)

Episode 4x02 "The Darkest Hour Part 2" discussion thread

  • Avatar of PenguinSuzie

    PenguinSuzie

    [141]Oct 10, 2011
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    I think the Dragon knows some things. Mostly lots about prophecies made about them, he's been around a long time. He knows a bit about their future and destiny, but a lot of things aren't set in stone, which is why Merlin has to actually go out of his way to save Arthur time and again. The future can still change and characters can still die. (Though it's unlikely they'll kill off certain characters).


    I know that all Morgana will likely know (unless from dreams or something) about L/G will be from the end of 1x09.


    LizzyGlue wrote:
    That's why I keep wondering why it was necessary for M&M to tear the veil? Surely, Morgana would be able to sneak into the Castle, kill Arthur and get her revenge. Tearing the veil seems to be an extreme act of large and potentially uncontrollable scale to commit in order to bring one's « enemies to their knees » The obstacle of getting the people, knights and army to accept her as queen would be no less present, with or without the Dorocha in the world of the living.
    I think it made sense. Even if Morgana got into the castle there was always the chance the sheer amount of guards would be able to take her down (unlikely) but she could be caught of her guard. Also she could just be a bit of a drama queen (no pun intended ) and want their revenge to be spectacular. Their plans are infamously bad and impractical after all.


    LizzyGlue wrote:
    Was it her plan to show up in Camelot, promise to solve the problem of the Dorocha, sacrifice some poor lad and close the veil, then be welcome to Camelot as a saviour and queen ? Not likely, as people would still remember her "reign of terror"
    She killed innocents in 3x13 as well, I don't think she cares much if the people warm to her, if she does she's delusional and oblivious, but she is currently acting a bit mad so that wouldn't be unexpected. It's more about the nobles I think and surrounding kingdoms, I think she's want to be considered the rightful heir, even is she doesn't care to much about being accepted.


    I don't think either were immune, but she might've been taught by Morgause some magic to protect herself from them, or her home. Also I don't think they were above simply letting the masses of people fall, with them mostly hidden away or in his case, surrounded by others.


    She probably planned to sacrifice someone to close the veil if it didn't happen otherwise. Also she might've just planned to have the entire population of the place dead. She is an extremist and seems to have gone a little mad, also (IMHO) though she wasn't evil from the start, she was always selfish.

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    deeannjay

    [142]Oct 10, 2011
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    @LizzieGlue


    "In my opinion, when Morgana saw an attraction from Gwen to Lancelot in Excalibur, she had no way of guessing anything more, and to be honest, neither did we. At this point though, it was clear to us viewers that Lancelot was awe-stuck-smitten with Gwen. Morgana was not present during any of the interaction between Gwen /Lancelot/Arthur in 2x04 Lancelot and Guinevere. Therefore, I believe she never did learn about Lancelot and Gwen; it even took her some time to begin to notice hints towards Arthur's feelings for Gwen. Even then, she did not know if Gwen returned those feelings, she had to confront Gwen with it and surmise the answer from her silence and embarrassment."



    It may come down to how much, if anything, Gwen, on her return to Camelot,told Morgana about what had gone on during and just after her time as a captive of Hengist (Morgana had after all shared the first part of Gwen's adventure in that episode and would surely want to know what had happened after she and Gwen were separated). Morgana literally welcomed Gwen home with open arms and they MAY have gone off and had a woman-to-woman chat about the whole thing and how beastly a certain couple of chaps can be when they put their mind to it - or maybe they didn't!

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    legend-dreamer

    [143]Oct 10, 2011
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    LizzyGlue wrote:


    Only Arthur and Merlin ever knew about the feelings Gwen and Lancelot shared earlier on (1x09



    Is the Season 1 episode about Lancelot number 4? (Or it could be the way the season 1 Canadian dvd set was made?) I am trying to remember a Lancelot/Gwen scene in the Excalibur episode.I think Morgana has a slight idea that Gwen liked Lancelot.

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    boom-moo

    [144]Oct 10, 2011
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    legend-dreamer wrote:

    LizzyGlue wrote:


    Only Arthur and Merlin ever knew about the feelings Gwen and Lancelot shared earlier on (1x09



    Is the Season 1 episode about Lancelot number 4? (Or it could be the way the season 1 Canadian dvd set was made?) I am trying to remember a Lancelot/Gwen scene in the Excalibur episode.I think Morgana has a slight idea that Gwen liked Lancelot.

    LizzyGlue meant 1x05 "Lancelot" and not 1x09 "Excalibur" (1x04 is "The Poisoned Chalice").
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  • Avatar of PenguinSuzie

    PenguinSuzie

    [145]Oct 10, 2011
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    When 1x09 was mention as Lancelot's EP, I started using it too. Sorry about that, I'd forgotten which one it was specifically.
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    legend-dreamer

    [146]Oct 10, 2011
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    Is the Season 1 episode about Lancelot number 4? (Or it could be the way the season 1 Canadian dvd set was made?) I am trying to remember a Lancelot/Gwen scene in the Excalibur episode.I think Morgana has a slight idea that Gwen liked Lancelot.


    [/QUOTE]LizzyGlue meant 1x05 "Lancelot" and not 1x09 "Excalibur" (1x04 is "The Poisoned Chalice").[/QUOTE]


    Embarassedlol. even I got the episode number wrong. Embarassed

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    boom-moo

    [147]Oct 10, 2011
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    Fashion:

    Merlin:
    -Red shirt with blue scarf and brown jacket with brown underjacket (day 1).
    -Red shirt with blue scarf and brown jacket with brown underjacket (day 2).
    -Red shirt with blue scarf and brown jacket with brown underjacket (day 3).

    -Blue shirt with red scarf and brown jacket with brown underjacket.

    Arthur:
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with voiders (arm armour piece) and hauberk (chest armour piece) (day 1).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with voiders (arm armour piece) and hauberk (chest armour piece) and Camelot cloak.
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with voiders (arm armour piece) and hauberk (chest armour piece).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with voiders (arm armour piece) and hauberk (chest armour piece) (day 2).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail.
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with voiders (arm armour piece) and hauberk (chest armour piece) (day 3).

    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with Camelot cloak.

    Morgana:
    -Black dress with black blanket on top (day 2).
    -Black dress with black cloak.

    -Black dress.

    Gwen:
    -Blue dress with white underdress (day 1).
    -Blue dress with white underdress (day 2).
    -Blue dress with white underdress and purple cloak.
    -Blue dress with white underdress.

    -Blue dress with white underdress.

    Uther:
    -White nightgown (day 2).

    Gaius:
    -Maroon robe with brown sleeveless robe on top (day 1).
    -Maroon robe with brown sleeveless tunic on top (day 2).

    -Maroon robe with brown sleeveless tunic on top.
    -Maroon robe with brown sleeveless robe on top.
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  • Avatar of lilyflower1345

    lilyflower1345

    [148]Oct 10, 2011
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    I've been lurking for a while, but decided I should start posting. Please forgive me if I'm repeating what others have said I liked seeing how Arthur and Merlin's relationship has matured. I liked seeing Arthur worried about Merlin, we don't get to see that too often. In the scene where Merlin offers to be the sacrifice, it felt like Arthur realized what Merlin's friendship means to him. Probably thinking Merlin was dead influenced this. But I loved the trust Arthur showed Merlin in this episode. Both by asking him to look over Gwen and how Merlin was who knew there would have to be a sacrifice. It seemed like Arthur's trust in Merlin was more than it has been.It's good that they're building this up. Because whenever the reveal happens, I think it will be Arthur's trust in Merlin that will cause him to eventually be okay with it.


    It did seem that they made Gwaine out to be the comic relief. But he played that role a bit in previous episodes. In this one they just didn't give him any serious lines to balance it out. Hopefully they'll give him more serious lines in future episodes to balance out his character better.


    As far as Morgana knowing about Gwen & Lancelot, I think she could have guessed from the scene in the first season where Gwen's watch Lancelot ride away. But it seems characters in this show rarely connections like that from subtle clues. So I'm guessing she doesn't know from that. But maybeAgravaine saw her crying at the funeral and will make assumptions?

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    boom-moo

    [149]Oct 10, 2011
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    Hello lilyflower1345 and welcome

    It is absolutely ok to repeat ideas, we all have a right to express what we think of the episode no matter how alike or contrary to what somebody else has stated before.

    lilyflower1345 wrote:
    It seemed like Arthur's trust in Merlin was more than it has been.It's good that they're building this up. Because whenever the reveal happens, I think it will be Arthur's trust in Merlin that will cause him to eventually be okay with it.
    Yeah, I think that reflecting on such moments will make Arthur's scales eventually turn right when it comes to Merlin and the reveal. I expect Arthur to feel very confused at first and I guess he'll need some time to come to terms with it. I hope we keep getting nice Arthur/Merlin interactions that Arthur would be able to pile up in the right side of the scales.
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    lilyflower1345

    [150]Oct 10, 2011
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    boom-moo wrote:
    Hello lilyflower1345 and welcome It is absolutely ok to repeat ideas, we all have a right to express what we think of the episode no matter how alike or contrary to what somebody else has stated before.
    lilyflower1345 wrote:
    It seemed like Arthur's trust in Merlin was more than it has been.It's good that they're building this up. Because whenever the reveal happens, I think it will be Arthur's trust in Merlin that will cause him to eventually be okay with it.
    Yeah, I think that reflecting on such moments will make Arthur's scales eventually turn right when it comes to Merlin and the reveal. I expect Arthur to feel very confused at first and I guess he'll need some time to come to terms with it. I hope we keep getting nice Arthur/Merlin interactions that Arthur would be able to pile up in the right side of the scales.


    Thanks for the welcome boom-moo! I hope we get more Arthur/ Merlin interactions too. Arthur will definitely feel very confused at first, but the more examples he has of Merlin's loyalty and support will help. And in this episode he got reminded that Merlin is willing to die for him. I'm trying to remember the last time Arthur knew that Merlin saved his life. The last time I can remember right now is "The poisoned Chalice" which is 4 or 5 years ago for Arthur. So I think its good for him to be reminded!


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    ACDiNosey

    [151]Oct 10, 2011
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    I think my favourite conversation between Merlin and Arthur was the one where Merlin was being tied to the horse by Arthur. It really showed how much Merlin was trying to protect Arthur (and I'm sure Arthur picked up that vibe) and how much Arthur was trying to "save" Merlin and I'd like to think that wasn't just out of guilt at Merling taking his place. You can see the concern in Arthur's stance and eyes, and I thought that was probably one of the best acted scenes I've seen between those two.
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    boom-moo

    [152]Oct 10, 2011
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    lilyflower1345 wrote:
    I'm trying to remember the last time Arthur knew that Merlin saved his life. The last time I can remember right now is "The poisoned Chalice" which is 4 or 5 years ago for Arthur.
    Also in The Labyrinth of Gedref, I love that one a lot It's definitely good that Arthur gets to know about it, instead of Merlin just saving his life unnoticed. Merlin keeps reminding him that he's saved his life many times, but Arthur obviously doesn't realize how many and how true that is.
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    LizzyGlue

    [153]Oct 10, 2011
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    Thanks for the ep number, Esther

    lilyflower1345 wrote:
    As far as Morgana knowing about Gwen & Lancelot, I think she could have guessed from the scene in the first season where Gwen's watch Lancelot ride away. But it seems characters in this show rarely connections like that from subtle clues. So I'm guessing she doesn't know from that. But maybeAgravaine saw her crying at the funeral and will make assumptions?
    I like your approach because you don't speculate with scenarios about past facts that never occurred in the show .Maybe Aggravain will draw some conclusions about Gwen's deep sorrow, but to what end? Unless TPTB have a script involving the underworld - like they had with Freya's appearance in Coming of Arthur - I don't see how they can squeeze a plot out of a dead character, let alone a plot that would involve someone other than Gwen or Merlin who are closest to the deceased Lancelot.


    As you have just mentioned, characters in this show rarely make connections: in this we are in total agreement. That makes me skeptical about a further plot line involving Lancelot and Gwen's feelings for each other. Can't wait to see if he'll make an "appearance" like Freya, though

    ACDiNosey wrote:
    I think my favourite conversation between Merlin and Arthur was the one where Merlin was being tied to the horse by Arthur. It really showed how much Merlin was trying to protect Arthur (and I'm sure Arthur picked up that vibe) and how much Arthur was trying to "save" Merlin and I'd like to think that wasn't just out of guilt at Merling taking his place. You can see the concern in Arthur's stance and eyes, and I thought that was probably one of the best acted scenes I've seen between those two.
    Squee, It's my favourite too . I also liked Arthur's blood curling scream when Merlin leaped towards the Dorocha to protect him. So touching.

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    boom-moo

    [154]Oct 10, 2011
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    Alright, here we go Trish

    Arthur's attributes to becoming the great king of legend:
    -He blames himself after Merlin is attacked by the Dorocha and is decided to bring him back to Camelot and not letting him die. Despite it, he is able to listen to reason and carry on with the quest, trusting Merlin's fate to one of his knights. He is deeply hurt to see Merlin go and tells him it was all his fault and that he is sorry.
    -He can't help feeling guilty and keeps Merlin on his mind.
    -He leads his mean inside the Tunnels of Andor instead of choosing a safer spot in the middle of the group.
    -He thinks that the burden of saving his people is his and his alone, keeping his knights in the dark about his intention to sacrifice his life.
    -He follows his knight's advice and is thankful for it.
    -He is glad to have Merlin safe and sound, obviously caring for him more as a friend than as a servant. He doesn't let Merlin take his place and sacrifice his life.
    -He confronts The Cailleach bravely and tells her he is prepared to pay whatever price is necessary to save his people.
    -He pays a heartfelt tribute to Sir Lancelot, reckoning he owes him a great debt as he gave his life for all of them.
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    lilyflower1345

    [155]Oct 10, 2011
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    Boom-Moo, You're right about The Labyrinth of Gedref being another time Arthur knows Merlin is willing to die for him. I knew was forgetting one. Thanks!



    LizzyGlue, Thanks Yeah I guess I figure that Morgana's unlikely to figure it out now if she hasn't already. We have better memories than the characters do!



    I also loved the scene where Arthur's tying Merlin to the horse. You can really feel his concern for Merlin. The scene where Arthur's relieved Merlin's okay after Merlin and Lancelot meet up with them is good too. We really got a lot of worried!Arthur scenes in this one.



    I liked the part where the water spirits heal Merlin. We rarely get to see good magical creatures, seems like most of them are evil. I'd love it if we get to see more magical creatures/ people with magic helping Merlin.

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    D-syfer

    [156]Oct 10, 2011
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    Hope I'm not too late to join in. Better late then never.


    The episode is brimming with bromance, don't you think? And I love it!


    Percival saving Gwaine from the Doracha, "I didn't know you cared." Priceless.


    There's this scene where Lancelot and Merlin had a heart to heart talk about Gwen. I like the background guitar music. It has a Spanish feel to it, but also has a Celtic influence. Really nice touch.


    I just wish Arthur hugged Merlin when they found out that Merlin's still alive. They were in the edge of hugging, darn it! And all Arthur gave Merlin was a tap on the shoulder and pat on the head. That's frustrating.


    I really shouted "Noooooo!" in front of my screen when Lancelot walked into the tear and gave his life. But I believe this isn't the last we'll see of Lance. I don't think he's actually dead.


    Can we also add to the list how many times people get thrown away by using magic and left unconscious or dead? It happened so often in this episode.


    All in all, it was a great episode. Can't wait for the next.

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    boom-moo

    [157]Oct 11, 2011
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    D-syfer wrote:
    Can we also add to the list how many times people get thrown away by using magic and left unconscious or dead? It happened so often in this episode.
    Those moments get listed already in the magic & spell list I posted it before, here:

    Episode 4x02 magic and spells:
    -The Vilia heal Merlin.
    -Merlin lights a fire (using a spell).
    -Morgana blasts a Camelot guard (using her mind) -Morgana blasts two Camelot guards and Gwen (using a spell).
    -Merlin summons the Great Dragon (using his Dragonlord power/spell).
    -Merlin repels the wyverns (using a spell).
    -The Cailleach blasts Gwaine (using her mind).
    -Merlin holds Arthur back and renders him unconscious (using a spell).
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    ACDiNosey

    [158]Oct 11, 2011
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    Rewinding a bit now: do we know for sure why Morgana and Morgause wanted to open the veil, i.e., what they wanted to achieve exactly? I'm not sure I totally understood that
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    boom-moo

    [159]Oct 11, 2011
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    I guess they wanted the Dorocha to finish off Uther, Arthur and Co so Morgana could regain her place on the throne. I'm not sure why the Dorocha wouldn't attack Morgana or if she had a way to close the veil because otherwise, she would be a Queen without a people.
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    Suagger

    [160]Oct 11, 2011
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    boom-moo wrote:
    I guess they wanted the Dorocha to finish off Uther, Arthur and Co so Morgana could regain her place on the throne. I'm not sure why the Dorocha wouldn't attack Morgana or if she had a way to close the veil because otherwise, she would be a Queen without a people.


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