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BBC (ended 2012)

Episode 4x05 "His Father's Son" discussion thread

  • Avatar of Sparklingwater

    Sparklingwater

    [21]Oct 29, 2011
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    I had decided to give Merlin a chance and to watch the next episodes, seeing if there is something that reminds me of the show I'd come to love. I was disappointed again. You may think it is because Uther is gone, and I admit that it is the main reason but not the only one. There have been episodes with very little of Uther in them and I loved them anyway. It was the interaction between the characters, the atmosphere and the love within the show. Don't know what other word to choose. There was this certain charme.


    It's gone for some reason. I was worried that Merlin would become pretty much like The Tudors or something, and in my opinion it is on its way to become exactly like that. Where is the warmth between the characters, the interesting interaction, the part that carried us off into a special world for an hour?


    Again, I don't know where to start. So Arthur acts even worse than his father within the first few minutes by killing a man, a king, in cold blood. It wasn't just killing, it was an execution which was disproportionate to the crime Carleon committed. Really, I wouldn't have done that at the age of 12, no matter who had tried to talk me into this. Arthur is somewhat between 25 and 30 and he acts against his principles in a blink of an eye. All this talking about him being ready to be king was proven wrong just by that. Whilst Uther had kept peace between Camelot and Carleon's kingdom, Arthur executes the king just so. Not even Uther would have done this. As a matter of fact, we have never seen him killing a person by his own hands, right? All the executions he demanded were to follow the laws of Camelot, wether we liked it or not, wether it was right or wrong. And despite all that Arthur has learnt and all that he is, it just took a few words from Agravaine to make him become a murderer. It might be human but it's not what complies to Arthur and certainly not what I want to see in a TV show I have loved so much. Same with Gwen. Agravaine talks to him for 2 minutes and suddenly Arthur becomes as cold as ice, giving up his one and only true love. It doesn't matter if he learnt his lesson at the end of the episode, it was all just completely out of character from the beginning.


    Furhermore, all the mentions of Uther were as meaningless as anything could be. There was no grief, no sorrow, no love. Talking about Uther without any emotion was like talking about John Doe from the woods. It meant nothing, except to show at the end that Morgana is supposed to be like him although it isn't true at all. True, both were or are driven by hatred and revenge but other than Morgana, Uther knew the difference between friend and foe, even when suspecting Merlin or Gaius of sorcery (which was true with Merlin by the way) and losing track for a while. He did not want war but peace (all the time!) as long as there wasn't magic involved whereas Morgana tries to take advantage of any opportunity to fullfill her evil plans, no matter what the cost. She doesn't care about peace but only about herself. She wasn't in shock about the loss of someone like Uther was, there was no traumata she now has to deal with but only her irrational hatred. She is not like Uther, she is not like anyone, yet the audience is supposed to think that she acts like him when the differences between them are being mentioned and shown even within the one and same episode. And what about her great powers? Enchanting the sword and that was it when Merlin was capable to save Arthur even without moving his lips?


    The queen got over her loss very quickly, as it seems. I understand that she was sensible enough to avoid a war that would have cost thousands of lives, but forgiving the one who killed her husband so fast? No way! If Arthur had killed him in a battle it would have been credible but killing him in cold blood... Come on. When she said that something about Arthur would give her hope for them all, she had obviously forgotten that her kingdom and Camelot were at peace while Uther was still alive. Did she hold a grudge against him? Not that we know of, yet she had hope with Arthur who killed her husband, only because he spared the life of the warrior and avoided the war, although there had been peace between both kingdoms with Uther still alive. And it wasn't Uther who invaded their land but Carleon who invaded Camelot. So what is wrong here? Is it because Uther forbid magic in Camelot, and if so, why does it concern her since they were at peace?


    What I'm saying is, that you can't say in one moment that there was peace with Uther and the next moment you say that Uther was an a*** and obviously responsible for whatever when there wasn't anything that he was responsible for, except for a peace contract. And all that just to let Arthur shine in glory when actually it was him and Agravaine who jeopardised the peace by killing an unarmed man.


    Seems that logic and character description is being sacrificed just to prove that Arthur is so much better when atcually he seems to be very fickle for now.


    I don't like any character description anymore, not Arthur's, not Merlin's, not Gaius', not Uther's. They all have become just chameleon-like to serve the storyline, even in death in regard to Uther. The good feeling when watching Merlin is gone. It just doesn't feel right anymore.

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  • Avatar of LizzyGlue

    LizzyGlue

    [22]Oct 29, 2011
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    I've just finished watching.When this episode started, I was not expecting much, after what I've seen so far.


    Sir Leon was not featured enough to my liking but a least he had a meaningful line.


    The first scenes between Arthur and Merlin had me so discouraged about the character reset technique favoured by TPTB! Arthur was not just being rude and disloyal, he had a new excuse in now being king His behaviour toward Gwen was downright dishonourable, considering his prior promise of how things would be different for them when he became king. Amnesia has set in big time.I don't like what they are doing to Arthur's honour and conscience, some doubts would be understandable, but not behaviour so unlike him. We saw him argue with Uther when he disagreed with extreme decisions not unlike those he made in this episode.


    While the second half of this episode was predictable, it was pleasant and it a least afforded us a «somewhat» genuine apology from Arthur to Merlin and a too easy one to Gwen.Gwen was her usual sweet and noble self, no surprise there, but I found that Angel's acting is what made her scenes stand out for me as the most effective save for those with Queen Annis.


    The most agreeable part of this episode and what saved it for me was the Queen. Both the actress and the character were brilliant. Her scenes with Arthur and with Morgana, were priceless. I just loved her parting words to Morgana. What a treat. Go Queen Annis!

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  • Avatar of PenguinSuzie

    PenguinSuzie

    [23]Oct 30, 2011
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    There was a lot to like about this episode. Like everyone I loved the Queen . She was just awesome. I agree that her getting over the death of her husband so fast was to contrast against Morgana being so bitter. Taking the times this is set in, and the circumstances, Arthur killing him and her forgiving him (seeing as she wasn't devastated at the loss, not sure what their relationship was like) it makes enough sense to me. Also I think Arthur takes advice from Agravine so seriously as he places far to much trust in him, he's his only family and I think he's clinging to that for dear life. Willing to take his council and put it to use, even against those he loves most. He does seem rather gullible anyway .

    Everyone's acting was superb as always. I like that Gwen was so understanding and didn't throw a hissy fit. Though I kind of wanted her to, and to be the one that slapped him as it would have been emotional and a little bit funny.

    I do like the peace between Arthur and Annis and hope to see more of her. I actually like it that she forgave him for it and didn't seem to hold a grudge for very long.

    It's a shame we didn't get to see more of Merlin as a knight. Or the scene were Carleon was executed.

    In my opinion Morgana is much more like Uther than her own apparently rather nice father, Gorlois. They both see the big picture and damn the little people, go to extremes and have a tendency towards thinking about problems directly connected to themselves rather than people they don't know. Also they're willing to do anything, no matter how immoral, to further their goals.

    Uther didn't execute Gorlois, when Morgana was talking about it, she meant how he'd died as a direct result of fighting for Uther. She knew that it was unintentional and how much Uther cared about him so was simply lying to Annis to up how he's done her injustice I guess.

    I wish G/A had stayed unresolved for another EP or so as it didn't really do anything. Though I guess now we know Arthur won't be forsaking her at the drop of a word from 'dear old uncle'. (Just a saying. I don't actually think he's old )
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  • Avatar of Chayiana

    Chayiana

    [24]Oct 30, 2011
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    I really liked the episode. It was a beautiful character piece to show us that Arthur isn't the greatest king of all yet, that he'll still make mistakes; still unsecure of ruling the kingdom. It also showed how dangerous Agravaine really is, how easy it is for him to talk Arthur into things, both with Caerleon and Gwen. But it also showed that Arthur will learn from his mistakes in the end. I really liked how the characters interacted with each other, especially Arthur and Merlin. I could understand that Arthur looked more to his uncle for advice in these matters of state than to Merlin, especially when he thought about what his father would've done in this situation. To Arthur Agravaine is more experienced when in comes to dealing with other kingdoms, and Agravaine knew that. IMO he voiced exactly what Uther would've thought and done in this situation. Uther has been always about "We can't be seen weak in the eyes of our enemies". And because Arthur wanted to make his father proud, he followed that path. He couldn't see yet, that this was Uther's way of doing things, and his own way will be a different one. We mustn't forget that Arthur has yet to learn about his ultimate goal to reunite Albion. And basically it was well in his rights to execute Caerleon, because he trespassed on his lands and attacked villages within Camelot. It was cruel and from our perspective very wrong, but to trespass in another king's land was an act of war as Uther also stated in 1x10. These were (and still are) the laws of the lands. Caerleon knew that, he was a warrior king, and I think Agravaine was right that Caerleon wanted to test how far he could go now that Uther's dead.


    As for Queen Annis, I think she knew very well what her husband was up to, and also - deep inside - that Arthur had the right to kill him. Her grief clouded her judgement for some time as well as Morgana's words, but in the end she remembered that it wasn't all Arthur's fault, that her husband also had his part in all that. And that's why I can understand her somewhat quick turn-around in the end, she came to her senses... and this was because of Arthur's actions. I'd say, well done! I really loved the outcome. It really has been the first step to reunite Albion, albeit a small one, but like I said before, it'll take years to accomplish this goal. ^^


    Back to Arthur and Merlin... yes, Arthur dismissed Merlin's advice in the beginning, but IMO he didn't do it an unkind way, at least he tried to explain himself to Merlin. And later on he really acknowledged that Merlin has been right all along (loved the "old friend" part"!!), especially when he kinda agreed that he has indeed been a cabbage head. As for Arthur calling Merlin a simple-minded fool, it was only to protect Merlin. If he had said anything different, I think Annis would've killed him without hesitation for being Arthur's spy or something. And am I the only one who thought when Arthur reprimanded Merlin afterwards, he was just concerned about him? That he was worried about his friend being killed because of his stupid actions? I mean, following Arthur in the heart of the enemy's camp in view of the situation wasn't Merlin's smartest idea, wasn't it?


    As for the side story with Gwen... I think it was also to show the influence Agravaine has over Arthur, just on a different level. And I had no problem with the fact that she forgave him that easily. IMO Gwen never thought Arthur meant all this, for her it has been clear that Arthur had been talked into this, and she just kinda waited for him to come to his senses. It was nice to see that she stood by him even when he rejected her, and that she didn't make a fuss when he did come to his senses. I really liked the playfulness between them in that scene.


    All in all I think this was a really good episode to develop Arthur's character and the relationship he has with Merlin and Gwen, and vice versa. They both stood by Arthur's side even when he turned himself away from them and they both didn't judge or blame him for his mistakes. That's what friends are for, isn't it?

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  • Avatar of arwyn-t

    arwyn-t

    [25]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 08/10/10
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    Chayiana wrote:


    I really liked the episode. It was a beautiful character piece to show us that Arthur isn't the greatest king of all yet, that he'll still make mistakes; still unsecure of ruling the kingdom. It also showed how dangerous Agravaine really is, how easy it is for him to talk Arthur into things, both with Caerleon and Gwen. But it also showed that Arthur will learn from his mistakes in the end. I really liked how the characters interacted with each other, especially Arthur and Merlin. I could understand that Arthur looked more to his uncle for advice in these matters of state than to Merlin, especially when he thought about what his father would've done in this situation. To Arthur Agravaine is more experienced when in comes to dealing with other kingdoms, and Agravaine knew that. IMO he voiced exactly what Uther would've thought and done in this situation. Uther has been always about "We can't be seen weak in the eyes of our enemies". And because Arthur wanted to make his father proud, he followed that path. He couldn't see yet, that this was Uther's way of doing things, and his own way will be a different one. We mustn't forget that Arthur has yet to learn about his ultimate goal to reunite Albion. And basically it was well in his rights to execute Caerleon, because he trespassed on his lands and attacked villages within Camelot. It was cruel and from our perspective very wrong, but to trespass in another king's land was an act of war as Uther also stated in 1x10. These were (and still are) the laws of the lands. Caerleon knew that, he was a warrior king, and I think Agravaine was right that Caerleon wanted to test how far he could go now that Uther's dead.


    As for Queen Annis, I think she knew very well what her husband was up to, and also - deep inside - that Arthur had the right to kill him. Her grief clouded her judgement for some time as well as Morgana's words, but in the end she remembered that it wasn't all Arthur's fault, that her husband also had his part in all that. And that's why I can understand her somewhat quick turn-around in the end, she came to her senses... and this was because of Arthur's actions. I'd say, well done! I really loved the outcome. It really has been the first step to reunite Albion, albeit a small one, but like I said before, it'll take years to accomplish this goal. ^^


    Back to Arthur and Merlin... yes, Arthur dismissed Merlin's advice in the beginning, but IMO he didn't do it an unkind way, at least he tried to explain himself to Merlin. And later on he really acknowledged that Merlin has been right all along (loved the "old friend" part"!!), especially when he kinda agreed that he has indeed been a cabbage head. As for Arthur calling Merlin a simple-minded fool, it was only to protect Merlin. If he had said anything different, I think Annis would've killed him without hesitation for being Arthur's spy or something. And am I the only one who thought when Arthur reprimanded Merlin afterwards, he was just concerned about him? That he was worried about his friend being killed because of his stupid actions? I mean, following Arthur in the heart of the enemy's camp in view of the situation wasn't Merlin's smartest idea, wasn't it?


    As for the side story with Gwen... I think it was also to show the influence Agravaine has over Arthur, just on a different level. And I had no problem with the fact that she forgave him that easily. IMO Gwen never thought Arthur meant all this, for her it has been clear that Arthur had been talked into this, and she just kinda waited for him to come to his senses. It was nice to see that she stood by him even when he rejected her, and that she didn't make a fuss when he did come to his senses. I really liked the playfulness between them in that scene.


    All in all I think this was a really good episode to develop Arthur's character and the relationship he has with Merlin and Gwen, and vice versa. They both stood by Arthur's side even when he turned himself away from them and they both didn't judge or blame him for his mistakes. That's what friends are for, isn't it?




    Good review, Chayiana, and I have to say that I find myself agreeing with it.


    It's just that... I stick to my previous statement that it's the change of director that seems to have left something to be desired for me. Something in the way the episode was shot gave it no emotional depth, no lingering feeling to it. The script had a good premise and the actors were in top form, that however did not transfer that thorough on screen. With all due respect to Mr. Alex Pillai, in my humble opinion Alice Troughton or Jeremy Webb would have made this episode shine.


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  • Avatar of Sparklingwater

    Sparklingwater

    [26]Oct 30, 2011
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    I agree with you, LizzyGlue.



    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    There was a lot to like about this episode. Like everyone I loved the Queen . She was just awesome. I agree that her getting over the death of her husband so fast was to contrast against Morgana being so bitter. Taking the times this is set in, and the circumstances, Arthur killing him and her forgiving him (seeing as she wasn't devastated at the loss, not sure what their relationship was like) it makes enough sense to me.



    That's the thing, we don't know about their relationship but only got to see that she was willing to go to war because of her husband's death. One might think that maybe she was grieving and had a healthy relationship with her husband because otherwise such drastic actions would not really fit - unless we would see some more of her and would know what kind of person she is. If the audience knew her better, they would know if she was doing it out of grief or out of pride or maybe because she was just in the mood for a little war because she doesn't like Arthur or whatever. Alas, we don't know and we can only judge from what we get to see. And what we got to see was a queen who lost her husband and who wanted justice and maybe revenge. Going to war, dark ages or not, was not just a descision someone made while drinking some tea and combing their hair. War is war and it takes a lot of efforts and ressources and is always a great danger and risk to everyone. The queen had a reason and from what we saw, it was the death of her husband. And for that, it was much too quick for her to forgive the killer of her husband in such a friendly way. Withdrawal and peace to save thousands of lives is one thing, putting some kind of a halo above his head was a little implausible. It would have been absolutely logical and credible if someone else had executed Carleon and Arthur then taking responsibility. That would have been a great story. To show that he still makes mistakes and makes the wrong descisions, it would have been enough to show him sentencing a magical being, a witch or a sorcerer to death. This would also have been acceptable when comparing him to his father.


    As for comparing Morgana to Uther, there were similarities in the first 2 seasons but now there is nothing left that could compare one to another. Being bitter and seeking revenge doesn't make them equal in their actions and thoughts. Again, Uther was at peace with Carleon's kingdom. Morgana wants war, no matter the consequences. Moreover, she has no real reason for being that crazy and full of hate. She might have a reason to disagree with Arthur, although she has never really tried to make him her ally. She also might have a reason to dislike her father for what he had done to others but her total rage and hatred still doesn't make sense.



    Chayiana wrote:


    To Arthur Agravaine is more experienced when in comes to dealing with other kingdoms, and Agravaine knew that. IMO he voiced exactly what Uther would've thought and done in this situation. Uther has been always about "We can't be seen weak in the eyes of our enemies". And because Arthur wanted to make his father proud, he followed that path. He couldn't see yet, that this was Uther's way of doing things, and his own way will be a different one. We mustn't forget that Arthur has yet to learn about his ultimate goal to reunite Albion. And basically it was well in his rights to execute Caerleon, because he trespassed on his lands and attacked villages within Camelot. It was cruel and from our perspective very wrong, but to trespass in another king's land was an act of war as Uther also stated in 1x10. These were (and still are) the laws of the lands. Caerleon knew that, he was a warrior king, and I think Agravaine was right that Caerleon wanted to test how far he could go now that Uther's dead.


    As for Queen Annis, I think she knew very well what her husband was up to, and also - deep inside - that Arthur had the right to kill him. Her grief clouded her judgement for some time as well as Morgana's words, but in the end she remembered that it wasn't all Arthur's fault, that her husband also had his part in all that. And that's why I can understand her somewhat quick turn-around in the end, she came to her senses... and this was because of Arthur's actions. I'd say, well done! I really loved the outcome. It really has been the first step to reunite Albion, albeit a small one, but like I said before, it'll take years to accomplish this goal. ^^



    I see your point but from what we have learnt, Uther was always endeavoured and also successful in holding peace with the other kingdoms. Therefore I doubt that he would have executed another king even without a trial or hearing. He didn't want to interfere when Hunith's village was attacked in season 1 because it belonged to Cendred's kingdom and he didn't want to provoke a war. Also, when Oding had sent an assassin to kill Arthur, he very quickly agreed with Arthur not to react in order to avoid a war - although Odin had tried to kill his son. So Uther certainly would not have executed Carleon just for trespassing. And since Arthur had known his father for all his life, he actually shouldn't have done it either. Blaming Uther for Arthur's and also Morgana's actions is not only illogical but it has also become stupid, meaning the stories, not anyone here believing it! I wouldn't be surprised if one day the devil showed up, destroying the world and then someone saying "well, you act exactly like Uther".... Or maybe an asteroid falls down on earth and then everyone says "hey, this is Uther's fault!"


    If Arthur was in his rights to execute Carleon, then why complaining about Uther that he would have done the same (although, as stated above, I'm sure he wouldn't have done it)? It's somewhat okay when Arthur does but not if Uther had acted that way?


    As for reuniting Albion, I am not sure about the whole story here in the show. As said before, Camelot holds peace with the other kingdoms. So Arthur reuniting Albion has to do with re-establishing magic as well, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I am not quite sure but that's what I understand. If so, it wasn't necessary to show him making a mistake and jeopardising the peace between Camelot and Carleon/queen Annis in order to let him do the first step to reunite Albion - because there already had been peace, thanks to Uther and Carleon's father. What exactly am I missing here? It would make sense if Arthur had been confronted with a kingdom that didn't hold peace with Camelot. Arthur was the one who had almost broken the peace contract, not Uther. If it is about bringing back magic and therefore including all magical beings in the reunification, okay! But first breaking the peace that has already been there and then establishing it again doesn't seem to be the first step in reuniting.


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  • Avatar of Chayiana

    Chayiana

    [27]Oct 30, 2011
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    Sparklingwater wrote:
    I see your point but from what we have learnt, Uther was always endeavoured and also successful in holding peace with the other kingdoms.


    Peace, yes, maybe, but more a really fragile peace looking at the fact there has been war between Cenred's kingdom and Camelot only because Camelot has been weak because of the dragon's attack. It seemed Cenred used the first opportunity to venture into Camelot. I'd say it has been more of a truce with most of the neighboring kingdoms than actual peace (King Olaf being the exception). I can't see that there was real peace with Uther always being hesitant in asking his neighboring kingdoms for help. He never wanted to be seen as weak, he even refused to send a squad out to look for Gwen in 3x07, not only because she's a servant, but also because he needed his men to protect his kingdom. Why was there a need to protect his kingdom when he was at peace with everyone?


    Sparklingwater wrote:
    Therefore I doubt that he would have executed another king even without a trial or hearing. He didn't want to interfere when Hunith's village was attacked in season 1 because it belonged to Cendred's kingdom and he didn't want to provoke a war. Also, when Oding had sent an assassin to kill Arthur, he very quickly agreed with Arthur not to react in order to avoid a war - although Odin had tried to kill his son. So Uther certainly would not have executed Carleon just for trespassing. And since Arthur had known his father for all his life, he actually shouldn't have done it either.


    We've never seen how Uther would've reacted if another king actually trespassed his lands. It's correct that Uther didn't want to provoke war in 1x10, but what would've happened if it had been the other way around? What if Cenred sent an army into Camelot to help get rid off Uther's men attacking a village? Trespassing is - by the laws of the lands - an act of war, and it would apply to every king and kingdom. And Caerleon not only trespassed, he also (as far as I understood) also raided some villages and conquered some of Camelot's territories. I'm pretty sure Uther would've reacted in a very strong way, too, meaning he would've killed Caerleon if he had had the chance. And he would've been right in doing so... as was Arthur (basically).


    Sparklingwater wrote:
    If Arthur was in his rights to execute Carleon, then why complaining about Uther that he would have done the same (although, as stated above, I'm sure he wouldn't have done it)? It's somewhat okay when Arthur does but not if Uther had acted that way?


    I didn't complain that Uther's way would've been wrong and Arthur's was right when it was actually the same outcome. I meant killing Caerleon was Uther's way, the old way, of dealing with things like that. And although Arthur was basically right in what he was doing, doing it like Uther would've done it, his way needs to become differently if he wants to reunite Albion.


    Sparklingwater wrote:
    As for reuniting Albion, I am not sure about the whole story here in the show. As said before, Camelot holds peace with the other kingdoms. So Arthur reuniting Albion has to do with re-establishing magic as well, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I am not quite sure but that's what I understand. If so, it wasn't necessary to show him making a mistake and jeopardising the peace between Camelot and Carleon/queen Annis in order to let him do the first step to reunite Albion - because there already had been peace, thanks to Uther and Carleon's father. What exactly am I missing here? It would make sense if Arthur had been confronted with a kingdom that didn't hold peace with Camelot. Arthur was the one who had almost broken the peace contract, not Uther. If it is about bringing back magic and therefore including all magical beings in the reunification, okay! But first breaking the peace that has already been there and then establishing it again doesn't seem to be the first step in reuniting.


    For me, there're two separate parts of the prophecy: Reuniting Albion and bringing magic back. And reuniting Albion doesn't mean just simply living in peace with other kingdoms, but to become one kingdom where everyone will be living under the same banner, the same king... the king of the whole of Albion. And that would be Arthur. As for the "bringing magic back", well, I think that one should be clear...

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  • Avatar of JJuna

    JJuna

    [28]Oct 30, 2011
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    I was also disappointed by the ease with which Arthur succumbed to Agravaine's advice, against his own better judgement. The Arthur that we have come to know would never have acted in that way. In fact, if Uther had suggested such a course of action in the past, I feel strongly that Arthur would have argued against it. Was it really necessary to stain his character? He could have chosen to imprison Caerleon until he agreed to sign the treaty, and Queen Annis would still have had the motivation to declare war. It was also sad to see him isolate himself, although the reactions of both Merlin and Gwen to being spurned were exemplary.


    Of course, the plotline set up some touching scenes of redemption. It was indeed courageous of Arthur to enter the enemy camp alone and unarmed, and I also feel that it was absolutely right for Merlin to follow him. I was pleased to see that Arthur was finally prepared to admit his fault and acknowledge that Merlin had been right. I sincerely hope that their relationship moves forward from here and that TPTB do not use the reset button once again.


    Queen Annis was wonderful, and like many others, I was delighted to see Morgana being told a few home truths.


    A couple of minor points. Is Caerleon not the kingdom from which Gwaine comes? Wouldn't we have expected him to have something to say in the matter?


    While it was lovely for us to catch a brief glimpse of Merlin dressed as a knight, I would have expected a soldier to be used as the decoy.

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    zantha

    [29]Oct 30, 2011
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    [/QUOTE]


    As for comparing Morgana to Uther, there were similarities in the first 2 seasons but now there is nothing left that could compare one to another. Being bitter and seeking revenge doesn't make them equal in their actions and thoughts. Again, Uther was at peace with Carleon's kingdom. Morgana wants war, no matter the consequences. Moreover, she has no real reason for being that crazy and full of hate. She might have a reason to disagree with Arthur, although she has never really tried to make him her ally. She also might have a reason to dislike her father for what he had done to others but her total rage and hatred still doesn't make sense.



    [/QUOTE]


    sorry i have to disagree. i think it is very cleary why she is the way she is now. she always hated uthers veiw on magic and the way he went about it, he killed children. she tryed to get him to change his mind, it didn't work. when he kills her best friends innocent father, she wants him to pay. when it comes to it, she changes her mind. however you understnd why she ws going to do what she did. her magic gets stronger, she is scard doesn't know what to do. she beggs both merlin and giaus for help. they don't help her. they contiun to drug her so she may not have any dream (a plan that is not working.) or send her away. she has to come back and they leave her, don't bother to see how she is after that. giaus even told merlin he had to watch out for her from now on. does he do that no, only once. so she feels alone as the others all become closer, looking out for each other and not her. so when someone like her comes and askes for help, she helps. that is meant to be the start of herbeing evil, helping return a stone to its rightful ownwesr, real evil stuff. merlin in the same episode it is going to let a child be caught, and most likely killed. and he is menat to be the hero and her thevillain, i don't see it. someone then comes to her and asked her to help kill uther, no one else just him. she agress, knowing utherwill never change his mind. then the person she trust the most trys to kill her, rather than talk to her. no wonder she hates them, i would to. arthur and gwen just get in her way. she never set out to hurt them, she didn't even try and hurt melrin when she came back in S3, until he got in her way. it was only as her plans didn't work so they had to try something bigger, that she got frustrated and angry and more determined. i understand her hate fully. itis very clear to understnd, a makes sence.

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  • Avatar of jaqtkd

    jaqtkd

    [30]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 09/08/11
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 309

    I'm still delighted about this series and now understand what all the actors and crew meant when they instantly quoted this year as their favourite. I can't believe a show that I loved so much in series one continues to improve and develop whilst still holding on to it's strong characters and charm. The 35mm stuff continues to look stunning (as does the cast, of courseWink)


    It takes a lot to grab and keep my attention on TV nowadays; so much mediocrity around - but never do I remember a 45 mins going quite so fast as when I've been watching this year's Merlin. When we got to the final fight scene last night I looked at the clock in surprise, convinced that only 20 minutes had passed rather than 35!


    The best thing about this series so far is that lack of reset button. Although each new series has always pushed the characters forward a little, and some characters, like Arthur and Morgana, have shown some development during a series, mostly each episode stood alone and, although I never hated this, I now enjoy the fact that even apparently 'extra' episodes like 4.04, continue to move the characters and plot subtly forward.


    Yes, it hurts to see Merlin upset and struggling to find his place, it hurts to see Arthur pushing his friend and his girlfriend away in the name of his extra responsibilities, but this all adds to the dramatic beauty of this series and makes the resolutions all the more touching. Merlin's pain is especially difficult to watch (why does Colin have to do those heartbroken looks quite so well? Cry) but I love the angst all the same. Arthur calling him 'old friend' was lovely (but, wasn't he a young boy not so long ago?Laughing ) and I look forward to seeing their bond slowly develop from now on, even though part of Arthur's going to fight it all the way.


    I didn't have a problem with Arthur's character development in this episode. Carleon was the aggressor and he and Annis would have known what the consequences were if/when he was captured. Of course Uther would have either killed him or declared war on the spot, he may not have even offered him a treaty - not that he would have let it get that far - he'd have attacked when that first village was taken. Not that any of that would never have happened as Uther himself was the ultimate deterrant. His neighbours, be they allies or enemies, knew how ruthless he was and the 'peace' that Camelot has enjoyed these last twenty five years has always balanced on a knife edge of fear. The only way Uther could have 'united' Albion was through war, Arthur will do it another way (If Annis took over, I'm guessing she doesn't have any sons to take over - could that be the peaceful route for Arthur to be King there too?) All of this might seem barbaric and cruel to some here - not wishing to see their favourite characters act in a way that seems so foreign to us but, it is surprisingly, historically accurate in a show that doesn't usually worry about that sort of thing. Wink


    After so many expressed suprise at the knights interaction with Merlin last week (I still believe what we saw last week was entirely friendly boy-banter) It was lovely to see the knights ask Merlin about Arthur and act on his reply and also Arthur acknowledge Merlin's wisdom again with their usual teasing name callling simply emphasising their novel way of showing affection for each other. Wink


    Other things I loved. Queen Annis and her scenes with Morgana, Merlin dressed in a knight's outfit and being bait Tongue out, the lovely sad and romantic Arwen moments and the final confrontation between Arthur and the giant (isn't that part of Arthurian legend too - although he kills him in that one, of course!) I loved the sight of the two watching armies and the fight itself but, the best thing for me about that was Merlin and Morgana; a sorcerer on each side of the army, subtly helping/interferring.


    This wasn't my favourite episode of the series so far, that honour still goes to 4.03 but then it's almost impossible to grade these individual episodes this year, especially as there is so much more of a series arc. Then again, I've never disliked any episode of the show - I wouldn't be watching it if I did.

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  • Avatar of legend-dreamer

    legend-dreamer

    [31]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 10/02/11
    • level: 13
    • rank: Regal Beagle
    • posts: 1,468

    jaqtkd wrote:
    I didn't have a problem with Arthur's character development in this episode. Carleon was the aggressor and he and Annis would have known what the consequences were if/when he was captured. Of course Uther would have either killed him or declared war on the spot, he may not have even offered him a treaty - not that he would have let it get that far - he'd have attacked when that first village was taken. Not that any of that would never have happened as Uther himself was the ultimate deterrant. His neighbours, be they allies or enemies, knew how ruthless he was and the 'peace' that Camelot has enjoyed these last twenty five years has always balanced on a knife edge of fear. The only way Uther could have 'united' Albion was through war, Arthur will do it another way (If Annis took over, I'm guessing she doesn't have any sons to take over - could that be the peaceful route for Arthur to be King there too?) All of this might seem barbaric and cruel to some here - not wishing to see their favourite characters act in a way that seems so foreign to us but, it is surprisingly, historically accurate in a show that doesn't usually worry about that sort of thing. Wink


    Caerleon himself told Arthur "You do not choose anything boy. It is I who choose to die and I alone." So Caerleon understood that there would be some consequences from bringing his army into Camelot territory. Queen Annis was upset that Caerleon was executed rather than killed in a battle. (I am guessing he was beheaded.) Arthur was torn between being his own man and listening to Agravaine tell him he had to show what a strong King he was. Glad he was true to himself (as Gwen herself told him to be) and listened to his own good heart. It is his good heart that will allow him to have peaceful "peace" with the other kingdoms and unite Albion under one HighKing. I agree Uther did have peace but it was based on fear rather than mutual respect. Things are definitely being started for the united kingdoms of Albion. Smile


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  • Avatar of JJuna

    JJuna

    [32]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 06/17/11
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 919

    jaqtkd wrote:


    I didn't have a problem with Arthur's character development in this episode. Carleon was the aggressor and he and Annis would have known what the consequences were if/when he was captured. Of course Uther would have either killed him or declared war on the spot, he may not have even offered him a treaty - not that he would have let it get that far - he'd have attacked when that first village was taken. Not that any of that would never have happened as Uther himself was the ultimate deterrant. His neighbours, be they allies or enemies, knew how ruthless he was and the 'peace' that Camelot has enjoyed these last twenty five years has always balanced on a knife edge of fear. The only way Uther could have 'united' Albion was through war, Arthur will do it another way (If Annis took over, I'm guessing she doesn't have any sons to take over - could that be the peaceful route for Arthur to be King there too?) All of this might seem barbaric and cruel to some here - not wishing to see their favourite characters act in a way that seems so foreign to us but, it is surprisingly, historically accurate in a show that doesn't usually worry about that sort of thing. Wink


    I think you have a great point about modern sensibilities. Nevertheless, this is a sanitized version of the legend, and a true depiction of that era would not be appropriate in a family show. I do have a problem with the way Arthur was portrayed in this episode. It seems to me completely out of character. We should remember that the advice he followed was not given because it was the right thing to do, but in the hope of ensuring his destruction.


    jaqtkd wrote:


    After so many expressed suprise at the knights interaction with Merlin last week (I still believe what we saw last week was entirely friendly boy-banter) It was lovely to see the knights ask Merlin about Arthur and act on his reply and also Arthur acknowledge Merlin's wisdom again with their usual teasing name callling simply emphasising their novel way of showing affection for each other. Wink


    I was relieved to see the interaction between Merlin and the knights this week, but for me it just highlights the inconsistency of the writing and character development.



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  • Avatar of jaqtkd

    jaqtkd

    [33]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 09/08/11
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 309

    JJuna wrote:



    jaqtkd wrote:


    After so many expressed suprise at the knights interaction with Merlin last week (I still believe what we saw last week was entirely friendly boy-banter) It was lovely to see the knights ask Merlin about Arthur and act on his reply and also Arthur acknowledge Merlin's wisdom again with their usual teasing name callling simply emphasising their novel way of showing affection for each other. Wink


    I was relieved to see the interaction between Merlin and the knights this week, but for me it just highlights the inconsistency of the writing and character development.





    Whereas, for me, it highlighted the consistancy. Wink


    Or perhaps I should say that it highlighted the writer's consistency and the young men's inconsistency in their ability to show their feelings for each other. Look back on every previous Bromance episode between Merlin and every other young man (with the possible exception of Lancelot) and you'll see them insulting each other one moment and complimenting them the next. It IS what boys do - even if some girls find it strange and, as the most of the writers/producers on this show are male, they know it too.

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    AudiRox

    [34]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 11/07/06
    • level: 6
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    I think, even though Elyan and the knights have told Arthur in the past that they would basically die fighting for him, he thought the burden was solely on him. And him alone. And so he took uncle Aggy's advice because Aggy gives them so freely. Gaius' comment about Arthur having people by his side (or something to that effect), and Gwen saying she knows but she fears that Arthur doesn't, I thought was very telling of Arthur's role as new king and how much he has yet to learn. He puts his trust on his uncle, who has come to advise him - but he forgets that he has (and have had) friends around him whom he can trust to be at his side at all costs. I love how Merlin and Gwen waited silently for Arthur to come around.

    The actress playing Queen Annis is one of the strongest guest actors I've seen on this show. I'm not fond of Katie's acting, but playing along side the actress who played the Queen (what's her name?), I think, worked well for Katie. For the first time, I thought her acting was decent.

    Overall, as in many cases, certain things were solved too quickly but I thought it was a decent episode.
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    boom-moo

    [35]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 02/05/07
    • level: 75
    • rank: Rowdy Roddy Piper
    • posts: 135,676
    AudiRox wrote:
    the actress who played the Queen (what's her name?)
    Lindsay Duncan
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  • Avatar of AudiRox

    AudiRox

    [36]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 11/07/06
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 290
    Thank BB! Always coming to the rescue. I loved her in Rome. She did not disappoint as Queen Annis.
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  • Avatar of jaqtkd

    jaqtkd

    [37]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 09/08/11
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 309

    JJuna wrote:


    jaqtkd wrote:


    I didn't have a problem with Arthur's character development in this episode. Carleon was the aggressor and he and Annis would have known what the consequences were if/when he was captured. Of course Uther would have either killed him or declared war on the spot, he may not have even offered him a treaty - not that he would have let it get that far - he'd have attacked when that first village was taken. Not that any of that would never have happened as Uther himself was the ultimate deterrant. His neighbours, be they allies or enemies, knew how ruthless he was and the 'peace' that Camelot has enjoyed these last twenty five years has always balanced on a knife edge of fear. The only way Uther could have 'united' Albion was through war, Arthur will do it another way (If Annis took over, I'm guessing she doesn't have any sons to take over - could that be the peaceful route for Arthur to be King there too?) All of this might seem barbaric and cruel to some here - not wishing to see their favourite characters act in a way that seems so foreign to us but, it is surprisingly, historically accurate in a show that doesn't usually worry about that sort of thing. Wink


    I think you have a great point about modern sensibilities. Nevertheless, this is a sanitized version of the legend, and a true depiction of that era would not be appropriate in a family show. I do have a problem with the way Arthur was portrayed in this episode. It seems to me completely out of character. We should remember that the advice he followed was not given because it was the right thing to do, but in the hope of ensuring his destruction.



    Well, definitely sanitised, as we didn't and never have seen any of the violent deaths that always happen just off screen, but I still say it's perfectly in character for Arthur, he's always been easily influenced to do what his father told him in the past and, for him, still uncertain about his role, his lords and his uncle have replaced the old school vision and so he continues to accept what they say as the right thing even with Merlin, Gwen and his own conscious struggling to make themselves heard.


    Yes, we know the advice is bad - and bad for the Kingdom - perhaps even something Uther might not agree with but it sounds to Arthur like something Uther would suggest and so he follows his uncle (who he trusts) rather than the views of the servants. He does that all the time throughout the whole show - all the previous series. Uther persuades him to take/support the extreme view and then Arthur gets advice from Merlin and/or Gwen and finds a way to circumvent his father's decision and makes the right decision in the end.

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    Suagger

    [38]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 07/25/11
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 32

    I am going to continue watching Merlin, but I have to admit the continued inconsistency in writing is very near putting me off, yesterday's episode was disappointing, it feltdisjointed, the editing of the show like last week was poor...I would say I hope better for next week but I am keeping myexpectationslow

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    pcdsa

    [39]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 01/03/10
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    • rank: Evil Bert
    • posts: 1,558
    Guinevere didn't seem suprised when Arthur visited her, so I wonder how many nightly visits Arthur has been paying her I was worried when Arthur broke up with her that this was a way for Lancelot to move in sometime in the future. So I'm glad A/G was resolved and with two kisses!

    Arthur calls Merlin: simple minded fool, old friend
    Merlin calls Arthur: cabbage-head
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