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BBC (ended 2012)

Episode 4x05 "His Father's Son" discussion thread

  • Avatar of Tankim

    Tankim

    [41]Oct 30, 2011
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    Sparklingwater wrote:


    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    There was a lot to like about this episode. Like everyone I loved the Queen . She was just awesome. I agree that her getting over the death of her husband so fast was to contrast against Morgana being so bitter. Taking the times this is set in, and the circumstances, Arthur killing him and her forgiving him (seeing as she wasn't devastated at the loss, not sure what their relationship was like) it makes enough sense to me.



    That's the thing, we don't know about their relationship but only got to see that she was willing to go to war because of her husband's death. One might think that maybe she was grieving and had a healthy relationship with her husband because otherwise such drastic actions would not really fit - unless we would see some more of her and would know what kind of person she is. If the audience knew her better, they would know if she was doing it out of grief or out of pride or maybe because she was just in the mood for a little war because she doesn't like Arthur or whatever. Alas, we don't know and we can only judge from what we get to see. And what we got to see was a queen who lost her husband and who wanted justice and maybe revenge. Going to war, dark ages or not, was not just a descision someone made while drinking some tea and combing their hair. War is war and it takes a lot of efforts and ressources and is always a great danger and risk to everyone. The queen had a reason and from what we saw, it was the death of her husband. And for that, it was much too quick for her to forgive the killer of her husband in such a friendly way. Withdrawal and peace to save thousands of lives is one thing, putting some kind of a halo above his head was a little implausible. It would have been absolutely logical and credible if someone else had executed Carleon and Arthur then taking responsibility. That would have been a great story. To show that he still makes mistakes and makes the wrong descisions, it would have been enough to show him sentencing a magical being, a witch or a sorcerer to death. This would also have been acceptable when comparing him to his father.


    As for comparing Morgana to Uther, there were similarities in the first 2 seasons but now there is nothing left that could compare one to another. Being bitter and seeking revenge doesn't make them equal in their actions and thoughts. Again, Uther was at peace with Carleon's kingdom. Morgana wants war, no matter the consequences. Moreover, she has no real reason for being that crazy and full of hate. She might have a reason to disagree with Arthur, although she has never really tried to make him her ally. She also might have a reason to dislike her father for what he had done to others but her total rage and hatred still doesn't make sense.



    I agree, Sparklingwater. I really liked Annis, she had authority and charisma, also the necessary wisdom despite her descision to go to war due to her grief, but she was too quick in forgiving the executioner of her husband. One can call off a war and make a peace treaty without forgiving and most of all without glorifying the killer. That is what she did. I don't need to see people full of anger and revenge, therefore it actually was a good thing that she came to an agreement with Arthur. Yeah, I like happy endings It was just not convincing and much too simple. Arthur didn't do anything to deserve her friendship. Her respect perhaps but not her friendly attitude. I can assure you, if anyone killed my husband or any other family member or friend of mine, I wouldn't call them someone who gives me hope. Sorry, I find that just plain ridiculous. By the way, if Uther had done that, everyone would have demonised him for that instantly. I bet if it had been him, queen Annis would have tried to quarter him and lay Camelot in ashes, no matter if he went to their camp and asked for forgiveness. I can't see a logical or comprehensible reason why Arthur could go away with what he did by earning a compliment in the end.


    Hey, Arthur killed King Carleon, let's get over it, life is so good! Morgana killed her father, let's get over it, it's not so bad! A bit too simple, isn't it?



    Sparklingwater wrote:


    I wouldn't be surprised if one day the devil showed up, destroying the world and then someone saying "well, you act exactly like Uther".... Or maybe an asteroid falls down on earth and then everyone says "hey, this is Uther's fault!"



    Wait a minute... does that mean he isn't the devil? Seriously, I agree with you. I got that feeling too.




    JJuna wrote:


    jaqtkd wrote:


    I didn't have a problem with Arthur's character development in this episode. Carleon was the aggressor and he and Annis would have known what the consequences were if/when he was captured. Of course Uther would have either killed him or declared war on the spot, he may not have even offered him a treaty - not that he would have let it get that far - he'd have attacked when that first village was taken. Not that any of that would never have happened as Uther himself was the ultimate deterrant. His neighbours, be they allies or enemies, knew how ruthless he was and the 'peace' that Camelot has enjoyed these last twenty five years has always balanced on a knife edge of fear. The only way Uther could have 'united' Albion was through war, Arthur will do it another way (If Annis took over, I'm guessing she doesn't have any sons to take over - could that be the peaceful route for Arthur to be King there too?) All of this might seem barbaric and cruel to some here - not wishing to see their favourite characters act in a way that seems so foreign to us but, it is surprisingly, historically accurate in a show that doesn't usually worry about that sort of thing. Wink


    I think you have a great point about modern sensibilities. Nevertheless, this is a sanitized version of the legend, and a true depiction of that era would not be appropriate in a family show. I do have a problem with the way Arthur was portrayed in this episode. It seems to me completely out of character. We should remember that the advice he followed was not given because it was the right thing to do, but in the hope of ensuring his destruction.



    I agree, JJuna. We are not watching Camelot or King Arthur (the movie) but Merlin. Kings and queens did a lot more cruel and horrifying things back then, even Uther was a saint and cuddle bear compared to them, but this is not what Merlin used to be about. Comparing the circumstances in the dark ages or the middle age to our today's society probably would give us the willies and scare the cr*** out of us. But Merlin has never been a show that wanted to show us how terrible and horrible the dark ages were, on the contrary. Arthur DID act out of character. Although I agree that he was always easy to be influenced and often just watched what wrongs his father did (it took Gwen to open his eyes in The Witchfinder), he also often stood up against actions that he did not agree with. If he is willing to disobey his father when Uther raises the taxes (Beauty and the Beast) then he surely is able to deny executing an unarmed man kneeling before him. Excuse me, what Arthur did was not completely out of line, it was cowardly and infamous. And that is not the Arthur we know. He makes mistakes, he didn't always act right, he can be an arrogant pain in the butt but he is not a cold blooded killer, wether it was accurate for the real dark ages or not.


    Yes, he was ruthless and fickle. It was also surprising that he got over it just so. Killing someone in a battle is something different than executing an unarmed man that already was in his pocket and under his control. What's more, I wonder why none of the other knights protested. It's not very noble to kill someone in cold blood. The only one who was at his right senses in this situation was Merlin and I find it hard to believe that suddenly everyone seemed to be under hypnosis or something just because Agravaine whispered words of evil...



    jaqtkd wrote:



    I didn't have a problem with Arthur's character development in this episode. Carleon was the aggressor and he and Annis would have known what the consequences were if/when he was captured. Of course Uther would have either killed him or declared war on the spot, he may not have even offered him a treaty - not that he would have let it get that far - he'd have attacked when that first village was taken.



    And what makes you think that when, as already mentioned, Uther was always cautious not to risk a war, even when someone tried to kill his own son (by the wy, it was Arthur who said that reacting to Odin wouldn't be the right thing and then Uther agreed. So where was his wisdom now in regard to Carleon?). Uther had always been well aware of the fact that things would cause reactions, meaning that by killing a king, a war would be the result. He never wanted war. We could see it very well when the other kings arrived in Camelot for peace treaty. I'm sure Uther would not have killed Carleon but would have thought of another solution. Not out of love and kindness but out of pragmatical reasons. Let alone that due to his point of view of nobility and traditions, killing an unarmed (non-magical) man would be beneath him. Despite all the "Uther is ruthless" sayings, he wasn't a war mongerer and peace was more important to him than anything else concerning Camelot.


    jaqtkd wrote:


    Not that any of that would never have happened as Uther himself was the ultimate deterrant. His neighbours, be they allies or enemies, knew how ruthless he was and the 'peace' that Camelot has enjoyed these last twenty five years has always balanced on a knife edge of fear. The only way Uther could have 'united' Albion was through war, Arthur will do it another way



    As for keeping peace because he was feared, Uther was ruthless towards those who practiced magic but not, as far as we know, towards other kingdoms. It's not that all the kings loved each other or were super best friends ever, and of course, since Camelot obviously was the strongest kingdom, there were those who would have loved to conquer it (like Cenred, for example), but it was Uther who managed to lead Camelot into peace, who wanted to keep peace and who did not attack other kingdoms. That's why there was peace between Camelot and Carleon's kingdom and I wonder why Arthur thought he could kill a King without any consequences.



    I can't agree with queen Annis' last sentence towards Morgana. As Sparklingwater wrote, there is nothing that Uther and Morgana have in common aside from seeking revenge. Only thing is that Morgana acts like a terrorist and would kill each and everyone, even those who loved her while Uther always protected his kingdom and its people as well as his friends and family (unless magic was involved). Uther had a reason for his hatred (not saying that he was right), Morgana has no reason for her insanity and rage. She is pure evil at the moment, just bad and nothing else. I wonder why some defend her actions and say that she was right in killing her father and that it is understandable that she wants to kill her friends and family when on the other hand Uther's reasons for hating magic (the loss of Igraine) seem to be irrelevant (again, not saying that he was right). Morgana is right but Uther is bad one? That's weird.


    Actually I wonder what the title "His Father's Son" was about. Did it refer to Arthur coming to senses in the end or did it refer to him executing Carleon? After all, it wasn't "Her Father's Daughter" but "His Father's Son". And given that Carleon and Uther were at peace and that Arthur put it at risk but restored the peace again, it might have referred to the positive outcome. I would like that, would be a positive surprise and it wouldn't demonise Uther for once. Because meanwhile, I'm sick and tired of all that Uther-bahsing in the series and all that comparing crazy Morgana to him.


    All in all, this was another disappointing episode. Bad character development, rushed story and a lot of incomprehensible situations. This is not "Merlin" anymore to me.


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  • Avatar of Chayiana

    Chayiana

    [42]Oct 30, 2011
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    Just one question, because it popped up quite a few times...


    When did Annis actually forgive Arthur for executing her husband? In the end she stuck to the terms of that single combat thing, asked why Arthur had let her champion live and said something about hope for them all, but as far as I see it, she never actually forgave him. Other than that I stick to what I said before... she was well aware of the fact that Arthur basically had the right to execute her husband for what he's done, that she just needed to come to her senses, but for me that doesn't mean she forgave Arthur entirely.


    Nonetheless and because I didn't say it before, Queen Annis was a fantastic, strong character! And I really hope we'll see her again.

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    jaqtkd

    [43]Oct 30, 2011
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    I'm having a nightmare with the quotes at the moment so apologies for that ...


    To answer Tankim's question as to why I think Uther would have done much as Agravaine suggested when he just wanted peace ...


    Uther has always been describes as 'strong' or 'ruthless' both by his supporters and his critics. He himself admitted to winning his Kingdom through battle and often having to make 'difficult decisions' for the good of the Kingdom - constantly advising Arthur that he would need to do the same. These words can be interpretted in many ways but I think of them in their harshest sense just because this is a family show and they can't be any more blatent.


    Yes, he wants to keep the peace if he can, but I can't see him talking treaties with Carleon once his enemy waltzed into his Kingdom and stole his outlying villages.


    As for this show now dealing with things it wouldn't have before - don't forget we had a beheading in the very first episode. 'Merlin' has never fully shielded it's audience from the violent realities of the medieval world (perhaps a little, but not much) - they just have to ensure they don't show the actual blood and gore pre watershed!


    Yes, it is darker this series. TPTB and all the actors and crew are bragging about the fact and it's the thing that makes me enjoy it far more than previous episodes ... even though I've enjoyed each and every episode from 1.01 (some more than others, I admit)


    I'm also fascinated at how so many here seem to think it's getting worse when others think it's getting better. So interesting but then it would be a dull world indeed if we all agreed (although I still find it hard to understand why so many people watch X-Factor on a Saturday instead of 'Merlin'! Laughing)

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    dpebbleson

    [44]Oct 30, 2011
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    I'm finally here to comment. I have to say that I vastly enjoyed this episode, even though I couldn't fully appreciate it, as I spent the whole day roaming around the book fair, so when I did watch it, I was exhausted.

    But nonetheless I liked it very much, more than the previous one. (The next one looks like it's got huge potential as well.)

    I've noticed the music is new this series, I heard they hired some new composer and it shows, it's very atmospheric, and gives a different feeling.

    For one, this series stands apart from other three. I'm not talking about quality, because it's still playing, but the general atmosphere. I feel like the first three shared some specific vibe, and this one goes on and transforms it. Very subjective, I know, but I simply feel the difference and am at the loss of words to explain it.

    I've noticed the inconsistency of Queen Annis commending Arthur's valour. I think to understand it, one might have to use some thought-acrobatics. First, her husband did trespass into an enemy territory, and they did occupy some of Camelot's territories. I think she kind of expected he would die some way, just didn't think it would be execution. The execution would imply Camelot's laws are paramount. Therefore, executing a leader of a foreign land goes against the integrity of the country. Not to mention it's a cowardly thing to do. Yet, it (obviously) happens in both story and reality, at both times being gruesome.

    But then we have the whole path of 'redemption' (for the lack of better word). Arthur first goes into the enemy land, and places himself at mercy of Queen Annis, putting himself into the same position as Caerlon. Then he offers himself as the representative of his land in the combat. He shows he is willing to die for his people. That surely leaves an impression. In the end he shows mercy to the soldier fighting for the kingdom of Queen Annis, which is another way to show his quality. After all that, it's not hard to conclude about his value.

    So, yeah, it's a bit too soon for her to commend him like that, but it can be understood.

    As for the leaders making peace and going to war, being friends, then enemies, then friends, well real life is actually ahead of fantasy. One only needs to look at news archives from, say, October 2008 and October 2011, and see how leaders are "bestest of friends", then they suddenly turn to "personification of evil", and so on and so forth.

    As Hemmingway said, wars are waged by greedy politicians and businessmen, who only have to gain by it, while thousands die manipulated. It'd be somewhat naive to say Uther was hypocritical when he signed all those peace treaties with his enemies, or when he greeted them like friends. I don't think rulers of the world operate on any principles but on supreme pragmatism. Sadly.

    ---

    On a different note, I liked how Queen Annis compared Morgana to Uther. I also liked the scene between Merlin and Morgana manipulating the battlefield. Like two forces clashing, both from behind the scenes.
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  • Avatar of Chayiana

    Chayiana

    [45]Oct 30, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    In the end he shows mercy to the soldier fighting for the kingdom of Queen Annis, which is another way to show his quality.


    Not only to Annis, but also to Merlin, with whom he definitely shared a glance before thrusting the sword in the sand. After all, it was Merlin who said that Arthur always had shown mercy in battle. I think that this was Arthur's way of showing Merlin he was right. I really loved that moment!

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    MrsKnightly

    [46]Oct 30, 2011
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    [QUOTE="pcdsa"]Guinevere didn't seem suprised when Arthur visited her, so I wonder how many nightly visits Arthur has been paying her I was worried when Arthur broke up with her that this was a way for Lancelot to move in sometime in the future. So I'm glad A/G was resolved and with two kisses!



    LOL! Yes, I was wondering about the nightly visits too and the two kisses in his bedroom were not the sweet romantic ones i'm used to in Merlin....they were rather sexy & passionate. If I didn't know it was a family show I would have wondered where it was going! Lyndsey Duncan was just awesome Ps sorry to lower the tone. I'll go back to lurking

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    PenguinSuzie

    [47]Oct 30, 2011
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    jaqtkd wrote:
    Arthur calling him 'old friend' was lovely (but, wasn't he a young boy not so long ago?)
    Only to the dragon I think who is like 100/1000's of years old. Otherwise he's been a young man (rather than boy) from the start. S1 was like 6 years ago to them even if it's not so long for us, it's a rather nice comment I think though.
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    JJuna

    [48]Oct 30, 2011
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    pcdsa wrote:
    Guinevere didn't seem suprised when Arthur visited her, so I wonder how many nightly visits Arthur has been paying her I was worried when Arthur broke up with her that this was a way for Lancelot to move in sometime in the future. So I'm glad A/G was resolved and with two kisses! Arthur calls Merlin: simple minded fool, old friend Merlin calls Arthur: cabbage-head


    As a Lancelot fan, I'd love to see him come back. However, whatever temporary obstacles are placed in the path of Arthur and Gwen, the eventual outcome is assured and I don't think you need have any worries on that score

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    LizzyGlue

    [49]Oct 30, 2011
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    I don't think we need worry about this either, but I'd love to see Santiago grace Merlin's screen again

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    TylwythTeg

    [50]Oct 30, 2011
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    Entertaining mostly to watch, I'm really confused and torn on how to rate this episode. It had some good points, but I dunno... I think the whole character progression was very confusing and backtracked when compared to the previous episodes in all 4 seasons. I'm unsettled. Embarassed I didn't like the editing, it felt heavily censored. Deaths and such are usually handled well on Merlin, I felt like not even implying Caerleon's execution made it seem unlikely, and dumbed down. It surely wasn't the worst ever, and had redeeming qualities... I just don't know that it really made sense when you sit down and think it through. Season 4 is kinda odd so far, I was expecting more, and it just keeps offering somewhat strange character behavior. No offense to anyone who loved this episode (as I said, it was decent IMO) I just couldn't get past the inconsistencies in character interaction.

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    fantasyfreak77

    [51]Oct 30, 2011
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    A bit late, but here's my opinion on the epi as a whole:

    The themes here: right vs. wrong, revenge vs. forgiveness, heart vs. mind, friend vs. family.... Wow. They wrote so many morals into here that I'm impressed that it all came through and didn't become jumbled up.

    1) Queen Annis was an awesome character. I loved her line to Arthur about hope and her bashing Morgana. She was interesting, and I hope we see more of her.

    2) Those Merlin-Arthur moments (bromantic and tense alike) where amazing! I loved the little iconic, touching scene where Arthur was watching Merlin and the Knights sitting and smiling around the campfire. That was the best scene in this episode, by far. Arthur calling Merlin "old friend"! That was incredibly brilliant. Finally! Also, that look that Arthur sent Merlin after the battle with that huge, frightening man (LOL, I had to laugh at his primitive grunts, no matter how scary he was ) when answering the Queen's question about why he spared her champion was inspiring. That was a subtle sign of him thinking about Merlin's advice on compassion as strength. Perhaps I'm just reading into it too much, but that is what I saw. I simply hope that there is no reset, where Arthur is confused as to what to follow--his heart (represented through Merlin and Gwen) or his sense of "duty" (represented through Agravaine). 3) OMG Colin tripping and falling into the tent! *wipes tears from eyes* He was, again, very good in this episode. I loved him in that Camelot cloak. Very funny one-liners in there from him. 4)Bradley depicting Arthur's struggle to sort out heart vs. mind was absolutely amazing. My one major problem: I was extremely disappointed in how easily Arthur gave in to Agravaine's advice on Gwen. Don't any of his many, many promises and events from seasons 2 and 3 mean anything to him? I didn't like that inconsistency. It seemed very out of character... *shrugs* As long as it doesn't happen again *points to last paragraph under #2*, I'm happy. 5) ANGEL!! Best performance from her, by far, I believe. Sooo good!

    For now, that's all I have.
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    dpebbleson

    [52]Oct 30, 2011
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    Chayiana wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:
    In the end he shows mercy to the soldier fighting for the kingdom of Queen Annis, which is another way to show his quality.


    Not only to Annis, but also to Merlin, with whom he definitely shared a glance before thrusting the sword in the sand. After all, it was Merlin who said that Arthur always had shown mercy in battle. I think that this was Arthur's way of showing Merlin he was right. I really loved that moment!



    I didn't notice the glance, but that's proof how tired I was, not that it didn't happen, so you're right, it was twofold, so to speak.

    On another note, did anyone notice how the enemy soldiers often wear turbans? I saw them in the army of Queen Annis, but also last year in Cenred's army.
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    jaqtkd

    [53]Oct 30, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:


    On another note, did anyone notice how the enemy soldiers often wear turbans? I saw them in the army of Queen Annis, but also last year in Cenred's army.


    I believe it's TPTB's way of disguising the regularly used stunt men and local extras that are always used during filming. Laughing

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    dpebbleson

    [54]Oct 30, 2011
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    jaqtkd wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:


    On another note, did anyone notice how the enemy soldiers often wear turbans? I saw them in the army of Queen Annis, but also last year in Cenred's army.


    I believe it's TPTB's way of disguising the regularly used stunt men and local extras that are always used during filming. Laughing



    Yeah, that's a very possible and practical solution Also, notice how the army of Camelot is usually very clean and ordered, in bright colours, and how the enemy is always dressed in some murky combinations, like brown, black, grey, all of them mixed up so they look somewhat dirty.

    Narrative strategies and all

    Also, Queen Annis reminded me of some Viking woman, a strong female warrior. She also reminded me of Ned's wife in "The Game of Thrones".
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    camelotkitty12

    [55]Oct 30, 2011
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    Chayiana wrote:


    Just one question, because it popped up quite a few times...


    When did Annis actually forgive Arthur for executing her husband? In the end she stuck to the terms of that single combat thing, asked why Arthur had let her champion live and said something about hope for them all, but as far as I see it, she never actually forgave him. Other than that I stick to what I said before... she was well aware of the fact that Arthur basically had the right to execute her husband for what he's done, that she just needed to come to her senses, but for me that doesn't mean she forgave Arthur entirely.


    Nonetheless and because I didn't say it before, Queen Annis was a fantastic, strong character! And I really hope we'll see her again.




    Hey I finally found my log in info, so i'm back to post. I've been watching all the merlin eps so far, online. As for this episode---It was a very good one. Not very strong, in my opinion but good nonetheless.


    Chayiana--I wondered this too. I watched the episode twice (with subtitles on notepad since I'm deaf) and there is no scene in there where Queen Annis forgave Arthur. There's no scene where she actually learned WHY Arthur had her husband executed, either. The writers should have put that in, instead of some other scenes which were unnneccessary. AND, why was Merlin leading King Caerlon's army into a trap in the first place? that wasn't exactly explained either. we did find out later what Caerlon had done to Camelot, tho.


    And Agravaine!! Oh that evil character!!! I hope Arthur realizes soon that his uncle is playing him for a fool.


    And Cabbage head? Another new name to call Arthur? I'm very sorry, but that is getting a bit old for me. All in all, I liked this episode.


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    boom-moo

    [56]Oct 30, 2011
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    Thanks pcdsa

    What Arthur calls Merlin:
    -Simple minded fool, old friend.

    What Merlin calls Arthur:
    -Cabbage-head.

    And:

    Episode 4x05 magic and spells:
    -Morgana breaks a door in Queen Annis' castle open (using her mind).
    -Morgana enchants Arthur's sword (using a spell).
    .Morgana makes the enchantment on Arthur's sword start working (using her mind)
    -Merlin freezes Derian's sword half blow (using his mind).
    -Merlin makes Derian's sword fall from his hands (using a spell).
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    fantasymommy

    [57]Oct 30, 2011
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    I liked this episode but I was hoping for more from Gwaine. Wasn't his Father killed serving this King Carleon and then he and his mother left out on the street? I know that Arthur doesn't have these details but Merlin does and I would think there would have been some mention of this or more there...TPTB don't follow up very well.


    Gwen..what can I say! She is almost too understanding. I do think that she didn't look that surprised to see the beautiful blue cloaked prince standing at her door...I am sure it wasn't the first time he had come knocking at nightWink


    I too thought that the Queen in this ep. looked like Lady Stark form Game of Thrones..interesting enough.

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    TylwythTeg

    [58]Oct 30, 2011
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    fantasymommy wrote:


    I liked this episode but I was hoping for more from Gwaine. Wasn't his Father killed serving this King Carleon and then he and his mother left out on the street? I know that Arthur doesn't have these details but Merlin does and I would think there would have been some mention of this or more there...TPTB don't follow up very well.




    I found that odd too, and included this in my ep review.... The personality of Gwaine from season three is again greatly missed. This Gwaine doesn't even recall his father was a knight of King Caerleon and died at his hands. The writer's missed a good opportunity to make things personal for Gwaine, and just stuck him around the campfire with a random glance or line as the script called for. I really miss that likable character we were introduced to. *la sigh*

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  • Avatar of ACDiNosey

    ACDiNosey

    [59]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 02/16/09
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    TylwythTeg wrote:
    I found that odd too, and included this in my ep review.... The personality of Gwaine from season three is again greatly missed. This Gwaine doesn't even recall his father was a knight of King Caerleon and died at his hands. The writer's missed a good opportunity to make things personal for Gwaine, and just stuck him around the campfire with a random glance or line as the script called for. I really miss that likable character we were introduced to. *la sigh*


    Well, Gwaine has agreed to become a knight of Camelot and, as such, is under the command of Arthur. Whatever his feelings are, they are irrelevant in that respect. He probably didn't care that much for Caerleon's death, although I wondered whether the Caerleon that killed his father was this Caerleon's father, as it was mentioned in passing that he was a bad man...



    I'll have to rewatch to give you the Sir Leon "sire" moments, but there's at least one.

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    boom-moo

    [60]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 02/05/07
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    ACDiNosey wrote:

    I wondered whether the Caerleon that killed his father was this Caerleon's father

    Me too. This Caerleon could have been king 15 years ago but so could his father.

    ACDiNosey wrote:

    I'll have to rewatch to give you the Sir Leon "sire" moments, but there's at least one.

    I'm missing those from 4x04 too to complete the lists
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