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BBC (ended 2012)

Episode 4x09 'Lancelot Du Lac' discussion thread

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    merthurwen

    [41]Nov 26, 2011
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    [QUOTE="JJuna"]


    dpebbleson wrote:
    As Esther said, it's a nice episode, but yeah, as JJuna said, somewhat too dark and hopeless. Not that I mind, but it did avert the typical upbeat ending of almost every episode of "Merlin".


    I do mind, to be honest. Unless there is something to leaven the unremitting gloom, the whole thing will just become too depressing. When I think about it, it also really annoys me that whenever TPTB were asked about the forthcoming series, they always boasted "It's a lot darker..." as if darker was synonymous with better. Not in my book, it isn't.


    dpebbleson wrote:


    Since we all know Guinevere is gonna marry Arthur in the end, why not have her struggle a bit more for it, it is more interesting that way

    Well, I think she has done nothing to deserve being made to struggle. I'd also prefer to have seen TPTB create storylines for Gwen (and Lancelot for that matter) not involving the triangle at all.



    Here here JJuna. It saddens me to no end that Gwen who has been there for everyone on this show in their hour of need, trusted in them absent of proof should be left to dangle in the wind. What is it she should be working for? Trust honor dignity? Well I think she's earned that. I honestly didn't mind the darkness and actually like Arthur's reaction...I just think it speaks volumes that the one time they decide not to redeem a characters honor it happens to be a woman.



    Worse yet in my opinion is having Gwen humiliate herself by asking Arthur "where will I go" as if the shame of having all believe her unfaithful wasn't bad enough. But the cherry on top of this misogynistic cake was all the good old boys standing around commending Lancelot on his honor in committing suicide after the harlot apparently lead him astray.


    Beautiful brilliant episode but once again we have the mother of a Kingdom who is morally weak and an empty vessel blown about by the whims of men. The only thing that can make this worse for me is if brave dumb Arthur decides to forgive the little lady and she falls gratefully into his big strong arms.


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    PenguinSuzie

    [42]Nov 26, 2011
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    True deeannjay I'd forgotten about that. I miss Gwen & Morgana's friendship. It was endearing.
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    Tankim

    [43]Nov 26, 2011
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    JJuna wrote:


    I'm struggling to find words to express how much I loathed this episode. Too macabre and gruesome and I hated Sir Lancelot walking around like a zombie dressed in Morgana's team colours. Yes, it was well acted (isn't it always) but for me it was just too dark. Worst of all, it looks as if this time, there really will be no way back for Lancelot. I am not at all happy that this is the way he has left the series. Having established him as a totally admirable character, they have to then knock him off his pedestal. How typically British! I felt so sorry for Gwen as well. I remember at Comic Con, TPTB said that they were going to play with the A/G/L triangle and that they were confident that the audience would enjoy it. Well, in my case, how wrong they were.

    This is the second episode in this series which has left me angry and bewildered at the same time. Perhaps I'm just tired of seeing the death of major characters. Merthurwen, I sympathise with you. At the moment I'm wondering: Is Merlin worth it any more?




    I feel your pain, JJuna and I agree!

    It's still very weird to wonder about what makes Arthur the great king when he doesn't see the most obvious things and also really sends away his one and only love. Is he better because he didn't kill Gwen? How gracious not to kill the woman he loves but instead banishing her and warning her not to return because she would have to face execution if she did. I'm sorry but I still can't find any nobility or outstanding leadership in Arthur, the legend and the greatest king of all. Uther broke his own rules to save the ones he loved, so I doubt he would have killed his fiance for the betrayal with a kiss. And Arthur banishes her by threatening to kill her if she returns?

    And when for heaven's sake will he finally learn that everything his uncle tells him is wrong? Didn't he get suspicious that Lancelot returned just in time when Arthur is about to marry Gwen and that Agravaine, who has always been against the relationship with Gwen, shows Arthur Gwen and Lancelot kissing? When actually, since Gaius has been proved innocent, only Agravaine is left to be the real traitor? Even a child would have figured it out long time ago, why doesn't Arthur when logic points only into one direction? It is simple maths, yet he refuses to doubt his uncle, no matter what happens.

    Lancelot. He died the second time. Will the producers ever get enough of killing off characters or will they continue? Lancelot didn't only die twice, he also got a funeral twice when on the other hand Uther didn't even get just one (meaning we didn't see one). That is ridiculous. Not the funeral(s) for Lancelot, the supporting character but the fact that Uther, the main character did not get one. Oh, and I wonder, since a character died (again!), that this time there weren't any humorous situations likes piggyback rides or something.... weird. Wasn't the death funny enough?

    I'm sorry for being sarcastic here but this show is annoying me too much. I had hoped for a positive change but instead it's getting worse.

    It is such a bad descision to kill Lancelot off. I don't understand it all. Two characters are gone while the remaining characters behave more strange with each new epsiode.
    So far they have managed to disappoint three fanbases by parting with Morgause, Lancelot and Uther. I had hoped that at least Lancelot would return, even if not appearing in every episode but still being around now and then. What is so good about that all?

    What can I say about Gaius always talking Merlin out of his idea to finally tell Arthur the truth about Morgana? It doesn't make any sense. If Arthur knew that Lancelot was a just a shade, brought back by Morgana's magic, Lancelot would not only be remembered the way he deserved, meaning for being noble and loyal and not betraying Arthur but Arthur might also get the idea that Gwen probably was enchanted. It was magic, after all. Lancelot was magic. By staying silent about what is really going on, Gaius and Merlin are making things worse. Why does Gaius behave that way, it is illogical and incomprehensible.

    So what about Morgana... I'm sorry but by killing Uther she has eliminated the only one who really stood in the way of Arthur making Gwen his queen. She has brought it all upon herself and I wonder why because she had the vision of Gwen on the throne while Uther was still alive. If she had thought about it all earlier, she would have taken care of Gwen once and for all instead of later being shocked about the news and bringing back shades from the dead and making weird and complicated plans. Morgana's success is only temporarily, so it would have been more plausible if she hadn't had a vision of Gwen being queen before she killed Uther but after it.

    I wonder if Lancelot will be even mentioned in the upcoming episodes. But then, mentioning dead characters doesn't mean anything on Merlin since they are not remembered fondly or with any emotion at all.

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    boom-moo

    [45]Nov 26, 2011
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    I'm confused why enchanted Gwen threw the bracelet off
    I guess it'll play a part eventually for the truth to be discovered.
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    PenguinSuzie

    [46]Nov 26, 2011
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    @merthurwen I don't think Lancelot is respected for killing himself, he's not going to be thought of overly fondly at all.

    Weird and complicated plans are her things. Same with Morgause... and Voldemort. The plans inevitably fail.
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    boom-moo

    [47]Nov 26, 2011
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    @merthurwen I don't think Lancelot is respected for killing himself, he's not going to be thought of overly fondly at all.
    He seemed to have found some redemption in the eyes of Arthur because of it which annoys me to no end. I think that Gwen was way braver and yet she got the worst part.
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    JJuna

    [49]Nov 26, 2011
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:


    I expected Merlin to go up to her when she was leaving.Why on earth did no one suspect that she was enchanted or even coerced or something as well.


    In my opinion, simply because it didn't fit in with the plotline. Inconsistencies of this nature are now so abundant, that I hardly notice them anymore.



    merthurwen wrote:


    Here here JJuna. It saddens me to no end that Gwen who has been there for everyone on this show in their hour of need, trusted in them absent of proof should be left to dangle in the wind. What is it she should be working for? Trust honor dignity? Well I think she's earned that. I honestly didn't mind the darkness and actually like Arthur's reaction...I just think it speaks volumes that the one time they decide not to redeem a characters honor it happens to be a woman.


    Worse yet in my opinion is having Gwen humiliate herself by asking Arthur "where will I go" as if the shame of having all believe her unfaithful wasn't bad enough. But the cherry on top of this misogynistic cake was all the good old boys standing around commending Lancelot on his honor in committing suicide after the harlot apparently lead him astray.


    The double standard has been around forever, and what we saw was probably an accurate reflection of those misogynistic times. In addition, suicide was often considered an honourable exit. However, Lancelot's reputation has also been tarnished, both in Camelot, and with a far more important group: the modern audience. I am so disappointed that this is the way he has gone. I think if you wait for a little while, you will find the character of Gwen redeemed We know that Gwen will be Queen, so I am certain that the misunderstanding will be clarified (although I don't know how ).


    Tankim, thank you for your support Your post is long, so I won't repeat it all here, but I agree with every word




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    PenguinSuzie

    [52]Nov 26, 2011
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    @boom-mooI don't think it's a case of bravery with Lancelot as he wasn't himself. I do think Arthur was sad to see him dead and in such a way as well. And that he knew Lancelot was sorry. But I don't think he forgave him. Or respected him now either.

    Gwen has friends she can stay with at least, so she won't be alone. She faced him and told the truth and that was brave. Though I'm not sure what else Arthur could do, he wasn't ready to forgive her, could never trust her so the wedding was off, and so couldn't bare to look at her. I don't know why he couldn't just have demanded she stay out of certain areas or something rather than banishing her from her home. At the end he still loved her, he knew he'd forgive her at some point. Though it bothers me that she had no say in the matter and seemed very meek, I just think it's because of the situation, she was horrified and upset and he was the same but also really angry. He's the king and used to getting his way so I'm not shocked at him demanding anything from her. Even if it is unfair. Also at least he didn't listen to his uncle there and sentence her like I'm sure he did Lancelot.
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    deeannjay

    [54]Nov 26, 2011
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    Tankim wrote:




    It is such a bad descision to kill Lancelot off. I don't understand it all. Two characters are gone while the remaining characters behave more strange with each new epsiode.
    So far they have managed to disappoint three fanbases by parting with Morgause, Lancelot and Uther. I had hoped that at least Lancelot would return, even if not appearing in every episode but still being around now and then. What is so good about that all?


    I wonder if Lancelot will be even mentioned in the upcoming episodes. But then, mentioning dead characters doesn't mean anything on Merlin since they are not remembered fondly or with any emotion at all.




    All so very true! And I really wouldn't put it past them NOT to mention Lancelot again in upcoming episodes. In fact it cheesed me off no end tonight to hear Merlin banging on about how he really, really regretted not being able to prevent Lancelot's death and how he has missed him so much and how he had so, so wanted him back. Oh, right, that'll be why he was bouncing about cheerfully in the episode following Lancelot stepping into the veil and why he hasn't bothered to mention his best-friend-who-knew-his-big-secret ONCE during the past half-dozen episodes.

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    boom-moo

    [55]Nov 26, 2011
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    Sue, do you mind removing the last part of your post? The fact that a spoiler hasn't been seen yet doesn't mean that it won't be, even if it doesn't seem to fit any longer. Thanks

    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    @boom-mooI don't think it's a case of bravery with Lancelot as he wasn't himself.
    I don't think that taking his own life was brave at all, but Arthur seemed to find it honourable. He says that Lancelot was a man of honour in all ways but one, so the way that he chose (for all that Arthur knows it was Lancelot's own decision) to get out of the picture appears to be a redeemable feature.
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    JJuna

    [56]Nov 26, 2011
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    deeannjay wrote:


    Tankim wrote:




    It is such a bad descision to kill Lancelot off. I don't understand it all. Two characters are gone while the remaining characters behave more strange with each new epsiode.
    So far they have managed to disappoint three fanbases by parting with Morgause, Lancelot and Uther. I had hoped that at least Lancelot would return, even if not appearing in every episode but still being around now and then. What is so good about that all?


    I wonder if Lancelot will be even mentioned in the upcoming episodes. But then, mentioning dead characters doesn't mean anything on Merlin since they are not remembered fondly or with any emotion at all.




    All so very true! And I really wouldn't put it past them NOT to mention Lancelot again in upcoming episodes. In fact it cheesed me off no end tonight to hear Merlin banging on about how he really, really regretted not being able to prevent Lancelot's death and how he has missed him so much and how he had so, so wanted him back. Oh, right, that'll be why he was bouncing about cheerfully in the episode following Lancelot stepping into the veil and why he hasn't bothered to mention his best-friend-who-knew-his-big-secret ONCE during the past half-dozen episodes.



    Agreed. However, in order to reestablish Gwen's reputation, it's difficult to see how they can avoid some reference to Lancelot this time. We'll see. In any case, even if they mention him in passing, it won't make me feel any better. I had hoped this series, he would play a full part as a knight of Camelot. Those hopes have been dashed unfortunately, both for this series and next

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  • Avatar of merthurwen

    merthurwen

    [57]Nov 26, 2011
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    JJuna wrote:



    PenguinSuzie wrote:


    I expected Merlin to go up to her when she was leaving.Why on earth did no one suspect that she was enchanted or even coerced or something as well.


    In my opinion, simply because it didn't fit in with the plotline. Inconsistencies of this nature are now so abundant, that I hardly notice them anymore.



    merthurwen wrote:


    Here here JJuna. It saddens me to no end that Gwen who has been there for everyone on this show in their hour of need, trusted in them absent of proof should be left to dangle in the wind. What is it she should be working for? Trust honor dignity? Well I think she's earned that. I honestly didn't mind the darkness and actually like Arthur's reaction...I just think it speaks volumes that the one time they decide not to redeem a characters honor it happens to be a woman.


    Worse yet in my opinion is having Gwen humiliate herself by asking Arthur "where will I go" as if the shame of having all believe her unfaithful wasn't bad enough. But the cherry on top of this misogynistic cake was all the good old boys standing around commending Lancelot on his honor in committing suicide after the harlot apparently lead him astray.


    The double standard has been around forever, and what we saw was probably an accurate reflection of those misogynistic times. In addition, suicide was often considered an honourable exit. However, Lancelot's reputation has also been tarnished, both in Camelot, and with a far more important group: the modern audience. I am so disappointed that this is the way he has gone. I think if you wait for a little while, you will find the character of Gwen redeemed We know that Gwen will be Queen, so I am certain that the misunderstanding will be clarified (although I don't know how ).


    Tankim, thank you for your support Your post is long, so I won't repeat it all here, but I agree with every word




    Oh I've no doubt that she'll be Queen. I've every doubt that her character will be redeemed prior to Arthur deciding he'll have her after all and more importantly at this point why would she have him? Why would she not stay where ever it is she goes (John and Mary's ...stroke of luck that )Wink and build a life for herself. She's supposed to be strong brave salt of the earth type...so honestly at this point what would a woman like Gwen see in a man like Arthur.



    Too frequently we women don't really like and support women. I do, and I must admit I liked this poorly written little drama because I had hopes of Gwen's salvation and a strong if deranged Morgana. Personally I'm just about over it. I could watched soaps or heaven forbid...The Kardashians if I wanted to see emotional door mats and unhinged hysterical harpies.





    [/QUOTE]

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    PendragonLady

    [58]Nov 26, 2011
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    boom-moo wrote:
    I don't see what the big hype about the episode was. A/G at the council room and M/L at the lake was nice acting, but not being for that, it was another nice episode.

    Not happy with the fact that Gwen isn't trusted, I expected those who love her: Arthur, Merlin, Gaius, Elyan... to at least consider there was something fishy about it all. I see it's obviously done for dramatic purposes but still.

    What has me is the fact that Lancelot remains honourable for having killed himself while Gwen is forced to leave covered in shame. Both are to blame equally, I don't see why taking your own life puts someone in a better light than facing what you've done, particularly when you regret it.

    Gah, I don't know, it's not fair to Gwen at all.


    I just finished watching it and I'm of the same mind as you, BM. The jousting scenes, A/G in the council room, and the M/L lake scene were good. But to hear Arthur say that, and Merlin simply watching as Gwen left almost ruined this episode for me. I think this is probably my least favorite episode of the series.
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    BrightlyLit

    [59]Nov 26, 2011
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    I think perhaps I enjoyed this episode less than any I've ever seen on Merlin. I was in a tight knot the whole way through. I hated its darkness, I hated what was happening. very unpleasant viewing for me.


    I understood the A/G throne room scene and yes it was wonderfully acted. But I just hated the whole thing. I'm still trying to collect myself to formulate some decent thoughts, but I can't right now. I am actually upset. Not sure why.


    The one thing that made me happy is that it finally became clear that Arthur was indeed the one who Gwen loved. It finally was verbalized and to be honest, as someone else said, some of us had a few lingering doubts as to whether she was over Lancelot. At least that was put to rest. So I'm grateful for that and of course, that her character wasn't trashed.


    I was disappointed in Merlin. I can't quite put my finger on why, but it has something to do with Gwen. Something bothered me, but I'm still sorting that out. Maybe he was just befuddled over everything, but I don't know.


    I've had lots of disappointments this season, and I'm sorry to say as well done as everything was, I feel disappointed. Maybe I'll feel better after sleeping on it.


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