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BBC (ended 2012)

Episode 4x13 'The Sword In The Stone Part 2' discussion thread

  • Avatar of arwyn-t

    arwyn-t

    [62]Dec 25, 2011
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    "You've been at court all this time, at Arthur's side. How you've managed to deceive him... I am impressed, Merlin. Perhaps we're more alike than you think."


    That is the only stroke of interesting writing Julian Jones showed in the entire script of 4x13 in my opinion.


    Merlin the master manipulator. Just like Agravaine.


    It doesn't matter that Agravaine was evil. It doesn't matter that Merlin is good. They are both deceiving, lying to and manipulating Arthur for their own ends. They are both essentially betraying him. And the more Merlin keeps his magic secret, the more he's no better than Agravaine really. His good intentions fall flat under his questionable means.


    Poor Arthur. Poor oblivious, true-hearted, innocent Arthur... A puppet on strings...


    Do. Not. Like.




    Edited on 12/25/2011 5:47am
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [63]Dec 25, 2011
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    Sparklingwater wrote:

    boom-moo wrote:
    Sparklingwater wrote:


    Suddenly Arthur and Uther descend from the mysterious king of Camelot when in fact Uther actually conquered Camelot. Okay. Not that it wasn't alright for a story Merlin made up, but Arthur shoul have remembered that Uther surely didn't conquer himself back then.


    It's a stretch but Bruta might still be Arthur's ancestor. Uther conquered Camelot but he might have regained it from someone who had stolen it from Uther's ancestors fo one or more generations. Uther and Arthur are constantly at the brink of losing Camelot (well, both actually lose it) once and again and it might have very well been the same in the past.


    That's far more than a stretch because how far could this ancestor line go back without Arthur knowing about it?

    But Arthur does know about it. He is the one who says "Bruta, every child in Camelot knows that story" or something along the lines. He knows that Bruta is his ancestor and he probably knows many others down the line. The fact that when Uther arrived to Camelot he had to fight to win it instead of inheriting it does't mean that Bruta is not Uther's ancestor. Camelot could have been lost to the Pendragons for several generations before Uther won it back. We only see that kingdoms are won and lost all the time.

    Sounds like careless writing, but it doesn't need to be an inconsistency at all.

    Sparklingwater wrote:

    It's not about disagreeing or critizising his father. That was totally okay and you are right, we have seen their disagreement several times. It is about not defending his father and what's worse, insulting him by comparing him to Morgana. When he spoke to Morgana, he made Uther responsible for her behaviour and then he also compared her to him in a very negative way. It was the meanest insult he could have ever made, he actually betrayed him by that. Morgana is Camelot's arch-enemy who stops at nothing, not even her own family and her closest friends. I guess it would have made Uther cringe and destroyed him even more, had he heard that his son compared him to a crazy evil WITCH, moreover the one that killed him.

    I don't think he made Uther responsible for her behaviour. Morgana compares Arthur to Uther by saying that she knows how he feels about her and her kind so that he isn't that different from his father as he likes to think. Then Arthur replies that she isn't either. They are both acknowledging that they take after their father in a certain aspect of Uther's personality: Arthur is like his father (to some extent) in his fear of magic and Morgana is like her father in that she wouldn't stop until seeing those which she considers her enemies dead. That doesn't make Uther responsible for either, they have both chosen which side of the argument to stand, which war to fight and what means to use. They have been both conditioned by their upbringing but in the end they are making their own choices. So they are both comparing each other to Uther using that trait they were opposed to, which has naturally brought them apart. But that doesn't rule out that there are many othe traits in Uther that they fully admired, particularly Arthur. The fact that he has never been blind to his father's flaws (or what he considers flaws) made him understanding of the way many people felt about him which has nothing to do with disrespecting his memory. Uther is dead, but that doesn't turn him flawless in Arthur's eyes. I have no doubt that Arthur would fight to the death with anyone insulting his father, but reckoning that he was blind in his hatred, that Morgana is very much like that and that himself is wary of magic because of the way he has been taught are hardly any insult but truths he has acknowledged even when his father was alive.
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    PenguinSuzie

    [64]Dec 25, 2011
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    Well put.
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  • Avatar of Sparklingwater

    Sparklingwater

    [65]Dec 25, 2011
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    boom-moo wrote:


    I don't think he made Uther responsible for her behaviour.


    Yes, he did, absolutely. He told her that he is not responsible for the sins of his father (by the way, it should have been "our" father), hence he makes him responsible and blames him for Morgana's insanity.


    boom-moo wrote:


    Morgana compares Arthur to Uther by saying that she knows how he feels about her and her kind so that he isn't that different from his father as he likes to think. Then Arthur replies that she isn't either. They are both acknowledging that they take after their father in a certain aspect of Uther's personality: Arthur is like his father (to some extent) in his fear of magic and Morgana is like her father in that she wouldn't stop until seeing those which she considers her enemies dead. That doesn't make Uther responsible for either, they have both chosen which side of the argument to stand, which war to fight and what means to use. They have been both conditioned by their upbringing but in the end they are making their own choices. So they are both comparing each other to Uther using that trait they were opposed to, which has naturally brought them apart. But that doesn't rule out that there are many othe traits in Uther that they fully admired, particularly Arthur. The fact that he has never been blind to his father's flaws (or what he considers flaws) made him understanding of the way many people felt about him which has nothing to do with disrespecting his memory. Uther is dead, but that doesn't turn him flawless in Arthur's eyes. I have no doubt that Arthur would fight to the death with anyone insulting his father, but reckoning that he was blind in his hatred, that Morgana is very much like that and that himself is wary of magic because of the way he has been taught are hardly any insult but truths he has acknowledged even when his father was alive.



    I have to repeat myself. It's not about seeing his flaws and disagreeing with him. When he compares the arch-enemy of both Camelot and himself to his own father, a magical person who killed his father and who is so full of hatred that she can's see any good in anyone anymore and acts like a psychopath, brutally and ruthless which is out of proportion to what Uther had ever done or could have ever done, he cleary insults his father tremendously. I know that it was again meant to show the purportedly similarities between Morgana and Uther but it's not true, they have nothing in common, not even their hatred, plus, Arthur reveals what he obviously really thought of his father. He said it in front of the one person who hated him the most and beyond imagination and who killed him, instead of defending his father's honor. He used Uther to abdicate responsibilty and to present himself being innocent. Even if he really thought that way of his father, it was the wrong person, the wrong time and the wrong thing to say it out loud. The fact that you have certain thoughts about a person you love doesn't mean that you have to speak them out loud, especially not in front of your enemies. And sister or not, they are enemies now.


    If he had said something like "and you are nothing like him because there is nothing good left in you", for example, that would have hurt her and he would have saved Uther's honor at the same time. Not to mention that it would have been true.


    He can't think that Morgana and Uther have anything in common when all Morgana does is destroying each and everyone whereas Uther always tried to protect his family and his kingdom. All he did was out of love for his children, which doesn't make everything right but which shows that the difference between him and Morgana can't be bigger. He wanted to protect Morgana and Arthur, she wants to kill Arthur, killed Uther and wants to destroy everyone who stands in her way. They are the complete opposite. She knows that she is wrong but enjoys the torment of others. Uther thought he was right (and sometimes even was). There is nothing that can be compared. And Arthur knows that. Just because they both hate(d) something doesn't mean that they are alike. Going by that argument you would have to compare everyone who loves or hates something to others who love or hate something or someone.


    That was out of line and it was either out of character for Arthur or just another sign of his fickleness. I'd say it was the second thing because as said before, he never really stood up for Uther. Uther himself would have defended Arthur and Morgana any time.


    Not to mention that comparing each other to their father was fully and completely meant in a negative way. I know that I would never do that to my loved ones - and I am not a "noble Knight" or king or queen.

    Edited on 12/25/2011 9:13am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [66]Dec 25, 2011
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    I think Uther and Morgana are similar in that they are both ruled by their fears, which turn into obsessions. He held a great fear and obsession with magic, and didn't choose means when he tried to exterminate magic users. Morgana was, on the other hand, obsessed with reinstating magic and she saw enemies in almost all non-magic people, but more importantly, in all of Uther's establishment, including Arthur, whom she probably thought of as a hierarchy of people that had to be eradicated before magic could be free again.

    In those manners, they are very similar.

    Now, I wouldn't say that Arthur is that similar to Uther. I think Morgana sees him as such, and that is the cause of their tragic misunderstanding. He has inherited some of his problems, and some of his views, but has taken a very different approach to things. He does not act automatically with things, but stops to think.
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  • Avatar of Elodie25

    Elodie25

    [67]Dec 25, 2011
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    Sparklingwater wrote:
    I have to repeat myself. It's not about seeing his flaws and disagreeing with him. When he compares the arch-enemy of both Camelot and himself to his own father, a magical person who killed his father and who is so full of hatred that she can's see any good in anyone anymore and acts like a psychopath, brutally and ruthless which is out of proportion to what Uther had ever done or could have ever done, he cleary insults his father tremendously. I know that it was again meant to show the purportedly similarities between Morgana and Uther but it's not true, they have nothing in common, not even their hatred, plus, Arthur reveals what he obviously really thought of his father.


    I just have to say, I think Uther was as brutal and ruthless as Morgana is now. He didn't just ban magic from the kingdom, he actively hunted down and murdered as many magic users as he could find. We've seen multiple children who were killed on Uther's orders. He was full of blind prejudice and hatred, just like Morgana is now. I think it's easy to forget about all the horrific things done by Uther because we never quite saw them in the show, but he truly did terrible things.


    Arthur is aware, to some extent, of his father's "shortcomings," and personally, I think that's okay. I don't get on with my dad. It's very different context, of course, because those were different times, but I'm actually quite pleased that Arthur recognizes where Uther went wrong. It shows that he won't go down that path of murdering innocents, that he'll be a better king than his father ever was.

    Edited on 12/25/2011 10:10am
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  • Avatar of Tankim

    Tankim

    [68]Dec 25, 2011
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    Uhm, annoying that I now just want to contribute something here because I actually didn't want to write here anymore since I got banned just for having a different point of view than one or two other people here... Anyway, I think you are talking at cross purposes on this. I have to fully agree with Sparklingwater. While I understand and agree that some of you noticed that Arthur disagreed with Uther several times and that it was important for the story as well as it was right, Sparklingwater talks about Arthur betraying his father by comparing him to the villain of this show.


    Morgana is the most evil person here, a villain that seems to have jumped out of a comic book, almost completely stripped off humanity. Not only is she doing even worse things than Uther, she also has no reason for that. What Sparklingwater wrote, that Morgana actually knows that she is wrong and that she enjoys hurting others is indeed the opposite of Uther who really was convinced to be right and who indeed didn't enjoy executing others. It's hard to talk about it in this thread actually, yet it was an important part of the last epsiode. I think it is a huge difference when you know that you are wrong with your cruelties and when you act so very selfish in order to gain power and to hurt others. Morgana really has no reason for her hatred for she didn't suffer from a traumata like Uther did when losing Igraine. I agree that he mostly did it all to protect his children and his kingdom (therefore himself) from what he thought was pure evil. Morgana on the other hand knows that Arthur, Gwen, Gaius, Merlin and others are not evil and that they truly loved her. We know that Uther was wrong most of the time because we as the audience are in the lucky position to observe it all from a distance, but Uther was convinced to be right and that he had to do it to protect Morgana and Arthur as well as Camelot. Morgana meanwhile must have been informed about the reasons for Uther's actions, yet she refuses to understand what made him the man he became. What's more, she is aware of the fact that she was the one who actually betrayed everyone who has ever loved and respected her and she truly enjoys destroying other people's lifes. While Morgana killed her father, Uther would have never hurt his daughter. So there is no way to compare one to another for they differ both in motives and their actions as well as in their emotional state and attitudes.


    It doesn't matter if Arthur often disagreed with Uther or not, the point is that he blamed him in front of Morgana and also compared him to her despite the fact that there is nothing and no one who can be compared to her, not even Morgause. Morgana torments others for her pleasure which is also something Uther would never have done. Whatever Arthur thinks of some of Uther's actions, it was actually mean to say what he said, especially when you remember that she was the one who murdered him whereas he would have never killed her. When you disagree with someone and question their actions, you are not automatically comparing them to crazy and bad people in order to make clear that you are not responsible, especially not your own father (or mother, child, sibling for that matter). One thing is disagreeing and seeing someone's flaws and terrible faults, the other thing is insulting and accusing them, both very different things. Arthur should be aware of the huge differences between Morgana and Uther.


    Aside from that, Arthur actually thought of himself as being arrogant for questioning his father's attitude toward's magic. Therefore he can't disagree that much with him so that he has the guts to compare him to Morgana. Either way, this scene was very, very questionable. In this season it was at least the second time that Arthur betrayed his father. First time was when he didn't admit that it was him and not Uther who slaughtered the druids.



    dpebbleson wrote:
    I think Uther and Morgana are similar in that they are both ruled by their fears, which turn into obsessions. He held a great fear and obsession with magic, and didn't choose means when he tried to exterminate magic users. Morgana was, on the other hand, obsessed with reinstating magic and she saw enemies in almost all non-magic people, but more importantly, in all of Uther's establishment, including Arthur, whom she probably thought of as a hierarchy of people that had to be eradicated before magic could be free again. In those manners, they are very similar. Now, I wouldn't say that Arthur is that similar to Uther. I think Morgana sees him as such, and that is the cause of their tragic misunderstanding. He has inherited some of his problems, and some of his views, but has taken a very different approach to things. He does not act automatically with things, but stops to think.


    I have responded to most of it above but I'd like to add that I don't believe that Morgana's real motivation is to reinstating magic. This has never been a subject when she was already in the middle of her evil plots to destroy Uther and everyone else in Camelot. I mentioned it above, she knows that her brother and her former friends aren't evil and actually wouldn't have to be her enemies. She is hungry for power and totally crazy and nuts for seeking revenge, just no one really knows why.



    It is a real pity that Isolde died! I thought that Tristan and Isolde were absolutely awesome and they alone would have been reason for me to continue watching Merlin. I don't know why but it seems that everyone I like on Merlin has to die. Shame! The most interesting characters have to go.


    I also would like to now the story about Agravaine and why he did what he did. Was he Morgana's uncle or was he in love with her and why did he want to destroy Arthur? I am disappointed that they killed him off without a conclusion but it wasn't really surprising since it seems to be the plot for the entire season. Getting rid of characters without conclusions and explanations.


    Aside from some very few nice and interesting scenes I thought that this finale wasn't quite epic but a bit boring. It was a huge Deja Vu with a rather boring cliffhanger. If Uther and Lancelot come back, I'll watch season five. If they don't come back, season five won't happen to me.

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  • Avatar of dinamo

    dinamo

    [69]Dec 25, 2011
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    Did Uther actually say that he conquered Camelot. When I watched it I thought he meant that he wasn't just given something he worked to become a good Prince so in that sense took it from his father by showing he was ready. Like how you take you opportunities when they are available, he proved himself so everyone knew he was ready, and he took over. Also in the past not everyone waited for the predessesor to die, they killed them when they were themselves ready for power. Although he could clearly have meant something different.


    Although if he did take it by force it could explain his huge desire for a son, kings need sons anyway but one with a fresh dynasty needs one all the more to shore things up and have a succession so the sharks don't start gathering sensing a collapse.

    Edited on 12/25/2011 12:13pm
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [70]Dec 25, 2011
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    Tankim wrote:


    Uhm, annoying that I now just want to contribute something here because I actually didn't want to write here anymore since I got banned just for having a different point of view than one or two other people here... Anyway, I think you are talking at cross purposes on this. I have to fully agree with Sparklingwater.

    I dare to say that 'fully' is the key word here, and in such complicated discussion it's pretty much taking sides, which we had on this thread, and which encouraged an atmosphere of competition, with enemies and allies. I don't fully agree with anyone here, and I should also add that I agree with everyone to a certain degree. I dislike dealing with absolutes and generalizations which do not help constructive dialogue and prevent positive appreciations of the others' arguments.


    Tankim wrote:
    While I understand and agree that some of you noticed that Arthur disagreed with Uther several times and that it was important for the story as well as it was right, Sparklingwater talks about Arthur betraying his father by comparing him to the villain of this show.


    Morgana is the most evil person here, a villain that seems to have jumped out of a comic book, almost completely stripped off humanity. Not only is she doing even worse things than Uther, she also has no reason for that. What Sparklingwater wrote, that Morgana actually knows that she is wrong and that she enjoys hurting others is indeed the opposite of Uther who really was convinced to be right and who indeed didn't enjoy executing others. It's hard to talk about it in this thread actually, yet it was an important part of the last epsiode. I think it is a huge difference when you know that you are wrong with your cruelties and when you act so very selfish in order to gain power and to hurt others. Morgana really has no reason for her hatred for she didn't suffer from a traumata like Uther did when losing Igraine.

    She was put into dungeon by her father; then Arthur slaughtered each and every druid that accepted her; then she was poisoned by her friend; then not acknowledged by her own father...


    Tankim wrote:


    It doesn't matter if Arthur often disagreed with Uther or not, the point is that he blamed him in front of Morgana and also compared him to her despite the fact that there is nothing and no one who can be compared to her, not even Morgause. Morgana torments others for her pleasure which is also something Uther would never have done. Whatever Arthur thinks of some of Uther's actions, it was actually mean to say what he said, especially when you remember that she was the one who murdered him whereas he would have never killed her. When you disagree with someone and question their actions, you are not automatically comparing them to crazy and bad people in order to make clear that you are not responsible, especially not your own father (or mother, child, sibling for that matter). One thing is disagreeing and seeing someone's flaws and terrible faults, the other thing is insulting and accusing them, both very different things. Arthur should be aware of the huge differences between Morgana and Uther.


    I understood it as a 'throw-back' remark, so to speak. Morgana compared him to Uther, so he compared her to him as well, showing her that you can look at things from the opposite direction.


    So it's more, 'first look yourself in the mirror before judging others'.


    The way you're describing it... I dunno, if I hadn't watched the episode I would have imagined a whole court session of Arthur enumerating Uther's flaws and then finding them in Morgana. I certainly wouldn't have imagined a short remark. You make it sound like the infamous 50+ pages long trial in 'The Brothers Karamazov' concerning who the real parents are and what way they should be to be called parents.


    Not that you're wrong, though. I think there's some truth in your remarks, I just think you're overemphasizing stuff.

    Edited on 12/25/2011 12:15pm
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    Lumy_Mee

    [71]Dec 25, 2011
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    I moved over here, too. Well, the last episode what not such a big hit for me. I thought again they attempted too much and achieved too little. I think they should understand that many times "less is more".


    I have taken a few moments from the episode I wanted to comment upon:


    1. Arthur and the sword: nice shot, but why was Merlin's magic needed to pull it off the stone and it could not be Arthur's own destiny as the trigger for this?


    2. I liked the knights gathering in the woods as the public for Arthur's boost of confidence - but nobody seemed to question how they got there


    3. Interesting confrontations between Arthur and Morgana and though too brief, Gwen and Morgana


    4. Merlin is getting deeper and deeper into secrecy and deception of Arthur and it is getting sore to watch; it also makes everything that Arthur achieves be clouded and somehow silly by Merlin's secret interventions


    5. Arthur's proposal to Gwen: "Please Arthur, I can't forgive myself" and he replies "I don't care" - even if we put it in the "right "context (of him meaning he does not care about her betrayal any more, or as a nice replica of his previous "I don't care" which was one big step in their relationship at the end of season 3) - it still gives you a feeling of her own feelings being overlooked by his. He could reject her whenever he pleased and he could persuade her to marry him whenever he pleased, whatever issues she may have. Has Gwen been turned into a kind of slave to Arthur's needs, how did she become so submissive to him?


    6. Merlin had a very tough attitude towards Morgana: any soft feelings he may have nurtured once, were clearly gone; all that was left in his heart for her was rage and the desire to put an end to her evil


    7. I saw no cliffhanger, the end of the episode left me with no questions regarding Morgana or the little dragon.


    The only questions I have are the ones I have had for a long time, such as: what about the reveal of Merlin's magic, what about the reveal of the enchantment, when is Merlin going to be given a better position at the court; or some new questions such as: will Gwen and Arthur be able to get over the betrayal, or will it still be present at times in their marriage as a shadow upon their happiness, what about the round table, will be get to see it really happen as a recurrent theme in the next series, will the knights get some stories and more screen time?


    But really, I will not have any pressing issues or questions in attendance of the next series. Which is good... I think )

    Edited on 12/25/2011 12:29pm
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    boom-moo

    [72]Dec 25, 2011
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    Sparklingwater wrote:

    boom-moo wrote:


    I don't think he made Uther responsible for her behaviour.


    Yes, he did, absolutely. He told her that he is not responsible for the sins of his father (by the way, it should have been "our" father), hence he makes him responsible and blames him for Morgana's insanity.

    Yeah, Arthur is not responsible indeed for the sins of his father which are what made Morgana turn her back on him, but neither Uther can be held responsible for the line of action that Morgana decided to take (her father's, actually, brutal murder) once her true colours were revealed.
    Sparklingwater wrote:
    I know that it was again meant to show the purportedly similarities between Morgana and Uther but it's not true, they have nothing in common, not even their hatred, plus, Arthur reveals what he obviously really thought of his father.
    As Elodie pointed out I think that they have a lot in common, so I won't elaborate further as we would be going on in circles.

    Sparklingwater wrote:
    Even if he really thought that way of his father, it was the wrong person, the wrong time and the wrong thing to say it out loud. The fact that you have certain thoughts about a person you love doesn't mean that you have to speak them out loud, especially not in front of your enemies.
    It doesn't indeed mean that you have to speak them out loud but it doesn't rule it out either. It's up to everyone. And it's not like Morgana wasn't privy to that information already.

    Sparklingwater wrote:
    Not to mention that comparing each other to their father was fully and completely meant in a negative way. I know that I would never do that to my loved ones - and I am not a "noble Knight" or king or queen.
    Again, that's up to everyone. I don't think that Arthur is less noble for reckoning his father's flaws. I don't see Arthur doing that in front of visiting kings, but it is not like he is breaking any news to Morgana neither about his father's flaws nor about him being able to see them.
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    boom-moo

    [74]Dec 25, 2011
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    dinamo wrote:

    Did Uther actually say that he conquered Camelot.

    Uther tells to Arthur: "When I was your age, I conquered Camelot. I didn't inherit this Kingdom, I won it. One day you'll be strong enough to take my crown, but not yet."

    He conquered Camelot by the sword indeed
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    Tankim

    [75]Dec 25, 2011
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    Since my response to dpebbleson was deleted in which I said that aside from me there were several other people who got banned here at the same time like me (I have my opinion about being censored):



    dpebbleson,


    The fact that Morgana wasn't acknowleged as Uther's daughter is no reason for her actions. If Uther had acknowleged her it would have destroyed the reputation of his friend Gorlois as well as of Viviane. Also he nd Viviane commited adultery which obviously was a crime. There might be some other reasons, but all in all they never justify Morgana's malignance. Nor do the other things you have mentioned. It might be enough to dislike Uther and to hate what he did but not enough for her to get insane and to try to kill all the people she once loved and who loved her or to enjoy tormenting and hurting others.


    I'm not overemphasizing but discussing. This whole "Uher is responsible for everything" is a common theme in season four. The long awaited confrontation between Arthur and Morgana consisted only of that, so we are talking about it here. Maybe my mistake is to try to find some sense and depth in dialogues and scenes... maybe there isn't. Sorry, but that is what picked my interest the most because the confrontation between Morgana and Arthur was key (or supposed to be key) to the plot and, as I assume, character development. Their concversation was as important as the relationship between Arthur and Gwen is. Things are being discussed here, that's what the forum is for.


    Edited on 12/25/2011 1:46pm
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    dpebbleson

    [76]Dec 25, 2011
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    Tankim wrote:

    The fact that Morgana wasn't acknowleged as Uther's daughter is no reason for her actions. If Uther had acknowleged her it would have destroyed the reputation of his friend Gorlois as well as of Viviane. Also he nd Viviane commited adultery which obviously was a crime. There might be some other reasons, but all in all they never justify Morgana's malignance. Nor do the other things you have mentioned. It might be enough to dislike Uther and to hate what he did but not enough for her to get insane and to try to kill all the people she once loved and who loved her or to enjoy tormenting and hurting others.



    But you seem to omit my arguments here. Uther had her thrown into the dungeons; he didn't want to acknowledge her as his daughter; he wanted to kill Mordred, whom she genuinely loved.

    Merlin poisoned her to death.

    Arthur went and slaughtered the entire druid camp which could have been her new family.

    Now, I can see what you mean that she started enjoying tormenting and hurting others. They may have written her a bit too extreme. On the other hand, it's exactly the Uther-extreme in her. Like Uther, she doesn't know moderation when the feelings and acting upon them are concerned.

    In my opinion, they should have made her more gray, so to speak, but I still don't have much qualms with her. And I'm actually in minority here, since most of the people think she's acting like a Terminator, and I can see their point.

    Tankim wrote:

    I'm not overemphasizing but discussing. This whole "Uher is responsible for everything" is a common theme in season four. The long awaited confrontation between Arthur and Morgana consisted only of that, so we are talking about it here. Maybe my mistake is to try to find some sense and depth in dialogues and scenes... maybe there isn't. Sorry, but that is what picked my interest the most because the confrontation between Morgana and Arthur was key (or supposed to be key) to the plot and, as I assume, character development. Their concversation was as important as the relationship between Arthur and Gwen is. Things are being discussed here, that's what the forum is for.




    Those were, like, three or four words "And so are you", so how come you're not overemphasizing?

    I agree it's interesting, but I don't see why it's more relevant than many other things Arthur said about his father, and that in positive context. It's not like one small remark in a verbal fight with the sister who is trying to kill you tells you everything about Arthur's opinion of Uther.
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [77]Dec 25, 2011
    • member since: 02/05/07
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    Lumy_Mee wrote:

    Arthur and the sword: nice shot, but why was Merlin's magic needed to pull it off the stone and it could not be Arthur's own destiny as the trigger for this?

    Because the story was made up by Merlin. The sword is not meant to prove Arthur's destiny, it is just a sword that was put on a stone using magic and hence magic was needed to pull it out.

    Lumy_Mee wrote:
    I liked the knights gathering in the woods as the public for Arthur's boost of confidence - but nobody seemed to question how they got there
    Merlin had told Arthur before that those who escaped were hidden in that same forest, and since he was able to find the sword that means that he had been wondering around the forest for a while. What Arthur doesn't know is that Merlin already knew where the sword was and that he counted on the dragon's help to track the hidden Camelotians faster.

    Lumy_Mee wrote:
    Merlin is getting deeper and deeper into secrecy and deception of Arthur and it is getting sore to watch; it also makes everything that Arthur achieves be clouded and somehow silly by Merlin's secret interventions
    He holds Arthur back big time indeed and I wonder if TPTB plan to ever let Arthur shine on his own merits.

    Lumy_Mee wrote:
    Arthur's proposal to Gwen: "Please Arthur, I can't forgive myself" and he replies "I don't care" - even if we put it in the "right "context (of him meaning he does not care about her betrayal any more, or as a nice replica of his previous "I don't care" which was one big step in their relationship at the end of season 3) - it still gives you a feeling of her own feelings being overlooked by his. He could reject her whenever he pleased and he could persuade her to marry him whenever he pleased, whatever issues she may have. Has Gwen been turned into a kind of slave to Arthur's needs, how did she become so submissive to him?
    It didn't sound like 3x11 Gwen at all even though she said again that she couldn't forgive herself.
    Lumy_Mee wrote:
    Merlin had a very tough attitude towards Morgana: any soft feelings he may have nurtured once, were clearly gone; all that was left in his heart for her was rage and the desire to put an end to her evil
    I can't blame Merlin for that but I wonder if he could have killed Morgana on the spot (I think he could have actually done it) instead of just blasting her off. His heart has hardened indeed but he is not as blinded by hatred as she is.
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    Tankim

    [78]Dec 25, 2011
    • member since: 08/16/10
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 159

    dpebbleson wrote:
    Tankim wrote:


    The fact that Morgana wasn't acknowleged as Uther's daughter is no reason for her actions. If Uther had acknowleged her it would have destroyed the reputation of his friend Gorlois as well as of Viviane. Also he nd Viviane commited adultery which obviously was a crime. There might be some other reasons, but all in all they never justify Morgana's malignance. Nor do the other things you have mentioned. It might be enough to dislike Uther and to hate what he did but not enough for her to get insane and to try to kill all the people she once loved and who loved her or to enjoy tormenting and hurting others.


    But you seem to omit my arguments here. Uther had her thrown into the dungeons; he didn't want to acknowledge her as his daughter; he wanted to kill Mordred, whom she genuinely loved. Merlin poisoned her to death. Arthur went and slaughtered the entire druid camp which could have been her new family. Now, I can see what you mean that she started enjoying tormenting and hurting others. They may have written her a bit too extreme. On the other hand, it's exactly the Uther-extreme in her. Like Uther, she doesn't know moderation when the feelings and acting upon them are concerned. In my opinion, they should have made her more gray, so to speak, but I still don't have much qualms with her. And I'm actually in minority here, since most of the people think she's acting like a Terminator, and I can see their point.


    No, I don't omit your arguments, I just didn't want to mention each of them to keep it a little shorter. As I said, it's enough to hate his actions and to dislike him but not enough to kill everyone. She knew Mordred only a few hours, how could she genuinely love him? Merlin poisened Morgana because she was about to kill everyone in Camelot, including her family and friends. A sane person would understand that and not blame the one who had no other option to save hundreds or even thousands of lives. Of course, she can hate Uther's orders to kill the druids and turn her back on him but it still isn't enough to get insane and become evil and to ignore the love her father had for her. And everyone else's love. She also knew that she had the power to change him. I guess only Morgana and Igraine could have succeeded in that if they had tried or better, in Igraine's case, if she had a chance. Morgana decided to nuke everyone and everything, so to speak, and that is definitely not the action a person with a common sense.



    dpebbleson wrote:


    Those were, like, three or four words "And so are you", so how come you're not overemphasizing? I agree it's interesting, but I don't see why it's more relevant than many other things Arthur said about his father, and that in positive context. It's not like one small remark in a verbal fight with the sister who is trying to kill you tells you everything about Arthur's opinion of Uther.


    The thing is that there weren't many positive things being said about Uther. Arthur said just once that he isn't sure if he can be the good King his father was but that was it. Other mentionings of Uther were completely negative and I have indeed already discussed them in the threads about the epsiodes.


    The "Neither are you" actually summarized everything that we are discussing about here on the subject. Sometimes just one sentence can tell a book. It showed what Arthur thinks both of Morgana and Uther. It would have been different if he had taken it back afterwards, maybe in a conversation with Merlin or something, just to show that it was just faux pas.

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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [79]Dec 25, 2011
    • member since: 11/06/09
    • level: 23
    • rank: Close Talker
    • posts: 5,645
    Tankim wrote:

    No, I don't omit your arguments, I just didn't want to mention each of them to keep it a little shorter. As I said, it's enough to hate his actions and to dislike him but not enough to kill everyone. She knew Mordred only a few hours, how could she genuinely love him? Merlin poisened Morgana because she was about to kill everyone in Camelot, including her family and friends. A sane person would understand that and not blame the one who had no other option to save hundreds or even thousands of lives. Of course, she can hate Uther's orders to kill the druids and turn her back on him but it still isn't enough to get insane and become evil and to ignore the love her father had for her. And everyone else's love. She also knew that she had the power to change him. I guess only Morgana and Igraine could have succeeded in that if they had tried or better, in Igraine's case, if she had a chance. Morgana decided to nuke everyone and everything, so to speak, and that is definitely not the action a person with a common sense.



    As for her deciding to 'nuke everyone and everything' not being the action of a person 'with a common sense', I can agree to some extent. As I said, I'm in minority who find Morgana's action credible.

    We have to disagree about the impacts these events had on Morgana's development. She bonded with Mordred; besides if she didn't bond that much, imagine the horror of watching a wounded kid being executed just because he had magic. What else could she think of Uther?

    Whether it's enough to drive her insane, I do not know. I think it's enough to drive her very insecure and afraid of everything concerning Uther.


    Tankim wrote:

    The thing is that there weren't many positive things being said about Uther. Arthur said just once that he isn't sure if he can be the good King his father was but that was it. Other mentionings of Uther were completely negative and I have indeed already discussed them in the threads about the epsiodes.


    The "Neither are you" actually summarized everything that we are discussing about here on the subject. Sometimes just one sentence can tell a book. It showed what Arthur thinks both of Morgana and Uther. It would have been different if he had taken it back afterwards, maybe in a conversation with Merlin or something, just to show that it was just faux pas.



    Arthur has always looked up to his father. Why would he take it back? Do you think persons have only one aspect? If Uther was over-obsessed with his enemies, and that is his common trait with Morgana, does it mean he was a bad father, bad ruler, manager of the kingdom, bad warrior, and so on and so forth?

    I think Arthur was pointing out that Morgana was in at least one way Uther's daughter. In many ways she wasn't. So what?
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [80]Dec 25, 2011
    • member since: 02/05/07
    • level: 75
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    Morgana's premonitory dreams:
    -None.

    Morgana's smirks of doom:
    -None.

    DaNko, would you say there are any Agravaine's advances on Morgana in the finale (both eps). Those remain pending, thanks

    Episode 4x13 magic and spells:
    -Merlin summons the great dragon (using his dragonlord power).
    -Merlin blasts Agravaine and his men (using his mind).
    -Merlin blasts Agravaine (using his mind).
    -Merlin unlocks a grate (using a spell).
    -Merlin ages up into Old Merlin (using a spell).
    -Old Merlin knocks a Southron man over (using his mind).
    -Old Merlin enchants a straw doll (using a spell).
    -(Offscreen) Old Merlin goes back to young Merlin.
    -The straw doll takes Morgana's magic away.
    -The straw doll prevents Morgana from using magic (twice).
    -Merlin blasts Morgana (using his mind).
    -Aithusa exhales the breath of life on Morgana.
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  • Avatar of dinamo

    dinamo

    [81]Dec 25, 2011
    • member since: 10/01/11
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 73

    boom-moo wrote:
    dinamo wrote:


    Did Uther actually say that he conquered Camelot.


    Uther tells to Arthur: "When I was your age, I conquered Camelot. I didn't inherit this Kingdom, I won it. One day you'll be strong enough to take my crown, but not yet." He conquered Camelot by the sword indeed


    Ah, thank you. I was certain he said something about Arthur being able to take the crown, I couldn;t quite remember whether he said he conquered or took. Although he does seem to imply he expects Arthur to TAKE his crown someday, so maybe he did take it from his father it was just more complicated for him. Perhaps his father stiff had supporters so he had to gather his own supports and fight his father for Camelot. Probably not but I've always thought of the Pendragons as a dynasty of holders of Camelot, but perhaps it wasn't that way. Maybe they lost it and Uther regained it. Or maybe like many things it'll never actually be truly acknowledged by the writters so we'll always speculate about it, a bit like Morgause parentage or something, lol.

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