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BBC (ended 2012)

Episode 5x04 'Another's Sorrow' discussion thread

  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [1]Oct 26, 2012
    • member since: 02/05/07
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    Please post your opinions/comments/discussion topics on episode 5x04 "Another's Sorrow" here.

    -Spoilers are not allowed.
    -Bashing ships/characters is not allowed.
    -Discussion is welcome, arguing is not.
    -Trolls won't be fed, ignore and report it is.
    -Be respecful, keep it cool.



    Thank you

    (As per usual, I'll open a discussion thread for every new episode every Friday and keep it locked until Saturday. Past experience shows that comments posted before the episode airs tend to spoil the episode for spoiler free people and also, episode discussion threads that are opened days before their airing date tend to end up buried and reopened by different users which leads to confusion and clutter. Any comments regarding this episode should be done in the Spoilers thread until the episode has aired. Thank you.)

    ____________________

    5x04 Masterlists:

    Episode 5x04 magic and spells:
    -Morgana transforms herself into an old woman using an ageing spell.
    -Morgana reverts back into her normal self.
    -Morgana transforms herself into an old woman using an ageing spell.
    -Morgana summons a raven and sends a message through it using magic.
    -Morgana prevents Mithian from leaving the room by removing her from the door and making her fall to the ground.
    -Morgana reverts back into her normal self.
    -Morgana transforms herself into an old woman using an ageing spell.
    -Morgana inflicts Mithian pain by making a bracelet heat up and burn her skin.
    -Morgana blasts Merlin against a tree and tries to strangle him using magic, knocking him out.
    -Gaius heals Merlin using some burning herbs and as spell.
    -Merlin creates a diversion by making some leaves on the ground move.
    -Merlin makes King Lothar’s tomb tumble down using a spell.
    -Merlin blasts Morgana against a wall.

    Episode 5x04 RIP list:
    -Some of Odin’s men.

    Episode 5x04 Lives Saved list:
    -Arthur saves Merlin’s life by preventing Hilde / Old Morgana from killing him by interrupting when she was trying to strangle him.
    -Merlin saves Arthur’s life by preventing King Odin from killing him by using a spell to make the place tumble down.
    -Merlin saves King Odin’s life by talking Arthur out of killing him.

    What Arthur calls Merlin:
    -(To Gwen) Not entirely stupid.

    What Merlin calls Arthur:
    -

    Times Sir Leon says “Sire”:
    -2.

    Liar, liar:
    -

    Arthur's attributes to being the great king of legend:
    -His peace with Mithian stands and he has an ally in King Rodor from Nemeth.
    -He risks his life to help a friend and ally.
    -He listens to Gwen’s concerns and values that she speaks up her mind.
    -He listens to Merlin’s concerns and offers him an explanation about his decision.
    -Arthur is certain that if King Odin kills him, his knights will hunt him, they will find him and they won’t rest until they have avenged their king’s slaughter.
    -Arthur dreams of uniting the land.
    -Arthur follows Merlin’s advice and offers Odin a truce by binding their kingdoms in peace in exchange of his life and to avoid an endless war.
    -He thinks himself fortunate and believes that Camelot would be nothing if it weren’t for the courage and loyalty of its friends.
    -Arthur acknowledges that everyone played their part to make a happy end possible.
    -Arthur acknowledges that Merlin deserves some credit for the good resolution regarding the truce with King Odin.

    Arthur is knocked unconscious or prevented from knowing about Merlin's magic:
    -He is kneeling down and awaiting execution when Merlin uses a spell to make the place tumble down.
    -He is escaping from the tumbling tomb when Merlin blasts Morgana away.

    What Arthur says about magic:
    -Nothing.

    Potions made by Gaius:
    -A draught for Princess Mithian.

    Gaius's smacks:
    -None.

    'I have faith Arthur makes a great king' statements:
    -Rodor says that Arthur is an honourable man.
    -Mithian: “Camelot is fortunate to have a king such as you”.
    -Gwen is proud that Arthur didn’t kill Odin giving the people hope for the future.

    Merlin and Great Dragon meetings:
    -None.

    Great Dragon's riddles:
    -None.

    Aithusa meetings:
    -None.

    Morgana's premonitory dreams:
    -None.

    Morgana's smirks of doom:
    -

    Arthur and Gwen moments:
    -They exchange a look before Arthur agrees to help Mithian.
    -Gwen is concerned when Gaius points out that Arthur might encounter a battle in which he’ll be seriously outnumbered.
    -Gwen is afraid that Arthur’s wish to get vengeance on Odin might be his real motivation to help Mithian and put his life at risk.
    -Arthur likes that Gwen speaks up her mind, relies on her honesty and loves all the more for it. He strokes her arms affectionately and kisses her on the forehead.
    -They walk holding hands. Gwen is proud that Arthur didn’t kill Odin giving the people hope for the future.

    Chestporns/Bodyporns:
    -Merlin’s armporn.

    Dungeon time:
    -None.

    Fashion:

    Merlin:
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket (day 1).
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket (day 2).
    -Red shirt, blue scarf and brown jacket (day 3).
    -Red shirt, blue scarf and brown jacket (day 4).
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket (day 5).

    Arthur:
    -White shirt (day 1). -Red padded shirt and chainmail (day 2).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with voiders (arm armour piece) and hauberk (chest armour piece) and Camelot cloak (day 3).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail.
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail (day4).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with voiders (arm armour piece) and hauberk (chest armour piece).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail (day 5).

    Morgana:
    -Black dress (day 1).
    -Black dress and black cloak (as Hilde / Old Morgana).
    -Black dress and black shawl (as Hilde / Old Morgana).
    -Black dress and black shawl (as Morgana).
    -Black dress and black shawl (as Hilde / Old Morgana) (day 2).
    -Black dress and black cloak (as Hilde / Old Morgana) (day 3).
    -Black dress, black cloak and black shawl (as Hilde / Old Morgana) (day 4).
    -Black dress and black cloak (as Morgana).

    Gwen:
    -Off the shoulders red velvet dress (day 2).
    -White nightgown with golden embroidered leaves.
    -White nightgown with golden embroidered leaves and a beige shawl.
    -Blue dress (day 5).

    Gaius:
    -Green robe (day 1, 2).
    -Maroon robe (day 3, 4).
    -Maroon robe (day 5).
    -Green robe.

    Edited on 11/03/2012 6:07am
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  • Avatar of Connor91

    Connor91

    [2]Oct 27, 2012
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    I thought it was a good episode, although basically a repeat of His Father's Son in terms of plot development, outcome and moral. I liked Gwen's part, and I like the fact that Arthur told Merlin that Gwen had given him the same advice etc. I just wish they'd use Gwen a little bit more. She had such a great role in 4x01 and now they same to be falling back into old habits.

    I have to say though, Morgana gets chucked around by seemingly invisible ghosts an awful lot. You would think, at some point, she would suspect something!?
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  • Avatar of ACDiNosey

    ACDiNosey

    [3]Oct 27, 2012
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    Connor91 wrote:
    I have to say though, Morgana gets chucked around by seemingly invisible ghosts an awful lot. You would think, at some point, she would suspect something!?

    The episode was average, I wasn't particularly gripped I must admit. at NO ONE recognising Morgana under her not-so-stealthy disguise... (except for Arthur, but too late )

    I'm not sure whether it was all that necessary for Merlin to shout at Arthur to do the right thing like that. Arthur would probably have done the right thing too... And it makes him look a bit weak in front of Odin...

    Nice filler episode, but that's all it is...
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  • Avatar of Connor91

    Connor91

    [4]Oct 27, 2012
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    ACDiNosey wrote:
    Connor91 wrote:
    I have to say though, Morgana gets chucked around by seemingly invisible ghosts an awful lot. You would think, at some point, she would suspect something!?

    The episode was average, I wasn't particularly gripped I must admit. at NO ONE recognising Morgana under her not-so-stealthy disguise... (except for Arthur, but too late )

    I'm not sure whether it was all that necessary for Merlin to shout at Arthur to do the right thing like that. Arthur would probably have done the right thing too... And it makes him look a bit weak in front of Odin...

    Nice filler episode, but that's all it is...


    Yeah, I think Katie did a good job acting as an older lady but it still looked like Morgana. I did like the bit where Merlin told Arthur to stop though, its nice that he's confident enough now to do things like that rather than his normal sulking-after-the-event routine (e.g. His Father's Son).
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  • Avatar of BrightlyLit

    BrightlyLit

    [5]Oct 27, 2012
    • member since: 03/21/11
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    I seem to be in the minority, but this was my favorite one so far.. I think it's the mood I'm in when I'm watching. This one held my interest, I thought the suspense was done well and everyone's performances were great. I thought the ending scene with Odin was well done and had the proper drama. I think we're always going to have our issues with Arthur and Merlin, insofar as who does what at a particular time. They've run out of ways to present this relationship, but I guess there's supposed to be development, because Arthur is recognizing Merlin's value, as evidenced in his closing words to Gwen.


    Arwen is always my favorite part of the show and having been starved for the past three episodes, I was quite happy with the two little scenes of interaction which we did have this week. Short conversations and not particularly essential to the story, we got a glimpse of the warmth and affection between this man and his wife and I liked that. We're seeing bits and pieces here and there, which is what I expected because their relationship is no longer an issue. I still look forward to a nice juicy kiss and I'm sure they know Arwen fans want this, so I expect it later when more appropriate. For the little bedroom scene, however, I felt heat in just the way husband and wife looked at each other, and the kiss on the forehead was just right for the circumstances of what was transpiring. But I still got the feeling the king showed evidence of possibly getting a bit distracted. I mean the queen in that nightgown was lookin' good.


    All in all, I liked it a lot, and the Arthur/Odin swordfight and some of the others had me excited.

    Edited on 10/27/2012 1:57pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of PenguinSuzie

    PenguinSuzie

    [6]Oct 27, 2012
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    I thought it was a really good episode. There was lots to like about it.


    It's kind of annoying that the villains continue to fall into the 'we have out enemies at our mercy lets stop for a chat' ' I can't believe someone took the time during our procrastination to stop us' I'm just glad Arthur's not dead, but still you'd think Morgana especially would have learned that lesson. I liked the way Merlin got rid of those guards, clever way to distract them (as opposed to the 'oh look there's a coin' trick ). I love Gwaine and Merlin scenes together and have missed their friendship so that's always good to see. I was so hoping that Merlin would have to use magic in front of Gwaine during their rescue with a 'we don't have time to deal with this right now, we'll talk about what you saw later'. I was so glad Arthur recognized that Merlin had helped, I wish he'd said something to him but it was enough.


    By this point I'm getting kind of frustrated at Morgana, I really have no sympathy for her whatsoever. I really also hope that what Gaius said about her powers wasn't foreshadowing her getting to be as powerful as Merlin, she's already taken huge leaps in power every single season and we never see her studying magic, ever. Just because such a huge thing has been made about Merlin being THE most powerful, I would be disappointed if that turned out not to be true.


    It was really nice to see a Gaius and Merlin scene at the end, like it used to always be. I loved that the knights were actually worried about Merlin when he was injured. I was really surprised that Merlin just let Morgana strangle him, it didn't look like he even tried to stop it. I know he really doesn't want to reveal his magic to everyone but still. I think it really highlights how seriously used to hiding it he is and that he's so afraid of being found out that he'd die instead. I couldn't help but get a little annoyed at Gaius's logical and reasonable reaction to Merlin's worries. Of course he was being completely reasonable, but he should be so used to weird crap happening in the castle that suspicion should be immediate instead of a calm and logical explanation.

    Edited on 10/27/2012 3:00pm
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [7]Oct 27, 2012
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:

    I was really surprised that Merlin just let Morgana strangle him, it didn't look like he even tried to stop it. I know he really doesn't want to reveal his magic to everyone but still. I think it really highlights how seriously used to hiding it he is and that he's so afraid of being found out that he'd die instead.

    I think he wasn't able to defend himself, he had no reason not to fight back and I don't see him dying just because. As he tells to Gaius later, he is afraid because her powers have grown a lot.

    __________________

    Episode 5x04 magic and spells:
    -Morgana transforms herself into an old woman using an ageing spell.
    -Morgana reverts back into her normal self.
    -Morgana transforms herself into an old woman using an ageing spell.
    -Morgana summons a raven and sends a message through it using magic.
    -Morgana prevents Mithian from leaving the room by removing her from the door and making her fall to the ground.
    -Morgana reverts back into her normal self.
    -Morgana transforms herself into an old woman using an ageing spell.
    -Morgana inflicts Mithian pain by making a bracelet heat up and burn her skin.
    -Morgana blasts Merlin against a tree and tries to strangle him using magic, knocking him out.
    -Gaius heals Merlin using some burning herbs and as spell.
    -Merlin creates a diversion by making some leaves on the ground move.
    -Merlin makes the ground shake and the walls tumble down using a spell.
    -Merlin blasts Morgana against a wall.

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  • Avatar of Scop

    Scop

    [8]Oct 27, 2012
    • member since: 01/21/12
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    Just to stick up for the makup here


    When I saw Katie in the makeup on my trip to Pierrefonds, I didn't realize it was her until someone else said "I think that's Katie." I think she cottoned on to it from someone else's tweet. Then we started playing the comparison game and decided it was her and not just someone who bore a resemblance.


    As far as the story goes, sure one or two folks might see through Morgana's disguise. But, with no prior knowledge, and no reason to suspect a disguise, if the one or two people who figure it out aren't telling, yeah, Morgana could get away with it.

    Edited on 10/28/2012 6:38am
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [9]Oct 28, 2012
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    'I have faith Arthur makes a great king' statements:
    -Rodor says that Arthur is an honourable man.
    -Mithian: “Camelot is fortunate to have a king such as you”.
    -Gwen is proud that Arthur didn’t kill Odin giving the people hope for the future.
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  • Avatar of zeencat

    zeencat

    [10]Oct 28, 2012
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    I enjoyed this episode but certainly not as much as the last three. It was a filler episode but it did end the OdinArthur plot line which is good. Thats been dragging since episode 2 of season 2. I enjoyed the bromance between Arthur and Merlin although there wasn't a great deal of it. It did further a long the relationship between Merlin and Arthur. (He actually got to see Merlin saving him for once). I enjoyed the fact that there was more magic displayed by both Morgana and Merlin in this episode than in the previous episodes. The Arthur and Gwen scenes were few but I really enjoyed them.
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [11]Oct 28, 2012
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    Arthur and Gwen moments:
    -They exchange a look before Arthur agrees to help Mithian.
    -Gwen is concerned when Gaius points out that Arthur might encounter a battle in which he’ll be seriously outnumbered.
    -Gwen is afraid that Arthur’s wish to get vengeance on Odin might be his real motivation to help Mithian and put his life at risk.
    -Arthur likes that Gwen speaks up her mind, relies on her honesty and loves all the more for it. He strokes her arms affectionately and kisses her on the forehead.
    -They walk holding hands. Gwen is proud that Arthur didn’t kill Odin giving the people hope for the future.
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  • Avatar of Scop

    Scop

    [12]Oct 28, 2012
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    Yep, loved that Arthur got to see Merlin save him. It was with a sword, but since we know they aren't going to give us a magic reveal, having Arthur thinking that his lecture in the S502 about the Knights of Camelot not leaving anyone behind paid off and that Merlin can and does play by those rules will have to do


    I can see why Gaius joined the away team (someone else had made that Star Trek reference earlier - hats off to you for that!). Gaius has gone out in the field in the past when someone had grave injuries. Merlin's medical abilities may be advanced that he can handle much of that now, (and sticking with good Star Fleet decorum, the medical staff is allowed to give the Captain...er...ah...King orders), but you don't send a second stringer out when the injured party is a fellow King in which you are in good standing.


    The only problem I had with episode was why, if Morgana was in the castle, didn't she go after Arthur directly, cornering in his bedroom and dealing with him directly. Why did she really need Odin?


    To me, this is just saying that they're starting to get to the stories where they NEED Merlin's magic (or at least Dragoon's magic) to be known. Without that knowledge, Arthur is a sitting duck at the whim of Morgana when she's around. With it, Merlin can start setting up wards and creating magical weapons that would put Arthur and the Knights on a more even playing field. That NEED is a good thing, story wise, because it creates good dramatic tension that pulls us closer to the precipice of the reveal. But if Morgana can march right into the castle, and all she can really do is threaten Mithian's father, it backs you away from that.


    Going into the episode itself, the only clue I can find as to why she didn't go directly after Arthur is Arthur's statement to Odin about the knights, how they wouldn't give up on their revenge if Arthur were killed. Morgana can't take on all the knights, so she needs an Army to get rid of them. Just getting rid of Arthur wouldn't assure her the power of the throne. To get that, she need's Odin's knights to fight Camelot's knights, and to get Odin, she has to give him Arthur alive.


    Best I can come up with.


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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [13]Oct 28, 2012
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    Arthur's attributes to being the great king of legend:
    -His peace with Mithian stands and he has an ally in King Rodor from Nemeth.
    -He risks his life to help a friend and ally.
    -He listens to Gwen’s concerns and values that she speaks up her mind.
    -He listens to Merlin’s concerns and offers him an explanation about his decision.
    -Arthur is certain that if King Odin kills him, his knights will hunt him, they will find him and they won’t rest until they have avenged their king’s slaughter.
    -Arthur dreams of uniting the land.
    -Arthur follows Merlin’s advice and offers Odin a truce by binding their kingdoms in peace in exchange of his life and to avoid an endless war.
    -He thinks himself fortunate and believes that Camelot would be nothing if it weren’t for the courage and loyalty of its friends.
    -Arthur acknowledges that everyone played their part to make a happy end possible.
    -Arthur acknowledges that Merlin deserves some credit for the good resolution regarding the truce with King Odin.
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  • Avatar of illegalferret

    illegalferret

    [14]Oct 29, 2012
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    I enjoyed this episode, i agree it wasn't quite as good as The Death Song of Uther Pendragon but it was still a highly enjoyable episode.I liked having various characters from previous series back, it was a nice little nod to the show's past especially the ongoing attempts at revenge between Arthur and Odin.


    The plan to lure Arthur over Camelot's border was a good compared to Morgana's normal plans! Arthur has a habit of helping people in distress. It was nice to see him work with and listen to Guinevere even though she had only a small part to play, he also listened to Merlin at the end (and thanked him...sort of!) I thought his speech to Odin about bring peace was very good, quite Kingly and well delivered. Nice also to see Gwaine work with Merlin and Gaius do magic!! I quite liked Morgana's disguise i'm not surprised no cottoned on to the fact it was her as no-one's ever recognised Merlin when he is all old!


    Two final points, the look Arthur gave Morgana when she revealed herself in the tomb was heartbreaking and sort of full of pity in my opinion and secondly was the actor playing Odin the same one as in series 2 epi 2?

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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [15]Oct 29, 2012
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    illegalferret wrote:

    The plan to lure Arthur over Camelot's border was a good compared to Morgana's normal plans!

    LOL! That's true

    illegalferret wrote:

    was the actor playing Odin the same one as in series 2 epi 2?

    Yeah, he's called Fintan McKeown and he looked quite different indeed (chubbier I'd say although it was kind of dark in 2x02).

    Fashion:

    Merlin:
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket (day 1).
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket (day 2).
    -Red shirt, blue scarf and brown jacket (day 3).
    -Red shirt, blue scarf and brown jacket (day 4).
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket (day 5).

    Arthur:
    -White shirt (day 1). -Red padded shirt and chainmail (day 2).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with voiders (arm armour piece) and hauberk (chest armour piece) and Camelot cloak (day 3).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail.
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail (day4).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with voiders (arm armour piece) and hauberk (chest armour piece).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail (day 5).

    Morgana:
    -Black dress (day 1).
    -Black dress and black cloak (as Hilde / Old Morgana).
    -Black dress and black shawl (as Hilde / Old Morgana).
    -Black dress and black shawl (as Morgana).
    -Black dress and black shawl (as Hilde / Old Morgana) (day 2).
    -Black dress and black cloak (as Hilde / Old Morgana) (day 3).
    -Black dress, black cloak and black shawl (as Hilde / Old Morgana) (day 4).
    -Black dress and black cloak (as Morgana).

    Gwen:
    -Off the shoulders red velvet dress (day 2).
    -White nightgown with golden embroidered leaves.
    -White nightgown with golden embroidered leaves and a beige shawl.
    -Blue dress (day 5).

    Gaius:
    -Green robe (day 1, 2).
    -Maroon robe (day 3, 4).
    -Maroon robe (day 5).
    -Green robe.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [16]Oct 30, 2012
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    Finally to comment. Quite an uneventful episode, and kinda boring. Morgana's plans fail one after another, it is something that needs to change rather quickly. In S1 and S2 we had many villains each failing each time, but now it's mostly one villain failing many times.

    Though I agree with Sarah on Morgana's change, it was done rather well, and I'm not concerned they didn't notice her, they simply didn't expect her, and no man's gaze will dwell on an old woman's wrinkled face for too long

    No Smirks of Doom, and no Premonitory Dreams.
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [17]Oct 30, 2012
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    Arthur is knocked unconscious or prevented from knowing about Merlin's magic:
    -He is kneeling down and awaiting execution when Merlin uses a spell to make the place tumble down.
    -He is escaping from the tumbling tomb when Merlin blasts Morgana away.

    What Arthur says about magic:
    -Nothing.
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  • Avatar of ACDiNosey

    ACDiNosey

    [18]Oct 30, 2012
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    It struck me that Arthur has matured in his attitude to certain death in this episode. When he's about to be executed, he remains full of dignity and doesn't move, shake or cry, as he did in last year's episode when Elyan had been possessed by a spirit. I know the circumstances were different, but it is interesting (imo) nonetheless.
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [19]Oct 30, 2012
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    He certainly is not bluffing every time he says he's willing to die for Camelot, for a knight of Camelot, for a friend or for an ally.

    Yes, Uther. Camelot comes first indeed, even before Arthur.
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  • Avatar of illegalferret

    illegalferret

    [20]Oct 30, 2012
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    boom-moo wrote:
    illegalferret wrote:


    was the actor playing Odin the same one as in series 2 epi 2?


    Yeah, he's called Fintan McKeown and he looked quite different indeed (chubbier I'd say although it was kind of dark in 2x02).


    Thank you, i knew you'd know the answer that's why i asked


    ACDiNosey wrote:
    It struck me that Arthur has matured in his attitude to certain death in this episode. When he's about to be executed, he remains full of dignity and doesn't move, shake or cry, as he did in last year's episode when Elyan had been possessed by a spirit. I know the circumstances were different, but it is interesting (imo) nonetheless.


    Good point! I thought towards the end of the episode Arthur had matured a lot as a king from last series to this one.

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