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BBC (ended 2012)

Episode 5x07 'A Lesson In Vengeance' discussion thread

  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [1]Nov 17, 2012
    • member since: 02/05/07
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    Please post your opinions/comments/discussion topics on episode 5x07 "A Lesson In Vengeance" here.

    -Spoilers are not allowed.
    -Bashing ships/characters is not allowed.
    -Discussion is welcome, arguing is not.
    -Trolls won't be fed, ignore and report it is.
    -Be respecful, keep it cool.



    Thank you

    (As per usual, I'll open a discussion thread for every new episode every Friday and keep it locked until Saturday. Past experience shows that comments posted before the episode airs tend to spoil the episode for spoiler free people and also, episode discussion threads that are opened days before their airing date tend to end up buried and reopened by different users which leads to confusion and clutter. Any comments regarding this episode should be done in the Spoilers thread until the episode has aired. Thank you.)

    ________________________

    5x07 Masterlists:

    Episode 5x07 magic and spells:
    -Merlin unarms a random bandit.
    -Morgana makes Gwaine fall off his horse.
    -Morgana transforms into and old woman.
    -Merlin turns into Emrys using an ageing potion.
    -Emrys knocks the cook out with a flying saucepan.
    -Emrys turns back into Merlin using a potion.
    -Merlin makes a chandelier loose on the wall using magic.
    -Merlin blows all the torches off using a spell.
    -Merlin heals Arthur using a spell.

    Episode 5x07 RIP list:
    -Two random bandits killed by Arthur.
    -Tyr, murdered by (enchanted) Gwen.

    Episode 5x07 Lives Saved list:
    -Merlin saves Arthur’s life with his magic after he’s been poisoned by (enchanted) Gwen.

    What Arthur calls Merlin:
    -Not bright enough.

    What Merlin calls Arthur:
    -(Ironically) Thoughtful.

    Times Sir Leon says “Sire”:
    -3.

    Liar, liar:
    -

    Arthur's attributes to being the great king of legend:
    -The law is to be abided by even if he doesn’t like it.
    -He listens to the advice given by others and reckons that he should have learnt from experience when it comes to trusting those close to him.
    -He listens equally to the advice given by Gwen and Merlin.
    -He is really distressed about Tyr’s death, claiming that he’s been a fool for not following his instincts and having spoken to him when he had the chance.
    -He is truly sorry about Merlin’s accusation and imprisonment and never believed for a second that he was behind Arthur’s assassination attempt.
    -He is proud of Gwen’s worth when it comes to uncovering (what he believes to be) the truth. Long live the Queen.

    Arthur is knocked unconscious or prevented from knowing about Merlin's magic:
    -He is fighting when Merlin unarms the bandit.
    -He is at the brink of death when Merlin saves his life with a spell.

    What Arthur says about magic:
    -He believes Gwaine’s word that he fell off his horse because of sorcery but he thinks that pinning it to Morgana without further proof is just idle speculation.

    Potions made by Gaius:
    -Ageing one for Merlin to turn into Emrys.

    Gaius's smacks:
    -None.

    'I have faith Arthur makes a great king' statements:
    -Gwen calls Arthur a great and honourable King.

    Merlin and Great Dragon meetings:
    -None.

    Great Dragon's riddles:
    -None.

    Aithusa meetings:
    -None.

    Morgana's premonitory dreams:
    -None.

    Morgana's smirks of doom:
    -None (but enchanted Gwen smirked twice: once when talking to Gaius on the steps inside the castle and then when speaking with Sir Leon about ruling Camelot after Arthur).

    Arthur and Gwen moments:
    [Enchanted Gwen]
    -They go on a picnic to celebrate their wedding anniversary.
    -She rubs Arthur’s back and shoulder affectionately while Gaius tends to Arthur’s wounds.
    -He listens to her advice and believes that she is right. She leans on his knee and tries to make Arthur feel better about his decision to sentence Tyr to death and reassures him that it was the right thing to do.
    -She says she couldn’t afford to lose Arthur. He strokes her face and promises her that he will never leave her. She kisses his hand.
    -Arthur strokes her tummy, she strokes his arm.
    -Arthur is worried because he can’t find Gwen.
    -They are holding hands, Gwen tells him that she would lay down her life to protect him.
    -Join their hands in a tight grip.
    -She strokes his shoulder and kisses his forehead.
    -He serves her some wine when she is thirsty.
    -Arthur says that her kindness never ceases to amaze him.
    -Arthur is sorry that they never had their wedding anniversary celebration. They clink cups and Arthur cheers to them.
    -Gwen is highly distressed about Arthur and asks Gaius about him, if there is any hope.
    -Gwen doesn’t leave Arthur’s side and cries her heart out, telling Sir Leon how she can’t imagine going on without Arthur, how he promised her that he wouldn’t leave her.
    -She refuses to leave Arthur’s side.
    -Arthur proclaims that Gwen’s tireless efforts and diligence have uncovered the truth. Long live the Queen!

    Chestporns/Bodyporns:
    -Arthur’s white see-through shirt.
    -Merlin’s armsporn.

    Dungeon time:
    -Tyr.
    -Merlin.

    Fashion:

    Merlin:
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket (day 1).
    -Blue shirt and red scarf.
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket (day 2).
    -Red shirt and brown jacket.
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket.
    -Old Merlin’s red robe.
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket.
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket.
    -Old Merlin’s red robe.
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and (covered with) brown jacket (day 3).
    -Blue shirt, red scarf and brown jacket.

    Arthur:
    -White shirt (day 1).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with Camelot cloak.
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail.
    -White shirt.
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail (day 2).
    -White shirt.
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail (day 3).
    -Red padded shirt and chainmail with Camelot cloak.

    Morgana:
    -Black dress and black cloak (day 2).
    -Black dress, shawl and cloak (as Old Morgana).

    Gwen:
    -Dark pink dress with maroon bodice (day 1).
    -Dark pink dress with maroon bodice and blue cloak (day 2).
    -Purple dress.
    -Dark pink dress with maroon bodice.
    -Purple dress.
    -Off the shoulders red velvet dress (day 3).

    Gaius:
    -Green robe (day 1).
    -Maroon robe (day 2).
    -Green robe (day 3).

    Edited on 11/24/2012 9:04am
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  • Avatar of Connor91

    Connor91

    [2]Nov 17, 2012
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    I enjoyed the ep, the dynamic wasn't that different to Agravaine in s4 or Morgana s3 but it was an interesting story with a nice mix of suspense and comedy. I liked it. Its not one of my favourite ever episodes but it was nice to see Gwen do something a little different. Its also the first time in a really LONG time I've been endeared to Merlin. He's been annoying me quite a bit lately but I did genuinely feel for him when he was trying to save Arthur.
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  • Avatar of trek

    trek

    [3]Nov 17, 2012
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    One of the better episodes in my opinion but even though it wasn't really a 'filler' episode it still felt a bit like one - as in we hardly progressed in the story line... You've still got to feel sorry for Merlin getting thrown in the cells/unable to voice an opinion openly. At least we got an apology out of Arthur. I would have liked to see someone else stand up to Merlin though other than Gaius - the knights??? And how come nobody considers past actions/loyalty? Does Arthur not get some 'feeling' of magic being used on him (Leon and the Cup of Life?)


    Oh well enough pointing out the plot holes...


    Still I like the fact we were introduced to a new character who wasn't a villain or some other noble from another kingdom. Some reasonable comedy scenes which is always welcome, and good set up for the next episode with the Gwen/Merlin 'look' at the end... Sad to see that no one else is suspicious of Gwen - and Merlin saving Arthur is good but he seriously needs to start getting some credit, although obviously that is quite difficult. Gotta agree with Conner91 that Merlin has been annoying me too this season (forgetting his goals!!) but you have to fell some sympathy for him after this episode...


    Trivia:More G4S-style security, knights seeming to sleep in chain mail and waking the whole city up because of 'an intruder'... Most be annoying to live in Camelot...

    Edited on 11/17/2012 1:49pm
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [4]Nov 17, 2012
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    trek wrote:

    I would have liked to see someone else stand up to Merlin though other than Gaius - the knights???

    Me too. Tyr got a hearing but Merlin didn't even have the chance to defend himself.
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  • Avatar of trek

    trek

    [5]Nov 17, 2012
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    boom-moo wrote:
    trek wrote:

    I would have liked to see someone else stand up to Merlin though other than Gaius - the knights???

    Me too. Tyr got a hearing but Merlin didn't even have the chance to defend himself.


    Hmm I thought that but Gwen probably just ordered him to be taken straight to the dungeons to be executed (or something) which a monarch could do... (Uther did that that back when didn't he?) but again wouldn't the others think that was out of character? Probably more too do with time available though to be honest... I felt that perhaps there would not have been any time to put in a scene with one of the knights questioning Gwen's decision but a bit later they seemed to drag some scenes out so much that I felt they could have slipped a short 30 second to 1 minute scene in...
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  • Avatar of BrightlyLit

    BrightlyLit

    [6]Nov 17, 2012
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    First, let me say as most know, I'm a Gwen fan. Favorite character of the show. So there was a sense where I was horrified to see her doing these awful things. The episode was a lot more dramatic than the one last season when Merlin was trying to kill Arthur. The way that one was done was so light and humorous with Gwen and Gaius playing the heroes and saving Arthur on a couple of occasions. This was a lot more dramatic, the only humor being our old friend showing up in the end. But on the other hand, I was happy to see Guinevere being given something meaty. Something other than the same old same old. I don't think I can find words to express my feelings for the performance by Angel. She played the duplicity so beautifully, and even the evil smirking was not overdone. As we know from Morgana and Aggie, Merlin directors insist on some smirking apparently. Her moments switching from the loving wife to the cold blooded killer were done to perfection IMO. I'm even loving the dynamic between her and Merlin. As I watched Angel and Colin playing the unfolding realization that the other was a force to be reckoned with, I sat amazed and proud of these two young people I've watched develop into the heavy duty actors that I'm sorry to say, deserve more sophisticated writing. The closing scene was so cool. Bravo.


    The Arwen scenes were spot on. Just as they should be under the circumstances. The most we've seen of the domestic couple in their chambers, intimate and loving, the wife affectionate, warm, and sweet; behind the back, cold, hateful, and vindictive. I hate to say it, but I liked it. I was glad to see the warm Bradley/Angel chemistry again, even if what was real was not what was being portrayed on her part, but then it was what we've wanted to see, if that makes sense. Again, played by these two fine actors so well.


    Lovely scene when Merlin cured him. So typical of what you'd expect from the two, accurately portraying their closeness. Their friendship is true and real and thankfully Arthur is coming to see it for what it is.


    I'm glad that Merlin and Gaius came to a realization of what is going on with her before the episode was over so now they just have to figure out what to do about it. Next week will hopefully be them keeping a check on her or something like that while they figure it out. Whatever goes on, here's hoping they resolve this thing in a suitable way. I don't like her having to deal with what she's done which would be super difficult for her so I don't know how the writers are going to do that. Since they never resolved the betrayal enchantment for her, I hope they will do her character well with this one. Maybe some of it will be blocked from her mind or something? Also, I wonder how much Arthur is going to know of this; will Gaius and Merlin keep some of it from him or will he know the whole truth? Did he ever know the whole truth about Merlin's assassination attempts? I can't remember. I'll be eagerly awaiting how they deal with evil!Gwen the rest of the series.

    Edited on 11/17/2012 6:31pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [7]Nov 17, 2012
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    trek wrote:
    boom-moo wrote:
    trek wrote:

    I would have liked to see someone else stand up to Merlin though other than Gaius - the knights???

    Me too. Tyr got a hearing but Merlin didn't even have the chance to defend himself.

    Hmm I thought that but Gwen probably just ordered him to be taken straight to the dungeons to be executed (or something) which a monarch could do...
    Yeah, they took advantage of the fact that Arthur wasn't around to be able to write Gwen as giving full authority on the matter..

    BrightlyLit wrote:

    Also, I wonder how much Arthur is going to know of this; will Gaius and Merlin keep some of it from him or will he know the whole truth? Did he ever know the whole truth about Merlin's assassination attempts? I can't remember.

    I don't think that he did although Merlin wasn't as close to kill him so I guess that in this case he should want to know .
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  • Avatar of XyFan

    XyFan

    [8]Nov 17, 2012
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    Merlin has gotten really smart.. and serious. I miss his laugh, although its nice to see the show bit differently. I didn't find that dress joke funny. BUT! This show has now some kind of nifty feeling. and i find it very new and interesting. And im so eager to see next episode.

    trek wrote:
    . Gotta agree with Conner91 that Merlin has been annoying me too this season (forgetting his goals!!) but you have to fell some sympathy for him after this episode...


    I dont think he has forgotten them. Although yes they don't mention any or move towards Merlin's goal but it is quite hard to make Arthur like and accept magic if he only sees it evil / bad.



    Oh and what i see really weird but i can guess.. im quite sure Merlin wont tell Arthur about the dress piece in next episode.. right? Although it SHOULD be LOGICAL to do so. Just that it has never happened that they bring last episode story parts to next episode. Or do i only think that?

    Edited on 11/17/2012 4:07pm
    Edited 4 total times.
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    PenguinSuzie

    [9]Nov 17, 2012
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    It was really good


    Poor Sam Tyr!


    I feel a little sorry for the cook. I still loved Dragoon he was particularly hilarious to me. Merlin just seemed to be having so much fun. We don't really see enough of that anymore, he's always so sad. Though I'm not sure why Merlin didn't use him to save Arthur and avoid getting caught (I suppose he didn't want anyone to know he was near or think he'd poisoned the king or anything).


    I'm enjoying crazy Gwen more than I thought I would.


    I hope Arthur doesn't execute that shopkeeper. It's horrible to sell that to anyone (especially someone you suspect of being an enemy) but not everyone can be as rich as Arthur, got to eat too.


    I was really disappointed how easily the knights turned on Arthur (lots of evidence my ass). Also that no one came to visit him, I wish we'd see a little bit of consequences for that with his relationship with them but I'm sure this will be the end of it. I guess I'll just have to be angry for him. I


    'm not quite sure how Merlin managed to use that power to save Arthur as when he did something similar to Morgana it was because Kilgharrah had given him a one off spell/power to use just once. I like seeing more powerful magic used by Merlin though. I guess he's grown in powers, or been learning from Kilgharrah, actually I like that idea, it's now my head canon.


    I do like how automatically suspicious Merlin is of absolutely anything, sad though it is. It's a survival skill he needs to be able to work everything out, put the clues together and connect all the dots.

    Edited on 11/17/2012 3:46pm
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [10]Nov 17, 2012
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    XyFan wrote:

    Just that it has never happened that they bring last episode story parts to next episode. Or do i only think that?

    Lol well TPTB aren't too big on continuity but sometimes they give us nice surprises


    PenguinSuzie wrote:

    Though I'm not sure why Merlin didn't use him to save Arthur and avoid getting caught (I suppose he didn't want anyone to know he was near or think he'd poisoned the king or anything)

    You mean why Emrys didn't save Arthur? Well, I can't imagine that Arthur would be too happy to have the man whom he thinks killed his father around. Also turning into Emrys is pretty exhausting for Merlin, so maybe he required all of his strength and mental ability to pull the healing magic successfully.
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  • Avatar of BrightlyLit

    BrightlyLit

    [11]Nov 17, 2012
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:


    I do like how automatically suspicious Merlin is of absolutely anything, sad though it is. It's a survival skill he needs to be able to work everything out, put the clues together and connect all the dots.



    I'm so glad he's on the trail because I'm still a bit sour at him for 4x09. He should have had more suspicions of Gwen acting out of character in that one, especially since he knew Lancelot was a shade and that Morgana was involved.



    boom-moo wrote:


    I don't think that he did although Merlin wasn't as close to kill him so I guess that in this case he should want to know .


    I rather think he'd want to know in both cases but I'm still holding hope he won't know in this one either. I also hope that some of this can be somehow blocked out of Gwen's mind, because I just can't see her living with herself when it's over if she's aware of what she's done. She almost KILLED him. He'd have been dead if it weren't for Merlin having magic. He also would have been dead in 4x06 if he'd eaten Merlin's lunch instead of Gwen's. The Servant to Two Masters was done in a lighter mood, but on two occasions Arthur would have been dead if Gwen and Gaius hadn't intervened so I hope they do the same here and not tell him to what extent his wife was abused by Morgana. It would be super hard for both of them IMO. I can't wait to see what route they take in resolving this. I just think it would be awful if Gwen had to live with this the rest of her life. Morgana has sunk to the bottom.

    Edited on 11/17/2012 5:06pm
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    boom-moo

    [12]Nov 18, 2012
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    Yeah, I think he'd want to know in both cases too but my poor choice of words before was meant to say that in this case, it is more likely that Arthur would ask since he is aware that he was at the brink of death whereas in 4x06 he wasn't aware that his life was being threatened once and again.

    If Gwen is to have any notion of what she has done under the enchantment she is likely to have a major breakdown. I tend to think that the more they (Arthur and Gwen) know about the real extent and possible consequences of Morgana's actions the more prepared they'd be to recognize/fight them in future. However, that hasn't worked that way in the past.
    Edited on 11/18/2012 4:55am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of trek

    trek

    [13]Nov 18, 2012
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    Anyone else getting slightly irritated by the 'it's the law excuse?' You can't help that it is going to gain Arthur more enemies later when people are executed too quickly for something they probably did not do... Even so 'it's the law' - hang on a minute they can CHANGE the law? Again more reasons Merlin can't reveal his magic yet :sigh:

    Edited on 11/18/2012 4:31am
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [14]Nov 18, 2012
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    Episode 5x07 magic and spells:
    -Merlin unarms a random bandit.
    -Morgana makes Gwaine fall off his horse.
    -Morgana transforms into and old woman.
    -Merlin turns into Emrys using an ageing potion.
    -Emrys knocks the cook out with a flying saucepan.
    -Emrys turns back into Merlin using a potion.
    -Merlin makes a chandelier loose on the wall using magic.
    -Merlin blows all the torches off using a spell.
    -Merlin heals Arthur using a spell.
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  • Avatar of illegalferret

    illegalferret

    [15]Nov 18, 2012
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    Not my favourite episode so far this year, but i still enjoyed epi 7 There was a certain familiarity to it, Merlin uncovering a traitor, someone sneaking in and out of the castle, the odd evil smirk, Merlin locked up etc. yet despite all of that it was still enjoyable, more old school Merlin than the darker episodes of the last few weeks.


    Guinevere as the villain is good, she's more subtle than Morgana, far less evil smirks and she uses the fact everyone still loves her to act concerned, wise and believable. The links between Morgana and Guinevere and Morgause and Morgana are very obvious but seeing as Morgana is manipulating Guinevere that's kind of a nice touch. The plans worked last time why not use them again (old lady in market for example).


    It was nice how Arthur gave Tyr a fair trial and gave him several opportunities to confess or give up his accomplice and how he got Merlin out of prison asap. This episode showed Arthur off at his best and worst, a good friend and a fair king but blind to the most obvious things To be honest though he's never been the sharpest crayon in the box! I'm glad Gaius did some more in this episode, their plan to get Merlin out of the cells was a good one (made better because for once they remembered he had to go back in!)


    The knights backing the Queen was in keeping with the previous episode and as for throwing Merlin in jail everything was happening the middle of the night so you can't really blame them for not holding a trial whilst the king lay dying.


    I'll be interested to see where they take this evil Guinevere thing, we can't have too many episodes like otherwise it feel like watching series 3 just with different characters playing the same roles.

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    PenguinSuzie

    [16]Nov 18, 2012
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    boom-moo wrote:
    You mean why Emrys didn't save Arthur? Well, I can't imagine that Arthur would be too happy to have the man whom he thinks killed his father around. Also turning into Emrys is pretty exhausting for Merlin, so maybe he required all of his strength and mental ability to pull the healing magic successfully.
    Gaius did tell Arthur that it wasn't Dragoon that was responsible for Uther's death, but I seriously doubt he'd react well to seeing him. Pretending to be Dragoon would mean he could escape the knights easily without being caught as Merlin, also Arthur wouldn't know who saved him anyway and Merlin could have always changed back once he got to Arthur's room. I think the reason he never stayed Dragoon longer to get to Arthur's room was to avoid anyone who'd recognize the character realizing he was in Camelot as they'd alert Arthur and probably try and look for the man.
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  • Avatar of trek

    trek

    [17]Nov 18, 2012
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    boom-moo wrote:
    You mean why Emrys didn't save Arthur? Well, I can't imagine that Arthur would be too happy to have the man whom he thinks killed his father around. Also turning into Emrys is pretty exhausting for Merlin, so maybe he required all of his strength and mental ability to pull the healing magic successfully.
    Gaius did tell Arthur that it wasn't Dragoon that was responsible for Uther's death, but I seriously doubt he'd react well to seeing him. Pretending to be Dragoon would mean he could escape the knights easily without being caught as Merlin, also Arthur wouldn't know who saved him anyway and Merlin could have always changed back once he got to Arthur's room. I think the reason he never stayed Dragoon longer to get to Arthur's room was to avoid anyone who'd recognize the character realizing he was in Camelot as they'd alert Arthur and probably try and look for the man.


    It would probably have been pointless to have Emrys save Arthur because he wouldn't have known it was him... Plus the writers probably felt we didn't need any more 'running around the castle' scenes...
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    allenleonardo

    [18]Nov 18, 2012
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    I liked this episode, it was not one of my favourites but still okay.


    Gwens acting skills are quite good. But still not good enough to fool Merlin . I really love that its always him who gets suspicious first. Arthur would be soo death without him. And he still will not listen to him. No wonder that Arthur will be his own bane.


    I felt sorry for Tyr =( he was so loyal to Arthur and served him since he was a boy. I was sad that he was killed. Its kind of annoying how they only suspected him. Its not like another person could break into the stable or have a thread at home.


    Sadly I found the overall plot a little boring. A lot of it reminded me of "A servant of two masters" or the agravaine plot. I cant believe that Arthur is not the least bit suspicious about Gwen. She was the last one he saw before he got poisoned and was also there when he was attacked in the forest. And its strange how nobody was surprised when she arrested Merlin. Its so out of character. And nobody seemed to be suspicious that she found the one who sold the poison. O.o


    (And this doesnt solve the problem that they still dont know who gave him the poison since there was no Morgana near him so the real killer would still be free)


    I was quite surprised that they let Gwen kill someone. (Who was innocent) Even Merlin didnt hurt anyone (other than the pigs). To see her killing Tyr was--> O_O


    And I love Dragoon. He cracks me up every time he shows up. It would be nice if Merlin could say all of this without the disguise. (I still love him more as his younger self but his sayings as an old man are the best xD) And seeing Merlin fooling all of the knights is pure gold. They deserve it for not helping him.

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    boom-moo

    [19]Nov 18, 2012
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    Episode 5x07 RIP list:
    -Two random bandits killed by Arthur.
    -Tyr, murdered by (enchanted) Gwen.

    Episode 5x07 Lives Saved list:
    -Merlin saves Arthur’s life with his magic after he’s been poisoned by (enchanted) Gwen.

    Dungeon time:
    -Tyr.
    -Merlin.
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    dpebbleson

    [20]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 11/06/09
    • level: 23
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    • posts: 5,642
    I liked this episode. The plot is not new, of course, but Guinevere was very convincing, and she indeed did some serious damage, including killing the servant. And she managed to get unnoticed. She was indeed like some black widow, playing all sweet and innocent.

    Dragoon was a nice touch, he is always interesting, though the whole plot with dragging all the guards out of Arthur's room was a bit too complicated...

    I guess 'shattered' is to put it mildly how Guinevere will react when she 'finds out' what she has done.

    All in all I think the episode was well directed. Mordred is still not very prominent; somehow Elyan's departure isn't much felt; and Sir Leon has been given more authority and seriousness.

    There weren't any premonitory dreams in this one. Morgana didn't have Smirks of Doom, but Guinevere did. She had two. Once when talking to Gaius on the steps inside the castle; and the other when speaking with Sir Leon about ruling Camelot after Arthur. Could these count as Morgana's influence? hehe.
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