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BBC (ended 2012)

Episode 5x13 'The Diamond Of The Day Part 2' discussion thread

  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [61]Dec 25, 2012
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    mog253 wrote:

    Merlin only told two people he would be at the Crystal Cave. Making Gaius, Gwine and Eira the only ones who knew.

    Thank you!

    PenguinSuzie wrote:

    I sort of wasn't sure if Merlin was planning on setting that boat on fire as that's the impression I gave or if he was just sending it across.

    No, I don’t think that he intended to set it on fire, Arthur is to rise again after all. I like it that he hesitated like he did in Freya’s case. It is always really hard to part with someone you love.

    Ashleighnikiann wrote:

    Too much about the ending is left up to us to imagine, and that's why I don't like the ending.

    I think that TPTB tried to please the audience giving everyone a chance to imagine the story going as they fancy better, but I would have preferred having their view even if it wouldn’t have suited my wishes.

    allenleonardo wrote:

    And about dragons..really in the end Aithusas existence was quite bad for Merlin. She was on Morganas side, saved her life at the end of season 4 and forged the sword that killed Arthur...without her, there would not be a second Excalibur and Arthur could have been saved from a normal weapon. So why did the great Dragon say that Aithusa is good for Albion and for Merlin? I wish they would have done the Dragon storyline better.

    Me too, plus not all storylines (like Aithusa’s) are wrapped up as the cast claimed.

    allenleonardo wrote:

    >Little question: was the hand that took Excalibur Freya`s? I thought so at the beginning but I read on other forums that it was Arthurs hand? O.o

    I think it’s definitely Freya
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    adamw06

    [62]Dec 25, 2012
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    Really disappointed with the finale overall. The first five minutes were actually really great... then they killed Mordred. For me, it was a little too quick and I hated how easily Morgana's army was defeated, I was ready to see a full on war then it ends up just being barely even five minutes long!

    Loved when Gwaine died, he was just annoying and I never got the love for him and I loved watching Morgana torture him, I love when she was truly evil, there were times when it would just be so good to see such evil (sounds odd but there you go).

    Morgana's death was lame. I hated it, it was far too quick and for such a major character to die like that really annoyed me. I didn't particularly like how different they made her from how she was originally but I always figured she'd at least get some redemption in the end, but no, they just gave her a crappy 3 second death that would be barely fitting for a guest character.

    The quick time jump at the end was pointless too, the last shot should have been the throne room scene with everyone shouting "long live the Queen!" to Gwen.

    Edited on 12/25/2012 2:22pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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    boom-moo

    [63]Dec 25, 2012
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    Tons of magic in this one!

    Episode 5x13 magic and spells:
    -Morgana blasts several knights of Camelot away using her mind.
    -(Old) Merlin blasts away a lot of Saxons (using a staff).
    -(Old) Merlin blasts away a lot of Saxons (using a staff).
    -(Old) Merlin blasts Morgana away (using a staff).
    -(Old) Merlin blasts away a lot of Saxons (using a staff).
    -(Old) Merlin stops Aithusa from attacking Arthur and his men using his dragonlord talk.
    -Merlin conjures up a flying dragon made of a fire sparks using a spell.
    -Morgana chokes one of the Saxons using her mind.
    -Merlin makes smoke rise in the forest using his mind.
    -Merlin blasts two Saxons away using his mind.
    -Merlin lights a fire using his mind.
    -Morgana blasts Percival and Gwaine away using her mind.
    -Merlin uses his mind’s eye to see the path ahead.
    -Morgana uses the Nathair serpent on Gwaine.
    -Merlin covers their horse’s track by covering them with fallen leaves using a spell.
    -Merlin makes some branches and shrubbery shake using his mind.
    -Morgana blasts Merlin away using her mind.
    -Merlin summons the Great Dragon using his dragonlord talk.
    -Freya raises an arm from the lake of Avalon and catches Excalibur.
    -Merlin makes the boat in which Arthur rests drift inside the lake of Avalon using a spell.
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    allenleonardo

    [64]Dec 25, 2012
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    boom-moo wrote:


    I think that TPTB tried to please the audience giving everyone a chance to imagine the story going as they fancy better, but I would have preferred having their view even if it wouldn't have suited my wishes.


    And this is why I dont like the ending and probably never will. I can accept that they killed Arthur so that it will end like the Arthurian legend (even if the real legend never really happened anyway in the show) but to end it with a truck (which made me jump thanks to it suddeness ) and OldMerlin walking without giving much information was really bad (at least for me) If they only wanted it to end it in the future than they could have shown us Old Merlin telling the tale to children, who ask him questions how it goes on and he could answer them. And afterwards going towards the gate turning young again and we see him waiting for Arthur(or to have a more "happy" ending : turning around, smiling and saying "welcome back", without us really seeing Arthur)


    I just cant see the need for Arthur in our modern world. He was only a young king who still needed to learn a lot when he died and its not like he would have so much information about this time. And there is simple no need for him. If the writers had chosen maybe 200 or 300 hundred years after his death, to show Merlin still waiting than I could believe that he would be needed but not in our time.


    I am also curious if Merlin really walked and waited all these years for Arthur or if he was asleep in the crystal cave for most of the time (like the one in the legend does) and only woke up some time ago. (And thanks to the crystal knowing about the outside world) Which could be a sign that Arthur will be back soon.


    Sadly we will probably never really know what happened.


    boom-moo wrote:
    I think it's definitely Freya


    Ah thanks =) I was just so unsure after reading about it more than once and I cant remember if the arm looked more male or female xD.

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    Wonder_

    [65]Dec 25, 2012
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    Yeah I was affected by the login issue as well. D:


    Like everyone else I was disappointed about Arthur dying, the lack of Golden Age, and the last scene, but I kind of knew it was happening from the spoilers so I was really pleased with everything else in this episode. Arthur's reaction and his change to acceptance was perfect. I loved that he acknowledged Merlin and all those things we've been waiting for. Gwen figuring it out was good, too.


    Personally, I find the last scene to actually have made the story a lot more hopeless than hopeful, especially with that depressed Merlin walking around...wish they'd simply left it out.

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    boom-moo

    [66]Dec 25, 2012
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    What Arthur calls Merlin:
    -Ridiculous, not an idiot, liar (implied).

    What Merlin calls Arthur:
    -Generous, great King.
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    allenleonardo

    [67]Dec 25, 2012
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    Wonder_ wrote:


    Yeah I was affected by the login issue as well. D:


    Like everyone else I was disappointed about Arthur dying, the lack of Golden Age, and the last scene, but I kind of knew it was happening from the spoilers so I was really pleased with everything else in this episode. Arthur's reaction and his change to acceptance was perfect. I loved that he acknowledged Merlin and all those things we've been waiting for. Gwen figuring it out was good, too.


    Personally, I find the last scene to actually have made the story a lot more hopeless than hopeful, especially with that depressed Merlin walking around...wish they'd simply left it out.



    And Gwen even figured it out without Merlin telling her right in her face Maybe the knowledge from the spoilers was also the reason why I didnt even cry But yeah Arthurs acceptance of Merlin and his magic was really well done sad that neither had really time to live with this knowledge.


    After I read your last sentence I began to see it as more hopeless too In the end it means, even after all what happened in history it was not Arthurs time so what horrible things have to happen to make him come back? And he died, so how can he even come back? The balance of the world will be destroyed (with all the a death for a life thing) and no other person really came back after dieing (Balinor was only some kind of ghost too) Maybe the great dragon lied so that Merlin will feel better and he will never come back. I mean he told Merlin before that he reached his dream and did not fail which is not really true (for me ) Or they just did the scene because they remembered that there are still children watching and hoped that this will make them happy.


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    boom-moo

    [68]Dec 25, 2012
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    allenleonardo wrote:

    And he died, so how can he even come back? The balance of the world will be destroyed (with all the a death for a life thing) and no other person really came back after dieing

    I guess we are to understand that he isn't really dead but that the Sidhe will work their magic and keep him in a deep slumber in Avalon for whenever Arthur is to rise again.
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    dpebbleson

    [69]Dec 25, 2012
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    Finally I get to comment upon this episode, because tv.com has been very ruthless today.

    I will start with positive stuff. - The episode was excellently directed, I enjoyed all the scenes, especially the forest ones. Merlin and Arthur in the forest reminded me of 'The Last Dragonlord', it had a similar feel. And especially when they reach the clearing through a door made by surrounding branches and tree trunks.

    - Music was wonderful as well

    - The acting was superb, especially on B.J.'s side. I think some found the scene of Arthur's last moments maybe a bit too emotional, but when you think of it, it's a dying person, who wants to end life by his friend.

    - I liked the scene with Morgana at Mordred's grave, at least it showed the one part of Morgana still capable of loving.

    One question: how come Morgana cannot be killed by an ordinary blade as a high priestess? How was Morgause then killed by hitting the wall with her head?

    All in all the episode was strong one, on its own; within the context of the previous two seasons, it is a fitting conclusion, I suppose.

    But there's something very false about it, and that is the notion that it concludes the five-year-old story line. In my humble opinion, it doesn't. The first three season promise us a golden age, in which magic is free again, and they all lead us into thinking that Arthur will be the one who would legalize magic, what with being more tolerant, being born of magic himself; Merlin keeps uttering the mantra that 'it shall come, it shall come, I believe in him'.

    I believe the main problem for the TPTB was Anthony Head's leaving the show. Hence the story was sped up to Arthur becoming a king, thus we had a golden age in between seasons. For the first three season most of the talk was about Merlin being an optimistic show, while the last two seasons have seen giving up on comic episode of the season, and talk was redirected to 'getting darker and darker'. I think it simplified the show. They turned to preparing a truly dark and pessimistic ending, and thus had to make Morgana more evil than ever, to remove her from all friends, and to make her unable for repentance. On the other hand they had postponed the magic recognition further, as it served to bring Morgana a cause to fight. Why would she fight if magic were legalized?

    Hence I say this finale is actually quite good, but for me it's finale for seasons 4 and 5 of the show. As a finale for the entire show, it is quite inadequate. We haven't really seen the Golden Age of Camelot. We were told it was there in blossom, but since it wasn't on screen, it couldn't be counterbalanced with the darker tone. The show grew darker, but there was little prosperity shown except proclamations. The pessimism of these two seasons has a natural conclusion in Arthur's death. But it looks unnatural when attached to the first three seasons, which were promising something else.

    I don't think it was necessary for Arthur to die. Sure, it was poignant, it made the ending "Art", but was that really true to the show. It feels like TPTB were trying to create nice Saturday fun, and then in the end they took Ancient Greek Tragedy as their inspiration. It would seem like all the banter, all the funny episodes, all the optimism, all the struggle to build up a friendship, ended in a death that was tragic on many levels. When Arthur saw the real Merlin, it was too late; he married a servant, but had no offspring; he found his sister who killed him.

    TPTB said it was 'the fact it failed' that led them into this direction, meaning of course the Arcadian project of Camelot. But where exactly in the show it worked? Because it was off screen, and of little value when assessing the show. It is futile to discuss what we didn't see. Arthur did grow as a person, but even one king is not a sign of a golden age.

    I quite like the way the Reveal was handled, but in the end it served no purpose. It was too late, yet another pessimistic overtone. The episode was utter gloom. I fail to see what is optimistic about it. Old Merlin walking in the street dressed in modern clothes, while a truck passes by him, and we see the Isle of Avalon totally demystified. Plus the show makes a curious jump from a time of magic, which is unhistorical time, to historical time of the 21st century. I think this is some sort of misunderstanding on their part. Now they made all those anachronism debates legitimate. While the show was in time of myth, there wasn't worry, as myth doesn't care about Bavaria cans or spectacles. But now it would seem that in history we had a period of magic, that with Arthur's death led to United Albion, which in turn led to the disenchanted world he have today. What were they trying say with that scene? That the time of wars, economic crisis, is the time that needs Arthur to return? And yet it implicitly states that Merlin, in the end failed. He is living in a world bereft of magic; he is without his friends; he is now truly old, and doesn't even look at Avalon Isle, as if he weren't expecting anything to come from that side.

    It is a world that watches 'Merlin' at home and laughs at its ideals, and suddenly realizes Merlin is still there, and realizes that its crushed ideals are today's society which has gone from enchanted forests to the polluted road what with lorries and motorized boats cruising around the Isle of Avalon (itself probably used for making barbecue parties or whatever). TPTB took some combination of chivalric romance and fairy tale, robbed it of happy ending, and in the end ironized it to the fullest. These stories work with happy endings. The viewers/readers are already so identified with the characters that even the end of the show is some sort of a mini death for them. The excitement of the stories is naturally counterbalanced with the sadness of the story being told. They could have closed the show with 'And they all lived happily ever after' and the audience would still be said. And the audience needn't have been reminded that they live in a desacralized modern world without magic and dragons. They are so well aware of it, once they look through the window. They don't need lorry on the street and old, rugged, moody Merlin with plastic bottle in his bag. With the last scene, 'Merlin' is no longer an escape into a better world, if dangerous; the modern world is part of it. There is no hope in imagination and fantasy, whatever we do, it leads us into this dreadful industrialized overpopulated polluted globalized utilitarian and ultrapragmatic world that shuns God and gods, fantastic creatures, that shuns living species that massively disappear, that is torn by wars every year. Not only is Camelot a failure, but it is a prototype of a failure of today's world. Because of that, the world of myth and magic and legend loses its idealistic capacity. Good does not win in real life, we get it. But it doesn't win in imaginary world, in fairy tale. And that is utter pessimism, a snake that bites its own tail.

    This being envisioned as a prequel (as far as I remember the earlier interviews), it was superfluous to show Arthur dying, or even Morgana or Mordred. Because of its 'prequel' status, the show always had nice touch of irony. We always knew what the characters would become, and the TPTB played with this rather successfully. We knew Morgana would turn to be a witch, and Mordred Arthur's killer, and Merlin Arthur's advisor. And Guinevere Arthur's wife. And guess what? We saw Morgana turn into a witch, and Mordred into a king-killer, and Guinevere into a queen, but we never saw Merlin turn into the advisor of legends. It's their own take of course, but that still does not excuse this complete darkness, that of course leaves an impression of something 'significant' in the story, full of impact, of pathos, of tragedy, imbued with meaning on the transience of life, and the futility of all effort, that does not have its counterpart in something good that was achieved. Arthur's death is not so much dark and undesirable because it's a 'family show', but because it simply is a bad solution for the show's ending. It is a great twist, something rather unexpected and all, but in itself does not quite fit.

    It's sad that such a good and strong episode as this had to be the last one. At least the paradox should serve TPTB well: the strongest they had was used for the weakest purpose.

    Utter gloom.
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    boom-moo

    [70]Dec 25, 2012
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    'I have faith Arthur makes a great king' statements:
    -Merlin: ‘Without you, Camelot's nothing’.
    -Merlin: ‘There will never be another like you, Arthur’.
    -Merlin: ‘Some men are born to plough fields, some live to be great Physicians, others to be great kings. Me, I was born to serve you, Arthur. And I'm proud of that. And I wouldn't change a thing’.
    -The Great Dragon: ‘Arthur is not just a king, he is the Once and Future King. Take heart, for when Albion's need is greatest, Arthur will rise again’.
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    Eliza79

    [71]Dec 25, 2012
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    boom-moo wrote:


    >Little question: was the hand that took Excalibur Freya`s? I thought so at the beginning but I read on other forums that it was Arthurs hand? O.o


    ***


    I think it's definitely Freya



    I'm reading too that the hand in the lake was Arthur's, for example here:


    http://brolininthetardis.tumblr.com/post/38816054155/oddthingsinthedark-for-more-speculation-you-can


    what do you think now, seeing the pics? O_o I can't tell if this could be true or not.


    Edited on 12/25/2012 6:51pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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    boom-moo

    [72]Dec 25, 2012
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    Alice Troughton has confirmed that it is not Arthur's hand via twitter: "that was the lady of the lake's hand (Freya). In theory. In actuality it was a male diver."
    Edited on 12/25/2012 7:01pm
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    Eliza79

    [73]Dec 25, 2012
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    Ahhh thank you a male diver lol, that's why the pic is confusing!

    Edited on 12/25/2012 8:05pm
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    boom-moo

    [74]Dec 25, 2012
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    You are welcome

    Dungeon time:
    -Eira.
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    dpebbleson

    [75]Dec 26, 2012
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    And yeah, I forgot: no premonitory dreams and no Smirks of Doom.
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    allenleonardo

    [76]Dec 26, 2012
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    Arthur's death is not so much dark and undesirable because it's a 'family show', but because it simply is a bad solution for the show's ending. It is a great twist, something rather unexpected and all, but in itself does not quite fit. It's sad that such a good and strong episode as this had to be the last one. At least the paradox should serve TPTB well: the strongest they had was used for the weakest purpose. Utter gloom.


    Thank you for this great post and its nice to know that there are others who are feeling that the ending is not good for the whole show.


    Sadly Arthur dieing was no great twist for me the writers always told us that they liked the ending of the legende because it failed, so I thought that they will probably kill him (and hoped that they dont ;D) This ending would have been better at the end of a sixt or even seventh season after watching at least one season of Golden Age and Merlin as Arthurs advisor. Than they could have gone some years in the future to end it with an older King Arthur who than died at the hand of Mordred. But to fit it with the first 3 seasons the best end (for me) would have been Arthur and Gwens wedding with Merlin as their court sorcerer. The ending with his death could have been left to our imagination.


    dpebbleson wrote:
    But now it would seem that in history we had a period of magic, that with Arthur's death led to United Albion, which in turn led to the disenchanted world he have today. What were they trying say with that scene? That the time of wars, economic crisis, is the time that needs Arthur to return? And yet it implicitly states that Merlin, in the end failed. He is living in a world bereft of magic; he is without his friends; he is now truly old, and doesn't even look at Avalon Isle, as if he weren't expecting anything to come from that side.


    Exactly. We have no other information that this is some kind of parallel world where some things never happened, so we have to believe that Arthur after two world wars and all the other historical fights and problems never came back so when will be the right time? What must happen in the world? Maybe thats why Merlin never looked at Avalon because deep down he knows that Arthur wont come back? They always showed us a different world where magical creatures still roamed the country and than suddenly everything is modern. Maybe the magic users live in a secrect society (like Harry Potter ) but this would still show that Merlin failed.



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    boom-moo

    [77]Dec 26, 2012
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    Thanks DaNko

    Morgana's premonitory dreams:
    -None.

    Morgana's smirks of doom:
    -None.

    I don't know if TPTB were forced to change their plan for this or that reason but still they could have wrapped up the show very differently if they would have wished so. Series 5 has very few storylines overall and I think that 1 of the "enchated Gwen storyline" episodes could have been spared (5x08 The Hollow Queen, for example, as it didn't move the story forward at all and even 5x10 The Kindness of Strangers) to make room for a very different double parter finale to fit in the reveal, recognition for Merlin, Albion and prosperity, etc.

    But seeing as they stuck to their idea I'm quite happy with the way the reveal was handled as I was of the opinion that I'd rather not have a reveal at all than having a rushed last minute one.
    Edited on 12/26/2012 2:19am
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    dpebbleson

    [78]Dec 26, 2012
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    @allenleonardo: Thank you! I didn't want to sound like a hater, because I like this show. In fact I like its finale, I just don't like the overall message it conveys, which is too dark. I don't think happy ending would have been less poignant or artistic or whatever, but of course, TPTB have right to do whatever they want with their own show. I remember I was very sad when I finished reading LotR, and that's a book in which only one main character dies. I guess the show is a reflection of our age, of crushed ideals and vanquished spirituality. Maybe they were truer to reality, and maybe happy ending would have been naive. Still, times have always been hard in one way or the other...

    boom-moo wrote:

    I don't know if TPTB were forced to change their plan for this or that reason but still they could have wrapped up the show very differently if they would have wished so. Series 5 has very few storylines overall and I think that 1 of the "enchated Gwen storyline" episodes could have been spared (5x08 The Hollow Queen, for example, as it didn't move the story forward at all and even 5x10 The Kindness of Strangers) to make room for a very different double parter finale to fit in the reveal, recognition for Merlin, Albion and prosperity, etc.

    But seeing as they stuck to their idea I'm quite happy with the way the reveal was handled as I was of the opinion that I'd rather not have a reveal at all than having a rushed last minute one.


    Yeah, most of the episodes were Morgana's plans to kill Arthur, which kind of killed diversity. At the same time, pretty much all episodes were shot rather well, had good acting, scripts were improved, it was all more mature, special effects weren't cheesy, music was good. It's always paradoxical to me, everything is better and then nothing is so much better. I think they were definitely too proud.

    And even 'enchanted Guinevere' storyline was rushed in its last minutes. It was disproportional how much time was given to Evil Guinevere, and how little to 'purging' her from evil.

    I liked the way the Reveal was handled, it was natural, Arthur had to rely on Merlin, hence he was simply forced to see the good side of magic, and to overcome his initial shock. If he were in better health, I guess the reaction would have been more drastic, but this way he was simply forced to go with the flow.
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    boom-moo

    [79]Dec 26, 2012
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    Yes, less time should have been devoted to Gwen's enchantment and more to its aftermath. we don't even know if she has any memory of what she was forced to do and how she coped with it. Anyway, back to the episode at hand...

    dpebbleson wrote:
    I liked the way the Reveal was handled, it was natural, Arthur had to rely on Merlin, hence he was simply forced to see the good side of magic, and to overcome his initial shock. If he were in better health, I guess the reaction would have been more drastic, but this way he was simply forced to go with the flow.
    I think that this was very clever of them. Shouldn't Arthur have been wounded, he would have surely put some distance and needed more time to come to terms with it. This way, having to necessarily rely on Melin, the rushed flow of events concerning the reveal fit in nicely. I'm glad that save a little push from Gaius, he came to terms with it on his own. If he would have learnt about it in different circumstances, he might have been tried to be persuaded one way or another by those around him.
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    morinl

    [80]Dec 26, 2012
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    Bad ending. This wasa show I loved so much, but the ending ruined it for me. Arthur dies, Merlin's a failure and he goes off to be alone. The dragon should have saved Arthur. Arthur and Merlin should have returned to Camelot together. The writers ending was garbage

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