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BBC (ended 2012)

The Chambers of Science (Gaius Discussion Thread)

  • Avatar of illegalferret

    illegalferret

    [1]Sep 4, 2010
    • member since: 05/16/07
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    As we only have 1 weekof hiatus ahead, discussing on our favourite characters / ships sounds like a great idea to deal with the withdrawal. After having rewatched all the episodes it'll be interesting to see the characters / ships progressions with the perspective of two whole seasons behind, plus with the new series on the way we can continue to add to these threads.


    This thread is only for discussions onGauis/Richard Wilson

    Any comments regarding him are welcome as long as you remain respectful of "Merlin" and its fans.

    Spoilers are forbidden


    Gaius thread title suggestions wrote:
    Gaius' Medical Practice.


    Gaius MD.


    The Chambers of Science.


    Science For Ever (and a Day).


    Gaius' Treatises.


    Dr. Gaius.


    Gaius, PhD.


    Mentor No. 1


    First we are going to vote for a title for this thread.Anyone is welcome to vote.

    Rules for voting are as follows:

    1. You can vote for two names - first choice gets 2 points and the second choice 1 point.

    2. If by Wednesday (Sept 1) there is an overall winner, then the thread title will change.

    3. If by Wednesday there is no overall winner, a second round will open. I will choose two titles on which to vote. You will only have one vote worth ONE POINT.


    Edited on 09/08/2010 2:27am
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    boom-moo

    [2]Sep 4, 2010
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    Thanks Sarah Here are my votes:

    Gaius thread title suggestions wrote:
    Gaius' Medical Practice.
    Gaius MD 2.
    The Chambers of Science1.
    Science For Ever (and a Day).
    Gaius' Treatises.
    Dr. Gaius.
    Gaius, PhD.
    Mentor No. 1
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    dpebbleson

    [3]Sep 4, 2010
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    My votes:


    Dr. Gaius - 2 points


    The Chambers of Science - 1 point


    Therefore:


    Gaius thread title suggestions wrote:


    Gaius' Medical Practice.


    Gaius MD - 2 points


    The Chambers of Science - 2 points


    Science For Ever (and a Day).


    Gaius' Treatises.


    Dr. Gaius. - 2 points


    Gaius, PhD.


    Mentor No. 1

    Edited on 09/04/2010 10:56am
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  • Avatar of pcdsa

    pcdsa

    [4]Sep 5, 2010
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    The Chambers of Science = 2 points
    Dr Gaius = 1 point

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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [5]Sep 5, 2010
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    There you go, hun

    Gaius thread title suggestions wrote:
    Gaius' Medical Practice.
    Gaius MD 2.
    The Chambers of Science 4.
    Science For Ever (and a Day).
    Gaius' Treatises.
    Dr. Gaius 3.
    Gaius, PhD.
    Mentor No. 1
    Edited on 09/05/2010 9:51am
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  • Avatar of illegalferret

    illegalferret

    [6]Sep 6, 2010
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    I was looking at this and wondering who hadn't voted then realised that person was me... oops! So my 2 points go to The Chamber of Science and my single point goes to Dr Gaius


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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [7]Sep 6, 2010
    • member since: 02/05/07
    • level: 75
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    There you go, Sarah

    Gaius thread title suggestions wrote:
    Gaius' Medical Practice.
    Gaius MD 2.
    The Chambers of Science 6.
    Science For Ever (and a Day).
    Gaius' Treatises.
    Dr. Gaius 4.
    Gaius, PhD.
    Mentor No. 1
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  • Avatar of Sparklingwater

    Sparklingwater

    [8]Feb 17, 2012
    • member since: 09/29/11
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    I don't know if has been mentioned before in this forum or if I read it somewhere else. In case it was here somewhere, sorry for repeating.


    Gaius was always one of my favorites, especially in the first season. But it has become very obvious that he and Merlin always lie to others about almost everything. While it's comprehensible that he has to be kind of diplomatical, I can't see why he never tells the truth when it's necessary and important. He lied to Uther almost all the time and kept him in the dark and he always lies to Arthur, even holds Merlin back from telling Arthur what's really going on. There is no reason why they still keep the enchanted necklace being a secret. Arthur has every right to know who murdered his father. There was also no reason to keep being quiet about Agravaine and his evil plans. If at least 2 people had told Arthur what was going on, he would have listened, even if reluctantly. He surely wouldn't have banned or even executed both Gaius and Merlin.


    And why didn't they tell Arthur about Lancelot being a shade, why not about Morgana's whereabouts? And it's not only about lying but also about holding back the truth and being silent when he should speak up. We could see that when Merlin told Gaius that he knows the truth about Arthur's birth and that Uther intentionally sacrificed Igraine although Gaius knew very well that Uther didn't know that Igraine was the one who had to die. He should have told Merlin but instead just looked at him kept his mouth shut. Why?


    When Arthur apologized for having supected Gaius of being the traitor, Gaius had the chance to tell him about Morgana and the necklace. Why in the world didn't he do it? Arthur already knows that Morgana has magic and that she has evil plans, plus that she had already used magic to invade Camelot. It wouldn't make a difference to know that Uther died through her magic since it wouldn't be a surprise, but it would make a difference to know that another sorcerer tried to help and therefore that magic isn't always bad.


    The moment Gaius learnt that Morgana's plans were just evil and about killing everyone in Camelot, he should have tried to talk to Uther in order to protect those Morgana seeks to kill. Merlin and Gaius could have thought about preparing a trap for Morgana to let Uther witness her magic himself. Even if Uther wouldn't have wanted to listen, he would have known that Gaius actually has no reason to lie to him about that. And if not talking to Uther, then they could have told Arthur the truth or at least working out a plan to stop Morgana. Actually, they did nothing.

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  • Avatar of PenguinSuzie

    PenguinSuzie

    [9]Feb 17, 2012
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    Dr. Gaius. 2
    Gaius' Medical Practice. 1

    I think Gaius is paranoid about anything happening to Merlin, or anyone even suspecting him. since he witnessed the purge, he's seen what happens to those who are even suggested to have/use or even know a lot about magic. He's so protective of Merlin because he's afraid for him, it means though that he doesn't always make the best choice and he doesn't take any chances that could pose even the slightest risk for Merlin.

    I really don't think Uther or Arthur would have taken the suggestion that Morgana/Agraiaine were against them lightly. Even when Merlin just suggested it to Arthur he reacted badly and threatened Merlin. It could have made a difference if Gaius was there as well but likely he would think they were both mistaken. I agree that they should have tried to expose them and that they didn't take certain opportunities to try and do so, but I think there are reasons for it.

    Merlin has got so used to hiding himself that it's automatic, he's used to having to hide things from Arthur so that he can sort it out for himself without having to work around Arthur or things going wrong. He never really reveals everything to him, so I think he's in the habbit of not doing it.

    I think there are a lot of things they should have done, and many things they should have told Arthur. They would have a lot of explaining to do about how they came by any of the information though. If Arthur asked how they knew Lancelot was a shade, how could they convince him it was true without revealing that they used magic to confirm it.

    They're just human though and everyone has moments where it isn't until later when something seems obvious. Like what they really should have done or said at the time, or wished they'd done.

    I think these things will come back to bite them though when Arthur finds out. He's not going to be happy.
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  • Avatar of Sparklingwater

    Sparklingwater

    [10]Feb 17, 2012
    • member since: 09/29/11
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:


    If Arthur asked how they knew Lancelot was a shade, how could they convince him it was true without revealing that they used magic to confirm it. They're just human though and everyone has moments where it isn't until later when something seems obvious. Like what they really should have done or said at the time, or wished they'd done. I think these things will come back to bite them though when Arthur finds out. He's not going to be happy.



    That's what I thought at first, too. Then I thought they could have told Arthur that they saw it coincidentally, that his face suddenly changed or whatever. Arthur knows that Gaius has great knowledge of magic, so an explanation would have been credible. Wouldn't have been the whole truth though, but at least the most important part and a release for both Gwen and Lancelot.



    I agree that they will have a lot to explain. Normally, that is. On the show, I suppose it will be ignored.


    I don't like the whole lying-thing all the time, it's a bit too much, I think. They had to hide some things from Uther, of course, and also some things from Arthur. But lying to them almost all the time about the most important things and threats is just cowardly and wrong. What kind of friendship is it when Merlin keeps Arthur being in the dark about someone who is a real threat to him? He risked Arthur's life each and every day, and so did Gaius with Uther AND Arthur, Merlin and Gwen and everyone else when Morgana was still in Camelot. The situation when Merlin told Arthur that Agravaine was lying about Gaius wasn't a good timing. It seemed to be too much of a desperate try to defend Gaius. At other times the situation would have been perfect. Gaius and Merlin could have told Arthur in a calm moment when Agravaine wasn't just suspecting someone of sorcery. There is a time and place for everything and Merlin wanted to tell Arthur indeed, only Gaius held him back.


    The reason that he wants to protect Merlin doesn't really work for me because by that he actually was responsible for Uther's death and also risks Merlin's, Arthur's and Gwen's life each and every day. Meanwhile it is really stupid to NOT open Arthur's eyes. The right decisons can only be made when one knows all the facts that are important for a certain situation, otherwise misdeterminations and false feelings of being safe and secure are will occur.


    Another thing is that Gaius didn't want to help Morgana when she first noticed that she had magical powers. Did he know she would become pure evil? If so, then it would have been even more important to guide her and to show her the right way. By lying to and spurning her, he helped her to develop into what she is now. If he didn't know then it's incomprehensible even more so because he knows that magical powers can't be surpressed. So instead of letting her alone with what she didn't understand, he should have helped her. It surely wasn't for her own protection because she couldn't quite control her powers and she was in danger to reveal herself to Uther any time.


    So, actually Gaius is jointly responsible for everything Morgana did to Camelot (of course, all in all Morgana is responsible for what she does, I just think that Gaius and Merlin at least should have tried to prevent her from becoming evil), for Uther's death because he let Uther believe that Morgana was his loving daughter, for all the invasions, for Gwen being banned, for Lancelot being disgraced and I also tend to think that he did not try to change Uther's mind and to help him when he had the opportunity. The dragon once told him that he always turns a blind eye and I think that is correct.


    Shame, I would prefer him to be more honest because I liked him so much.

    Edited on 02/17/2012 4:01pm
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  • Avatar of PenguinSuzie

    PenguinSuzie

    [11]Feb 18, 2012
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    Sparklingwater wrote:
    The reason that he wants to protect Merlin doesn't really work for me because by that he actually was responsible for Uther's death and also risks Merlin's, Arthur's and Gwen's life each and every day.
    How? For not helping Morgana? For not exposing Agravaine?
    Sparklingwater wrote:
    The dragon once told him that he always turns a blind eye and I think that is correct.
    It is a fault of his.
    Sparklingwater wrote:
    Another thing is that Gaius didn't want to help Morgana when she first noticed that she had magical powers. Did he know she would become pure evil? If so, then it would have been even more important to guide her and to show her the right way.
    I really don't think he had any idea. Him acknowledging to her that he thought she was a witch would also link him and Merlin tothat (which is selfish and unfair, but possibly in character given how overprotective Gaius is of Merlin), and I think Gaius didn't want her to be fully aware that she herself was magical as it would put her in a very bad position and might bring it to the surface more. He should have helped her, spoken to her and taught her how to control herself, but hechose not to which Merlin also thought was the wrong decision.I think he may have hoped that she'd be able to control herself and that anything magical she'd do outside of the dreams would be very rare. He didn't take a risk to help her. He should have at least spoken to her guided her, but doing so would reveal that he has different views on magic than Uther which in such an emotionally charged and dangerous situation might come out. Which would put Merlin at risk. He really didn't want Merlin to reveal himself to her in an attempt to help her either.
    Sparklingwater wrote:
    By lying to and spurning her, he helped her to develop into what she is now.
    True, but not to an extent that he'd be resposible for everything she's done IMO.
    Sparklingwater wrote:
    If he didn't know then it's incomprehensible even more so because he knows that magical powers can't be surpressed. So instead of letting her alone with what she didn't understand, he should have helped her. It surely wasn't for her own protection because she couldn't quite control her powers and she was in danger to reveal herself to Uther any time. So, actually Gaius is jointly responsible for everything Morgana did to Camelot (of course, all in all Morgana is responsible for what she does, I just think that Gaius and Merlin at least should have tried to prevent her from becoming evil), for Uther's death because he let Uther believe that Morgana was his loving daughter, for all the invasions, for Gwen being banned, for Lancelot being disgraced and I also tend to think that he did not try to change Uther's mind and to help him when he had the opportunity.
    Since Gaius chose not to help Morgana it is partially his fault that she fell so easily to Morgause's side, but I don't think it makes him resposible for the serious change of mind she has in how she goes about things. If he'd just told Uther she was an enemy, if he believed him he would have been broken by Morgana's betrayal anyway. I think Merlin tried, by helping Morgana get to the Druids he hoped she'd learn how to control her powers and not feel alone or different. He didn't think through the consequences of it but his heart was in the right place. I don't think anything would have changed Uther's mind, and even just trying would have pretty much been suicidal.

    I enjoy discussing things with you. Though we have different opinions on things it never feels like an argument. I hope it doesn't to you either.

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  • Avatar of Sparklingwater

    Sparklingwater

    [12]Feb 19, 2012
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    Thank you PenguinSuzie. I don't see it as an argument at all and I enjoy discussing things with you too And we don't always disagree.




    PenguinSuzie wrote:


    Sparklingwater wrote:
    The reason that he wants to protect Merlin doesn't really work for me because by that he actually was responsible for Uther's death and also risks Merlin's, Arthur's and Gwen's life each and every day.
    How? For not helping Morgana? For not exposing Agravaine?



    That among other things. By not telling Uther or others about Morgana, he risked Merlin's and everyone else's life due to the fact that Morgana wanted (and then tried) to bring down Camelot and its people. Merlin and all the others were in constant danger, yet they didn't do much to change that apart from limiting damages (which didn't quite work well). If Gaius had taken action about Morgana, she might have been stopped before all those terrible things happened.


    Yes, it would have been very dangerous to tell Uther since he didn't want to listen (and so didn't Arthur about Agravaine) but there would have been ways to give him hints now and then, to make him suspicious. Gaius didn't even try and that's the point. If there was anyone who could have convinced Uther, in whatever way, it was Gaius because he had Uther's trust. And if Uther wouldn't have been the best choice to talk to, they should have tried to talk to Arthur. Leon. Gwen. How many times have Gaius and Merlin risked their lifes by saving others? Merlin was close to reveal himself when he used magic to expose Lady Kathrina/troll. In season 1 Gaius even asked Merlin to use magic in order to heal Uther from the bugs. There were many more situations that were very dangerous but in regard to Morgana they kept quiet all the time. It would have been difficult to convince either Uther or Arthur for they didn't have a camera to take a picture of Morgana planning evil things, I know, but they should have tried one way or another. A good chance would have been when Gaius was posessed by the Goblin. He could have told Uther afterwards that he could see what was going on through the eyes and mind of that Goblin.


    Uther knew about Morgause's magic, so chances were good that Morgana had magic too. By letting him know or giving hints, he could have deduced that there might be some truth in it (if he hadn't anyway...). Someday he would have learnt that Gaius was right. But Uther didn't even get the chance to change anything because he obviously thought that everything was alright between Morgana and himself. If he had known what Morgana was up to and what she thought about him, maybe he would have tried to set things right, given that she was so important to him. It was Uther on whom Morgana's hatred focused, so Uther was the best one who could have changed it. And if he couldn't, he would at least have been warned. There was no guarantee, of course, but Gaius can't predict the future and by not trying anything, he let Uther walk right into the trap.


    One might think that he wanted that. I refuse to believe that but given how uncaring and unhelpful he was in season 4 when Uther was devastated and then died, it almost seems as if he wanted this to happen.


    His illogical behaviour continued with Arthur when not warning him about Agravaine and not telling him about the necklace. It had nothing to do with protecting Merlin or anyone else because no one knew that Merlin was Dragoon, he had nothing to do with the whole situation in Arthur's eyes. So he wasn't protecting anyone, except Agravaine and Morgana, sad to say.


    What reason do Merlin and Gaius have to not tell Arthur that it was Morgana who killed Uther in the end? It makes absolutely no sense.


    There is another thing that bothers me a bit. When Gaius talked to Arthur after he was back from being kidnapped by Morgana, he told Arthur about people who helped him and that Dragoon was innocent, talked to him like a father. Aside from the fact that it was illogical to not take the chance to tell him about Morgana and Agravaine and that Arthur STLL didn't suspect Agravaine when he was the only one left who could be the traitor, I wish Gaius would have tried to talk to Uther like this only once. Reassuring him of his friendship and support on an emotional level, not only in regard to fighting magic. Gaius was old enough to be Uther's father, so he could have tried to guide him bit by bit. Such things can make a huge difference. Instead he always played the loyal friend who supported Uther in fighting magic.


    Uther was being betrayed and lied at by almost everyone who was close to him. By Gaius, Morgana, back then obviously Nimueh and even by his own son. Gaius knew that. Uther was just a human being, not a monster, and given that Gaius is wise and old enough to know a few things about the human psyche and most of all of the ones he spent decades with, he was qualified to help Uther emotionally. In case he had tried back then when Igraine died or several years later, we don't know about it. What we got to see was most of all a lying Gaius who risked his own and Merlin's life to save Uther but betrayed him at the same time, sidetracked him, then put his life at stake and then actually abandoned him.


    All in all, the message of "Merlin" has become that it is right (and the only way) to betray and to lie in order to fulfill a mysterious destiny. The people that die and suffer along the way don't seem to be of any importance, except those who play a part in that destiny.


    I don't like that very much.



    PenguinSuzie wrote:


    Sparklingwater wrote:
    By lying to and spurning her, he helped her to develop into what she is now.
    True, but not to an extent that he'd be resposible for everything she's done IMO.




    I agree, that's right. Morgana has her own mind and is responsible for what she does. It's just not right to know about things and threats and to not try to do something about it. Therefore I think that Gaius and also Merlin are partly guilty. It was always said that it was all Uther's fault that Morgana became so evil. The difference between Uther and Gaius/Merlin is that they knew what was going on with Morgana, Uther didn't. That's why I said above that he didn't even get the chance to change anything. Let alone that he was her victim, not the other way around.


    I think this is one of the reasons why I prefer a character like Uther, who was very questionable, like everyone else is on Merlin - but he wasn't the devious and insidious kind of a person like others are, Morgana, for example. Gaius used to be one of my favorites but it took a while to figure out that he is a dishonest person. Not evil or bad or anything, and I still like him. But dishonest and a little insidious. Very disappointing. I wish the writers hadn't done that.


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  • Avatar of PenguinSuzie

    PenguinSuzie

    [13]Feb 19, 2012
    • member since: 08/19/11
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    I wish they'd done things to make Uther/Arthur see the truth. Even just to make them suspect Morgana/Agravaine. It's disappointing that they didn't.

    Gaius and Merlin really should have found a way to tell Arthur the truth about Lancelot not being himself, and about the necklace and Uther's death.

    I see what you mean about Gaius having more of a chance to impact Uther in regards to magic, it would have been interesting to see him trying something like that.

    Gaius does have flaws with serious consequences for others. He's distrustful, overprotective and an enabler. I do like him though. I think he really did care about Uther, even if he didn't do all he could to help him. There is some nice deleted scenes with them, I wish they'd left those in.

    Edited on 02/19/2012 11:04am
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    Aving

    [14]Feb 20, 2012
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    Sparklingwater wrote:




    What reason do Merlin and Gaius have to not tell Arthur that it was Morgana who killed Uther in the end? It makes absolutely no sense.


    There is another thing that bothers me a bit. When Gaius talked to Arthur after he was back from being kidnapped by Morgana, he told Arthur about people who helped him and that Dragoon was innocent, talked to him like a father. Aside from the fact that it was illogical to not take the chance to tell him about Morgana and Agravaine and that Arthur STLL didn't suspect Agravaine when he was the only one left who could be the traitor, I wish Gaius would have tried to talk to Uther like this only once. Reassuring him of his friendship and support on an emotional level, not only in regard to fighting magic. Gaius was old enough to be Uther's father, so he could have tried to guide him bit by bit. Such things can make a huge difference. Instead he always played the loyal friend who supported Uther in fighting magic.


    Uther was being betrayed and lied at by almost everyone who was close to him. By Gaius, Morgana, back then obviously Nimueh and even by his own son. Gaius knew that. Uther was just a human being, not a monster, and given that Gaius is wise and old enough to know a few things about the human psyche and most of all of the ones he spent decades with, he was qualified to help Uther emotionally. In case he had tried back then when Igraine died or several years later, we don't know about it. What we got to see was most of all a lying Gaius who risked his own and Merlin's life to save Uther but betrayed him at the same time, sidetracked him, then put his life at stake and then actually abandoned him.


    I loved Gaius in season one and also season two. It was always so... I don't know... comfortable when seeing Merlin and him in his chambers, eating or talking about things. After the events of an episode, Gaius' chambers were always something like 'coming home' from a day full of hard work and stress, if you know what I mean. Gaius was always so caring and calm, someone people would want to have as a father or grandfather.


    I agree that he has changed since season four, I couldn't just figure out what it was. I thought that he was just a bit in the background but it's true, there is a lot of lying going on. And it's also true that we never really saw him talking to Uther like a friend, except maybe for 'Excalibur' when they had this conversation about Ygraine and when Gaius said that he had always feared that Uther's temper would be his death someday. I can't remember talking rather privately to Uther than professionally, which is a pity.


    Oh yes, there was noone close to Uther who hadn't betrayed and manipulated him, and while I think that it probably was necessary in some situations, it is disappointing to see Gaius doing this so many times when he is the only one who knows what was going on back then before Morgana, Arthur and Merlin or Gwen were around. Or anyone else. Seeing someone lying to a friend or some sort of friend all the time after maybe 30 years they've spent together, is indeed very sad


    Supposingly, Gaius and Merlin didn't tell Arthur about the necklace and Agravaine because it was convinient for the story. It wasn't subtle enough, so people are wondering what this was all about. Maybe they should have thought of real good reasons but since they didn't, it is just a huge plothole that lasted for an entire season. There is great lack of thoughtfulness and emotional depth in season four.



    Sparklingwater wrote:


    I think this is one of the reasons why I prefer a character like Uther, who was very questionable, like everyone else is on Merlin - but he wasn't the devious and insidious kind of a person like others are, Morgana, for example. Gaius used to be one of my favorites but it took a while to figure out that he is a dishonest person. Not evil or bad or anything, and I still like him. But dishonest and a little insidious. Very disappointing. I wish the writers hadn't done that.




    Hello! You forgot about Lancelot! Nope, Lancelot had no flaws and I'm sure he doesn't even know what a lie is... Seriously, with the exception of Lancelot, everyone on Merlin has or had their own agendas more or less, and lied. It's a questionable ideal for a family show. Lying now and then is not the problem but the constant betrayal and manipulation that you mentioned has become really weird and also boring. Merlin has to hide, so he probably has to lie the most of all people, but meanwhile Gaius literally educates him to be a liar and to be inactive.



    PenguinSuzie wrote:


    I wish they'd done things to make Uther/Arthur see the truth. Even just to make them suspect Morgana/Agravaine. It's disappointing that they didn't.

    Gaius and Merlin really should have found a way to tell Arthur the truth about Lancelot not being himself, and about the necklace and Uther's death.

    I see what you mean about Gaius having more of a chance to impact Uther in regards to magic, it would have been interesting to see him trying something like that.

    Gaius does have flaws with serious consequences for others. He's distrustful, overprotective and an enabler. I do like him though. I think he really did care about Uther, even if he didn't do all he could to help him. There is some nice deleted scenes with them, I wish they'd left those in.




    He obviously did care in the previous seasons but especially in season four, he was very indifferent. Uther didn't seem to matter to him. I think if you care about a person, you try to help them and you feel sorry and compassionate when they suffer or die. The unsual robot-like behaviour of Gaius was strange in my opinion. I think he is a pragmatical person but he hasn't been indifferent or cold before, so his new character development doesn't apply at all.


    I agree, it was disapointing that they didn't do things to make Arthur and Uther see the truth. I also agree that it is a pity they didn't leave the scenes between the two of them.

    Edited on 02/20/2012 11:15am
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    boom-moo

    [15]Feb 21, 2012
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    Richard Wilson at The Alan Titchmarsh show here.
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    Scop

    [16]Feb 23, 2012
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    The only reason I can think of Gaius not telling Arthur about Morgana's involvement in Uther's death is to keep him from getting angry and going after her. Also, by telling Arthur it was a natural death, not a magical one, it get's Arthur out of thinking that Magic killed both his parents and get's Merlin off the hook a bit for killing Uther.

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    boom-moo

    [17]Feb 24, 2012
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    Richard interview during the filming of episode 2x08 here.
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    Sparklingwater

    [18]Feb 24, 2012
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    Of course, Aving! Lancelot was perfect, I forgot Shame he had to leave the show, the only person one could rely on 100% without being in danger of being betrayed or manipulated. In contrast to (meanwhile) every other character on that show, he was a real blessing. Generally I find too perfect characters a little boring but for some reason, Lancelot wasn't boring at all.



    Scop wrote:


    The only reason I can think of Gaius not telling Arthur about Morgana's involvement in Uther's death is to keep him from getting angry and going after her. Also, by telling Arthur it was a natural death, not a magical one, it get's Arthur out of thinking that Magic killed both his parents and get's Merlin off the hook a bit for killing Uther.



    That's interesting and I considered that too. On the other hand, Arthur already knows that magic can corrupt and do some real evil things. He also knows that Morgana is really bad and that she has magic, so no reason to hide that from him anymore. Besides, he is not a child that must be pushed into a certain direction but a grown-up man who knows a few things.


    He still doesn't really know what killed Uther, magic or simply the wound, so he is still unsure and tends to consider magic to be more evil than good. If he knew the truth, that Morgana used magic to kill Uther but Dragoon tried to heal him with magic, he would know once and for all that it's not magic that is bad but that it is used as a tool for evil and good things, just like any weapon can be used for either good or bad things.


    Gaius should have a real good reason why he doesn't want Arthur to go after Morgana, alas there has never been any hint throughout the entire 4th season. If that was the case, they could have made Gaius and Merlin talk about it so that the audience knows that Gaius might still have hope for Morgana or something like that. But after everything she has done and is up to do, there is no valid reason why anyone would still want her to be safe and alive. Besides, Arthur has alerady seen what Morgana does and how evil she is (killing for fun or power, torturing, invading Camelot 2 times etc...). If that doesn't make him angry, then what does? He knows that she tried to kill Uther, she also imprisoned him and killed innocent citizens. There is no reason to keep him calm about Morgana - and if there was, they should have presented it to the audience. It's still not right to not tell Arthur the truth for he has every right to know what happened to his father. By having false assumptions, Arthur is predestined to make the wrong decisions, sooner or later. With every day they leave Morgana alone without trying to stop her, she will make everything worse. And if there are at least 2 people who know that, it's Gaius and Merlin. All they do is protecting Morgana but not Arthur or anyone else in Camelot, neither themselves. That is so illogical.



    As for the interview, Id like to know what he thinks about the "new" Gaius now. Pity that I couldn't find anything about it.

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    Scop

    [19]Feb 29, 2012
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    The thing you've got to remember here is that Gaius isn't really a hero, he's a survivor. He may have saved a few people during the great purge, but Gaius did stand by and watch some of his friends die to save his own hide. Nimueh surprise had Gaius's willing to die for Merlin at the end of Le Mort de Arthur, highlights this. He's always played by the First Law of Harry*: Don't get caught. Whether that was for pure self preservation or for the more nobler reason of "if you get caught you can't help anyone" that he's been teaching Merlin.


    He probably saw a lot of his friends die because they played the hero first without getting all the facts first or figuring out all the consequences. He's been living on the razor's edge for 20ish years, with Uther knowing he practiced sorcerery. He's had to shut al LOT of himself down to survive.


    But basically it's that skill that destiny needed Gaius to teach Merlin, otherwise he would have gotten himself killed by Uther on several occasions. At the same time, though. Merlin's woken Gaius up to his older self, getting him to practice magic again and to put his own life on the line for another.


    Still, Gaius has been playing this game too long. He is always going to err on the side of caution. He's not going to trust that friendship is enough to save him from the pire. We might know that Arthur would eventually forgive Merlin, but they don't know that. If Merlin's going to survive to continue to protect Arthur, they have to play it safe, even if it bites them later, it's not as big of a bite as dying now.

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    Sparklingwater

    [20]Mar 1, 2012
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    You're right and I would agree with everything you said if it wasn't for some other things.



    Scop wrote:


    The thing you've got to remember here is that Gaius isn't really a hero, he's a survivor. He may have saved a few people during the great purge, but Gaius did stand by and watch some of his friends die to save his own hide. Nimueh surprise had Gaius's willing to die for Merlin at the end of Le Mort de Arthur, highlights this. He's always played by the First Law of Harry*: Don't get caught. Whether that was for pure self preservation or for the more nobler reason of "if you get caught you can't help anyone" that he's been teaching Merlin.



    Of course, Gaius isn't a superhero and one can't expect him to save the world. What I find disturbing is that while TPTB showed us a Gaius who was willing to take some risks despite his flaws, who cared and who always tried to help in the first 2-3 seasons, they suddenly presented a Gaius who just stands by and watches, turned into some kind of statue, keeps explanations and secrets from everyone (including Merlin), reacts a bit aggressively, lies and doesn't really care in season 4. He was also pretty unmoved when Lancelot died the second time.


    If he had always been that way it all would make perfect sense but a sudden change doesn't.



    Scop wrote:


    He probably saw a lot of his friends die because they played the hero first without getting all the facts first or figuring out all the consequences. He's been living on the razor's edge for 20ish years, with Uther knowing he practiced sorcerery. He's had to shut al LOT of himself down to survive.


    I've always thought that he stayed in Camelot for at least 3 reasons: Helping people who are in danger due to their magical skills, protecting Arthur and also keeping the friendship with Uther. It was fascinating that those reasons brought up dilemmas for him and to see how he dealt with them. But his decision to stay with Uther as his king was to help those or at least some who were threatened by Uther, so the way he dealt with it was logical and very well done throughout the first seasons. That's why I don't see any logical explanation why it all changed so drastically in season 4. His whole attitude has changed and I believe it did because it was another part of the attempt to make the show more mature. This wasn't necessary, I think the show was mature and with changing characters all of a sudden it has the opposite effect.


    I mean, hiding himself, being diplomatic, helping others secretly and protecting Merlin doesn't mean to suddenly get cold and shrugging when a longtime friend or a noble knight who happened to be Merlin's only confident (aside from Gaius) and who also sacrificed himself in order to save others die. It also doesn't mean to act illogical and to lie about the most important and essential things when they put many lives in danger.


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