Merlin Forums

Please don't take this as a challenge to your world view and if you feel it is please just disregard this. But as a woman I'd love to understand what the payoff is for a woman to be so caught up in an idea that really is spawned from male hatred of the feminine. QUOTE

The payoff for me would be Gwen could be a strong ambitous, sexual woman who marries for love/power but then chooses her lover. I like to see women exert power and not be victims or passive players in the story.

I see nothing empowering about preferring a version where she is probably the victim of rape and manipulation than than a woman who made her own choices. The hatred in these stories which I agree is there, is generally spawned out of fear. The inability of men to control women in general, and their lusts in particular. A genuine fear during medieval times and until much later. It wasn't until the victorian era that women became falsely viewed and brainwashed with the idea they were sexually passive creatures.

I like the idea that Lance and Arthur (sweet idealistic fools) are being given the run around by a beautiful but pragmatic woman. The patient virgin sitting around waiting for Mr right to pop the question is hardly a role model for the 21 century nor I believe a realistic portrayal of women's true sexual history.

Fanny Price and Moll Flanders are my literary heroines so Gwen is going to have to get a lot more dynamic and romantically torn to earn my respect and admiration but I think the signs are there. The burn she gave Lance and her justified but still suprising lack of empathy for Uther gave me hope that there is an adulterer in the making lurking under all that flowered embroidery

The payoff for me would be Gwen could be a strong ambitous, sexual woman who marries for love/power but then chooses her lover. I like to see women exert power and not be victims or passive players in the story.

Only this is not the Gwen of your accepted Canon. She was an object. She did not make a choice of whom to marry and had she been given that choice perhaps she would not have had to take a lover. Sexuality does not equal disloyalty and dishonor which adultery is, regardless of why one makes the choice.

This Gwen will make the choice of whom to love and while she is not passive and seems to be very aware of her sexuality one can only hope that she does not become some f'd up caricature of a soap opera diva with low self esteem who confuses sex for love and manipulation for power.

I don't think that she thought for a second that Lancelot or any other of the knights wouldn't protect Arthur with their life. But same as she felt it right to approach Lancelot and ask a request from him, she could surely have approached her brother and her friends and wished them well, especially since they are leaving on a mission from which they might not return. It is not a matter of giving a queen like speech or issuing orders that are beyond her station, it's just a matter of showing care and concern for a group of people she has gone through a lot with. My point being that I think that it was deliberate that she exchanged words just with Lancelot as was the choice of words exchanged so that everyone can make of it what they please.

Well, I think that we would miss the whole pointif that were to be played on scene and we miss the purpose the scene was created to convey. While we know she cares for her brother and are friends with the other knights she did not do that in 3X13 either. She had the same feelings for her brother and the other knights then but it was only Arthur that she said her seniments to. Gwen wouldn't have been afforded that much precious scene timeand it would service no important purpose. Not to mention it would be a boring and ackward scene.

But the exchange with he and Lancelot would service a very important purpose. In it's very short scene time it reitarates her feelings for Arthur directly to Lancelot. It shows he still have romantic feelings for her and it shows her unromantic feelings for him as well as restates her love for Arthur. Again, Lancelot is Arthur's best swordsman and her approach to him was only for the sake of Arthur, period. The face value of it was an addition to the prior scene of her immense concern for Arthur not anyone else. While I know she loves her brother, it was not her brother that she rested her hopes in Arthur's safe return. It was Lancelot's skill that she wanted to rest her hopes in that Arthur would come back. Thus the scene works a several fold purpose, i.e. building on the premise that Gwen's feelings of love rest with Arthur and Arthur only. That is the message I see TPTB are trying yet again to convey. For me that's the on face value message I got.

[QUOTE="chrolligal"]

The payoff for me would be Gwen could be a strong ambitous, sexual woman who marries for love/power but then chooses her lover. I like to see women exert power and not be victims or passive players in the story.

I see nothing empowering about preferring a version where she is probably the victim of rape and manipulation than than a woman who made her own choices. The hatred in these stories which I agree is there, is generally spawned out of fear. The inability of men to control women in general, and their lusts in particular. A genuine fear during medieval times and until much later. It wasn't until the victorian era that women became falsely viewed and brainwashed with the idea they were sexually passive creatures.

I agree that there is a strong whiff of misogyny in these stories. However, the challenge for the writers is to keep some elements of the original while making our version relevant for a modern, family audience. To my mind, a woman who simply expresses her power through sexuality is not really empowered at all, and is in itself a rather old-fashioned idea. I would prefer to see Gwen express herself in other ways. I don't want to see everything dragged down to the lowest common denominator.

I like the idea that Lance and Arthur (sweet idealistic fools) are being given the run around by a beautiful but pragmatic woman. The patient virgin sitting around waiting for Mr right to pop the question is hardly a role model for the 21 century nor I believe a realistic portrayal of women's true sexual history.

I couldn't disagree more. Loyalty and fidelity are admirable qualities regardless of age, sex or culture. By the way, what is wrong with being sweet natured or idealistic? Some of us actually like this show because of the vein of optimism, friendship and kindness which runs through it, despite the difficulties in the way. It is a welcome antidote to the moral relativism and depressing cynicism so pervasive in our culture.

I couldn't disagree more. Loyalty and fidelity are admirable qualities regardless of age, sex or culture. By the way, what is wrong with being sweet natured or idealistic? Some of us actually like this show because of the vein of optimism, friendship and kindness which runs through it, despite the difficulties in the way. It is a welcome antidote to the moral relativism and depressing cynicism so pervasive in our culture.

So totally bowing to you right now.

Chro

I meant to reply earlier to your comment about preferring Gwen as a rape victim. The point was not about preference but rather the inherent disdain of women shown by morphing a rape victim into an adulteress. Being an adulterer/adulteress is not a badge of honor and the change did not take place as a way of empowering the character.

Wilfeli, I too I'm hoping for the same in S4. Fingers crossed

@PenguinSuzie Of course all of your opinions are valid. I don't agree with them but you are entitled to like who/what you like.

I'd just like to point out that to me you seem to be saying you liked Gwen as long as she was a naive self conscious appendage to Morgana.

I mean obviously the Gwen of season 1 had to grow. I feel that growth has been positive. She's now a self confident woman who is loyal kind and a champion for the greater good. Really not so much removed from who she was at season 1 except now she is secure in Arthur's love and on a path to become Queen.

Why would men not be attracted to her. She's beautiful she's kind and has a ready smile for everyone things most men are attracted to. I haven't heard you express anger at the fact that men were also attracted to a Morgana who while physically beautiful (in a totally paint by numbers kind of way) was brash selfish and competitive with as opposed to helpful to Arthur something no man really likes and likely the cause for the break we see @ 1x05 when Arthur is asking Lance about Morgana's physical beauty but expressing reserve by saying I suppose she is (like I know I should think so but why don't I)?

To me you seem to be taking clearly positive traits and imbuing them with negativity because it's Gwen who is displaying them. For example to care for Uther out of love for Arthur is kind good and decent. Sure someone else could have done it but Arthur has just had his world turned upside down and his trust betrayed by someone he loved as family. Surely it's a good thing that Gwen has set aside her personal feelings for Uther and given Arthur one less worry in his new role as regent. It would be different if she was disrespectful to Uther but she's not even going so far as to miss a festival to care for him. I truly don't get how doing the right thing can be wrong.

Ultimately we all have to examine the basis for our beliefs but your opinions are valid.