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BBC (ended 2012)

The Queen of Clean - Guinevere thread

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    PenguinSuzie

    [281]Feb 8, 2012
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    @SoSeriously You sound like you are deliberately trying to wind people up. Why didn't you just ask what peoples thoughts are generally about the character and why some people don't like her, if that's all you wondered about? Instead of continuing to assume there's a deeper meaning that people aren't saying behind their opinion of Gwen while phrasing it like an accusation.
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    wilfeli

    [282]Feb 8, 2012
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    I believe strongly that hard work should be rewarded, it doesn't always happen in real life, but I believe it's how it should be. Both Arthur, Merlin work very hard to become great King/Adviser, they study, make mistakes, try - I feel that they deserve respect for what they do, for how hard they work and study. And the same goes for any professional who spends his life trying to excell in his craft. It's respect for those who devote their lifes to their profession. As for Gwen - the way it's depicted, she isn't shown to actually study for her job as a Queen/Adviser, and thus I feel that by assuming that without proper traning she could be as good as Merlin in terms of advising someone on state matters or as good as Arthur leading armies or performing more broad administrative duties as King is disrespectful toward those who spend their life preparing for respected jobs. And the same could be applied to any situation in life. In general I do not think that being lucky without proper training and hard work should be respected as much as being devoted to your profession in terms of time and effort invested into it.



    As for implied, however slight they might have been or been the result of imprecise wording, accusations in racism, they are extremely insulting for me. My granduncle died defending my country against those who believed that people are different from birth and some belong to more advanced race/nation than another. To even assume such a thing is to betray memory and sacrifice of millions who died defending all of us.



    Edited on 02/08/2012 7:50am
    Edited 3 total times.
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  • Avatar of BrightlyLit

    BrightlyLit

    [283]Feb 8, 2012
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    wilfeli wrote:


    I believe strongly that hard work should be rewarded, it doesn't always happen in real life, but I believe it's how it should be. Both Arthur, Merlin work very hard to become great King/Adviser, they study, make mistakes, try - I feel that they deserve respect for what they do, for how hard they work and study. And the same goes for any professional who spends his life trying to excell in his craft. It's respect for those who devote their lifes to their profession. As for Gwen - the way it's depicted, she isn't shown to actually study for her job as a Queen/Adviser, and thus I feel that by assuming that without proper traning she could be as good as Merlin in terms of advising someone on state matters or as good as Arthur leading armies or performing more broad administrative duties as King is disrespectful toward those who spend their life preparing for respected jobs. And the same could be applied to any situation in life. In general I do not think that being lucky without proper training and hard work should be respected as much as being devoted to your profession in terms of time and effort invested into it.




    I came in on this late and didn't realize the discussion had to do with a comparison of whether Merlin or Gwen had prepared themselves properly to rule the kingdom. I see them both as advisers to Arthur and I certainly don't hold it against Merlin for the mistakes he's made in judgment. However, I see them both relating to the king in different ways, with both being viable to the needs he has to become the great king of legend. As I said, I believe every great man can benefit from a good woman in his life who can spur him on to greatness and Guinevere certainly is that woman in Arthur's life. Women can touch a chord in a man's life that other men can't. Obviously, he recognizes that, in light of what he said not just to his uncle, but to his father in 3x06 after he aborted his arranged marriage. Even much of what he's said to Merlin would indicate he recognizes his need of Guinevere,t as a man, yes, but also as a king. So in their roles as advisers to Arthur, I think they hold different and necessary roles in that capacity and it doesn't all have to do with study and work. Merlin has made some grave errors in judgment along the way but he has learned from them and I believe he is basically growing in his wisdom. I do take issue with some of his choices with respect to what he does and does not tell Arthur and I wonder how his extended lack of honesty will play out when all is said and done. But I know we all can be assured of his love, his courage, his loyalty, and his growing wisdom. He is certainly well on his way to being that which he needs to be. On the other hand, I believe the Guinevere portrayed in this show is already in place (unless the "betrayal" is used against her), and has been for some time. She too stumbles at times since she tends to worry about him a bit much as women do (such as her request of Lancelot in 4x01 and the response to his death in 4x02), and also you saw the womanly thing in 4x06 when she was Gwen the worrier, but again in my opinion she was the only sensible one around if the council was letting their king who had no heir go out on his own to look for his friend, no matter how dear that friend may have been. To me, she was showing good common sense, but then wives tend to do that and are often the voice of reason. Arthur needs that just as much as he needs what his chief adviser is bringing to the table. I guess you can see I have a high view of the husband/wife relationship when it's played out right, I guess partly because of my experience in real life. So yes, she is just as important to the kingdom as Merlin IMO.


    Preparing for the administrative duties of ruling the kingdom is another matter. Certainly I hope you're not implying that Merlin would be well suited to the task because of his hard work to protect and counsel Arthur. I think the point we're trying to make on this is that certainly Gwen is in the position now that this task could very possibly fall on her. She is the one who is second to Arthur in this capacity and we need to give an honest evaluation of whether we think she could rise to the occasion or not. Some think she's not capable and some, like me, think she is. There are many who think the Gwen of this series is made of the stuff and has the character to persevere in learning and doing what's necessary. She has always known when to "step back" (as in 3x06) or "step aside" (as in 3x12,13) or "step up" (many examples of that!) and for me there was a foreshadowing of the queen in her orchestration of her and Leon's escape in the S3 finale. She was in total control and knew exactly what she was doing. Watch that again and watch her countenance with the guards and with Leon throughout that whole scenario. The girl has a head on her shoulders and I'll be very disappointed and surprised if we don't see it in Season 5. I feel confident she can and will be able to do what needs to be done to run the kingdom if it ever falls in her lap to do so. Having said that, I hope it never does because I want Arthur around and I want her to give him an heir.


    And also, I never implied she would be as good as Arthur would be. I'm only speaking with respect to her abilities if the "job" is ever forced upon her, which I'm sure she also would hope it never was on a permanent basis. I feel what Gwen wants most is to be Arthur's wife and queen, not to rule the kingdom on her own. But as his support, comfort, adviser, and lover, none will be better.

    Edited on 02/08/2012 10:36am
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  • Avatar of wilfeli

    wilfeli

    [284]Feb 8, 2012
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    BrightlyLit wrote:


    Preparing for the administrative duties of ruling the kingdom is another matter. Certainly I hope you're not implying that Merlin would be well suited to the task because of his hard work to protect and counsel Arthur. I think the point we're trying to make on this is that certainly Gwen is in the position now that this task could very possibly fall on her. She is the one who is second to Arthur in this capacity and we need to give an honest evaluation of whether we think she could rise to the occasion or not. Some think she's not capable and some, like me, think she is. There are many who think the Gwen of this series is made of the stuff and has the character to persevere in learning and doing what's necessary. She has always known when to "step back" (as in 3x06) or "step aside" (as in 3x12,13) or "step up" (many examples of that!) and for me there was a foreshadowing of the queen in her orchestration of her and Leon's escape in the S3 finale. She was in total control and knew exactly what she was doing. Watch that again and watch her countenance with the guards and with Leon throughout that whole scenario. The girl has a head on her shoulders and I'll be very disappointed and surprised if we don't see it in Season 5. I feel confident she can and will be able to do what needs to be done to run the kingdom if it ever falls in her lap to do so. Having said that, I hope it never does because I want Arthur around and I want her to give him an heir.



    That's where we disagree, I feel that amount of knowledge and experience needed to even adequately perform duties as a ruling Queen will be too much for her to handle in her current state. After proper training - perhaps, but not if she is forced to rule right now. I think that having wisdom and common sense isn't enough to be good at that job, you have to have some experience, as a right hand man for example, before stepping up to the position of a ruler. She has some qualities to be good ruler but she is not there now. And yes, I implicitly assumed that we are talking about her ability to be good Queen, because everyone could be a bad one, question is for how long


    That's why I was mentioning being advocate in a modern court, by law everyone could be his/her own advocate, but you will be much better if you hire someone who is professional lawyer it's just the way it is. Theoretically nothing prevents you from reading code of law and trying to defend yourself in court, but amount of knowledge and experience required for that is too much for an untrained person.



    Basically for me - being a King/Queen is similar to being CEO of a large corporation in a modern world, and I know that it's much harder than it seems. Very common misconception nowdays is that such jobs do not require extensive training and experience, or that you could be trained on-job, no not at this level. It's hard to explain, why it's much more complicated than it seems, but it's really difficult being a good manager and until you've tried it yourself it might seem very easy. It's responsibility, delegation, time management, strategic vision and willpower and etc and etc. And it seems that she could do all of it, but you need to have experience to balance it all properly even if it might seem easy and obvious to a casual observer.



    I was watching 4x05, when Agravaine was talking about ''people, your people do not wish to see their king with a daughter of a blacksmith' and now I'm sure that he was talking about courtiers, not just random peasants or citydwellers. I also always remember that she is commoner, so she will be judged even harder than Arthur in all her decisions, she has less room for making mistakes and less time to learn, and court will be much more resistant to all that comes from her. Marrying a commoner 'it's not a done thing' to quote Arthur.



    I remember A.C. talking about Gwen and she said that it's her role to nurture his heart, and yes she is good at it, but the Ones and Future King is Arthur, not her.I think that their roles are being adviser to the King each in their own capacity (Merlin and Gwen), and Arthur couldn't be a great King without their support, but neither of them could be a great King/Queen in his place.



    I sometimes wonder, why some people want it so much for her to be a good Queen on her own, why can't they just accept that it's equally important to be supportive, helping and understanding wife? Why being wife to your husband is considered less honorable and important than having a career? Sometimes it takes two to build one career. Well, and of course you can replace wife with husband - if it's what they both wish, and talk about being supporting and caring husband (or you could talk about wife/wife, husband/husband families, it's not important to me).

    Edited on 02/08/2012 11:45am
    Edited 3 total times.
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    BrightlyLit

    [285]Feb 8, 2012
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    wilfeli wrote:


    I remember A.C. talking about Gwen and she said that it's her role to nurture his heart, and yes she is good at it, but the Ones and Future King is Arthur, not her.I think that their roles are being adviser to the King each in their own capacity (Merlin and Gwen), and Arthur couldn't be a great King without their support, but neither of them could be a great King/Queen in his place.


    I sometimes wonder, why some people want it so much for her to be a good Queen on her own, why can't they just accept that it's equally important to be supportive, helping and understanding wife? Why being wife to your husband is considered less honorable and important than having a career? Sometimes it takes two to build one career. Well, and of course you can replace wife with husband - if it's what they both wish, and talk about being supporting and caring husband (or you could talk about wife/wife, husband/husband families, it's not important to me).



    Please, please get it straight what I'M saying, I don't know about others. I definitely am not WANTING Guinevere to be queen on her own. I am only saying that if it were thrust upon her, I think she could do it. That is all I'm saying, nothing more. I hope you get the picture that I am thinking it would not be the ideal. The best thing is that ARTHUR be king. And I'd imagine most of us would agree that the Once and Future King is indeed Arthur, no one at all is arguing that. And that is what all of us want to see. I tried to make it clear in my comment that the best scenario is Arthur as king with Merlin and Gwen supporting him in their respective roles. So when I was discussing whether she could rise to the occasion and perform her duties in a reasonable manner and without the kingdom falling apart, it's not saying it's what I want to happen. Just voicing my opinion on how she'd function if it did. Others apparently don't agree with my assessment and that perfectly legitimate. Just please don't twist what I'm saying and we'll be fine.


    And yes, we definitely agree on this: It's equally important to be a supportive, helping and understanding wife. IMO she's better suited as that than to rule on her own. But I repeat: I think she could do it if she absolutely HAD to. And yes, sometimes it takes two to build one career. That' happening right now in the lives of my daughter and her husband, so I'm seeing it first hand, as no doubt you have too. I'm sure you're not surprised that we are on two ends of the spectrum about your assessment of replacing wife with husband. Respecting the whole husband/wife, i.e. the masculine/feminine balance in relationships, this is extremely important to me and I think this probably impacts how each of us feels about not just the Arthur/Gwen relationship, but real life romantic unions in society in general. It's a topic we're better not discussing here, even though it may be underlying much of what we feel about the whole situation.

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    wilfeli

    [286]Feb 8, 2012
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    @BrightlyLit


    I was thinking out loud that I see this POV often on Internet, not meaning anyone in particular. It was more about expressing my misunderstanding of extreme and sometimes aggressive feminism.


    Edited on 02/08/2012 4:31pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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    SoSeriously

    [287]Feb 8, 2012
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    @SoSeriously You sound like you are deliberately trying to wind people up. Why didn't you just ask what peoples thoughts are generally about the character and why some people don't like her, if that's all you wondered about? Instead of continuing to assume there's a deeper meaning that people aren't saying behind their opinion of Gwen while phrasing it like an accusation.



    Only I'm not assuming anything. I think most of us can admit that psychology is a science. Human nature has been studied and results are in...there is meaning behind everything we say and do, even the words we choose...So if someone says something that is contradictory to known fact there is a reason for that. I said what I meant. If you read into what I meant the reading is yours. If there is greater meaning behind what we say and do...and there is...then how is it accusation to say let's go deeper.



    For instance I don't like Gauis. It's because he was an enabler and seems to be leading Merlin down the same road. Yes, some can say that he was trying to sway Uther as best he could. My problem with that is that he gained by not speaking out against Uther. I tend to think in terms of all of nothing(one of my many faults) but I recognize that this flaw makes it harder for me to immediately see the middle ground. That flaw likely stems from being raised in a military family. So you see my tendency to have a strict moral code comes from how I was socialized and informs my rigid expectations of how a good selfless person behaves. Recognizing that helps me to understand how others can see gray in his character...a deeper conversation. I can't help why you see shadows where there are non...you'll need to figure that out for yourself.


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    BrightlyLit

    [288]Feb 8, 2012
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    wilfeli wrote:

    @BrightlyLit


    I was thinking out loud that I see this POV often on Internet, not meaning anyone in particular. It was more about expressing my misunderstanding of extreme and sometimes aggressive feminism.




    Ok. Sorry about that. I've been on the net extensively and particularly in Arwen circles and fortunately I haven't seen that POV at all because I don't agree with it. Thanks for clearing it up because I wouldn't want it thought that I feel that way. I think we do agree that Gwen's best position is that of a supporter at any rate.

    Cheers.
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    SoSeriously

    [289]Feb 8, 2012
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    wilfeli wrote:


    I believe strongly that hard work should be rewarded, it doesn't always happen in real life, but I believe it's how it should be. Both Arthur, Merlin work very hard to become great King/Adviser, they study, make mistakes, try - I feel that they deserve respect for what they do, for how hard they work and study. And the same goes for any professional who spends his life trying to excell in his craft. It's respect for those who devote their lifes to their profession. As for Gwen - the way it's depicted, she isn't shown to actually study for her job as a Queen/Adviser, and thus I feel that by assuming that without proper traning she could be as good as Merlin in terms of advising someone on state matters or as good as Arthur leading armies or performing more broad administrative duties as King is disrespectful toward those who spend their life preparing for respected jobs. And the same could be applied to any situation in life. In general I do not think that being lucky without proper training and hard work should be respected as much as being devoted to your profession in terms of time and effort invested into it.



    As for implied, however slight they might have been or been the result of imprecise wording, accusations in racism, they are extremely insulting for me. My granduncle died defending my country against those who believed that people are different from birth and some belong to more advanced race/nation than another. To even assume such a thing is to betray memory and sacrifice of millions who died defending all of us.






    Very proud of you Grand Uncle but still don't see how anything was implied about race. You were the only one who brought it up...so it was on your mind...maybe you should wonder why.



    As to Arthur or Merlin working hard to be in their roles. Again I'm going to have to say what you're saying isn't really what we've seen. Merlin has been guided by Gaius whose advise hasn't been all that great to date but he has shown himself to be a loyal friend. I'm not saying Merlin's advise has been wrong...it hasn't but, it hasn't stemmed from hard work or study. It stems from Merlin's belief in fairness and equality. Merlin and Gwen give Arthur the same advise and like Merlin her wisdom comes from being grounded and wanting the best for the greater good. She, like Merlin believes that people should be judged by their character and ability...not limited because of the status of their birth or the powers they were born with.



    Lucky? Gwen hasn't been lucky. She has nearly died for her belief in Arthur's goodness. She has twice now shown herself willing to speak truth to power (not for herself) and almost died as a consequence. If she hadn't demonstrated her bravery loyalty and understanding of right and wrong and support for Arthur he would not have loved her...that's not luck. Being born a Prince is luck...being born with magic is luck. Being born a servant willing to risk life to forward a view that all people are worthy has been hard work in every sense of the word.



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    PenguinSuzie

    [290]Feb 8, 2012
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    SoSeriously wrote:
    I can't help why you see shadows where there are non...you'll need to figure that out for yourself.
    It's comments like that and your continued use of the '... just saying' that leads me to think you're intentionally trying to invoke a negative response. I don't know, maybe it just sounds negative only to me.
    SoSeriously wrote:
    I think most of us can admit that psychology is a science. Human nature has been studied and results are in...there is meaning behind everything we say and do, even the words we choose...
    There are meanings, but that doesn't mean that we're hiding a meaning behind things. It's fine to ask someone the reasons for something, the meaning. It's continuing to phrase it as 'deeper meaning' as if someone is hiding their true reasons that sounds like an accusation.
    SoSeriously wrote:
    Only I'm not assuming anything.
    Then why do you continue to ask if there's a deeper meaning, even when people say there isn't?
    SoSeriously wrote:
    Yes, some can say that he was trying to sway Uther as best he could. My problem with that is that he gained by not speaking out against Uther.
    If he had spoken out though, he'd have died too and he'd never have had a chance to save a single person. Never mind the many that he helped during the war.
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    wilfeli

    [291]Feb 8, 2012
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    SoSeriously wrote:


    As to Arthur or Merlin working hard to be in their roles. Again I'm going to have to say what you're saying isn't really what we've seen. Merlin has been guided by Gaius whose advise hasn't been all that great to date but he has shown himself to be a loyal friend. I'm not saying Merlin's advise has been wrong...it hasn't but, it hasn't stemmed from hard work or study. It stems from Merlin's belief in fairness and equality. Merlin and Gwen give Arthur the same advise and like Merlin her wisdom comes from being grounded and wanting the best for the greater good. She, like Merlin believes that people should be judged by their character and ability...not limited because of the status of their birth or the powers they were born with.



    Lucky? Gwen hasn't been lucky. She has nearly died for her belief in Arthur's goodness. She has twice now shown herself willing to speak truth to power (not for herself) and almost died as a consequence. If she hadn't demonstrated her bravery loyalty and understanding of right and wrong and support for Arthur he would not have loved her...that's not luck. Being born a Prince is luck...being born with magic is luck. Being born a servant willing to risk life to forward a view that all people are worthy has been hard work in every sense of the word.



    We have seen occasions when Gaius explains to Merlin why some decisions are made, more in s4 - this I call teaching him, we see that Merlin is working as manservant and personal secretary for gods sake! for demanding master and at the same times studies physicians' stuff, let alone learns how to control his magic, that I would call really hard work. We are not shown anything resembling that about Gwen, she is literally floundering around with flowers or doing beds (well it's hard work, but not for future adviser/queen, lessons in current laws and etiquette are more appropriate for that) in major part of s4. She was caring for Uther but nothing for me implies that she was being trained in physician/adviser stuff by Gaius, more like unskilled nurse level of care.


    I don't know how willingness to stand up to powers could be part of formal training in administrative/military skills, it's character trait that could contribute to being good leader, but for me can't replace missing knowledge and apprenticeship. Some think that being "good" character (can't find better word) could compensate for lack of formal training, I think that it can't, not when we are talking about CEO level positions.


    I do not question her ability to be good wife: supporting, giving wise advise in general, it's her ability to be good ruling Queen right now that I doubt.


    Merlin isn't ideal adviser yet, but he is being trained to eventually become one, Gwen isn't and shouldn't if we assume that her role is to be his heart so to speak. One doesn't train heart Surprised


    And Gwen is lucky - she was born beautiful and sexually attractive, to the point when we are shown that everyone falls for her. In 4x11 - when Helios let's her leave him, before Morgana comes, I don't think that he will be so understanding if she wasn't extremely attractive and sexual, such freedoms in his world I believe are allowed only to prized trophies.


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    SoSeriously

    [292]Feb 9, 2012
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    SoSeriously wrote:
    I can't help why you see shadows where there are non...you'll need to figure that out for yourself.
    It's comments like that and your continued use of the '... just saying' that leads me to think you're intentionally trying to invoke a negative response. I don't know, maybe it just sounds negative only to me.
    SoSeriously wrote:
    I think most of us can admit that psychology is a science. Human nature has been studied and results are in...there is meaning behind everything we say and do, even the words we choose...
    There are meanings, but that doesn't mean that we're hiding a meaning behind things. It's fine to ask someone the reasons for something, the meaning. It's continuing to phrase it as 'deeper meaning' as if someone is hiding their true reasons that sounds like an accusation.
    SoSeriously wrote:
    Only I'm not assuming anything.
    Then why do you continue to ask if there's a deeper meaning, even when people say there isn't?
    SoSeriously wrote:
    Yes, some can say that he was trying to sway Uther as best he could. My problem with that is that he gained by not speaking out against Uther.
    If he had spoken out though, he'd have died too and he'd never have had a chance to save a single person. Never mind the many that he helped during the war.



    A. How I choose to express myself is not up to you...Just saying


    B. If we argue against known fact...it does...but I think (I haven't) if you look back...you'll find that hidden is your word...not mine.


    C. Hmm not really sure what you mean. For me the only point of discussing something as subjective as art is to exchange ideas behind it's meaning that's why I like depth rather than superficial discussions. Every view regardless of how they will be perceived should be open. This character is never going to be pivotal and she is being portrayed as just about every love interest ever is...and for me it's meaningless to say I don't like her because she is portrayed as what she is...so I'm all let's dig deeper. Why does that offend you?


    D. Yes I realize this too but stay and enable or die were not the only options. I only ever heard Gaius speak truth to Uther after Uther almost killed him. Sure he spoke up for others but never once did he push Uther to be a better person at risk to himself...I find that to be cowardice. Because if you enable him and have no real ability to sway him from wrong and you are benefiting from the association...to me you are an accomplice. So leave


    There was the choice to leave. It's like Gaius was a battered spouse.


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    SoSeriously

    [293]Feb 9, 2012
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    Maybe I wasn't clear. They only person who has military training is Arthur and the knights. Merlin has learned about medicines from Gaius and been told why Uther took certain actions...and giving information of magical artifacts and creatures...non of that is training to be a ceo or military leader. Gwen doesn't need to be shown learning Camelot history as she has grown up there and in the court so one would assume she knows Uther and the basics of it's history. Like Arthur she knows nothing of magic. I just can't see any real truth in your logic.



    My real point however is there is no training that Gwen or Merlin have that would prepare either of them for being a military leader or ceo. They both however understand and people and have a desire to see Camelot be a land of justice tolerance and equality. To say that Merlins writing a speech for Arthur better prepares him to listen to the advise of council and make an informed decision based on what he believes to be best for the greater good of Camelot in my opinion is baseless and flawed. Because while she hasn't written a speach for Arthur...she has encouraged him to understand that despite all the complexity in the end all decisions have to be based on what you believe in your heart to be right. Lucky for her and us...when she and Merlin have given Arthur this advise and he has listened all has turned out ok. So if listening to council and then doing what he knows in his heart to be right even when it goes against council has turned out okay for Arthur...why would we assume that Gwen listening to the advise of council and then making a decision based on what she knows to be right in her heart be any different.



    They need a basic understanding of their goals and objectives informed opinions of experts (council) and the ability to think logically. That's it and it's a good thing because no matter how you stretch it neither of them have anything more. But If choose to believe that knowing how to set a broken arm gives Merlin a hand up in deciding who stole farmer A's pig or what course of action to take if Arthur is away and Oden's army is approaching...more power to you.

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    wilfeli

    [294]Feb 9, 2012
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    SoSeriously wrote:


    Maybe I wasn't clear. They only person who has military training is Arthur and the knights. Merlin has learned about medicines from Gaius and been told why Uther took certain actions...and giving information of magical artifacts and creatures...non of that is training to be a ceo or military leader.



    Of course not, and I can't understand either you can't hear me or simply don't want. I never told that Merlin will be good King, but he is trained heavily to be general adviser/court physician/court magician, she isn't trained to be either of them. For that alone Merlin should be respected for all the had work he puts into it, while she can't be respected for that, because she shows no adequate effort. It doesn't mean that she shouldn't be respected as is, just not as a hard working professional.



    SoSeriously wrote:


    Gwen doesn't need to be shown learning Camelot history as she has grown up there and in the court so one would assume she knows Uther and the basics of it's history. Like Arthur she knows nothing of magic. I just can't see any real truth in your logic.



    That's horrifying for me, as I said we clearly disagree on very fundamental level. For me it's essential for King to know not only facts of history, but also why such decisions were made, for you it isn't part of what should be learned. As servant she won't be in the position to know more than basics, again my advocate example - she knows as little as every one of us about laws, but you are assuming that she could be effective advocate. I personally would run as fast as possible from anyone who claims that he could do the job as complex as that with as little knowledge and experience as you assume.



    SoSeriously wrote:


    My real point however is there is no training that Gwen or Merlin have that would prepare either of them for being a military leader or ceo.



    So-so, for Gwen surely, for Merlin I never implied that, read my post again. I was talking that both Merlin and Arthur put a lot of effort and learn how to do their respective jobs and will be good at it. Gwen isn't trained so she will be bad at being ruling Queen, but could still be good as adviser on the matter of the heart.



    SoSeriously wrote:


    They both however understand and people and have a desire to see Camelot be a land of justice tolerance and equality. To say that Merlins writing a speech for Arthur better prepares him to listen to the advise of council and make an informed decision based on what he believes to be best for the greater good of Camelot in my opinion is baseless and flawed.



    In yours, in my it's important part of becoming adviser.



    SoSeriously wrote:


    Because while she hasn't written a speach for Arthur...she has encouraged him to understand that despite all the complexity in the end all decisions have to be based on what you believe in your heart to be right. Lucky for her and us...when she and Merlin have given Arthur this advise and he has listened all has turned out ok. So if listening to council and then doing what he knows in his heart to be right even when it goes against council has turned out okay for Arthur...why would we assume that Gwen listening to the advise of council and then making a decision based on what she knows to be right in her heart be any different.



    Yes, the key part here is listen to his heart, the problem you conveniently overlook is that because he is heavily trained there are multiple solutions in his "heart", he knows what are the options, what are the consequences (Well not always, but he is learning), and so could make an informed decision. But there is nothing like that in her heart, simply because she has no knowledge of administrative/military stuff! You know, someone has to learn a lot before his heart will be providing him with alternative battle plans/laws/etc...



    SoSeriously wrote:


    They need a basic understanding of their goals and objectives informed opinions of experts (council) and the ability to think logically. That's it and it's a good thing because no matter how you stretch it neither of them have anything more. But If choose to believe that knowing how to set a broken arm gives Merlin a hand up in deciding who stole farmer A's pig or what course of action to take if Arthur is away and Oden's army is approaching...more power to you.



    Again advocate example - being judge isn't as simple as you try to present it, not on this level. An please do not twist what I said, Merlin is being trained by Gaius on laws, customs, how to be efficient adviser as well as being trained to be a physician. So now Merlin has more, simply because every time when he is shown to be in his room - there are books, he is reading, while Gwen at the same time is washing clothes or sewing.



    And I agree with PenguinSuzie you are clearly wording your answers such that they are insulting, twist what other persons say, and then blame them for misunderstanding you. And of course never apologize if you have insulted someone, even if it was as you claim unintentional, never the less apology is usually expected in such cases along with explanation of what you actually meant, while you continue accusing people of having hidden motives. But still I feel that stressing importance of being hard working professional and respecting such people is important enough to be typed.

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  • Avatar of JJuna

    JJuna

    [296]Feb 11, 2012
    • member since: 06/17/11
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 919

    Well, this show does seem to evoke strong reactions in its viewers. SoSeriously, I agree with your analysis of Gwen's character and potential, based on what we have seen so far. You present a cogent argument, although it's a shame that it's marred by rudeness.


    SoSeriously wrote:


    A. How I choose to express myself is not up to you...Just saying



    That may be so, but in this forum we try to be polite and respectful towards other contributors, even when we disagree with them. It's just a matter of common courtesy, and makes the forum more pleasant for everyone.

    Edited on 02/11/2012 7:47pm
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  • Avatar of Sparklingwater

    Sparklingwater

    [297]Feb 12, 2012
    • member since: 09/29/11
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 139

    I don't quite understand what people are fighting for. After all, it's just a tv show and the characters will only do and will only be capable of what TPTB give them. We had deep and intensive discussions here about certain characters and situations on the show but I always think that discussing on a personal level is not necessary. While there are those who even insult "politely" and then those who get warned simply because they disagree with others, I think it is not a good idea to play the racism card at all.


    At first, SoSeriously, when you wrote your suggestion about the "real* reasons why some people supposedly dislike Gwen, I thought you meant because she is a woman. My second thought was that you are referring to the skin color. Since I'm a woman myself, I surely can't discriminate her just for being a woman, so a thought that comes to one's mind does not indicate anything like this. There is only so much you could have meant when writing that there might be specific reasons. I know that there are indeed trolls in the internet who sadly have a problem with dark skin colors on that show. It's a shame and I for one just ignore them because it is too stupid.


    I really like Gwen, always have, but for my taste she has become a bit too submissive. Nevertheless I agree with you that she is much more than just meets the eye and that she would make a great queen in every way, not just in being a good wife and mother, which is always such a clichee and which I don't like whith women on tv. I prefer strong female characters who can do a lot more than just pleasing the man and being a mother. The next season won't happen to me (unless Uther and Lancelot come back) but I hope for the fans of Gwen that TPTB will give her the more confident and competent part she deserves instead of portraying her as a nice little woman who does what her king tells her, arranging some flowers and taking care of the day-to-day things. She already has shown what she can do and how smart she is. I also think that when it comes to strategical things, she will make the right decisions because she combines emotion with logic - and that is always a good basis for deciding wisely. Arthur and Gwen are supposed to complete each other and hopefully for all the fans, TPTB will give them the right stories to show that.

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  • Avatar of chilipalm

    chilipalm

    [298]Feb 12, 2012
    • member since: 07/16/03
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 35

    Did her boobs grow in season 4? Certainly an improvement over her average looks.

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  • Avatar of wilfeli

    wilfeli

    [299]Feb 12, 2012
    • member since: 09/21/11
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 255

    chilipalm wrote:


    Did her boobs grow in season 4? Certainly an improvement over her average looks.



    It's called push-up bra, could do wonderful things to one's figure.

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  • Avatar of BrightlyLit

    BrightlyLit

    [300]Feb 12, 2012
    • member since: 03/21/11
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 236

    JJuna wrote:


    Well, this show does seem to evoke strong reactions in its viewers. SoSeriously, I agree with your analysis of Gwen's character and potential, based on what we have seen so far. You present a cogent argument, although it's a shame that it's marred by rudeness.


    SoSeriously wrote:


    A. How I choose to express myself is not up to you...Just saying



    That may be so, but in this forum we try to be polite and respectful towards other contributors, even when we disagree with them. It's just a matter of common courtesy, and makes the forum more pleasant for everyone.



    Thanks for this, JJ. Well said. I could not agree more.



    chilipalm wrote:


    Did her boobs grow in season 4? Certainly an improvement over her average looks.



    Not sure how to take this comment. I certainly hope this is not a low blow aimed at Angel. If so, shame on you.


    I sure hope everyone plays fair on this thread in the future. I've been getting a somewhat sour smell in the air and hope it clears up. As someone said this is only a TV show, totally unrelated to real life. We have producers, writers, and actors who are working hard to provide entertainment for all of us and while I'd be the first to admit I'm sometimes disappointed with the results, they certainly don't deserve rudeness coming from their "fans." Rude and unkind fans are the losers, not the actors.

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