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BBC (ended 2012)

The Queen of Clean - Guinevere thread

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    ACDiNosey

    [121]Apr 9, 2011
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    Hello peak_a_bu and welcome to the forum

    For future reference, please note that this particular thread is dedicated to Gwen and/or Angel Coulby as an actress. If you have any questions, these should be addressed to the Q&A thread in the first instance.


    In case of any doubt, you can go through the Posting Rules threads, which are also pinned at the top of the page, so you can know where you post what. You can also pm me anytime.


    In answer to your question, the show has been recommissionned for a 4th season and filming has started recently. The 4th series will comprise 13 episodes and will air in the UK in the autumn.

    Have fun around!

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    dpebbleson

    [122]Apr 9, 2011
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    Lmao, this is either a highly skilled impersonation of Esther, or it's a tv.com glitch
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    boom-moo

    [123]Apr 10, 2011
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    Editor's note: Asking Gwen (or Angel Coulby) related questions/topics in here is fine, but not random questions concerning other aspects/characters of the show.

    We appreciate all contributions but we also like to follow the rules and keep a clear and accesible forum for new users to easily find their way around, let alone to comply to the site regulations. In case of any doubt, you can go through the Posting Rules threads, which are pinned at the top of the page, so you can know where you post what. You can also pm me anytime.

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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [124]Sep 9, 2011
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    Hello All,


    I think this is my first time posting even though I have been lurking for quite some time. I have a few thoughts I'd like to make so here they are.


    I think where the writers went wrong with A/G relationship is from the very first show.


    Arthur and Gwenwere depicted as not even being aware of of each other on a personal level. Arthur had this infatuation with Morgana and Gwen seemed very attracted to Merlin. That would have worked for Gwen but it should not have for Arthur. He should have show bits of physical attraction to her as a prince might to a servant girl but it being purely as someone to have a fling with not as a real love interest. Princes are expected to "sow their wild oats" and as Uthur stated..."the temptations of servant girls". Then when Arthur spent all that time at her house he discovers her on a more personal level, he likes who she is and finds himself wanting to change her opinion of him. The rest of the shows of their relationship will make more sense. It least to me it would.


    As for Elyan and nobility...my understanding is thatthe king can 'create" nobility by giving a family a coat of arms. When a man becomes a knight he is awarded a coat of arms as proof of his status. His family...i.e.parents, siblings and future offspring become nobility as the house of "whatever". Thus Gwen as his sister is now nobility.Gwaine is nobility by virtue of his father being a Knight. In addition we saw this twice withMerlin creating a cost of arms for Lancelot and with Sir William. This happened in real life with Jehanne D'Arc, who by the way called herself Joan the maid.


    Lastly, as for Gwen's story of her motherand Sir Leon's family...the writers never gave us any information about Gwen's mother not even a name for her. Gwen's mother's story is completely open. Sir Leon's family could have been nobility with Uther for years and years right there in Camelot and even before Uther was King of Camelot. It's also possible that Sir Leon's family fought with Uther to take Camelot and Uther made them nobility because of this loyalty to him. Seems to me Uther's refusal of making "commoners" knights was based on him being the one to award such and expecting Arthur not to beyond those Uther had decided to knight and who has already been nobility from other areas. I may be wrong in this but I seem to remember Uther being a warrior and taking Camelot, not being born to it as the son of royalty.


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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [125]Sep 9, 2011
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    Hello RosyHello, welcome

    He should have show bits of physical attraction to her as a prince might to a servant girl but it being purely as someone to have a fling with not as a real love interest. Princes are expected to "sow their wild oats" and as Uther stated..."the temptations of servant girls". I don't think that's true of everyone.

    Uther's refusal of making "commoners" knights was based on him being the one to award such and expecting Arthur not to beyond those Uther had decided to knight and who has already been nobility from other areas. In 1x05 we learn that the first code of Camelot is a secret bond of trust binding the knights together. It states that only those of noble blood can serve as a knight. Uther created the knights to protect the kingdom and he knew he'd had to trust each of his knights with his life so he chose them from the families who'd sworn allegiance to him. The knighthood is the foundation of Camelot.

    I may be wrong in this but I seem to remember Uther being a warrior and taking Camelot, not being born to it as the son of royalty. You are right, in 3x11 he says that he didn't inherit Camelot and that he conquered it by the sword at Arthur's age.
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    boom-moo

    [129]Sep 10, 2011
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    It is not clear if Uther chose his knights from noble families or from any family that had proven loyal to him. In any case, it will only be Arthur's morals/sense of duty/honour to tradition... however you like to put it which prevents him from making his own rules as he sees more fit.

    For starters he's told Gwen that once he is King things will be different, so he doesn't seem all that determined to be of one mind with his father. The fact that he bestowed knighthoods among commoners is already a rule broken.

    I think Uther's preaching is always gonna bear some weight on Arthur's mind but I see him being his very own man/king.

    And Guinevere discussion only here, please
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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [130]Sep 10, 2011
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    You are right. It's gone. Thanks again.

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  • Avatar of chrolligal

    chrolligal

    [131]Sep 12, 2011
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    For me Guinevere has never overcome her future self in the audience's eyes and isn't working as a character yet. Morgana was better written her terror at discovering she had powers was heartbreaking to watch and her loneliness and everyone around her who could have helped not was well played.. ergo we saw exactly why she went bad.


    Poor Gwen however is written as just a nice'ish girl who's flirted with Merlin/Lancelot/Gwaine as well as Arthur and who we know will betray him in the end. She's been privy to Arthur doing all his brave deeds and naturally she now admires and loves him but what has been written to show why she is worthy of his love....nothing imo


    We saw Arthur notice her and she brave and kind but we have not been a real reason for him fall in love unless as Bradley says it's because she's the ONLY women in Camelot lol


    The fact she has any likability is down to Angel's acting and own personality because the writers have given her little to work with. It would have been better had she been written as kinda bad and wanting Arthur out of ambition but actually loving Lancelot and in the end then choosing her real love would be her redemption not her downfall as a character.

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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [132]Sep 12, 2011
    • member since: 08/25/11
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    For me Guinevere has never overcome her future self in the audience's eyes and isn't working as a character yet. Morgana was better written her terror at discovering she had powers was heartbreaking to watch and her loneliness and everyone around her who could have helped not was well played.. ergo we saw exactly why she went bad.


    I think you're right about never overcoming her "future self" in the eyes of the audience because "the audience" doesn't want to for what ever reason. They can accept Merlin being the same general age as Authur and that Guinevere is a servant, Morgana is not Mordred's mother and that Uther is Morgana's father but not that Guinevere, in this case, Gwen, is most likely NOT to have a sexual relationship with Lancelot and hurt Arthur. But I think "the audience" is conveniently forgetting that in the legends Guinevere was never a servant (that I know of) and her relationship with Arthur was a result of an arranged, forced, politicalmarriage. While Arthur fell in love with her, she didn't have the deep feelings for him. Thus in that scenario her relationship with Lancelot makes sense. That's the danger of arranged marriages. In the legends Lancelot WAS her love but she was forced to marry Arthur. Again, to meher relationship with Lancelot makes sense.


    But that is not what we have with thistelling of the story. The Writers here have created a scenario in which real love, deep feelings and emtions are developing for Gwen towards Arthur and not with Lancelot. Our Guinevere IS falling in love with the Arthur. These two are creating their own relationship not being forced into it for politacial reasons. Her Arthur and Gwen's angst has nothing to do with an arranged marrige but with Gwen being considered the wrong woman for him because she is a servant. If Arthur had married Princess Elena I can clearly see where Elena and not Guinvere would have been the one to cheat on him. They clearly didn't love each other.I agree with our Arthur, love should always come before marriage. It's makes for a better committment to that marriage.


    Poor Gwen however is written as just a nice'ish girl who's flirted with Merlin/Lancelot/Gwaine as well as Arthur and who we know will betray him in the end. She's been privy to Arthur doing all his brave deeds and naturally she now admires and loves him but what has been written to show why she is worthy of his love....nothing imo.


    Here I have to disagree. Our Gwen never flirted with Lancelot, Arthur and definately NOT with Gwaine. She did seem to have a special likely for Merlin but I see that as amazing love based on friendship only. I've had those kinds of relationships. I don't see myself in a intimate relationship with them but I love them nevertheless. Her kissing Merlin worked because of her fear of him dying. I have felt that as will so I completely understand it.


    Now in season one Morgana clearly flirted with Arthur to the point that it made me uncomfortable. It just looked kinds whore-ish. I also heard Katie say in an early interview that the producers asked her to "tone down the flirting with Arthur." Not that time none of us know the writers would make her his half sister. As for Gwen being "nice'ish" I don't see that is a debtiment to her character. There has to be a counterpoint to Morgana's ulta evil and it see the writers creating a Guinvere who would not cheap on Arthur because of her nature. for me this Gwen wouldn't do that to any major degree. If the audience can let these writers write their own Guinvere I believe they also will see this.


    I believe Arthur being worthy of her is more is a much more correct statement than the other way around. Arthur is the prat, the arrogant prince, the rude and demanding royal depicted in the early episodes. In fact Gwen states she believes he's an arrogant ass or something like that. Our Merlin would completely agree with that statement. As for Arthur, he was completely rude to her in her own home thus forcing her into telling him about himself. The writers have clearly shown that has an amazing affect on him. No one had ever told him what they really thought about him. Gwen did at a risk harm to herself. That one statement of her being honest with him would cause him to respect her and want to change her opinion of him. For me it makes sense that his personal feelings for her would develop from that.




    We saw Arthur notice her and she brave and kind but we have not been a real reason for him fall in love unless as Bradley says it's because she's the ONLY women in Camelot lol.


    Here again I disagree. Bradley can say what he wants but I for one have seen many women in Camelot but not one of them written in the show to interact with him. That's not here nor there. Arthur on the other hand has had several woman in his life that was written as a possible other love interest. But the writers made sure those relationships didn't and wouldn't work. And it's possible we will see more so that Arthur's committment to Gwen will be clearly shown. But for me I do believe there were missed beats in their relationship that would have help the audience believe in him falling in love with her and she him. Maybe that will be fixed as the show goes forward.


    The fact she has any likability is down to Angel's acting and own personality because the writers have given her little to work with. It would have been better had she been written as kinda bad and wanting Arthur out of ambition but actually loving Lancelot and in the end then choosing her real love would be her redemption not her downfall as a character.


    I agree, Angel is an amazing actress who has towork with what is given her and how the directors direct her. But I do disagree that she should be written "kinda bad" and wanting Arthur for ambitious reasons verses love reasons. That would take Gwen in another direction that the writers of this scenario is obviously not wanting to go. That would take her back into the area of possibily cheating on him with Lancelot, which is the way you want to take her. To me the writers are not going that way with her. In this telling of the story Gwen is clearly the love of his life and for her, he clearly has her whole heart.


    Please forgive any typos.




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  • Avatar of chrolligal

    chrolligal

    [133]Sep 12, 2011
    • member since: 09/11/11
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    RosyHello wrote:


    For me Guinevere has never overcome her future self in the audience's eyes and isn't working as a character yet. Morgana was better written her terror at discovering she had powers was heartbreaking to watch and her loneliness and everyone around her who could have helped not was well played.. ergo we saw exactly why she went bad.


    I think you're right about never overcoming her "future self" in the eyes of the audience because "the audience" doesn't want to for what ever reason. They can accept Merlin being the same general age as Authur and that Guinevere is a servant, Morgana is not Mordred's mother and that Uther is Morgana's father but not that Guinevere, in this case, Gwen, is most likely NOT to have a sexual relationship with Lancelot and hurt Arthur. But I think "the audience" is conveniently forgetting that in the legends Guinevere was never a servant (that I know of) and her relationship with Arthur was a result of an arranged, forced, politicalmarriage. While Arthur fell in love with her, she didn't have the deep feelings for him. Thus in that scenario her relationship with Lancelot makes sense. That's the danger of arranged marriages. In the legends Lancelot WAS her love but she was forced to marry Arthur. Again, to meher relationship with Lancelot makes sense.


    But that is not what we have with thistelling of the story. The Writers here have created a scenario in which real love, deep feelings and emtions are developing for Gwen towards Arthur and not with Lancelot. Our Guinevere IS falling in love with the Arthur. These two are creating their own relationship not being forced into it for politacial reasons. Her Arthur and Gwen's angst has nothing to do with an arranged marrige but with Gwen being considered the wrong woman for him because she is a servant. If Arthur had married Princess Elena I can clearly see where Elena and not Guinvere would have been the one to cheat on him. They clearly didn't love each other.I agree with our Arthur, love should always come before marriage. It's makes for a better committment to that marriage.


    Poor Gwen however is written as just a nice'ish girl who's flirted with Merlin/Lancelot/Gwaine as well as Arthur and who we know will betray him in the end. She's been privy to Arthur doing all his brave deeds and naturally she now admires and loves him but what has been written to show why she is worthy of his love....nothing imo.


    Here I have to disagree. Our Gwen never flirted with Lancelot, Arthur and definately NOT with Gwaine. She did seem to have a special likely for Merlin but I see that as amazing love based on friendship only. I've had those kinds of relationships. I don't see myself in a intimate relationship with them but I love them nevertheless. Her kissing Merlin worked because of her fear of him dying. I have felt that as will so I completely understand it.


    Now in season one Morgana clearly flirted with Arthur to the point that it made me uncomfortable. It just looked kinds whore-ish. I also heard Katie say in an early interview that the producers asked her to "tone down the flirting with Arthur." Not that time none of us know the writers would make her his half sister. As for Gwen being "nice'ish" I don't see that is a debtiment to her character. There has to be a counterpoint to Morgana's ulta evil and it see the writers creating a Guinvere who would not cheap on Arthur because of her nature. for me this Gwen wouldn't do that to any major degree. If the audience can let these writers write their own Guinvere I believe they also will see this.


    I believe Arthur being worthy of her is more is a much more correct statement than the other way around. Arthur is the prat, the arrogant prince, the rude and demanding royal depicted in the early episodes. In fact Gwen states she believes he's an arrogant ass or something like that. Our Merlin would completely agree with that statement. As for Arthur, he was completely rude to her in her own home thus forcing her into telling him about himself. The writers have clearly shown that has an amazing affect on him. No one had ever told him what they really thought about him. Gwen did at a risk harm to herself. That one statement of her being honest with him would cause him to respect her and want to change her opinion of him. For me it makes sense that his personal feelings for her would develop from that.



    We saw Arthur notice her and she brave and kind but we have not been a real reason for him fall in love unless as Bradley says it's because she's the ONLY women in Camelot lol.


    Here again I disagree. Bradley can say what he wants but I for one have seen many women in Camelot but not one of them written in the show to interact with him. That's not here nor there. Arthur on the other hand has had several woman in his life that was written as a possible other love interest. But the writers made sure those relationships didn't and wouldn't work. And it's possible we will see more so that Arthur's committment to Gwen will be clearly shown. But for me I do believe there were missed beats in their relationship that would have help the audience believe in him falling in love with her and she him. Maybe that will be fixed as the show goes forward.


    The fact she has any likability is down to Angel's acting and own personality because the writers have given her little to work with. It would have been better had she been written as kinda bad and wanting Arthur out of ambition but actually loving Lancelot and in the end then choosing her real love would be her redemption not her downfall as a character.


    I agree, Angel is an amazing actress who has towork with what is given her and how the directors direct her. But I do disagree that she should be written "kinda bad" and wanting Arthur for ambitious reasons verses love reasons. That would take Gwen in another direction that the writers of this scenario is obviously not wanting to go. That would take her back into the area of possibily cheating on him with Lancelot, which is the way you want to take her. To me the writers are not going that way with her. In this telling of the story Gwen is clearly the love of his life and for her, he clearly has her whole heart.


    Please forgive any typos.





    The problem is that although the writers made her a servant the rest of the story must remain unchanged and the writers acknowledge this...Guinevere will leave Arthur for Lancelot and therefore she does not love Arthur with her whole heart.


    She totally flirted with Gwaine and preferred Lancelot to Arthur right up to and during the rescue of her and her brother and it's only quite recently she appears to have fallen seriously for Arthur. I don't know how the writers will play it, perhaps they will have magic play it's part in disrupting Arthur/Gwen in the short term to defer the real adultery storyline so it is just a future as yet unseen but hinted at that takes place after Merlin ( the show)ends.


    As for it being only a 'possibly' that she cheats or your view that the writers don't want to go in that direction i'm afraid that you are wrong and that has never been an option, she will and does cheat and leave Arthur for Lancelot . The writers may want to delay or avoid showing it at all but they are not attempting to deny that it will happen...it's like writing for Smallville you can allow some changes like having Clark meet Lex and be his friend whilst they are young but in the end Lex must become Clark's enemy and this is understood and acknowledged from the first episode.


    The idea that Guinevere stays with Arthur is just a NO GO.


    Angel plays her part beautifully but for her sake I hope they let her give her better characterisation this season. Until we get a major hint or see some motivation as to why she might betray Arthur in the future she will appear as an unsympathetic character no matter how kind and loyal she is in the present.

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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [134]Sep 13, 2011
    • member since: 08/25/11
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    I really don't want to go back and forward with this because to me this is just a TV show. But I do want to reply to several of your points.


    The problem is that although the writers made her a servant the rest of the story must remain unchanged and the writers acknowledge this...Guinevere will leave Arthur for Lancelot and therefore she does not love Arthur with her whole heart.


    Well, I would guess that would have to depend on which "rest of the story" we are talking about. From what I'm aware of there a many accounts of Guinvere. Some considered historical and some are legend. Historical accounts have no Lancelot at all and in fact the oldest versions do not. Legend accounts started witha guy named Troy or Toryes who create the character of Lancelot and the whole story of adultery almost 1000 years after the original accounts that had no Lancelot at all. That was possibly to add drama and intringe to his story. In addition some of these more "modern" versions have Morgan Le Fey putting an enchartment on Lancelot and Guinvere to create the affair, as Guinvere was her main targetand she does many thingsagainst Guinvere in several of the accounts.


    BBC's version could go with any of these accounts or make up their own very different version of Guinvere's life which we have already seen they have and are doing. Just because we know what has already been written doesn't mean we know what will be written for this show. That's the beauty of it. Too many "established" details about these characters have already been changed by the BBC to think we know what they will write. We don't know how they will treat their verisonand thus viewers have to continue to watch to find out. If we already know what will happen where's the interest to watch this show?


    She totally flirted with Gwaine and preferred Lancelot to Arthur right up to and during the rescue of her and her brother and it's only quite recently she appears to have fallen seriously for Arthur. I don't know how the writers will play it, perhaps they will have magic play it's part in disrupting Arthur/Gwen in the short term to defer the real adultery storyline so it is just a future as yet unseen but hinted at that takes place after Merlin ( the show)ends.


    In 3X04 Gwaine or "Gawaine" - We see some major flirting from Gwaine when Guinvere past by him without a glance. Then there was the conversation in whichGwaine could clearly see Gwen's feelings for Arthur and blamed that on his striking out with her. This was well before 3X07 - The Castle of Fryan. It is not until the very end of 3X04 in which Gwentouched Gwaine'schest and I believe kissed his cheek. If you which to call that flirting I'll go along with that. But you also have to remember Gwaine had just killed two men to save Arthur's life. I also see her as counting him as a friend and he was leaving. Hugging a friend and kissing them on the cheek is something many people do when a good friend is leaving. Besides it made for a great jealousy scene and I'm all for see a jealous Arthur. A jealous Arthur is a sexy Arthur.


    As for her preferring Lancelot to Arthur up to and during3x07, I don'tsee that. Gwen met Lancelot during season1 andhe was the first guy in this series thatmade it clear he cared for her. Arthur had eyes for Morgana during this time and he wasn't even a possibiltyin her mind back then. Again, Lancelot became very important to herduring that time but there was no relationship at all with Arthurin season 1.It wasn't until2X02- The Once and Future Queen that both Gwen and Arthur realized there just might be something but at the end of that Arthur told her there couldn't be anything. That left her free again which leads up to2X07(I believe) - Lancelot and Guinvere.


    In that episode, both Lancelot and Arthur work at staying Gwen, this is part ofmany accounts of legend where it'seither Lancelot or Arthur that saves her from Melus or something like that but never both of them together. In addition it was written asafter Guninvere's marriage to Arthur and not before. But without going through every episode, from 2X02 on we see tiny bits of Gwen falling for Arthur and he for her. Lancelot was gone and she had no idea whether she would see him again. Merlin saw it all and realized just how much both Gwen and Arthur were starting to care for each other. But even at the end of 2X07 Arthur again let her go by saying he saved her because Morgana asked. Talk about mixed messages here.


    As for it being only a 'possibly' that she cheats or your view that the writers don't want to go in that direction i'm afraid that you are wrong and that has never been an option, she will and does cheat and leave Arthur for Lancelot . The writers may want to delay or avoid showing it at all but they are not attempting to deny that it will happen...it's like writing for Smallville you can allow some changes like having Clark meet Lex and be his friend whilst they are young but in the end Lex must become Clark's enemy and this is understood and acknowledged from the first episode.


    Let's not make this personal, but I still see it as a possibly because this show for one is a family show and two the writers can go anyway they want to with this including enchantment and still keep to several accounts of the legend (not historical accounts). They could also go with an "affair" before the marriage of Gwen and Arthur and it be willing but how they write the circumstance around that it completely up to them Thus not really cheating on Arthur at all. They could write anything before the marriage and it would still be in line with the legend. As for adultery...their story doesn't take us in that direction. It just doesn't and I'm not saying that because I'm such a fan of Gwen because I'm not. I just like a good story that's interesting and she's a part of that story. Having written several published novels, several scripts and plays and currentlyworking for a publishing companyI can see where they are going with this where others may not.


    The idea that Guinevere stays with Arthur is just a NO GO.


    Maybe so, but then again, Merlin was never the same age as Arthur, Morgana or Morgan was never the daughter of Uther and I can go on and on.Guinvere's storycould go anyway they want it to go including she marrying Morded after he took Camelot and becoming his queen which ispart of one of the legends as well but I don't see that happening on Merlin either. That's largelybecause it would happen well after the story ends for them but also because they have made it so it couldn't. Therefore depending on how they want to go and the fact that they made Arthur and Gwen's story one of love and not arrangement would lead the viewer to see a deepening love story from both sides not just one sided.


    Personally, I wouldn't have gotten involved with Arthur at all. He has too much baggage, too many things could lead to death or major heartache. I would choose Lancelot over Arthur any day of the week. But this not my story so I have to accept what the writers of THIS version decide to do.


    Angel plays her part beautifully but for her sake I hope they let her give her better characterisation this season. Until we get a major hint or see some motivation as to why she might betray Arthur in the future she will appear as an unsympathetic character no matter how kind and loyal she is in the present.


    I agree Angel is great but as an actress you have to take what they give you in the script and play it the way it's written regardless. I have problems with the way their wrote Morgana and her motivations for hating people who were her friends and cried for her when she was sick. She turned on them for no real reason and that's unfair to her character. But if you like Katie you might easily defend her horribly evil acts as Morgana.


    Again, they don't have to go the way of adultery in the pure sense of the word.They may just make it very clearly that she would never betray Arthur in the future by making any number of things happen during their telling. They could have the "betrayal" happen before the marriage thus putting it completely to rest, who knows. They have that opinion and it can't be considered "wrong"because there are so many versions including versions with no Lancelot at all that it wouldn't be "incorrect". For me I'm cool with it all. And this being a family show I fully expect if there's a "betrayal" its not adultry or cheating. I maybe wrong and it wouldn't be the first time or the last but this is their story and they wouldn't be "incorrect" regardless.


    As for her being unsympathetic, that's for those who refuse to allow the BBC to create their own Guinvere and write their own telling of her story. Up until now their Gwen has donenothing to be disliked. In fact they have written her to be morally upright, kind and caring. What one would believe to be a queen and someone Arthurcould decide tomarry on his own and not be forced into it. But for those that want to dislike her can only use other versions of the story as their basis for the disliking and not the one Angel is in. For me that's unfair. I say let the BBC tell you who their Gwen is and like or or dislike her based on that.


    This is making me have to remember all that high school literture stuff and it's getting boring to me now so I'm on to something else. Take care.

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  • Avatar of Suagger

    Suagger

    [135]Sep 13, 2011
    • member since: 07/25/11
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    RosyHello, I agree with everything you said, I think both Morgana and Gwen have been poorly developed and the actors who play them especially Angel Coulby as Gwen have actually done a pretty good job with the material
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    dpebbleson

    [136]Sep 13, 2011
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    """"BBC's version could go with any of these accounts or make up their own very different version of Guinvere's life which we have already seen they have and are doing. Just because we know what has already been written doesn't mean we know what will be written for this show. That's the beauty of it.""""

    I fully agree. I've seen people throw stuff like 'in the legends it's like this', or 'the legends say this or that'. Legends are many, they're incoherent, and they repeat across the world. There are similar stories of Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere in other traditions, just with different names. I think BBC is simply adding its own contribution to the corpus of legends. In a thousand years, BBC's "Merlin" will have the same right to be listed among "the legends".

    """"Having written several published novels, several scripts and plays and currentlyworking for a publishing companyI can see where they are going with this where others may not.""""

    Sorry, but I can't understand this. Does it mean others without writing experience are unable to see things like you can? There are many brilliant literary critics who understood and saw more than many brilliant writers, despite never having written any fiction.

    There's a man here in my country who lives in a village. He is a simple peasant. His favourite author is Dostoyevsky, and he's read all his books. Actually he knows so much about him, that academics from the Academy of Arts and Sciences visited him to talk to him about Dostoyevsky's fiction.

    So it all boils down to individual worth, individual critical acumen and sensibility.
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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [137]Sep 14, 2011
    • member since: 08/25/11
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 63

    Hi Su and Dp, thanks.


    To answer your question,


    Please don't take my comment asboosting or anything like that. Believe me it's not at all. I'm still learning writing and I still have to edit and correct typos all the time as you can tell.


    What I meant by what I stated is this: character development is ofultra importance when you are creating a story. In fact, character drives story and dictates plot in any story. If you have a plot you have to have the right characters for that plot or the plot you have will not work. The same with characters. You have to give your characters the right plot or the characterizations will not work. The nature of those characters and their motivations have to be clearly defined and written correctly or they don't ring true, the character is notbelievable or"real" people. It is the job of the writer to make the characters "real."


    In studying writing I had to learn this andit took years ofwriting to get it "right" and I still pay very close attention to how I'm developing characterization in my stories and make it "invisble" to the reader.


    So my statement wasthat I have become keenly aware of characterization and what a character is likely to do and not do as well as how they sound, what they will wear, who they would be attracted to, whom they would hate, what would make them cry, fall in love, laugh, fight, scream, steal from their parents and maybe even mrdertheir own child. To make any of that believable you must understand what would motivate them to do even the unthinkable.There must be motivation and characterization to make it all work.


    Now that leads me to Gwen, since we are in Gwen's thread. Her characterization is as follows: She is a servant in the royal house. She has to be humble and accept any kind of treatment evendisrespect, smile and say, yes sire, yes milady. She has to clean other people's messes, all kinds of messes and she still has to have some degree of self respect to keep going. Her family is working class, not nobility so she has accepted her status and in fact, she's okay with that. All of this leads her to react to mistreatment of others in a empathific way and it would touch her emotionally more than someone who has never have it poured on them. By making her a servant and not a princess, the writers have created a character that as the choice of loving whomever she wants not forced into a relationship, ever. This makes her kind to others where as if she was nobility or royal it's likely that she would not. It's not impossible but in a story her kindness , i.e. character of kindness is logical and rings "true". No one is born bad or good, it is a result of their surroundings, environmental, treatment by others and their nature that reacts to that surroundings.She could be evil or mean,if her nature was to rebell to her surroundings but there againasa character in a story we have to"see" her reaction to a mean actin that way.


    In Merlin, the writers have made hersensitive and kindas her nature and her reaction to her surroundings and status.Thus we see Arthur'scharacterization as rude and arrogant toservants based on his status and thatcharacterization is understandable as well. She toldArthur that he should be kindto his people regardless of their status. Thus she has a moralcompass that feels for others. In fact, she is kindto Arthureven through he was rude to her. Both the moral compass and feeling for othersdepict her characterization as someone who wouldn'tbetray a trust ormarriage vows or hurt someone that loves her.Thus her characterization in this story makes adultery completely out of her nature.She is more likely to say I don't love you and I need to leave this marriage before taking onanother love interest.


    The writers of Merlin created her like this so they know adulterywould be abhorant to her.


    Now lets talk about her love for Arthur verse Lancelot. To create"feelings" of love in a character, you havesee the characterdo things that they wouldn't dofor everyone. You have to see the character react in ways that showtenderness and feeling and joy and longing and excitement when the object of their love is on their mind, near them, beingdiscussed or somehow referred to.Who does the character seek comfort from, tell their feelings to, risk their health and life for? These are the things that depict loveof one character for another.


    For Gwen, we have seen her worry for Arthur on the jousting fieldand run tohim when no one else know it was him. We have seen herwith him for comfort while Morgana was gravely ill.We have seen her willing to protect Arthur from others that wanted her tochoose between him and her brother. She told Arthur if something happened to him she would never forgive herself. If you watch that scene you will see that those words were more than just I wouldfeelguilty because you were helping me save my brother. Watch the facial expressions ofAngel and Bradley for that matter during that scene. She also made sure if his story about silk dresses was questioned he would have a cover.


    But I think the most important thing we have seen where Lancelotverses Arthur in Gwen's eyes is two veryjmportant scenes. First,when she saw Lancelot again in 3x13, she knowledged him, was happy to see him and that was it. There was no real interaction with him at all after that. We can see Lancelot glancing at her but she waswell ahead ofhim while going to the abandoned castle and didn't even know he was doing it.


    But those won't even the important scenes. The important scenes are these: while talking with Arthur about him going back to Camelot to fight and maybe die, it was Arthur not Lancelot that she worried about dying. It was Arthur that she stated..."you will see me again" not Lancelot who was right there as well and finally it was Arthur that she kissed, open mouth kissed verse the sweet innocent kiss she gave Lancelot in season 1 and the same kiss of that type in 2X02. And guess what? She did that in front of Lancelot andanyone else there including her own brother.Shedidn't say goodbye to Eylan as she did Arthur and Eylan could very will die as well. And Gwen not giving a damn that Lancelot saw the kiss. Why? Because the one she loved Arthur didn't care who saw it shesure as hell didn't care. See, that's shows she loves Arthur and has choose him overLanelot. Her nature wouldn't have beento kiss Arthur in front of Lancelot if she loved Lancelot.


    And secondly, the last scene...Gwen did it again. She kissed Arthur in front of all five knights including Lancelot and her own brother. If any of them missed the first one, they didn't the last one. Her feelings for Arthur where clearly made to anyone that happened to near them then. That included dear Lancelot.She didn't care how it would affect Lancelot because her love for Arthur was her motivation. Now finally, would Lancelot believe that she loved him...if he does, he is dilusional and the viewer is left with the "knowledge" that she has had her choice because Lancelot was right there to see it all. To Gwen he was of no importance as a love interest. A person who wastrying to make someone else jealous or hurt them would have looked at him to see his reaction to her with Arthur. But we know Gwen's character would not have allowed her to do such a thing. Her true feelings are expressed visually and Lancelot now knows that full well. This is what I mean by "whole heart."


    Now what happens next, I don't know and I could only guess. I have noticed that much more should have been expressed in this relationship that would have made it more believeable and in fact it could have been much better written but they are not asking me so, hey, I'll have to accept what I get. But the bottom line is for me because of all this it's fairly clear to me that adultery is not written in the cards for this character against anyone unless it's writtenin a way that makes what has come before a logical result of whatis happening. But of course I have no idea how it will ultimately be written on Merlin or if they will make anything like that clear before they end the show.


    Sorry this is so long but hey I'm a writer.



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  • Avatar of chrolligal

    chrolligal

    [138]Sep 14, 2011
    • member since: 09/11/11
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 49

    Having Guinevere not commit adultery or do it by having her under a spell or some such would be a total cop out imo. It would be like having Mr Darcy marry Jane instead of Elizabeth Bennett. I can accept that her love for Arthur could be genuinley destroyed after marriage by him or her being magically mislead but to have her not in the end be with Lancelot and just be in love with Arthur and even imply that the future will change and she'll stay with him is unthinkable. She doesn't have to actually ditch Arthur in the show ( this is a prequal not the whole story) but forshadowing of some kind to imply that outcome even if it's only something subtle like a slow decline in the Arthur/Gwen relationship or her believing Arthur is dead for a long period and Lancelot being a good friend to her etc


    All the interviews i've seen with cast and writers they have never made me think the plot would never be corrupted in this way. I thought it had been strongly implied that it was just like Smallville and that the early relationships, ages and how people meet might differ but the accepted known future seen or unseen would and could not change. The story is of a love triangle between A/G/L is pivotal if that nolonger exists the integrity of the story is lost and you could just do anything. I have faith that the writers have a plan and that even though A/G are genuinely in love at this point there will be some indication in the storyline of why things go awry



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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [139]Sep 14, 2011
    • member since: 11/06/09
    • level: 23
    • rank: Close Talker
    • posts: 5,643
    RosyHello, thank you for your extensive answer! Much appreciated.

    I think we agree about characters. They are essential to the story, if they're believable, the story is believable as well. Not to go too much into literary theory, but I place equal importance on action. Quest. Especially with 'Merlin' which is actually quite a quest-driven show. Quest could mean a real epic quest, but I also take it to represent a desire to get something, achieve something, you know, the motivation that sustains the narrative. Otherwise you'd get believable characters simply being believable but having nothing special to do. For example, the quest in "The Eye of the Phoenix" involved many people on opposite sides, and successfully revealed Morgana to Guinevere, Arthur's strengths, Gwaine's qualities, and of course Merlin's qualities.

    To relate this to Guinevere, I think the main problem regarding her character is the lack of quest. She usually does nothing but is simply a servant. She's not given something that she seeks and wants to achieve. She hasn't been very active character, though some episodes are, of course, exception.

    I personally don't mind her, I'm not a fan, but I think a lot of fans don't like her particularly because she's not too much involved into the story. That might change, though. See, she's a well played character. She's also well-written in the sense, that whenever she appears, she's consistent and true to herself. She's got nuances, actually she has everything a character needs. But she needs the story. The quest. Something interesting revolving around her. Something that would need her to oppose someone, to team up with someone else, to run, hide, help or seek help, take risks. These would reveal her character even better than the consistency she has in every scene in which she's in the background.

    It would reveal it in the same way that a game can reveal the personalities of people playing it. If you just observe several people passing ball to each other, you'll notice those who are a bit clumsy but trying, those selfish who want it all to themselves, those generous who try to pass the ball always to someone else, etc. So I think the quest is basically the same thing. It allows for the characters to be seen doing something. We wouldn't need to have Guinevere saying something right to see that she's a moral compass and whatnot, we'd just observe her actions.

    So she basically needs her own arc. Her own adventure. And whenever she has one she shines through.
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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [140]Sep 14, 2011
    • member since: 08/25/11
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 63

    ...To relate this to Guinevere, I think the main problem regarding her character is the lack of quest. She usually does nothing but is simply a servant. She's not given something that she seeks and wants to achieve. She hasn't been very active character, though some episodes are, of course, exception....


    Action, story, plot are all basically the same thing. Whenever I think of plot, I think about something my writing coach told me. He said, It is the engine that drives the locomotive all the way to the end of the journey. Your charactersare on the train,if it doesn't move they never leave the station.


    I guessing Merlin was never meant to be an intellectually stimulating piece of cinema.So we can'texpect a whole lot here.Having said that, there are a ton of motitivation errors, gaps inplot, characterization errors andjust about weak everything expect the cinematology. The area is beautiful and someone can really work a film lamp.


    Beyond that, none of the charactershave any real depth and all the plots just circles the station. I would love to see Gwen have more scenes but what I would really love to know what the girl'smother's name is. Every one of the main characters at least have mother named.


    But for whatever reason people dislike whom they want to including characters on a show. So that can't be fixed,You can create a character that is gilded in gold and they will say the person is just too yellow. But sometimes they hate the character only because who is playing that character no matter what they character does. Please read comment#1 and comment #6 of this thread and I think you will get what I mean.



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