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BBC (ended 2012)

The Queen of Clean - Guinevere thread

  • Avatar of Suagger

    Suagger

    [141]Sep 17, 2011
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    Rosy, I agree with you that the problem with Gwen is that the writers who have decided to redefine hercharacterfrom the legends, rather than theoriginalprincess we have her as a servant which I thought was actually a great way to re-tell the story, but have actually have done very little to present her story asindependentcharacter.


    Gwen has always felt like a background character from thebeginningand over the course of three seasons I don't think that has changed, her romance with Arthur has been played out with little development, the romance seems to have gone from 0-60 and so the romance feels like it's a bit part to be hemmed in to fit in to the overall story, rather than an important element in theirversionof the re-telling of the story.


    As you say, we are given very little on who Gwen is, her family is her father Tom who is killed off, and her brother Elyan who disappears and thenreappearstwice, which seems to imply familial issues, are never explored or expanded upon. Who is her mother, and why is it that the death of her father is never focused upon how it changes her as a person. Why is her relationship to Morgana which is implied was more personal than that of servant and mistress is treated so indifferently?


    I think the overall impression that I have of Gwen is that basically she is there to be a cheerleader for Arthur, the constant pep talks that define their relationship, how she is constantly telling him about how great a king he is going to be somedayad nauseum makes her characterrepetitiveand dare I say it that little bit dull, so in a way I can understand why some people might not like her as she is rarely given anything to do.


    I hope season 4 will change things in terms of exploring who Gwen is and she develops into Queen Guinevere but I have to admit myexpectationsare low on that point.



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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [142]Sep 18, 2011
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    Hi Su,


    Well, Icompletely agree with you. I believe the servant characterization was supposed to be two fold. One, to have her on the campas long before the Princess Guinevere would have been and two, to create angst that wouldn't have been there if she was a princess and Arthur and Guinevere'sintroduction was as in the historical accounts and legends. In eariler stories of Guinevere she grew to loved Arthur and was loyal to him. She was also instructmental in developing the charivlry towards women that the knights are known for. The knights respected her, loved her, would die for herand took instruction and orders from her as well. She was something of the first warrior princess, as well, being excellent at the bow and could use a sword to protect herself if need be. She was smart and conning and could talk her way out of many situations. But larger her story was uneventful and therefore lackluster. It was the later accounts of her relationship with a "new" character Lancelot, who in fact took Gwaine's place as Arthur's right hand, that beefed up her story from some tellings of anenchantment with Lancelot to an all out affair with him that lead to the indirect distruction of the Knights of the RoundTableand Camelot.


    But Guinevere's story really didn't start until after hermarriage to Arthur because she wasn't in Camelot for very long before.ThusGwen wouldn't really have amajor plot inference in astory that started well before her original arrival unless the writers of Merlin created one for her. And from what I can see that's why she was largerly a background character in the BBC's version. However, I have seen that they took small pieces of her story that would have come after her marriage to Arthur and created story for Gwen that took place before her marriage in this series. It's not wrong it's just reworked. In addition the Guinevere of legends story other than Lancelot consisted largely of a lot of kidnappings that can get redunant fast.


    Again, for me, there were just too many missed beats in the BBC's verison of the relationship between Arthur and Gwen that really needed to be there to create a foundation for a courtship and marriage based on love, which is what would have to be if she is a servant.This is very different from apolitial, arranged marriage where courtship andlove would have to happen aftermarriage if at all.In the legends, Arthur didsome cheating as well and he didn't do a great deal of courting her to create love. Guinevere was left alone a great dealwith Lancelot left to protect her most of the time while Arthur was off questing and fighting.


    As forGwen's role in the BBC's verison and Arthur I find it perflexing as well. I don't think she's a cheerleader so muchas thewoman who would co-rule with himand be his"good woman" as in behind every "good man". Her destiny isQueen for the people of Camelot verse the love at first sight and the all consuming love of two people.She isn'tqueen just because they walked down the isle together.In addition I believewhat we aresupposed to believe is that she is the perfect Queen for him because of her love of the people of Camelot and because she is hisstrength, his reasonto keep trying, keep fighting and embrace his own destiny.Because of this she becomes his reason for living, his great love andhis other half, her nature as queen to his nature as king. Merlin helps him win his battles against those that would use magic against him, his knights are there to protect him from whose that would use the sword but Guinevere is there to give him the will to even try.If Arthur decided to give up, Merlin would have no role, no destiny and the Knights would largely be unnecessary. If Arthur gave up from all the forces against him, the people of Camelot would be defenseless and there would be no safe haven for those that just wished to live a normal life. In fact that was Guinevere's orginal role in Arthur's life long before Lancelot was written in.The originalGuinevere's rolewas "dull" because that's the way she wasoriginally written.With Lancelot her rolebecameverydifferent. Instead of giving Arthur thewill to keep fighting because she believed in him,love him and was his strength, his backbone, her betrayal of him sapped him ofthe very will him needed and Camelot was destroyed because of it.


    But to complete this post, you are very right that her character is lacking greatly on BBC.That's very clear. They should have workedwith her characterizationmuch harder because shehadnothing written about her story before Camelot. They needed to "flesh" her out as aviable characterbecause she is in Camelotbefore her story actually started.Just thebits she has on Merlin isnot enough to make her even largely believeable as a "real" person.She had a life before Arthur so she needed oneif we are to see her here.


    ...I hope season 4 will change things in terms of exploring who Gwen is and she develops into Queen Guinevere but I have to admit myexpectationsare low on that point.


    This statementis what I believe will happen with the character of Gwen and it's also where my expectations lay as well.



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  • Avatar of merthurwen

    merthurwen

    [143]Sep 25, 2011
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    Hi Rosy, I'm going to add a bit of a different perspective. One that many won't agree with but her goes and it might be colored by the fact that I started watching eries 3 got through a few eps and then went back to the beginning.



    In looking back I found there was so much foreshadowing of Arthur/Gwen that I think people may have over looked it because of the Arthur/Morgana misdirect. This Gwen is simply not the Gwen of legend. I think the writers tried to let us in on this from ep 1 when she (in her totally Gwen way) ended up talking up Arthur's virtues to Merlin even though she was there (at the stocks) to comfort Merlin about Arthur being a bully. Think back to how Merlin has always had an eye for pretty girls, initially he looked appreciatively at Gwen but after her failed pep talk when she was again disparaging of Arthur, Merlin (perceptive as always) says something like, "I thought you like those rough tough save the world sorts." It was very subtle but Merlin saw through her and from that point on was pushing Gwen towards her "type" Arthur/Lance (think 1x5) even though she thought Merlin was her type.



    If you pick up that very subtle hint you know the producers flipped the script on the Arthur/Gwen ship. Most think the romance was out of nowhere but actually in 1x10 and again in 1x11 (at the water pump when she tells Merlin "Arthur will think of something" it was Gwen who first let slip her admiration for Arthur. I agree that the writes didn't give us much back story on Gwen but they certainly (in my opinion) laid the trail for a budding romance. Arthur's admiration of her was revealed briefly in 1x10 but also in 1x12 Arthur showing up at Gwen's home to offer her comfort was a big fat DUH in the foreshadowing of his developing awareness of her. I mean think about it, why on earth would a Prince who doesn't even realize this woman exists come to her home to let her know her home and job were safe and to express comfort and sorrow about an order he issued at his fathers behest. To me this is huge, esp. for Arthur who can't even be bothered to give Gaius a direct message from Uther and whom up until this point has only offered comfort to Merlin (1x4). Then we have 1x13 where we see him teasing flirting and sighing at her departure. Considering this show is not serialized and there are only 13 eps. I don't know how much more ground work they could have laid in the 1st series. Even if the subtlety of series 1 was missed surely in 2x1 we can see how and why he's beginning to fall for her. It's her bravery and strength. From his perspective she risks her life to get the flower to save Merlin's life, she goes with Merlin to help him save his village, and for all the knocks she gets, it's she (not Morgana) who demonstrates she believes in the greater good (equality) by her willingness confront him, risk her life at his side, and show unwavering resolve in him as a leader, a ruler, and a man. Thus his line "you always surprise me." I mean as a Prince wouldn't you be surprised at a simple servant who did all of that?



    As to her being only a love interest, I say yeah...that's exactly what she is. Like you I don't think either lady's character has been fully fleshed out but it's Gwen who is spoken of as a Bette. I mean really think about it. Morgana's actions even when well intentioned are about how these actions directly relate to her (Gwen's father's death was important only as it related to Morgana's personal grief), not the injustice of a good man's wrongful death. Gwen's character has gone from a naive girl with only thoughts of finding a husband,apparently, to that of a woman who even when she thought she couldn't have Arthur's love, was determined to affect change for the greater good by influencing the man she loved. That's a huge arc and let's be honest it's the only real power she has. So when we disparage her "you will be a just King speeches" I think we miss the effectiveness of her subtle strength: feminine mental and physical Evidenced by her willingnes to stand as his equal 1x10, find her way to him 3x13, putting his peoples needs before her own 3:16 and yes providing council and comfort (which as the purpose of those speeches).



    All of this is a very wordy way of saying (not for the first time) this Gwen chose Arthur, not because she had to but because she admires respects and loves him. I have never liked Arthurian legend because of the misogyny. This take on the legends gives us two female leads who are self determinant (in very different ways) and I can't see how you turn this woman who has walked through the fire with Arthur into a paradise destroying Eve. Considering this is Merlin's story I have no huge problem with how Gwen has been written, though some might. The only thing I find inconceivable (I may have said this before) and a bit insulting, is the concept that this Gwen would willingly cheat on Arthur, husband or no.

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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [144]Sep 26, 2011
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    Well Merthurwen,


    I also watched season 1 all over again, just last weekend, well as less the episodes I could stomach. And so I can relate to what you stated. However, first I want to say write romances are hard, very hard. They are disparaged because there are not very many authors that can write them well.So the good writers do something else. Romantic comedies ignore what romances really are. They are a parody of romance and thus not really romance in the pure sense of the word.


    Having said that, I will restate what I've already stated that Merlin writers were very lazy in writing the relationship between Arthur and Guinevere. I have a number of theories on that. One, they knew we all knew that Arthur and Gwen would get together at some point so as long as they put them togethersomewhere during thefive year arc, it's all good. Two, this is Merlin centered so, anything that takes away from that is...well, filler. Three, hey romance writing is hard.


    But there's a way that it has to be done, has to, no exceptions, no shortcuts. If it's not the couple is weak, the relationship can seem forced and there's no way to fix that later, period.The foundation of a romance of any kind has to be there or it's not a viable romance and because its a relationship that some will find hard to believe because of the actors involved not the characters at all, thehard workneeded to be there and itjust wasn't.


    Twopeople can love each other under the most adverse,socially hotile andphysical dangerouscircumstances imaginable. Without going througheach step and what needs to bewritten I will say this again, too many beats were missing in the very early stages of thisshowthat needed to be there but wasn't. I find myself questioning too many timeshow they intended to put Arthur and Gwen together withoutlocking them in the dungon and telling them they can't comeout until they are in love. Well guess what, we got 2X02 -the dungon was Gwen's house,then a freakingrewindright back to the station. That's not how youwrite romances. It just doesn't work.


    Now to what you stated. Yes, I agree that there were tiny bits of"stuff" duringseason 1 that were sweet and the two of them didinteract butunfornaturely none of that was the right seeds of a great romance. It was only seeds of knowing the personexisted in the world and maybe they wouldbe good friends.Now having rewatched season 1,I can see what they were trying to do. In life dating and romance can happen that way but it can't when its being written.


    So to be very basic with this, if you watch any series show primetime or daytime, if youare going to have a romance between two people, even a mediocre one, there must...MUST be some kind of physical attraction displayed the first time they meetor at least thefirst time we see themin the same scene. ItHAS tobe there.If it's in a writing you have to havedisplays of physical caringthat are seedsfrom which more greater acts of caring grow.


    Firstwhat I foundstrange is that it would seen that the writers wrote the women as the ones with "crushes" and overt attractions, while the menreally weren't responsive orassertive in that area. Only Lancelot showed the appropriate attraction andaffection that would definatelyprovide the foundation for a great romance. And in fact I thought that was the way they were going to go.They wrote it much better (kinda) for Lancelot and Gwen's beginnings but was very lazy with Arthur and Gwen's relationship.


    So with all that we have in season 1 with Arthur and Gwen, there needed to be scene's where Arthur was shown watching her even through he never voiced his attraction. There should have been times when he did things to get her attention and said things that he knew would upset her or do something that would make her think about him.We should have seen scenes where he even have a dream about her...something that would show his, more thanfriendship thoughts about her.They had that withSophia during season 1 (okay it was a bit overdone) in thatepisode butsomething like that needed to be done. The fact that he did such with agirlwho looked 13years old to me and not the one that he should have for a foundation of a love match madethe small things where Arthur and Gwen interacted seemed even more none romantic.


    See, to writea romantic relationship between two people and make the beatsnoticableenough to be believeable, it must be written aspecial,specific, determined way and yet not overwhelming to the point that it's visable. Thus we have what seems like nothing in season 1 and forced in season 2, and now largely unbelievable in season 3. Unfornatunely that has nothing at all to do with the actors, it's all on the necks of the writers. It's sad but it's really true and for me it's a lesson in how it's should not be done.

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  • Avatar of jaqtkd

    jaqtkd

    [145]Sep 27, 2011
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    Okay, so my opinion.


    I was surprised when I first saw the casting choice for Gwen (and Merlin) but quickly delighted the unorthodox casting. I instantly got the 'joke' that everyone had been put where you least expected them and we were going to watch them all change to the people we knew from legend.


    Arthur's a bully, Gwen's a plain servant (in the way she dressed,) Morgana seems nice and Merlin's young and clumsy. In the first episode they start to put the 'wrong' pairs together (I laughed so much when they tried to hint at an Arthur Morgana pairing) and, as started above delighted in the fact that Gwen thinks the Prince is a bully and says "who would want to marry Arthur?"


    I think all of those characterisations work much better if you know the legends.


    Oh, and I've no idea what people mean about Arthur and Gwen's 'rushed' relationship. It was quite obvious that Arthur and Gwen started to seriously take note of each other when in Ealdor and, from there, in real time, it would have been several months before that first wonderful kiss in series 2. MONTHS. Since then it's taken another two and a half years in real time for them to 'come out' and kiss in public.


    The only mistake the writers have made is in assuming that all their viewers knew that the pair were destined to be together (along with Morgana's destiny and actual relationship to Arthur)

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  • Avatar of merthurwen

    merthurwen

    [146]Sep 27, 2011
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    @ RosyHello, actually I think we are in agreement. Arwen was never going to have a romance novel build up. Obviously the writing is a weakness on this show but on the other hand I am really happy that they don't take us by the hand and lead us to point. Considering just how poor the plot lines are the only thing that keeps me coming back is the fact that you have to work to get to the greater meaning. We'll that and the fact finally we have an Arthurian legend with self determinant females.



    I know that series one is much maligned but I absolutely love the sweet simplicity of it. It's also essential and though the writing was shaky the cinematography is brilliant and in this series tells the story much better than does the writing. The scene in which Gwen is shown looking out at Arthur training his men is brilliant. It here we see for the first time that in this version of the legends, we just might get a queen (Gwenhwyfar) worthy of this great king. She is not a face spied by a king who will later become an object for men to fight over. It's she who not only sees Arthur but will know him (rough tough save the world type who can be a bully) and will later make a decision as to whom she will give her heart.



    For me as a woman, it is much more important to see her judgement, her loyalty her, and yes even her awareness of her femininity portrayed(and it has) than to see all the details of romance.



    Like Jaqktd (sp) I think the ground work was well laid out for the romance, but even if you think it could be improved upon we agree this is a good Gwen. God knows today's young ladies (whom this show is aimed at) can certainly benefit from the portrayal of a healthy romance.

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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [147]Sep 27, 2011
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    Jaq -

    Oh, and I've no idea what people mean about Arthur and Gwen's 'rushed' relationship. It was quite obvious that Arthur and Gwen started to seriously take note of each other when in Ealdor and, from there, in real time, it would have been several months before that first wonderful kiss in series 2. MONTHS. Since then it's taken another two and a half years in real time for them to 'come out' and kiss in public.


    Well, this is my opinion only and of course with that I'm not saying those who have a difference of opinion are wrong, not at all. But for me I wouldn't say rushed, I would say seemingly "forced" and "out of the blue." But because I write I really don't feel the writers realized that's the way it would come off. In fact, I believe many who write romances regardless of the medium don't get it.Technical flaws canresult into what many are saying. And unfornately I see their point. Just to clarify, the "rushed", "forced", or "out of the blue" opinion of the romance between Arthur and Gwen is a very logical result of what was shown on the show. And Jaq,what was shown on the show is the key here. While we know time passed, what we don't see is what we will never be aware of. So for those of us who arewatching we can'tjump from friendship to lovein just two or three scenes with"there was something happening in between" that we didn't see, so it's okay. It's not okay because we can't see what brought them to the point of love. Love is an emotion that hasto develop and the development is critical for a convincingresult. Iflove at first sight is the goalwhich isextremely difficult to write in any forum the writer has to be extremely skilled at writing it.


    The only mistake the writers have made is in assuming that all their viewers knew that the pair were destined to be together (along with Morgana's destiny and actual relationship to Arthur)


    I completely agree.



    Merthurwen -
    @ RosyHello, actually I think we are in agreement. Arwen was never going to have a romance novel build up. Obviously the writing is a weakness on this show but on the other hand I am really happy that they don't take us by the hand and lead us to point.

    Mer,we are in agreement here completely. No, writing a romance novel romance verse other mediums, i.e. TV scripts, movie scripts, plays, TV series scripts, even short storiesrequire a different approach butthe beats necessary are still the same. There are steps that can't be skipped, you can't jump steps, you can add steps but you can't jump steps. That being said, no it's not necessary to be lead by the hand or the nosein a story of romance. And you can't beat the viewer, reader, audiance over the head with it. It's like getting a pie made of only crust and sugar. While those areingredients of a great pie there has to be more or you don't have anything edible. The same with a romance of any kind. And to restate, many of the ingredients to a great romanceshould bevery subtle and covered bywhatcomes acrossas other intentions butthe deeper, hidden motivation is a growing romantic love.

    Considering just how poor the plot lines are the only thing that keeps me coming back is the fact that you have to work to get to the greater meaning. We'll that and the fact finally we have an Arthurian legend with self determinant females.

    While one can write a dissertation on cartoons, I will say that this is not a show that is geared to the intellect of adults, thus we adults will tend to search for a greater meaning, eventhoughI'm surethe writers are not going for an intellectually stimulating show. What kids might accept easily, adults are less likely to.

    I know that series one is much maligned but I absolutely love the sweet simplicity of it. It's also essential and though the writing was shaky the cinematography is brilliant and in this series tells the story much better than does the writing. The scene in which Gwen is shown looking out at Arthur training his men is brilliant. It here we see for the first time that in this version of the legends, we just might get a queen (Gwenhwyfar) worthy of this great king. She is not a face spied by a king who will later become an object for men to fight over. It's she who not only sees Arthur but will know him (rough tough save the world type who can be a bully) and will later make a decision as to whom she will give her heart.

    Excellent point and I totally agree. But I will add her seeing him and admiring him is not the same as loving him. Admiration and respect is a large partof thebasis of love but not love and it may not result in a romantic love at all.

    For me as a woman, it is much more important to see her judgement, her loyalty her, and yes even her awareness of her femininity portrayed(and it has) than to see all the details of romance.


    Like Jaqktd (sp) I think the ground work was well laid out for the romance, but even if you think it could be improved upon we agree this is a good Gwen. God knows today's young ladies (whom this show is aimed at) can certainly benefit from the portrayal of a healthy romance.

    Well, I don't know about the well laid part, of course that's completely my opinon only and I respect your point as well. But I will say yes, as a woman I agree thatthisGuinevere, Gwen, Gwenhwyfarfor a new generation of young readers, male and female, this verison will set a new prospective of the Arthurian legends where the women are strong willed and notjust the villians of the story, regardless of their "goodness" or "evilness" that has been the theme of these stories for centuries.

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  • Avatar of mspoirot

    mspoirot

    [148]Sep 30, 2011
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    If this question as already been answered on this thread, please direct me to the ones I should read. I've detected it here as well as on other forums. Why is there so much Gwen "hate"? Is it dislike of the character? the actress? people want a gay relationship between Arthur & Merlin? Her race? I find it very curious. I'm very interested in hearing responses. I'm working on an article & would like all viewpoints.

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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [149]Sep 30, 2011
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    Hi Mis,


    I saw your question in the spoiler thread and since it seems I'm the one people have been asking questions of Gwen lately I thought I'd try to answer you. I'm not a expert on Guinevere but it just so happened that I studied a lot about the Arthurian Legends in High School. Not that I wanted to but because I was working on a valedictorian goal at the time soI forced myself to learn a lot about it.


    But your question has nothing to do with the character of Guinevere in the legends or historical accounts. It doesn't have to do with recent movie and series accounts that involved Guinevere. That Guinevere had never been disliked BEFORE she did anything todesserveit.Therefore,your question mustbe about theBBC's Merlin fans and theirbiases. Therefore,how's this for an answer. ALL OF THEABOVE.


    There is also the group that dislike her becauseof her relationship with Arthur thatusurps Morgana's"claims" on him in season 1.IMO allof the dislike is illogical and irrational.We all know that Guinevere has to become Arthur'sQueen or wewill not be watching a series based onArthurian Legend.Yet,that doesn't stop thosefrom wanting tochange the centuries of stories based on our own personal likes and dislikes.Yes, some things can changed but an Arthur without a Guinevere somewhere in the story as his love interest will charge the story too far from the established.That being said, I will addthat there is also plenty of hate for Morgana and Uther.So Gwen is byno means the only disliked character on Merlin. However, she just may be the only character that seems toget the hate based onnothing she has done onBBC's Merlin at least not yet.


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  • Avatar of Melissa2205

    Melissa2205

    [150]Sep 30, 2011
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    Hi guys first time poster long time lurker. Cant wait for the new season yay. Just waited to drop in the Gwen thread and state how excited I am for her development, I really believe this season might be the best thing for her character in terms of really seeing how great of of queen she will be. And Angel is such an amazing actress so I know she can bring it. And mspoirot I have been in the Merlin fandom for three years and honestly I haven't really seen a lot of Gwen hate I see more Morgana hate than anything else which started last season but I can tell you that some dislike comes her being perceived has the person that stands between some other ship preferences, it part of being some type of love interest.
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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [151]Sep 30, 2011
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    Sorry about my spacing on my replies. I do space the words right. Not sure why my spacing on the thread seems to be all wrong.

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    BrightlyLit

    [152]Sep 30, 2011
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    mspoirot wrote:

    If this question as already been answered on this thread, please direct me to the ones I should read. I've detected it here as well as on other forums. Why is there so much Gwen "hate"? Is it dislike of the character? the actress? people want a gay relationship between Arthur & Merlin? Her race? I find it very curious. I'm very interested in hearing responses. I'm working on an article & would like all viewpoints.



    Hi mspoirot, I happened to see your question at the other thread and hopped over here to see what's been going on. I happen to be very much a fan of Gwen/Angel and also a big Arwen fan and I have not felt what I consider to be a hugh amount of Gwen hate here at this site. I've seen it at other places, particularly YouTube and Tumblr but I think it's a tad better here. There may be a few folks who have difficulty with the character but hey, I've seen quite a bit of negativism towards Morgana as well. As someone said earlier, check out comments #1 and #6 on this thread and you'll see some of both.

    I also wanted to tell RosyHello and Merthurwen that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading over your thoughts and opinions about Gwen as a character and the romance. Both of you have great insight into what this show is really doing. Except I must say I particularly was delighted to read Merthurwen's initial post a few days ago as I am one of the people who find it hard to understand why so many folks talk about the romance being rushed and out of the blue. I could repeat word for word your dissertation on how this romance was, I feel, slowly and carefully built up and for me the beauty was in the subtlety of it. I won't repeat all the examples given by Mert. but I agree wholeheartedly. It was refreshing to read because as you say, few people agree with it and it's been a welcome change for me. I wrote something quite similar at another place once some months ago.

    I also agree with RosyHello completely about the fact that the character Gwen which Merlin is giving us is not written in a way that would allow her to intentionally betray Arthur. Someone said earlier that it would be a travesty if they don't have the adultery part in the story. Unfortunately, there are certain people who refuse to let go of the French version of Guinevere and they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that along with so many other aspects of this show, BBC is creating its own different version of the legend with regard to the triangle. What is at the root of this stubbornness I can't say, but it could have something to do with the issue I initially addressed with mspoirot.
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  • Avatar of mspoirot

    mspoirot

    [153]Sep 30, 2011
    • member since: 09/19/11
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    • rank: Weatherman
    • posts: 9

    Thank you for the responses. I made a mistake in my wording, speaking about this forum, however, my researcher is hard at work pulling together examples of, should I say, anti-gwen sentiments from this site. This is not the only forum, etc. I'm studying. So please don't feel that this site is being singled out. However, I find it very interesting that there is so many anti-gwen/angel sentiments on many forums. While "Morgana/Katie" is considered beautiful / Gwen/Angel is considered ugly & plain and doesn't fit the role (not blonde & blue-eyed), that she's not realistic/worthy of anyone falling in love in her. However a "talking Dragon?" No problem. Again, thanks for the responses.

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  • Avatar of jaqtkd

    jaqtkd

    [154]Oct 1, 2011
    • member since: 09/08/11
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 309

    Hi again all



    Ms Poirot - I actually think that's the point. The writers deliberately put Gwen in very plain, unflattering dresses and made a bit thing about 'their' Guinevere being a servant. Then, as we have seen, as each series progressed, her dresses have improved, her hair has grown. A bit 'obvious' perhaps (although I believe Angel isn't complaining ) but fun all the same. I find it ironic that some are 'hating' the character/actor for doing exactly what was required of her.



    Interesting the point that was made about the age of viewers influencing their view on the Arwen romance. I've often seen much of the 'hate' from other sites directed at Gwen because she somehow gets in the way of Arthur's 'romance' with Morgana, Merlin or, in the case of many teenage girls, THEM!



    For the record, as someone who believes that the relationship was slowly, carefuly and beautifully built up, and that the show is well written within it's confines as a Saturday Teatime family show, I can confidently say that I'm definitely not one of the younger viewers - probably one of the older ones, in fact.



    I agree about respecting the personal opinion of others on boards and I've always found the differing views of the chemistry and build up of this relationship fascinating. There is an ongoing thread on another board about this and I deliberately went back to the start and counted up the number of 'love's and 'hate' and found it to be exactly 50/50.

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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [155]Oct 1, 2011
    • member since: 08/25/11
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 63

    Hi all,


    I'm going to be very bunt with this and I hope I'm not breaking any rules here. But one thing I've noticed even in this very thread is that there are several Morgana centered posts that shouldn't be here. This is Gwen's thread and yet people have directed the conversation to Mrogana and nothing in their posts had anything to do with Gwen. That's unfair and against the rules.


    Secondly, some found it difficult and still find it difficult to "accept" a black actress as Guinevere, period. So it doesn't matter what Gwen does she is going to be bashed regardless as to what she does. Morgana will not be based and in fact her herrious actions will be justified just on the fact that she is white. She will be called beautiful just on that fact alone. I'm not saying all do that and I'm not saying they do just because of that but yes some use the most unreasonable arguement to negate her because she is the one they wish to identify with. Unfornately, that can't be changed and no amount of arguement or reasonble direction to the facts of the this show will change that.


    If the roles were reversed and Morgana was played by Angel, the bashed would be more in line with what has happened on the show. Angel playing Morgana and Kaite playing Guinevere would be much more acceptable to those that can't get pastthe characterizations. What you will find is people pulling in story from other depictions out of other versions of the legend to change the characterization of Morgana into someone they like better and pulling those same characterizations from versions that depict Guinevere in a negative light to justify their own biases against the the character Angel plays. For me that's total based on their own personal racial bias. They will never allow themselves to view this show and the characterization of Guinevere that BBC's Merlin isvigorously fighting to show with the same open acceptance as they have that Merlin is the same age as Arthur or that Morgana is not the mother of Mordred or that Morgana is a crazied, irrational, and murderious of innocences. Somehow thosecharacterizations are okay. But Guinevere's characterization of even purely loving Arthur and Arthur being in love with her can't be accepted because...well...she has to cheat on him and destory everything...so thatthey can justify their irrational dislike of her.These people don't have any rational reason to hate this depiction of Guinevereother than their general hatrad of her as a black actress in the role. I have not read anywhere one time where someone as upset because Guinevere has been depicted as a servant and not as the princess she's always been depicted as. Again, IMO that's because as a black actress that's easily accepted.


    While beauty is always in the eye of the beholder,beauty does have a standard.Natural beauty is unique.Beauty that doesn't need makeup and silk dresses is natural beauty. Stating that a actress is not beautiful enough actor is bashing and inappropriate in any setting. Basing that opinion on race is arhorant. And those that find my words offensive should reevaluate their own personal feelings and get to the bottom of just why they feel that way. I don't know the actors personally so my feelingsabout them is nonexistance. But the characters I see on scene is the only thing I will allow myself to base my feeling on. Murdering people is not a good trait for fostering my like of the character. Being kind to others is a good trait for me to base my liking a character. Protecting and fighting for innocences is a trait I value. Hating people for no seeable reason is something I'm not attracted too. Beauty and likeabilityfor me is based on more than natural beauty, it involves interbeauty as well.


    Angel,doesn't need lipstick, eyeshadow, eyeliner and face makeup to be beautiful to me and yes a person with black blood can be just as beautiful as someone that appears not to have any. But I also believe that some have been conditioned to believe the opposite. That's sad beause until one can see the true beauty in anyone, they are operating on qualities that are ugly and make themselves lacking in beauty as well.



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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [156]Oct 1, 2011
    • member since: 02/05/07
    • level: 75
    • rank: Rowdy Roddy Piper
    • posts: 135,676
    a person with black blood can be just as beautiful as someone that appears not to have any That goes absolutey without saying.

    I also believe that some have been conditioned to believe the opposite. That's your opinion and very respectable. However, not everyone who thinks someone pretty or not pretty does it taking into account race only. But that is besides the point since so far no one has stated a racist comment openly without being reminded that bashing actors/characters goes against the rules and shall not be accepted.

    Please everyone keep that in mind, I'll remove as many posts as needed if I must. Thank you
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  • Avatar of Melissa2205

    Melissa2205

    [157]Oct 1, 2011
    • member since: 10/01/11
    • level: 1
    • rank: Weatherman
    • posts: 7
    I totally agree with you boom-moo, not everyone is focused on race and I think it's totally unfair to generalize like that. So yeah some people might have a problem with Gwen being depicted by a POC because legends have conditioned them to believe in a certain appearance of what Guinevere should look like. But you can't generalize and judge people based on your assumptions. Are you to tell me that the slut-shaming the character gets which I have witnessed is based on race. No it isn't it is the idea depicted in society that women cannot even look or talk to other men without the word slut being thrown around and the burnt of what I have witnessed is vitriol towards the Merlin women character which is why Morgana was brought into the conversation. The guys hardly get it they might be they might be criticized here and there but nothing over the top. But you should see some names the women characters have been called especially Morgana. So at the end of the day, women in society will always be unfairly criticized and harshly judged whether its a POC or not and as a woman myself I think it essential to understand why that's so in the first place and how we fix. As I said earlier I really haven't seen much hate towards Gwen's character seen a few slut-shaming and appearance critic which is fine because beauty is entirely subjective. At the end of the day, characters will always have people that don't like them it's the beauty of entertainment but they are also people who love them.
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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [158]Oct 1, 2011
    • member since: 02/05/07
    • level: 75
    • rank: Rowdy Roddy Piper
    • posts: 135,676
    I think that it is sad if the Gwen related discussion gets focused on Angel's looks. There's plenty to talk about like Gwen's characterization, Merlin's Gwen vs Arthurian Legend Gwen, Gwen's rushed or slow burn connection with Arthur, etc. Since there really isn't much to say about Angel's looks than "I find her pretty" / "I don't find her pretty" without breaking the TOS, let's move it to more interesting discussion topics. Thank you
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