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BBC (ended 2012)

The Queen of Clean - Guinevere thread

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    Melissa2205

    [161]Oct 1, 2011
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    Anyways moving on. Am not entirely sure on the policies of posting discussions here but in the last Julian Jones interview which I listened to about 2 days ago, he was asked on who would get the most character development in series 4 and he said Gwen. So I totally have faith that this will be a good season for her. I really want to see what her character will be about outside of the love triangle, how does she feel about magic? Does she believe Uther's view since she was raised in Camelot. What happened to her mother? How does she feel about the pressure of possibly becoming queen these are all things not related to the love angle that could possibly explore Gwen's role further. I totally adore the Merlin and Gwen friendship too so that's really something I want to see explored too in the new season. And now that Morgana's evil how does Gwen feel towards her now. How does she feel about her betrayal. So much that could be explored and need answering.
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    RosyHello

    [162]Oct 1, 2011
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    Not to belabor the point, but wouldn't the word "some" negate the use of generalization? It is the word I used several times. And BM, I'm moving on

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    boom-moo

    [163]Oct 1, 2011
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    Melissa2205, anything learnt through interviews having to do with series 4 is a spoiler as of yet so please refrain from referring to such pieces of information in here. Thank you

    Thank you, RosyHello
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    Melissa2205

    [164]Oct 1, 2011
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    Ok boom-moo I understand and I will learn to refrain from posting such info in the future. Thank you for that.

    And Rosy-Hello yes some would negate generalization and I should have been more clear in the distinction I was just trying to make.
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    dpebbleson

    [165]Oct 1, 2011
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    This has been an interesting discussion

    I haven't noticed that much of negativity towards Guinevere, tbh. Though I don't really visit other forums. On this forum, there was some negativity about her being black actress. But even that wasn't so much related to her being black, but to the fact that one would expect a Celtic queen to be white. And I think Guinevere actually means something like "white lady" or "pale lady".

    I think it's a nice subversion that she's black. Totally modern and all. But also contemporary, since there probably were black people in Britain back then, owing to Roman globalization.

    As for beauty, I figure that's subjective. I personally like Katie more; but I've read that some like Angel more. I haven't really found someone stating she is ugly. But between two women, one must be at least somewhat more beautiful for the observer.

    Third thing related to negativity is about the character, which isn't flawed, but hasn't had much to do. I think there's more negativity about Morgana right now, even though she has a story of her own - then about Guinevere, even though she hasn't had much of a story so far.

    And there are, and always will be trolls and idle minds.
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    chrolligal

    [166]Oct 1, 2011
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    Are we supposed to fully like Gwen? I don't think she is even meant to be a completely sympathetic character she must cheat on Arthur with Lancelot in the future so rightly the writers have made her a bit ambiguous from the start. She liked Merlin and I think Gwaine a little to. I think Angel plays that good girl with the potential to got bad things very well. In this weeks episode what she said about being nice to Uther ONLY because of Arthur shows us she's not a just a passive sweet character. The good we see her do is supposed to make the audience see why Arthur loves her but i think we are also shown a side of her that Arthur does not see. I think those who have a problem with her casting are being very unfair the City of Camelot and the world it exists in are not Medievil England in this version but a totally fictional universe so she doesn't need to be any colour. The legend of the real Arthur is supposed to be long before medievil times anyway. The language they use like "Ok" etc are not implying an historical place either and the casting of all the men reverses the uk class system. All the commoners like Merlin and Lancelot speak with cut glass accents whilst the royals like Arthur , Uther and the Uncle sound like typical cockney/essex boys and no one calls their casting into question.

    Angel does a great job but I think her character is not meant to be 100% likable so it's ok not to like her imo so long as it not for some lame ass reason like she's not pretty/white enough for the role.
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    pcdsa

    [168]Oct 2, 2011
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    I don't understand why her helping Uther only for Arthur's sake makes her unlikeable. I think it seems she is too good to be true in that if someone killed my father, slapped me and said I wasn't worthy to love their son I wouldn't be having happy feelings towards that person. She wasn't interested in revenge when Uther killed her father and she was very gentle with Uther and showed no hatred towards him which was very commendable.
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    chrolligal

    [170]Oct 2, 2011
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    pcdsa wrote:
    I don't understand why her helping Uther only for Arthur's sake makes her unlikeable. I think it seems she is too good to be true in that if someone killed my father, slapped me and said I wasn't worthy to love their son I wouldn't be having happy feelings towards that person. She wasn't interested in revenge when Uther killed her father and she was very gentle with Uther and showed no hatred towards him which was very commendable.
    QUOTE



    I'm not saying she's unlikable just suggesting that the writers may not intend her to be good. IF the writers were trying to sell her a a heroine they wouldn't keep inserting lines that hint at her being unsympathic. We know she has reasons not to like Uther but the fact that the writers chose to have her re-afirm her negitive feeling towards him yet again in a packed 50 minute show is not accidental nor were Lancelot's dashed hopes and accident imo.


    The whole scene of her going up to lance only to ask him to look after Arthur knowing full well that Lance cares for her too was so sad. He looked like he'd been hit in the face. Plot wise she could have just as easily asked her brother so it's clearly meant either to convey her as unfeeling towards Lance or it will be the catalyst to a major guilt/grief/love rekindled storyline on her part if Lancelot does as she requested and dies in place of Arthur.


    I was saying that the writers are deliberately writing her as a mixed character with all her good points on show in the Arthur scenes to make their love relationship believable whilst in scenes with other characters they sow the seeds of doubt in the audiences mind about her in order to give some hint about why/how she will betray Arthur in the future.


    To me it's very good writing because we all know what happens in the future so a flawless Gwen would be a cop op imo.


    Merlin is a prequal just like Smallville and just like Lex we need to see signs of the person will become from day one. If Lex and Clark had just been happy BFF's and all Lex's turning bad had been put off till the end like Clark flying it would be a denial of the future Lex and frustrating for fans.


    Gwen is written as just good enough that Arthur has reason to fall in love with her but just bad enough for us to understand what will motivate her future actions.

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    boom-moo

    [171]Oct 2, 2011
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    chrolligal, please remove your post #169 so it doesn't appear as a double post (I know editing isn't working but douple posting goes against the rules), thanks

    The whole scene of her going up to lance only to ask him to look after Arthur knowing full well that Lance cares for her too was so sad. He looked like he'd been hit in the face. Plot wise she could have just as easily asked her brother so it's clearly meant either to convey her as unfeeling towards Lance or it will be the catalyst to a major guilt/grief/love rekindled storyline on her part if Lancelot does as she requested and dies in place of Arthur. I found that scene a bit ambiguous. Why didn't Gwen ask her brother, or even Sir Leon (with whom she grew up apparently) or Sir Gwaine (with whom she seems to have developed a friendship) instead? She surely trusts them too. It could be read as if Lancelot is the only one Gwen wouldn't care being spared, as if she has totally moved on and doesn't mind making it very clear to Lancelot or it could be read as if Lancelot is the one she considers the bravest, most loyal and trustworthy to do the right thing despite his own feelings, just like he did in 2x04. I guess it has multiple readings for different viewers/shippers.
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  • Avatar of chrolligal

    chrolligal

    [172]Oct 2, 2011
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    I deleted 169 as far as i'm aware within a few seconds of posting. It isn't on my screen but several other posts are also missing so it might still be viewable to some folks. I can't do anything more atm but if a mod wants to get rid of it be my guest

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    boom-moo

    [173]Oct 2, 2011
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    It's gone for me now, chrolligal. I might have posted right before you removed it. Thanks
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    jaqtkd

    [174]Oct 2, 2011
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    "She must cheat with Lancelot ..."


    No, actually, that is not a given. The earliest legends don't include him at all and, when he first appears, Lancelot and Gwen fall in love but don't do anything about it because they both love Arthur too much to break his heart. Then the French got hold of it (No racial slur intended - lol! )


    Last night's episode really fell into that 'tragic love' part and I'd much rather believe that, in their right minds, neither will act on their feelings for each other.


    The other thing I've noticed is that some people make negative comments about this Gwen and 'all the men she kissed' When she has only been seen to kiss two other men (Merlin and Lancelot) when she was not actually an item with Arthur at the time. Why can she not admire more than one man when no-one seems to make a comment about Merlin or Arthur admiring more than one woman during these last five years? (in their time line)


    I'm interested about the comment about the writers including 'negative' lines for Gwen. I certainly can't remember any and usually hear the opposite comment that she sometimes comes over as too good and sweet and could do with being less than perfect. I've even heard Angel say the much the same in interviews. I agree that her agreeing to care for Uther after everything he's done to her, shows her in a totally positive light - willing to do anything for the man she loves. Who here would undertake that task so selflishly?

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    boom-moo

    [175]Oct 2, 2011
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    I'd much rather believe that, in their right minds, neither will act on their feelings for each other. Me too.

    The other thing I've noticed is that some people make negative comments about this Gwen and 'all the men she kissed' When she has only been seen to kiss two other men (Merlin and Lancelot) when she was not actually an item with Arthur at the time. Again, ambiguous and catering for different viewers/shippers since by 2x04 she had kissed Arthur already and yet she went all: "I didn't even know I could feel this way about someone" and "As long as I live, my feelings for you will never fade" to Lancelot only to becoming an item with Arthur when Lancelot removed himself from the picture.

    Everyone can get what they want from the show the way it's written, as I see it
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    jaqtkd

    [176]Oct 2, 2011
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    True, but I still think it's unfair that some people dislike her because she kissed all of three men. Not here, perhaps, but I read it regularly.

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    chrolligal

    [177]Oct 2, 2011
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    jaqtkd wrote:


    "She must cheat with Lancelot ..."


    No, actually, that is not a given. The earliest legends don't include him at all and, when he first appears, Lancelot and Gwen fall in love but don't do anything about it because they both love Arthur too much to break his heart. Then the French got hold of it (No racial slur intended - lol! )


    Last night's episode really fell into that 'tragic love' part and I'd much rather believe that, in their right minds, neither will act on their feelings for each other.


    The other thing I've noticed is that some people make negative comments about this Gwen and 'all the men she kissed' When she has only been seen to kiss two other men (Merlin and Lancelot) when she was not actually an item with Arthur at the time. Why can she not admire more than one man when no-one seems to make a comment about Merlin or Arthur admiring more than one woman during these last five years? (in their time line)


    I'm interested about the comment about the writers including 'negative' lines for Gwen. I certainly can't remember any and usually hear the opposite comment that she sometimes comes over as too good and sweet and could do with being less than perfect. I've even heard Angel say the much the same in interviews. I agree that her agreeing to care for Uther after everything he's done to her, shows her in a totally positive light - willing to do anything for the man she loves. Who here would undertake that task so selflishly?



    I think the cheating IS a given not just because that is the version that people know but because i'm sure during panels the writers and cast have alluded to that being the known future. They might add a twist where she thinks Arthur is dead/is under a spell or end the final series at the point of the wedding before the adultery is meant to take place but i'm 99% sure cheating in some form is the shows intended canon.

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    legend-dreamer

    [178]Oct 2, 2011
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    I love how TPTB have created a new version of Gwen. Being a lover of almost any kind of Arthurian story, I have read many different versions of Arthur's Queen (ie. Queen of Camelot by Nancy McKenzie) Seeing how each story recreates her. Explaining why Gwen is who she is and why she does what she does. It makes her a more human and believable character.
    I do agree that her character has not been properly developed on Merlin. But it looks like this could be the season to change that. I think Angel Coulby was the perfect choice for this version of Gwen.
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    boom-moo

    [179]Oct 2, 2011
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    chrolligal, please note that any information concerning series 4 that hasn't been officially released by the BBC (panels, interviews, etc) is a spoiler and should be considered as such, aka only referred to at the spoilers thread. So far so good (considering what we've seen in officially released previews) but since it is easy to be carried away while stating a point please everyone keep it in mind.
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    JJuna

    [180]Oct 2, 2011
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    boom-moo wrote:
    The whole scene of her going up to lance only to ask him to look after Arthur knowing full well that Lance cares for her too was so sad. He looked like he'd been hit in the face. Plot wise she could have just as easily asked her brother so it's clearly meant either to convey her as unfeeling towards Lance or it will be the catalyst to a major guilt/grief/love rekindled storyline on her part if Lancelot does as she requested and dies in place of Arthur. I found that scene a bit ambiguous. Why didn't Gwen ask her brother, or even Sir Leon (with whom she grew up apparently) or Sir Gwaine (with whom she seems to have developed a friendship) instead? She surely trusts them too. It could be read as if Lancelot is the only one Gwen wouldn't care being spared, as if she has totally moved on and doesn't mind making it very clear to Lancelot or it could be read as if Lancelot is the one she considers the bravest, most loyal and trustworthy to do the right thing despite his own feelings, just like he did in 2x04. I guess it has multiple readings for different viewers/shippers.


    Yes, it is ambiguous, but at the least she could be accused of being insensitive and selfish, whatever her own motivations were. It shows her with some human failings. However, I think it was probably done to wring every bit of drama/tragedy out of the forthcoming plotline, rather than to deliberately portray her in a negative light. I also don't assume that TPTB are always clear, consistent and logical in the way that they write the characters, with Morgana being the most obvious example of this.

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