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The Queen of Clean - Guinevere thread

  • Avatar of LizzyGlue

    LizzyGlue

    [182]Oct 2, 2011
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    I think she went to Lance because she knows he is the most skilled and courageous swordsman in the group, also because she knows his loyalty to Arthur is strong. I don't believe she meant to be unfeeling towards him, on the contrary. She fell for him as her "equal" socially but circumstances lead her to return the genuine feelings of her "superior" socially. I don't believe that erases the good opinion or friendship she has shown for both these excellent men in the series.

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    JJuna

    [183]Oct 2, 2011
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    LizzyGlue wrote:


    I think she went to Lance because she knows he is the most skilled and courageous swordsman in the group, also because she knows his loyalty to Arthur is strong. I don't believe she meant to be unfeeling towards him, on the contrary. She fell for him as her "equal" socially but circumstances lead her to return the genuine feelings of her "superior" socially. I don't believe that erases the good opinion or friendship she has shown for both these excellent men in the series.



    I agree with you She may have meant it as the ultimate compliment, but I still think she didn't consider his feelings enough. He looked so pleased at her approach, but couldn't help being hurt by her request. He did actually flinch, although he recovered his composure quickly. That was wonderfully subtle acting by Santiago by the way


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    RosyHello

    [185]Oct 2, 2011
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    Consider Lancelot's feelings? It's possible that she doesn't even realize that he still has feelings for her at least not romantic feelings. Itshows to me that they haven't had any real contact from the whole year that Lancelot has been back. In fact it shows that while he had feelings for her he has not acted on any of it or Gwen would have felt uncomfortable approaching him with her request. She is not the type to easily overlook someone's feelings especially delibrately try to hurt him. That's not Gwen's characterization.


    I think the whole 4x01 L/G scene shows that Gwen as moved on emotionally from Lancelot. She also let him know in three scenes now that her romantic feelings are with Arthur. Her concern and worry is for Arthur. Even the actress as stated basically that Gwen loves Arthur. Gwen also knows that Lance is Arthur's best fighting knight. Lance is the only one that was able to beat Arthur in a sword fight. Remember this is a show geared to the understanding of pre teens and even younger. They are going to take away only one meaning especially after the ....take care...you are precious too not just the kingdom.." scene.


    As for her feelings will never change speech. Well, humans have been known for feelings changing. Millions of people get married every year and vow to love someone forever...or until death and all that and some never make it to their first wedding anniversary. Feelings change especially when that person leaves you without a goodbye, or tells you that you can't ever be together. The heart can sometimes mend and find another love. Thank goodness for that.


    Lancelot left her and she never heard from him for at least a year. She has had continous contact with Arthur everyday for years. Arthur has told her time and time again that he loves her and wants her for his queen. Even shouting it out for anyone to hear. In addition, he's even vowed to give up the throne for her, several times. He has declared his love for hermany timeseven his father. The "I'll always love you scene" after she was sentenced to death for being withhim was very powerful. If she didn't love him why risk prison or even death to spend an afternoon with him. Just the "I'll always love you" would be enongh for any girl that half way found him attractive to find herself thinking only of him. A man can win the heart of a woman from another man, especially if that man is not aroundenough and she islonely. It happens all the time. But it doesn't happen over night unless she had no feelings at all for the man she's leaving.


    As for Gwen cheating...well, since some just can't imagine it not being a full blown extramarital sex feast affair, maybe it's best to let them have their opinion and wait for the writers to show us allkind of scenario they will have.No amount of argument is going to change their opinion. Regardless of how the writers handle it, it's their show and they can do whatever they want. The rest of us will have to accept it anyway it is played out.



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    JJuna

    [186]Oct 3, 2011
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    [QUOTE="RosyHello"]


    Consider Lancelot's feelings? It's possible that she doesn't even realize that he still has feelings for her at least not romantic feelings. Itshows to me that they haven't had any real contact from the whole year that Lancelot has been back. In fact it shows that while he had feelings for her he has not acted on any of it or Gwen would have felt uncomfortable approaching him with her request. She is not the type to easily overlook someone's feelings especially delibrately try to hurt him. That's not Gwen's characterization.


    Yes, I did say in an earlier post that I thought that the way he looked so surprised and pleased at her approach indicated to me that there had been little interaction between them in the intervening year. I also definitely don't think she was deliberately trying to hurt him - I agree that's not in her character. However, her expression showed me that she was engrossed in her own concerns, and I maintain that she was at the least insensitive. Just because she has moved on emotionally doesn't mean that he has - and she should have considered that possibility. Presumably she is aware that he is not attached to anyone else.


    Ithink the whole 4x01 L/G scene shows that Gwen as moved on emotionally from Lancelot. She also let him know in three scenes now that her romantic feelings are with Arthur. Her concern and worry is for Arthur. Even the actress as stated basically that Gwen loves Arthur. Gwen also knows that Lance is Arthur's best fighting knight. Lance is the onlyone that was able to beat Arthur in a sword fight. Remember this is a show geared to the understanding of pre teens and even younger. They are going to take away only one meaning especially after the ....take care...you are precious too not just the kingdom.." scene.


    I agree that there is no doubt that her love is for Arthur. This is exactly as it should be in a family show, and I don't want to see any betrayal at all. As a Lancelot fan, I would be very happy indeed if he continued in his role as a loyal and noble knight of Camelot. I loved his interaction with Merlin in this episode, and am not looking forward to seeing any romantic attachment with Gwen.


    Lancelot left her and she never heard from him for at least a year. She has had continous contact with Arthur everyday for years. Arthur has told her time and time again that he loves her and wants her for his queen.


    This provides a very good explanation for her feelings. We will never know what would have been the outcome if Lancelot had stayed in Camelot, but the writers were very careful to remove that possibility. As you said, the writers can do whatever they want with the plot, and we will just have to wait and see what happens





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    boom-moo

    [187]Oct 3, 2011
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    she was engrossed in her own concerns, and I maintain that she was at the least insensitive. Just because she has moved on emotionally doesn't mean that he has - and she should have considered that possibility. Presumably she is aware that he is not attached to anyone else. I agree, I don't like it how she came through as insensitive. Might be that the writers intended to make clear that she has moved on, but they could have added a line where Gwen asks Lancelot to take good care of himself as well or something and extend the feeling to all the knights who were standing by in their horses. Surely wouldn't have hurt.

    As for her feelings will never change speech. Well, humans have been known for feelings changing. Millions of people get married every year and vow to love someone forever...or until death and all that and some never make it to their first wedding anniversary. Feelings change especially when that person leaves you without a goodbye, or tells you that you can't ever be together. The heart can sometimes mend and find another love. Thank goodness for that. Yeah, fortunately feelings change and people move on but one could tell going with TPTB's storylines that Gwen's seem to change a lot. (Ignoring the thing with Merlin) she seems to be into Lancelot in 1x05, then Arthur before 2x04, then Lancelot in 2x04, then back to Arthur.

    It's great to play around with the legend and it's great that every viewer/shipper can get what they want but I don't think we should clutch our pearls when someone sees something really different than what we do. I think the writers are keeping an ambiguous tone quite on purpose.
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  • Avatar of merthurwen

    merthurwen

    [188]Oct 3, 2011
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    I think the cheating IS a given not just because that is the version that people know but because i'm sure during panels the writers and cast have alluded to that being the known future. They might add a twist where she thinks Arthur is dead/is under a spell or end the final series at the point of the wedding before the adultery is meant to take place but i'm 99% sure cheating in some form is the shows intended canon.



    I'm going to jump in here and I'm going to try to be gentle. Cheating is only canon if you accept that "popular" legend canon is actually canon and that "popular" canon must be portrayed. If you are of that mind set then surely you are no longer watching this show.


    The Merlin team has already blended "pop" canon with Welsh "real" canon by firstly reclaiming the heroic Welsh King who was the great Arthur of legend from Chretien de Troyes who not only managed to turn the great Welsh King into a cuckold but who also usurped his virility and became the hero of the story. Least you forget, we've already had the kidnapping and (as I've pointed out before), in this telling it is Arthur who rescues not only his fair maiden but the would be knight with a heart of gold as well.



    Though the team has stated they will deal with the triangle it seems that they are also reclaiming Gwen. After all she is so not the Gwen of "pop" legend. She is a free moral agent. She's not a pampered privileged princess being forced to marry a doddering old King who is wise but rules from the throne instead of setting the example for both his knights and people, and so lacking that he is unaware of or indifferent to his wife's treachery.



    This Gwen is in fact being treated as a person, and seems to be the good and faithful Queen she was prior to Geoffrey of Monmouth's misogyny. Add to that she is being courted by a young (sometimes charming) Prince who is a rough tough save the world sort. One who is very aware of and apparently not turning a blind eye to Lance's desire for his woman. Add to that Lancelot is not her star crossed lover, in fact if she loves him she need only choose him. The point being they have intentionally given us a Gwen who has had to walk through the fire just to be with Arthur so why would they turn her into a misogynist's dream...surely not for the sake of adhering to the "canon" of those who seem to know only post Chretien de Troyes legend, after all they haven't stuck to it so far

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    chrolligal

    [189]Oct 3, 2011
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    merthurwen wrote:


    I think the cheating IS a given not just because that is the version that people know but because i'm sure during panels the writers and cast have alluded to that being the known future. They might add a twist where she thinks Arthur is dead/is under a spell or end the final series at the point of the wedding before the adultery is meant to take place but i'm 99% sure cheating in some form is the shows intended canon.



    I'm going to jump in here and I'm going to try to be gentle. Cheating is only canon if you accept that "popular" legend canon is actually canon and that "popular" canon must be portrayed. If you are of that mind set then surely you are no longer watching this show.


    The Merlin team has already blended "pop" canon with Welsh "real" canon by firstly reclaiming the heroic Welsh King who was the great Arthur of legend from Chretien de Troyes who not only managed to turn the great Welsh King into a cuckold but who also usurped his virility and became the hero of the story. Least you forget, we've already had the kidnapping and (as I've pointed out before), in this telling it is Arthur who rescues not only his fair maiden but the would be knight with a heart of gold as well.



    Though the team has stated they will deal with the triangle it seems that they are also reclaiming Gwen. After all she is so not the Gwen of "pop" legend. She is a free moral agent. She's not a pampered privileged princess being forced to marry a doddering old King who is wise but rules from the throne instead of setting the example for both his knights and people, and so lacking that he is unaware of or indifferent to his wife's treachery.



    This Gwen is in fact being treated as a person, and seems to be the good and faithful Queen she was prior to Geoffrey of Monmouth's misogyny. Add to that she is being courted by a young (sometimes charming) Prince who is a rough tough save the world sort. One who is very aware of and apparently not turning a blind eye to Lance's desire for his woman. Add to that Lancelot is not her star crossed lover, in fact if she loves him she need only choose him. The point being they have intentionally given us a Gwen who has had to walk through the fire just to be with Arthur so why would they turn her into a misogynist's dream...surely not for the sake of adhering to the "canon" of those who seem to know only post Chretien de Troyes legend, after all they haven't stuck to it so far



    Only time will tell but for me it's not about who's version but about what those who have never read any version ( most people) assume the story is, and for me if you ask the average person in the street about the story they'll say one or all of the following :-


    1 Arthur had a round table at which him and his Knights sat


    2 Merlin was his magician


    3 Gwinevere is the queen


    4 Lancelot is the Knight who runs off with queen


    5 Sword in the stone



    The writers can do anything they want i agree but to subvert the audiences main expectations is one thing but to remove them would be a big dissapointment imo.


    I guess i'm just the kinda girl who thinks some things are too big to mess with. As a House viewer who watched it in the light of modern Sherlock homes remake the day House (Sherlock) started dating Cuddy (Mrs Hudson) I switched off. I liked all him with Cameron so it's not anti female it's just it destroyed the whole analogy for me by creating a romantic relationship between them.


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  • Avatar of merthurwen

    merthurwen

    [190]Oct 3, 2011
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    Fair enough I'm just the kind of girl who thinks that viewers can be educated and that women might actually appreciate seeing a woman of legend who is not portrayed as the cause of the fall of man.



    On ward:


    Yeah, fortunately feelings change and people move on but one could tell going with TPTB's storylines that Gwen's seem to change a lot. (Ignoring the thing with Merlin) she seems to be into Lancelot in 1x05, then Arthur before 2x04, then Lancelot in 2x04, then back to Arthur.

    It's great to play around with the legend and it's great that every viewer/shipper can get what they want but I don't think we should clutch our pearls when someone sees something really different than what we do. I think the writers are keeping an ambiguous tone quite on purpose.



    I agree however I don't really see a changeable Gwen or much ambiguity. For me they have been telling us that Gwen loves Arthur from S1E1 very subtly but from her first scene with Merlin.



    I totally appreciate that others see it differently but I never ever got that Gwen thought much of Lance in 1x05. I mean she certainly asked him not to risk his life by attempting to fight the Griffin(sp) and she certainly admired his bravery and i suppose one could say seeds were sown but she was still actively trying to get Merlin's attention that episode. 2x04 she certainly made many declarations to Lance that grew stronger the closer she came to death but she certainly didn't switch her affections from Arthur as her feelings were still undeclared even to herself and he (much to my admiration) literally told her nothing could come of that kiss. Outwardly at this point Gwen has only proclaimed feelings for Lance who then left her without a word. Months Later who knows how many, time has passed and she has moved on and it's only then that she begins to explore her feelings for Arthur and even then not realistically.



    I may be wrong but I've seen a lot hand wringing about Gwen allegedly ignoring or being harsh with Lance in 4x01 on the net. I really think it's because we see (at least at this point) she has moved on. For those who are vested in the triangle it's a bit disappointing when one third of it basically asks the third "who would die (what?) a hundred times over for her" to ensure that the third which is her heart is returned to her. Sadly enough I think she only said thank you when he once again offered his life to ensure her happiness. While she absolutely was not insensitive (in my opinion) she certainly changed the geometry because you can't have a two sided triangle.

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    boom-moo

    [192]Oct 3, 2011
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    Well BM- I'm don't consider myself a shipper of anyone or anything and of course anything I write is without a doubt my own opinion and not written to disparage or condemn an other opinion. However, I tend to take what's shown to me clearly on face value and take meaning and understand strikely from that and nothing else, even if I'm aware of other stories based on the same premise. Absolutely, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular and of course we all have an opinion and consider it the one best fitting (mine actually doesn't fit all the back and forth examples I stated in my previous post). My point was just that there are as many opinions as viewers and that, as I see it, the way the show is written in general and when it comes to Guinevere in particular has allowed for different points of view to arise.
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    RosyHello

    [193]Oct 3, 2011
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    BM - I apologize. I removed my post that was ahead of yours because I wanted to add something and you can't edit on thissite.This ishow I wanted it to read.


    Merth- well said, well said.


    It's great to play around with the legend and it's great that every viewer/shipper can get what they want but I don't think we should clutch our pearls when someone sees something really different than what we do. I think the writers are keeping an ambiguous tone quite on purpose.


    Well BM- I'm don't consider myself a shipper of anyone or anything and of course anything I write is without a doubt my own opinion and not written to disparage or condemn an other opinion. However, I tend to take what's shown to me clearly on face value and take meaning and understand strikely from that and nothing else, even if I'm aware of other stories based on the same premise.


    As for going back and forward. I can see that as well. She is or was attracted to both men. But both made her choice for her what she might want consulted, several times in fact.However, what I see now is Arthur's moved up in her heart by several degrees. Especially with his public and verbal declaration of his love for her, even to his father. I have yet to hear Lancelot say he loves her. I have from Arthur several times now with words and deeds.


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    boom-moo

    [194]Oct 3, 2011
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    That's ok, my reply is the same in any case
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  • Avatar of RosyHello

    RosyHello

    [195]Oct 3, 2011
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    This may be a double post because I removed a post after a reply was made so my post may be just ahead of this. Again, if so I apologize. But without being able to edit, I'm stuck doing it this way.


    Chro - I'm glad you stated you are a female. For me that explains a lot.


    I'm not surepeople would say she runs off with Lancelot, but they would definately say something like "...didn't she have an affair with Lancelot?"


    First there are many things the average viewer/person would say about this premise, including the fact that Merlin should be twice the age of Arthur. I don't know anyone that would not say that. In fact when I first started watching this show,I thought Guius was Merlin and it took me a bit of time to accept that the young man standing next to him was Merlin. So for these writers, they aretaking liberty with these characters and we might get anything in regardles to A/G/L.


    So for me I believethere should be some kind of interaction and feelings expressed with Gwen and Lancelot, of course and for me I would be amiss if there were not. But I'm also very willing to accepthowever these writers bring it because I'm more than willing to accept what they have already changed that was an adjustment to my sensilibiities. Because of thatand I'm still willing to watch, I willalso give them the liberty to write what they want aboutA/G/Las well.

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    jaqtkd

    [196]Oct 3, 2011
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    @Merthurwen. You and I are very much in agreement here. I do think there was part of the 1.01 Gwen that liked Arthur but would never admit it (and I'm fairy certain Merlin was callling her on it too) but I do think she wasn't really aware of that and was flirting with Merlin because she though he would be a better bet. Equally, I think she did fall for Lancelot but again, because he was a type of Arthur that she could actually have. As opposed to her idealising the Crown Prince. (Many here might wish to marry Colin or Bradley but, are they going to turn someone more realistic down when they declare their love? Of course not)


    Not only is our Gwen is so far removed from legend but, as I said earlier, my 'uneducated' knowledge of the Arthurian legend was that Guinevere and Lancelot were in love but never acted on it because they also both loved Arthur. I came across 'marital affair' concept much later on and so that seems idea seems very, very weird to me (and it can't be done on 'Merlin' both because of 'family viewing' and because any potential affair would happen years in the future.


    Can we really give Gwen a hard time now for something that one alternative universe version did ten years in the future?

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    chrolligal

    [197]Oct 3, 2011
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    [QUOTE="RosyHello"]



    Chro - I'm glad you stated you are a female. For me that explains a lot.


    QUOTE


    What exactly does it explain? Are women more strict about adhering to canon?

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    merthurwen

    [198]Oct 3, 2011
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    I guess i'm just the kinda girl who thinks some things are too big to mess with. As a House viewer who watched it in the light of modern Sherlock homes remake the day House (Sherlock) started dating Cuddy (Mrs Hudson) I switched off. I liked all him with Cameron so it's not anti female it's just it destroyed the whole analogy for me by creating a romantic relationship between them. (sorry wrong quote)



    Please don't take this as a challenge to your world view and if you feel it is please just disregard this. But as a woman I'd love to understand what the payoff is for a woman to be so caught up in an idea that really is spawned from male hatred of the feminine.



    For instance the Guinevere conspirator/adulteress concept came from the fact the Mordred (while Arthur was away) took over the keep and claimed her as his (likely to lay claim to the crown. In this scenario what exactly was she to do. She was likely rapped and used as a pawn through no fault of her own and most historians held her blameless in the situation. Geoffrey of Monmouth who actually chronicled the tale decided she was an adulteress who conspired against the king. A take likely born of the times when men thought that if a woman was rapped she somehow was asking for it or at the very least should have had the decency to kill herself after the act. From that point on most legend start to write Gwen as an adulteress. Then comes along what you view as canon and she not only becomes an adulteress but an eve to boot who brought down paradise.



    As a heterosexual female who really likes my sex, I hated Arthurian legend because it is filled with misogyny this being the worse case. So I truly would like to understand what canon or not needs to be protected about this.



    @Jaktd (sorry I messed up your moniker) We totally agree. I too think Gwen had feelings for Lance, (admiration , gratitude and even honor as she can't have missed the fact that he liked her) and had he been the man Arthur was and actually honored her with his doubts, or asked her what she wanted perhaps she would have chosen the easier path with him. The seeds were there but they were never tended and I just cannot buy into that as real love.


    I think she loved Arthur (puppy love) most of her life and never dreamed there was any chance. The way she held that first kiss looked like a lifetime of longing momentarily realized. I also truly think she had a real crush on Merlin and that she loves him. Not to plant any ideas but actually if he had been the 3rd leg of the triangle I could buy into that. He's actually been there for her more than Arthur and I can readily see a girl confusing Merlin's general love of people with romantic love.



    @RosyHello, you make me smile. You are fierce and dispassionate. I on the other hand readily admit I totally and completely ship Merlin and Arthur's friendship. It is the ideal and as a cynic it warms my heart. Same said for Arthur and Gwen's love but more importantly the friendship that binds the three of them. I would be terribly disappointed if the writers tear down a woman whom they have built up as loyal kind and grounded but not necessarily surprised as I may be wrong but I haven't seen any female writers. It would serve no purposed but to reinforce stupid stereotypes.



    Here is Arthur who loves completely a woman whom he has risked everything for only to be betrayed, after all women are not to be trusted. They are mercurial shallow least we forget sinful by nature and mans weakness not his strength. C'mon tel me you're just a little vested in the depiction of a good woman.

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    LizzyGlue

    [199]Oct 3, 2011
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    boom-moo wrote:
    boom-moo:I don't think we should clutch our pearls when someone sees something really different than what we do. I think the writers are keeping an ambiguous tone quite on purpose.
    I so totally agree. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

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    RosyHello

    [200]Oct 3, 2011
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    She was engrossed in her own concerns, and I maintain that she was at the least insensitive. Just because she has moved on emotionally doesn't mean that he has - and she should have considered that possibility. Presumably she is aware that he is not attached to anyone else.


    I agree, I don't like it how she came through as insensitive. Might be that the writers intended to make clear that she has moved on, but they could have added a line where Gwen asks Lancelot to take good care of himself as well or something and extend the feeling to all the knights who were standing by in their horses. Surely wouldn't have hurt.


    Merth- Thanks.


    Well, now, while I would agree with the above statements I can also understand why she wouldn't andwhy the writers didn't write such. For one, if she has said anything more than what she did or even gave him a smile of hello, there would be cries all over the internet, that she doesn't know what she wants and she's in love with Lancelot. She's a liar and she's going back and forward with them. She's leading Lancelot on and she's using Arthur...on and on and on ad nauseum. While I did feel the switch back between the men eariler, I just don't anymore. For one, she's in love with Arthur, she watched him say goodbye to his father in a way she had never seen him do before. Arthur has been off on quests and missions a thousand times but this is the first time he said such a heartfelt poinant goodbye to Uther.


    He never told her that he was going to take himself somewhere to die but she felt it. She knew it without a word from him and in fact, I believe it scared her deeply. When you love someone and you can't do anything to save them, you act on emotion, passion and that's what she did. I don't see it so much as "her own concern" but her desire to see the man that she loves return from war, alive, so to speak. Thus she wasn't operating from her own selfishness but more from her love for him. There is a difference for me.


    As for talking to all the knights...well, she's not the queen. She is still a servant andjust asking Lancelot what she did could be viewed as inapproprate and believing that he somehow wouldn't protect Arthur with his life,demanding to his status as a Knight of Camelot. I mean did she really think he wouldn't? But then I felt that scene was epic in it's approach of her future status as his queen and wife and her relationship to his knights as a whole. She couldn't ask all of them anything and she couldn't approach them as if she was giving them orders. But he trusted Lancelot and believed he was a trusted friend, thus the private request to him. But what I liked is that although her plea was deeply passionate, it was noble and regal and therefore the request became very appropriate for a woman that lovesArthur not because of what he is but because of who he is especially in her heart. I saw Queen Guinevere not Gwen the servant.


    So for me I would have written it just the way it played. Nice job there.



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