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BBC (ended 2012)

You will Show Me Some Respect! (Uther Thread)

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    dpebbleson

    [41]Dec 12, 2010
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    Ah, yes, that changes things dramatically. Quoting it right is half of the job

    I agree, Nimueh couldn't have known Ygraine would die. Or the consequences. If she knew, she would have never done it.

    Uther is a hypocrite, as usual.
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    okajou8000

    [42]Dec 12, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    Ah, yes, that changes things dramatically. Quoting it right is half of the job I agree, Nimueh couldn't have known Ygraine would die. Or the consequences. If she knew, she would have never done it. Uther is a hypocrite, as usual.



    not certain, we can not trust Nimueh, she could at least explain him that there was a risk he loses his wife, but she didn't........and she did the same thing with Merlin, when he came to save Arthur's life in exchange of his, she didn't explain him either that it can be the life of someone else!!

    Edited on 12/12/2010 2:42pm
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    boom-moo

    [43]Dec 12, 2010
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    She warned both that the deal was a life for a life, but Uther and Merlin were both too desperate to realized that those lives could be the ones of someone dear to them.

    I'm pretty certain Nimueh didn't know it would be Ygraine the one to die (nothing good came out of it for her, quite on the contrary) but I think she should have made a more clear warn to Merlin. She tells Gaius that with all her seer powers she never saw it coming (Gaius being willing to exchange his life for Hunith's, so Merlin doesn't trade his and lives to fulfill his destiny) so I'm not sure she saw the bit about Hunith's life being taken in exchange of Arthur's either.
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    fantasymommy

    [44]Dec 12, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    She warned both that the deal was a life for a life, but Uther and Merlin were both too desperate to realized that those lives could be the ones of someone dear to them.

    I'm pretty certain Nimueh didn't know it would be Ygraine the one to die (nothing good came out of it for her, quite on the contrary) but I think she should have made a more clear warn to Merlin. She tells Gaius that with all her seer powers she never saw it coming (Gaius being willing to exchange his life for Hunith's, so Merlin doesn't trade his and lives to fulfill his destiny) so I'm not sure she saw the bit about Hunith's life being taken in exchange of Arthur's either.


    Again, it seems the rules are 'there are no rules'! TPTB like to keep us guessing or we think about things much more critically than they do! I would assume it would be to easy for 'the magic' to allow the person making the deal to sacrifice him/herself...that takes the control away from the magic.
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    boom-moo

    [45]Dec 12, 2010
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    fantasymommy wrote:
    TPTB like to keep us guessing or we think about things much more critically than they do
    We definitely do.

    fantasymommy wrote:
    I would assume it would be to easy for 'the magic' to allow the person making the deal to sacrifice him/herself...that takes the control away from the magic.
    However Nimueh seems to have some control over it. When Gaius shows up asking for his life to be taken, she obliges. I don't think she can choose what life would be the one taken when the bargain is struck, but she seems to have the power to twist ends a bit.

    It's all indeed vague and unclear and leave it to us to think it over and over and over when TPTB don't seem to bother indeed. Unless they leave loose ends to revisit topics, but the 2nd appearance of the Cup of Life had a different meaning.
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    fantasymommy

    [46]Dec 12, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    fantasymommy wrote:
    TPTB like to keep us guessing or we think about things much more critically than they do
    We definitely do.

    fantasymommy wrote:
    I would assume it would be to easy for 'the magic' to allow the person making the deal to sacrifice him/herself...that takes the control away from the magic.
    However Nimueh seems to have some control over it. When Gaius shows up asking for his life to be taken, she obliges. I don't think she can choose what life would be the one taken when the bargain is struck, but she seems to have the power to twist ends a bit.

    It's all indeed vague and unclear and leave it to us to think it over and over and over when TPTB don't seem to bother indeed. Unless they leave loose ends to revisit topics, but the 2nd appearance of the Cup of Life had a different meaning.


    I hope the COL is put to rest for a while...it is loosing it's appeal. It is too easy an 'out' for many situations..
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    boom-moo

    [47]Dec 12, 2010
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    Yeah, it should be with the druids. I like the idea that Merlin won't have it at hand (apparently it wasn't found in the debris, although taht is not clear either), it'd make his life too easy.
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    fantasymommy

    [48]Dec 12, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    Yeah, it should be with the druids. I like the idea that Merlin won't have it at hand (apparently it wasn't found in the debris, although taht is not clear either), it'd make his life too easy.


    Arthur wanted to put it in the vaults...but do you think (if it was found in the debris) that he could resist using it in extreme situations? He would have to know someone who could spin the magic...who could that be??
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    boom-moo

    [49]Dec 12, 2010
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    fantasymommy wrote:
    Arthur wanted to put it in the vaults...but do you think (if it was found in the debris) that he could resist using it in extreme situations? He would have to know someone who could spin the magic...who could that be??
    Merlin has access to the keys and he can make objects levitate (when it suits TPTB) so he would have access to the cup. Now he might not have the power to cast spells and put it to good use but who knows if he'll ever do or what other random uses could the cup have?
    Edited on 12/12/2010 5:38pm
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    Tankim

    [50]Dec 13, 2010
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    ACDiNosey wrote:
    Morgana's line to Uther at the beginning of COA2 (You cannot even begin to understand how much I hate you) to me is strongly linked with one of the first scenes of TOA1 where Uther is desperate to find Morgana and we see all those knights killed on the battlefield. It is also echoed by the Crystal Cave and the use of magic to save Morgana's life. In other words, if Uther cannot even begin to understand how much Morgana hates him, Morgana in turn cannot start to fathom how much Uther loves her... But in both cases the result is the same: a lot of innocents die so that this love/hatred may run its course. It's heartbreaking when you think about it...
    I agree. And hate and love lies so close together. I'm still wondering what made Morgana so mad, so full of hate that she doesn't even care about those who have always supported her. She has always been quite manipulative, so I would expect her to at least try to change Uther's mind now that she has learnt how much he loves her. In the first season it might not have come so clear to her that Uther cares about her but in the following seasons it was more than obvious. Ah, okay, Morgana has her own thread here, sorry for being off topic



    boom-moo wrote:
    Yes, it was a bit weird but think about it: Gwen managed to touch the one very soft spot of Uther's: Ygraine. Gwen said that Uther wouldn't understand what true love is, and Uther seems to truly have loved Ygraine with heart and soul. Gwen messed both with Uther's feelings towards Ygraine and with his only son, Arthur, the one person Uther loves and has left in the world


    That's an interesting point. I haven't considered it because I thought Gwen was referring to the serving girl part. You might be right that Uther thought, Gwen was responding to love at all and maybe she even did. Still... as someone who is not respected by Uther he took her much too seriously. Hmmm... if he respects her one way or the other, yes, she could provoke him. If she ist not respected by him, I'm not so sure....That's another thing I am wondering about. One day he cris in front of Merlin and shows him his feelings and then he tells Arthur that Gwen is not worth to be rescued because she is only a serving girl and can easily be replaced by someone else. He either respects servants or he doesn't. Moreover, he told Merlin that he knew how much Gaius cares about Merlin and that he is like a son to him but easily believes Gaius (the goblin actually) when he blames Merlin of using magic. Blind at one time, sensitive at another (noticing Gaius' fatherly love). Shouldn't he get a little suspicious when Gaius blames Merlin of something?



    As for Nimuh - exactly my thoughts that she did not tell all the possible consequences. She could have said "I don't know who will die but it might even be Igraine". I mean, when a friend of mine is about to do something dangerous, I'm telling them all possible consequences I can think of. If they intended to jump from a cliff into the water I'm not just saying that the water might be cold but telling them that they might crash down onto a rock or onto the surface or that they might drown due to a shock or the riptide or whatever.... Nimueh had the power to prevent all those happenings just by simply telling the truth (all possible consequences). She didn't, so Uther is not the only one to blame. The Old Religion killed Igraine. By the way, the Old Religion seems to be quite strange anyway. I am not sure what it is all about and I consider the possibility that Arthur's birth was predestined.



    And as for Uther sending Gorlois deliberately into war... that's what I would like to know too. I want to think that he didn't but who knows? Oh, I wish Merlin would get 10 seasons and had 22 episodes per season. How many loose ends could they tie up if it was that way? For example, they could let us know more about the protagonist's grandparents. I found the deleted scenes about Uther's father losing his mind very interesting. And what about Gaius's family? Or Merlin's grandparents? Who had magic and what kind of magic?

    Edited on 12/13/2010 3:06am
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    boom-moo

    [51]Dec 13, 2010
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    Tankim wrote:
    You might be right that Uther thought, Gwen was responding to love at all and maybe she even did. Still... as someone who is not respected by Uther he took her much too seriously. Hmmm... if he respects her one way or the other, yes, she could provoke him. If she ist not respected by him, I'm not so sure...
    Well, I think that coming from a lowly servant it is a bigger aggravation. As Uther has said more than once, servants are dispensable and certainly not in a position to question the king's judgement. Arthur at times and Gaius most of the time question Uther's decisions. Even Sir Leon on occasion. Uther gets angry and defensive but he doesn't take them as a direct offense. But coming from a servant it is an insult to him, something he can't tolerate or stand at all.

    Tankim wrote:
    One day he cris in front of Merlin and shows him his feelings and then he tells Arthur that Gwen is not worth to be rescued because she is only a serving girl and can easily be replaced by someone else. He either respects servants or he doesn't. Moreover, he told Merlin that he knew how much Gaius cares about Merlin and that he is like a son to him but easily believes Gaius (the goblin actually) when he blames Merlin of using magic. Blind at one time, sensitive at another (noticing Gaius' fatherly love). Shouldn't he get a little suspicious when Gaius blames Merlin of something?
    Well, I like that. Uther very rarely lets his feelings show and that is when is he is deeply affected by something, be it good (thanking Merlin at the end of 2x08, and this still came with a death threat) or bad (crying in front of Merlin for the loss of his daughter). However, I don't think that crying in front of Merlin means that he respects him. I'm with you though that he should have suspected of Gaius doing anything to put Merlin's life in danger, but hey.

    Tankim wrote:
    As for Nimuh - exactly my thoughts that she did not tell all the possible consequences. She could have said "I don't know who will die but it might even be Igraine" (...) Nimueh had the power to prevent all those happenings just by simply telling the truth (all possible consequences). She didn't, so Uther is not the only one to blame. The Old Religion killed Igraine.
    I guess that maybe it didn't occur to Nimueh that it could be Ygraine's life the one to be taken in exchange of her son's. I still don't see any reason why Nimueh wouldn't have warned Uther if she knew or guessed that was gonna happen. And yes, the Old Religion killed Ygraine (neither Nimueh or Uther) but it was Uther the one who ordered for the deal to be made.

    Tankim wrote:
    And what about Gaius's family? Or Merlin's grandparents? Who had magic and what kind of magic?
    Well, apparently Gaius and Hunith are siblings (or half siblings) so Merlin has certainly inherited magic from his father's side and maybe from his mother's too (depending on which parent Gaius and Hunith share) since it seems to run in the families.
    Edited on 12/13/2010 3:33am
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    Tankim

    [52]Dec 13, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:

    Tankim wrote:
    And what about Gaius's family? Or Merlin's grandparents? Who had magic and what kind of magic?
    Well, apparently Gaius and Hunith are siblings (or half siblings) so Merlin has certainly inherited magic from his father's side and maybe from his mother's too (depending on which parent Gaius and Hunith share) since it seems to run in the families.


    Huh? Half siblings... how could I have missed this? In which episode did this occur? :O
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    boom-moo

    [53]Dec 13, 2010
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    Tankim wrote:
    Huh? Half siblings... how could I have missed this? In which episode did this occur? :O
    It hasn't been mentioned in the show but in interviews and stuff. I posted the links to those interviews ages ago, let me find them...

    ... here you go:

    boom-moo wrote:

    In episode 1x07 of Secrets and Magic, it is mentioned twice about Gaius being Merlin's uncle. Around 3:30 here and around 5:08 here

    At the beginning of this interview, Richard says "My step sister Hunith sends me her son Merlin".



    I don't know if the links will work by now.
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    Tankim

    [54]Dec 13, 2010
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    Ah, thank you, boom-moo. I had no idea. How interesting!
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    fantasymommy

    [55]Dec 13, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    Tankim wrote:
    Huh? Half siblings... how could I have missed this? In which episode did this occur? :O
    It hasn't been mentioned in the show but in interviews and stuff. I posted the links to those interviews ages ago, let me find them...

    ... here you go:

    boom-moo wrote:

    In episode 1x07 of Secrets and Magic, it is mentioned twice about Gaius being Merlin's uncle. Around 3:30 here and around 5:08 here

    At the beginning of this interview, Richard says "My step sister Hunith sends me her son Merlin".



    I don't know if the links will work by now.


    Hummm...does Merlin ever refer to Gaius as his Uncle? I only remember him using the term guardian...
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    boom-moo

    [56]Dec 13, 2010
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    Nope, he doesn't. Neither does Gaius refer to him as a "nephew" although he's said a lot of times that he considers Merlin as a son.

    I guess that the fact that Gaius and Hunith are siblings or half siblings is part of the background that the actors were given when they were becoming familiar with their characters although some of that information doesn't get mentioned in the show.

    I remember Alvarr saying in Secrets and Magic that Uther had killed his parents (who were magical too) when he was a child but I don't think that was mentioned in the episode either.
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    okajou8000

    [57]Dec 13, 2010
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    boom-moo wrote:
    Nope, he doesn't. Neither does Gaius refer to him as a "nephew" although he's said a lot of times that he considers Merlin as a son. I guess that the fact that Gaius and Hunith are siblings or half siblings is part of the background that the actors were given when they were becoming familiar with their characters although some of that information doesn't get mentioned in the show. I remember Alvarr saying in Secrets and Magic that Uther had killed his parents (who were magical too) when he was a child but I don't think that was mentioned in the episode either.


    they keep telling us a bunch of informations that sometimes needs to be clarified!!.....and most of them are related to Uther's past, they can eventually make an episode abt it, and explain how Arthur was born, in which circumstances, why Nimueh didn't explain to Uther all the consequences that his wish can engender, how Morgause's father and mother died, and why is she so angry against Uther, why Uther did not banish or kill Gaius that can use magic (and Uther seems to be aware of it!!!), how Merlin got his powers (well, we know abt his father being a dragonlord, but it does not explain every thing!!), why do they call him "emeriss"??...and more!!!!.....


    aaaaah turning totally mad with all these questions!! O.o

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    boom-moo

    [58]Dec 13, 2010
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    I think that Merlin's powers are inherited from his father, I don't think there's any other explanation. Magic seems to run down in the families, since most of the the magical people we are introduced to have either magical parents or magical kids.

    Those who know Merlin as "Emrys" have a knowledge of the Old Religion. I guess he is part of a prophecy/destiny those people are aware of and were aware of before Merlin himself heard of it.
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    Tankim

    [59]Dec 13, 2010
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    okajou8000 wrote:

    boom-moo wrote:
    Nope, he doesn't. Neither does Gaius refer to him as a "nephew" although he's said a lot of times that he considers Merlin as a son. I guess that the fact that Gaius and Hunith are siblings or half siblings is part of the background that the actors were given when they were becoming familiar with their characters although some of that information doesn't get mentioned in the show. I remember Alvarr saying in Secrets and Magic that Uther had killed his parents (who were magical too) when he was a child but I don't think that was mentioned in the episode either.


    they keep telling us a bunch of informations that sometimes needs to be clarified!!.....and most of them are related to Uther's past, they can eventually make an episode abt it, and explain how Arthur was born, in which circumstances, why Nimueh didn't explain to Uther all the consequences that his wish can engender, how Morgause's father and mother died, and why is she so angry against Uther, why Uther did not banish or kill Gaius that can use magic (and Uther seems to be aware of it!!!), how Merlin got his powers (well, we know abt his father being a dragonlord, but it does not explain every thing!!), why do they call him "emeriss"??...and more!!!!.....


    aaaaah turning totally mad with all these questions!! O.o



    LOL, I concur! Another reason why Uther's screentime is much, much too short.
    And considering the fact that there is only two more seasons to come, and maybe shorter ones...I don't know if all the questions will be answered.
    I'm all for a Merlin spin off which is called "Uther"
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    boom-moo

    [60]Dec 13, 2010
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    Tankim wrote:
    I'm all for a Merlin spin off which is called "Uther"
    A prequel!
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