I absolutely love most haunted and can see how Karl, Yvette and Stuart ( soz about spelling not so good with names) are trying to recreate the brilliant mix of suspense, fun and excitement. Kath had had her day in the old most haunted she wet a bit weird and self important but the raport between the others made the show. 'Really' have made the atmosphere wrong by the way it's filmed. Don't know how but they've managed it. They need a medium and Leslie back with her amazing history information and the laughs her and Yvette have, Fred Batt a self named demonologist who 1st appeared with a haunted house then night club now some how he is on the show. He has no charisma and stutters and dithers along with his non information and bewildered looks, he has to know someone to have gotten the job and needs to go , honestly he needs to go or the show will flop he's bringing it down and I fast forward it as soon as he speaks and a lot of my friends do the same or just don't watch it anymore. Brig Leslie back and a good medium and get th real most haunted back PLEASE
I was a big fan of Most Haunted. Had all the DVD's and watched them for tongue in cheek entertainment. I was looking forward to the new series and have tuned in now for four(?) of the new episodes. I've never been so disappointed in my life. First of all they appear to be filming the new episodes on a budget of about five quid. The camera man is beyond appalling. Get Stuart Torevell behind the camera and ditch Chris Burton for goodness sake.
The MH team say they've gone 'back to basics' which basically means there's no night vision, therefore no atmosphere whatsoever, just a bunch of giggling idiots galumphing about waving torches and throwing things when the camera is facing the other way.
I can't believe that a team that has made 15 series of this show could get it SO wrong. They need to go back and look at why the show was popular in the first place. They had a decent five minute section at the beginning of each episode with a REAL Historian giving us the facts of the place that was about to be investigated. Now we get a ludicrously dressed 'demonologist' muttering the odd fact or two until Yvette cuts him off.
Considering the quality of the previous offerings on DVD and Living TV, this current series looks like a bunch of amateurs on a jolly, galumphing and giggling their way through an investigation.
There is no-one leading the investigation anymore, everyone seems to be shouting/talking at once, there's no structure, no atmosphere and as for the 'special guests' - just WHY????
I wanted to enjoy and like this so much and I'm so disappointed. Its a load of amateur, embarrassing rubbish from the team that actually STARTED the surge in popularity for this sort of show. I expected something so much better.
There's back to basics and there's an embarrassment - and this is the latter.
Well, after years of peace and quiet, this utter claptrap returns. After watching the first 6 episodes of the new series, I can say I'm less than impressed. No control over camerawork, no control over the "investigation", just a bunch of immature adults bumbling round a location, damaging things. How did this ever get back on air? The original series was better than this rubbish, and that's saying something. Please, please please, if these guys try and get a second comeback series commissioned, place it in the slot it truly deserves -- the trash can. If I could give a minus rating on here, I would.
Jumping cameras, showing faces only (main Yvette), no evidence caught as no locked-off cameras. Silly whistling (what is that all about), juddering movements, no structure, no planning, basically amateur TV, what a waste of an hour. Why not put on Ghost Adventures for 3 hours back to back, much more credible, entertaining, believable, a story attached - not a bunch of loosely collected people jumping, screaming, giggling and generally annoying. Have they not learnt anything from Zak? Dare I say, at least with Derek Acora we had some excitement and entertainment. Most Haunted has access to some fantastic locations and fails to deliver every time. Come on Most Haunted, get a grip, get professional, or get off!
Really looking forward to this series of Most Haunted as I hoped all the screaming and crying by a certain ex blue peter presenter would stop obviously she has'nt which is really disappointing and I won't be watching anymore, perhaps childrens television is her limit as Zak, Arron and Nick from GHOST ADVENTURES puts Most Haunted to absolute shame. SACK YVETTE FIELDING....
It's been too long since you were on air. Seems the new show, which we've been waiting for with bated breath, is going to be great. For us other paranormal shows especially Ghost adventures with slow drawling Zak, just do not hit the spot! Glad to hear Yvette's still got the scream factor, Will Lesley & Kath be back at all?
having been a believer in the paranormal for many years I was suprised to see this shambolic joke back on screen. carl or stuart fainting, lots of screaming, too many people making far too much background noise and no scientific equipment to back up the claims of a 'cold feeling' or claims of a voice heard. please take a look at ghost adventures ffs, heed the words "no big camera crews following us around"
It is a shame as Id like this show to be a success but sadly it seems they lack a budget to purchase some proper ghost hunting equipment, and some professionalism to stop this show becoming a laughing stock!
And what was the makeup girl doing on the show? Come on yvette!!
I used to watch Most Haunted and especially Most Haunted Live with the excited expectancy of a child at Christmasit was my favourite toy at a time when my own children were favourite young. As someone interested in all things paranormal, but also as a lover of both comedy and history, it had the perfect mix for me yes it was often inaccurate and it's 'evidence' was to say at the least 'questionable'but it was fun to watch and gave me plenty of family and coffee morning banter fodder. I did become disillusioned with the series towards it's end as it seemed to want to be taken more seriously but didn't have what it takes despite the best efforts of Ciaren O'Keefe; I winced at some of the more controversial episodes such as Clerkenwell and I got fed up of their obsession with the idea that the devil himself was following them to EVERY location (pretty certain they aren't THAT important).. but was always forgiving of its many historical blunders after all it did fill a gap in my viewing of the time quite nicely. Since it's departure from our screens I have been spoilt with paranormal programming excellent shows that have provided, interest, education and entertainment but I had good memories of old MH and was pleased to hear that it was to return in an online format last year. I watched it with the same anticipation of great things as myself and others had given feedback to Its creators for a good couple of years before it's return; I was looking forward to evp's; more cameras at better angles; and a bit of fun thrown in. Joy turned to horror when all I got for my years of waiting loyally was torches, tape and a guy that used to run a nightclub now claiming to be a demonologist!! It was a true head in hands moment so I decided to keep my memories and leave new MH well alone; months later the announcement came that they were to return to the Tv.. they did with the very same episode that some of the fans had paid to watch online months before. I so wanted them to do well; I'm afraid that being the first is often not an indicator of being 'the best', and this is sadly the case with Most Haunted. Yes it got the paranormal bandwagon on a steady roll that soon took off at speed but most shows completely avoided the format employed by MH and I honestly thought that its return would be something new and fresh for the modern viewer. It was more than terrible; apparently the programme makers wanted to take it back to basics and thus avoid the modern equipment that we see used in others. Unfortunately there is a severe lack of anything else to keep the viewer watching. It drags paranormal investigation back to the dark ages, there is no research; gone is the entertainment factor it's become an insult to anyone's intelligence... even those that simply watched it for fun. Others have described the episode in depth so I won't repeat the rundown but I am almost certainly sure that any negative entity 'demon' as MH would have us believe some being that has existed invisibly in the ether for goodness knows how long, that is capable of pure evil.. an entity that gathers it's energy in order to cause harm to not choose it's modern day weapon as a roll of tape! The obsession with the tape became unbearable and of course a lack of cameras and nightvision, the screaming the nose and face shots made it painful viewing. I can forgive it no longer; in fact I'm angry that one they have served up such rubbish expecting loyal fans to buy it and then when the fans said they weren't happy with it gave it to them again on Tv and two that they have ruined any good memory I ever had of the unashamedly bad original series. Now according to Karl it was UkTv's no 1 show, though the viewing figures weren't available at the time of his bold announcement, but I have read many accounts of disappointment and truly believe that only those with an impoverished sense of reality and morality will continue to allow this banal, benign showcase of total ineptitude, incompetence and idiocy into their homes. I will be sticking to the likes of Ghost Adventures , Ghost Hunters and Paranormal Witness for my paranormal viewing, and sincerely hope that MH is left to Rest in Peace with the very tiny piece of dignity it has remaining which frankly at this rate may well need duct tape to hold it in place!
I can't believe what I'm doing. I've actually signed up to only, and I do mean ONLY to write a review of Most Haunted's new series... god!!
Anyway... I can't believe how bad this program is. In the days of Derek Achora and the like, it was a half decent watch. But I've watched two of the new series and I have to say it is absolutely awful... AWFUL!!
A bunch of childish idiots bullshitting their way round "haunted" properties... my god. It's as though Yvette has learned NOTHING from her previous outings.
It was more like a really bad Scooby Doo episode, than a 'serious' reality tv program... and that's a bit of an insult to Scooby Doo (sorry Scoob!)
JUST AWFUL... AWFUL!!!!! Please take it off the air...
PLEASE... let's get ghost night on Really back on track... No more Most Haunted and no more Killer Contact (that's another terrible show - a bunch of students agreeing with each other... boooo and no GRIMM tales... c'mon guys what'ya doooin??
Most Haunted WHAT R U DOIN please research ure competition, l loved watchin Most Haunted back in the day until l saw one particular episode that changed everything. When l herd there was a NEW MOST HAUNTED l thought rite give them another chance lets c if they have upped their game, OMG l have neva seen anything so bad, ure first episode was just awfull, ude got carl in the basement with another chappie to find a roll of tape gone missin then carl goes up the stairs and low and behold this tape appears right where carl is stood, this particular episode was focussed on tape and how it waa moved SHAME, again have u researched ure competition, they r actually trying to find ghosts and also to debunk, which to me is very important to get rid of all these skeptics, u look like ure mocking people like me and millions of others that like to take this seriousley, ure competition is ghost hunters and international new ghost adventures, please take a look and take more seriousley, if u want it to b a comedy then advertise it as MOST COMMICAL, l remember in the beginning u used to b more serious now u seem to c it as a joke. Just looks like a money spinner to me, looks like carl wants a new car? get up to date guys an invest in new equipment or new peiple. WORD OF ADVICE PLEASE TAKE MORE SERIOUS, would lov a reply? x
Used to enjoy the old series, but this new series is almost unwatchable, bad cameras poor sound and stuart fainting all the time in both of the new series come on!! Fred Bat highly unwatchable, perhaps he should go back to managing a night club Poor Poor Poor will not be watching any more of this. Such a shame as it used to be good
last watched previously back in 2010 (Only 1 season)
Firstly there are now many good paranormal investigating shows around, all with there own unique take to tracking down the unseen forces that greatly mystifies the living. shows like Ghost hunters, Ghost adventures to name a few of the top.
Now with Most haunted being exposed publicly for the wrong reasons you would think they would want to come back with a bang and bring more techniques to the table (not a Ouija board i hope) my example of this would be no mediums as they have gone wrong here before with the whole Derek Acorah nonsense and also limiting people to the investigation, too many people all crammed into one room is not a great assurance for silence whilst trying to supposedly hear spirits, in addition there was also accusations of Karl and Stuart being a cause for a lot of the controversy around noise making and lets say "un honest" activity, now whether this is true or not this is something they needed to consider changing whilst coming back into the light again (no pun intended) but instead we get that very same boring hard to believe nonsense. now Most haunted will have its followers as it has been around for some time but it was clearly marked for death as I said before there are many other shows out there now that do a hell of a good job compared to most haunted.
So what do we have this time around, well I am afraid its the same as before with a sprinkle of terrible, basically lots of people walking around with lights on talking amongst themselves and then having to stop suddenly every now an then as an object will be heard falling or a door closing or a voice in the distance all of course NOT shown on camera to us the viewer, and then the bomb of all nonsense came which ended at 27 minutes for me was the apparent unconvincing passing out of Stuart. I mean come on, it is that obvious with what is known about the show in previous telling, I have no option but to doubt any credibility to this show whatsoever which is a shame as I am sure if there is a spiritual world out there and they are trying to contact us these are the people they have to use to do it with.. i would predict this show will run to the end of its season and then disappear for Derek Acorah to contact spiritually in one of his shows somewhere in the channel islands. all jokes aside this is not a serious Show in any way their techniques are clearly to gain fame not for any scientific reasons of actually finding out and proving in some way to the public ghost exist.. save your time watching this garbage.
No paranormal equipment (A camera does not count) and even the camera was not in night vision.
No static camera's
No motion sensor's
but why do they not need this equipment because they have Karl and Stuart.
this show is for entertainment value one similar to You've been framed however its a shame we here in the UK do not have a good reliable honest show that can provide us with good proof of the paranormal.
Sorry for this folks but they should be taking of the air for crimes against humanity . Do they think we are as stupid as there are for faking alleged paranormal activity.20 years I have done this line of work and never in all that time have I ever had some shoot at me "NEVER" Sorry it just does not happen that way.
Yes we know its made to entertain the masses and we know it never going to be a real paranormal investigations show due the the fact ghost or spirits dont do make or retakes.. I could say so much more but I think you guys and ladys have said all that needs to be said.. MOST HAUNTED GO AWAY AND BLOODY STAY not wanted any still have so many gullible people that hang of there ever wim and think that everything they do or say is truth... ITS REALLY NOT
Okay, the show which kick-started a thousand wannabe Ghost Hunting Teams returns to our screens after a three year absence. Has it changed for the better or the worse? Have they listened to their critics or their fans?? Lets see...
First off, only some of the team have returned, notably Yvette, Karl and Stuart and some newer faces too, absent is a Medium though, which breaks a bit from format. The location was a Theatre in Bacup, and it followed a standard walkabout like MH has done before. Yvette wearing a tie for some strange reason? The so-called activity started almost from the end of the credit roll, with a series on bangs, raps and thuds. These increased to tape rolls moving and blocks of wood being thrown and keys moving... impressive eh? Well unfortunately we then descend into standard MH territory. No cameras to shown these events, Trigger objects not covered with locked off cameras, and instances where it was hard to tell if a crew members or Karl, Yvette and Stuart hadn`t moved or dropped an item off camera. Certainly when they walked down some step and Karl said footsteps were right behind us on the stairs!" has he never walked down some stairs and have them creak behind him as the boards settle? And four people had just come down these steps lets remember. Worse was to come with the Ouija Board session where if came out that a spirit called "Jake" (I hope no relation to our friend at CHAPS!) had followed them and had done this several times before. Now this didn`t exactly enthral me with confidence in their protection powers considering they had a new person there. There also followed several instances between Dan and Karl with some moving ducktape, however since Dan was filming and not keeping the camera on the tape, just Karl most the time, we didn't see it move. Then it "suddenly" appears on the ground by Dan... did he drop it?? We cannot say. The final scenes in the basement with Yvette, Karl and two others in which we are treated to some normal shouty outbursts from Yvette and a raft of so-called paranormal events, however, as the team exits a door there is a loud scream by Yvette as she encounters in the dark.... Stuart!! How long had he been there? what had he been up to?? He wasn't part of the team in the basement....
The summing up was done by some Hippy-like bloke billed as a "sceptic" who seem to have gone to the School of Monotone Delivery, either that or he had got himself spaced out on something. He should give some to Yvette to calm her down before a vigil.
Overall - this is basically the same old Most Haunted as ever. If this is what floats your boat then fine, but its pure entertainment only. For those of us looking for a little bit more I`m afraid MH has missed the boat again. It had a chance to change and it didn't take it. Its hard to endorse a programme which does little to amend its mistakes simply to gain viewing figures. MH followers will find their fix here, but it leaves little for everyone else. Its a tired format and a bit embarrassing for the viewer and all those involved in it. We need something new...
MOST HAUNTED - Second Episode (new series) Really TV.
Reviewed by Colin Smith.
Okay, you know my previous review? I said we were not going to watch this anymore as the first episode was so predictably bad. Well.. Joan and I decided to just watch the second one to be sure we hadn`t made an error and that perhaps something could be salvaged from the tired old MH format.
So, is Episode 2 a return to form???
erm... well, in a way - YES! Its a return to all that was bad with the original MH, and its mainly down to the things we noted in the Episode one review. If fact within the first 10 minutes we are treated to a gratuitous camera ogling of a young woman`s backside!! This when supposedly paranormal events are going on with an object (surprise, surprise!) being thrown out of There is also a suspect shot of Karl retrieving an object thrown off camera shot, with him being the only person close to it - alarm bells started to ring...
But after the break, we are treated to something really spectacular - the return of the Karl & Stu double act!! Whilst the main camera view was predictably on Yvette there was a commotion off to the right in a doorway. We are then treated to a shot of a collapsed Stu on the floor with Karl by his side trying to get a response from him. Also, camera views are shown from Karl`s camera and Stu`s camera which do not really add anything as to why Stu fell over. Stu`s explanation is fainted", which is hardly of a paranormal origin. Apparently Stu said he felt faint earlier, however this footage is shown AFTER the event, not before!
All very suspect...
And, quite what a completely unknown so-called Rock band were doing there as "Special Guests" completely mystified me!
Again , no Medium present - if we are to believe Stu`s fainting act as being paranormal, then where the hell is their protection?????
What good will a Demonologist do either? Why is he
Well, Joan an I gave it up till the second break, but I`m afraid enough is enough.. this tragic programme now insults us rather than entertains us and does not come recommended at all.
Most Haunted... take note. We predict this "comeback" will last only one series. Serious Ghost Hunters have moved on, you have not. And the price you pay is ridicule and obscurity...
When you consider the amount of technology at their hands and only a few cameras in use - I wonder why this is? could it be that if they did wire each room they would not have a show? Any one can stand in a darkened room and say "what was that" whilst staring down the camera - but without video footage how can the audience judge? I think Karl given his one time show stating that he does not believe in paranormal - then dancing around stating how scared he is - but Karl you said you don't believe - so why do you react the way you do???? perhaps if you remove yourself from all investigations and just comment at the end?? The new make up girl has been chosen well - note of caution to her - if she really wants to make up her own mind - she needs to remain at the back when leaving a room with evidence. Probably observing the team will give her the answers as to what is real and what is created for effect. I have never known so many tappings as on Most Haunted - someones knuckles must be very sore by the end of filming. I can see Karl and Yvette are trying a new approach and I am so grateful the screaming banshees are no longer there as they ruined the show - one was forever winging and the other screamed at every creak of the floorboards. So by taking out the distractions you have what the audience could have told you - a banal show - pity you could really do something with this show but you choose to tread the same worn boards.
I have watched Most Haunted for many years and it has always been entertaining and quite funny. I watched the first episode of the new series expecting more of the same and perhaps even an improvement given this new series has been a long time in the making. What a load of old codswallop. Amateurish and downright boring. I must agree with the negative comments given below. No historian and so no historical facts. No Ciaran and so no voice of reason. Just them walking around listening out for a few taps quite obviously made by fellow crew members and screaming at absolutely nothing. Absolutely no point the "demonologist" being there. What did he do? As for them getting all of a dither over those rolls of damn tape supposedly being moved about. You wouldn't believe they'd been doing it for years and years given that it was so dire. If this episode was a taste of things to come then they have shot themselves in the foot. Absolute rubbish.
The first episode was an absolute load of rubbish! No medium, no paranormal investigator, no historian, no new (or even old) technology - NOTHING! As a result there was no information about anything and it was totally amateurish and boring. Even the titles were old ones recycled, because the programme was clearly done on the cheap. To get rid of everyone who made it interesting and replace them with nobody as all is incredibly stupid. Do Yvette and Karl think we will all be watching with delight just because they are back on our screens? That's the impression I got, because there was no substance to the programme at all. Well, darlings, I hate to tell you but I'm not going to tune in just to see you floundering and yelling without anybody there to guide us, inform us or actually make the programme watchable. You have ruined what was once a good programme, whether of not we believe it was real or faked. I used to think that the rumours about Yvette being a diva were nonsense, but with all the sackings, arguments, people walking out etc. I have come to the conclusion that hey are true. They have lost some very good people and replaced them with nobody - is it because now nobody wants to work with them? Well soon nobody will want to watch them either, because if next weeks' show is as bad as the first one, I won't be watching again. Goodbye Yvette and Karl - you have destroyed your own creation!
have watched this series on/off over the years. I've always thought that the first series was a lot better (being they were all new to the that it became theatrical and wonderfully ridiculous. half of it was staged managed and the mediums felt it was mediocre. Yvette's for ever screaming and Karl's always out of shot when somethings moved or someone's the new episode I noticed that the board did not move when Karl left the room and who takes a make up artist on a ghost hunt with time take a priest I truly believe you all need blessing!.
I can't believe that the new episode of most haunted (2014) could be even more rubbish than some of the earlier episodes. It might as well be a radio show because you see nothing except a good view up Carls nose or evettes big black ringed eyes ! I recorded it for a bit of entertainment not serious paranormal findings but it was not entertaining, just screaming, shouting bad camera work and a supposed ghost who loved to play with tape of all shapes, colours and sizes. NO NO NO Most haunted pack up and please dont come back I have deleted the show and shall not be watching it again... at least when Derek was a medium on it we could have a good laugh at his fake take overs ! Rated 1 because there is no -10
I hope the upcoming season in August 2014 is not a repeat of all the screaming and blundering about in the dark of previous shows. If you want to be involved in the making of this kind of program the presenters should not be so easily scared, after all, they are in these locations looking for ghosts. It would be a much more enjoyable show if I didn't have my eardrums assaulted by people of a nervous disposition who seem to think that this is entertainment. It would be much better to be able to see and hear what is actually going on. They need to be more professional . I think if I was a ghost I would be insulted by the constant requests to throw things and knock repeatedly. Can the producers not find any questions to ask during the seances, such as, "What is it like being dead?". I'm sure viewers could think of interesting questions for the show.
i have watched the program with great anticipation... many times and all i get as a viewer is constant close ups of silly presenter faces, i wonder if they actually point the camera elsewhere other than each others close up we the viewer might actually see something, i do understand how important it is for them to show their faces on tv "but come on" at least 90% of each program is their silly faces, all they do is video each other blocking 95% of what is around them.. the familiar phrase " what the hell was that" well we wouldn't know would we... and another phrase " did you hear or see that Brian or whoever " well no because your pointing the camera in my face, is what should be the reply.. i feel the focus of this program is on the silly faces of the presenter and not much else.. how about putting the camera in a stationary position instead and letting it record, instead of letting a frantic presenter holding and shaking it when a noise is heard or something is seen, and all we can see is their blurry faces whilst they are screaming the place down.... when are we the viewer going to see something or hear something.. never i feel as the 3 way conversations over the top of everything and silly faces blocking out everything any noises or views that they say are there..... very boring yawn yawn
i think all the team have been great its not fake paranormal does excist and this show brings it to many peoples attention amazing i hope they carry on makeing shows as i love it i say if you dont belive any of the shows then before judgeing there good work go and stay overnight at the same location yourself before judgeing there experiances
Most haunted was the first paranormal show i seen but was hooked on ghost hunters when it came out, then ghost adventures and now stranded.. started watching deep south paranormal but i dont know if i like it or not and paranormal state was shit house!
I would like to see Most Hounted at Market Bosworth hall To spend a night in the tower were it is closed down because no body of this life will ever go, the blood stain on the wall appears and it does not matter how many times it was painted over, the Grey Lady has been seen walking, And i all so have witnessed Her and i give her respect,. If they survive that; I would like to send them to Building 15 on the Caterpillar works This is a part of the old air field and in this building, electric stops doors open and many people will not enter by them self after dark, Flight air men have been seen walking about waiting for their plains from the 2nd world war These were Lancaster bomber pilats
Too much swearing and squawking to hear what's going on. Totally unprofessional.
Why are they so surprised at the reactions they get from the spirits. Isn't that what they want? Duhh!!
And why so many people on the crew, from admin assistant to make up, and probably anyone who answers the phone. It all adds to the confusion. I think they should take a leaf out of Ghost Adventures book, now there's a professional team that get results!!
Why the need for darkness? Other than increasing the anxiety a hysteria of the situation, which makes it difficult to ascertain whether there is any genuine paranormal activity because of the exaggerated reaction of the participants, I can see no reason for this: the spirits/ghost activity, if present, would not be influenced by light or it's absence. The parapsychologist has commented on the psychological factor involved in these explorations. I think if this was taken seriously, and the psychological expectations, fantasies, anxieties etc, were reduced as much as possible, it would be a much better programme. Unfortunately I think the producer is appealing to the lowest common denominator in an attempt to maintain high ratings - so the hysterical screaming is unlikely to stop any time soon.
I only started watching this out of boredom 3 weeks ago. I have to say "It is all fake"
Pieces of fluff seen in night vision claimed to be 'orbs', slight tapping noises probably caused by temperature changes or Deathwatch beetles, doors moving which is most likely just wind or the movement of floors or the house/property itself.
As for the people themselves, well. Let's take Derek, a bigger 'wide boy' fake couldn't be found, more often wrong as right and when he is 'possessed', well that's a laugh. The fat short blonde woman, I call her 'touchy' for obvious reasons.
I've spent time in dark properties alone and although it may be a bit spooky sometimes I was never running scared and screaming like demented women like the crew on this show does. They are either acting or experiencing mass hysteria, I believe 'acting'.
All in all a total crock of rubbish. I'd LOVE to actually see something fly across the room and damage one of them, then I just might believe a bit of it!
Give it up, you are fooling no one, well the seriously mentally ill maybe.
If it's pitch black an' yer can't see noffink how do yer know if it'as not the persons about you that are making noises an' throwin' things about? You say you trust them but that's not proof that it's not them is it?
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