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Madara vs Pain

Which version of Peace

  • Avatar of No_Hablo_Ingles

    No_Hablo_Ingles

    [1]Nov 8, 2009
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    READ! READ! READ! READ! READ WHAT'S IN BOLD!

    This is not your usual fighting thread. We haven't seen Madara fight, so to state the outcome of a fight with him would make asses out of us all.

    I was wondering this on Friday when I started talking to a friend of mine of Facebook. We were talking about human nature, me saying that Human-beings are born violent then getting morals/ethics inserted into them and him saying to opposite.

    My friend is also a Naruto fan and I asked him what he thought of Madara's moon eye plan. His answer surprised me, "It's peace."

    So I started thinking, what version of Peace is better, Pain or Madara's?

    Pain wanted to kill most of the word, and have the survivors finally realize that violence is never the answer.

    Madara wanted to case Gen-Jutsu on the entire world and basically make life like the matrix.

    Pain's version kills Millions, if not BILLIONS of People, but they are able to make their own decisions.

    Madara's version doesn't kill anyone, but one person will control the minds of the entire world.

    Edited on 11/08/2009 4:37pm
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  • Avatar of LordMordor

    LordMordor

    [2]Nov 8, 2009
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    I felt compelled to vote for the Fruit Salad...but between the two options, i believe Pain's solution would be the closest thing to actual peace. Not to say of course that his way of getting there is correct, because it obviously isn't. But between his and Madara's final goal, Nagato's is the closest to true peace.

    In Madara's 'Moon-eye plan' world...its basically one mind controlling everything. A household with only one occupant can't have any domestic disputes. Likewise, a world with only one conciousness in active control of things can't have have any conflict. But its only because there is literally nothing to fight against. I think of peace as when two or more people/groups can function together harmoniously and avoid/settle conflicts without resorting to violence/threats. Madara's plan negates all of that by only having a single party involved, namely himself.

    Now, in Nagato's ideal final scenario, the world would see the pointlessness and pain caused by war and conflict, and would therefore shy away from such things. maybe even coming together after the destruction is finished through the mutual shared pain of loss. However, he himself acknowledged in his speech to Naruto that this would not last forever. Eventually peoples memories would fade and people would begin squabling again. eventually someone would use his weapon again, thus generating another period of peace.

    During those brief periods, i would call that peace, since people would literally have no desire for conflict and would more than likely come together to help each other during the tragedy. Anyone from the US would remember how much everyone tried to help each other and how unified people became after 9/11. However, this peace would never be permanent, just like 9/11, eventually people just would just move on and revert back to business as usual. Since Nagato's plan would not provide for a permanent peace solution, i would be hesitant to call it the way to TRUE peace

    tl,dr version:
    Madara's plan - not peace because there is only one person with free will
    Nagato's plan - will provide breif period of peace, but not lasting TRUE peace. (note this does not take into account the moral implications of his methods, only the end result)
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  • Avatar of No_Hablo_Ingles

    No_Hablo_Ingles

    [3]Nov 8, 2009
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    But doesn't that mean Madara's version is everlasting, while Pain's version is temporary?
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    LordMordor

    [4]Nov 8, 2009
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    Madara's version would be everlasting....but it can't possibly qualify as peace since there is only one concious mind with any sort of free will.
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  • Avatar of No_Hablo_Ingles

    No_Hablo_Ingles

    [5]Nov 8, 2009
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    LordMordor wrote:
    Madara's version would be everlasting....but it can't possibly qualify as peace since there is only one concious mind with any sort of free will.
    Can someone not be at peace with one's self?
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    bloodiedblade

    [6]Nov 8, 2009
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    actually pain's plan would always involve war not peace because as the 4th hokage stated there would always be someone who would want revenge or a country that would not stand for it. he would literaly have to kill everybody for there to be "peace" as for madara plan it could actually be considered peace because there would be no volence but he would have control of everybody so there would be no free will.
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  • Avatar of No_Hablo_Ingles

    No_Hablo_Ingles

    [7]Nov 8, 2009
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    bloodiedblade wrote:
    actually pain's plan would always involve war not peace because as the 4th hokage stated there would always be someone who would want revenge or a country that would not stand for it. he would literaly have to kill everybody for there to be "peace" as for madara plan it could actually be considered peace because there would be no volence but he would have control of everybody so there would be no free will.

    I understand your point. I don't know if you ever played Advance Wars: Days of Ruin but something similar happened.

    This is the way I see things. If Pain killed 95% of the people on the earth (Lets say there are 6 billion in the Naruto Universe) that leaves what? 300,000,000 left alive? Ninjas seem to be about 10% max of the population, so lets assume that Pain's weapon gave everyone an equal chance of living. That means out of that 300,000,000 only about 30,000,000 are ninja spread across the entire world.

    The weapon Pain was going to use simply wouldn't kill people. It would heavly damage the food supply, homes, etc. The civilians will band together and try to start a new, electing a mayor and whatnot. The ninjas will become nothing but savages, maybe to the extent of taking the little food supply that villagers have...

    Kind of depends on whether you think humans are inherently evil or good....

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  • Avatar of LordMordor

    LordMordor

    [8]Nov 9, 2009
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    most ninja in the naruto world are members of hidden villiages, as such most ninja survivors would more than likely stay and help the civilian population with reconstruction/recovery/defense. It would only be the missing-nin/mercenary groups you would really have to worry about becoming roaming groups of savages.

    I think this really depends on your definition of peace. If you consider peace to be just a state in which there is no conflict, then yes, Madara's plan would lead to true peace. But only because there is no one else on the planet with free will to oppose him. (to answere your question Ingles, yes someone can not be at peace with ones self, but its not the same thing, your not going to go declaring war against yourself are you?)

    With the definition of peace i use, it requires that two or more people with free will make the decision together to avoid conflict and live harmoniously. to me, this means Madara's final goal can't be considered a true peace of any kind.

    Pain's plan in my mind can't be considered true peace because it has no hope of long term sucess, only creating breif pockets of peace spaced by longer periods of business as usual. Thats in his ideal scenario, worst case scenario is he uses the weapon but nothing really changes, villiages still stay separete and still compete and fight with each other.

    I voted Nagato because in my mind its the only one where at least brief moments of peace are attained, if you included Naruto's BS of 'getting people to understand each other' i would have to vote that, just because it would be the only scenario where success would yeild what i believe true peace is
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  • Avatar of No_Hablo_Ingles

    No_Hablo_Ingles

    [9]Nov 9, 2009
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    Orochimaru was a member of a hidden village. Just because you are a member of a village does not mean that you are going to do the best thing for that village, hell look at Danzo. It all comes down to human nature. The survial of the fittest mentality will kick in. "Why should the weak take away food from the strong?" When society dies, the morals/ethics and rules of that society dies with it. It would be up to the survivors to recreate the morals that will be the building block of a better tomorrow. I'm not quite sure if that's possible though... This is of course assuming that Pain's weapon would target both humans and food. If the weapon only kills humans then that conflict wouldn't occurr since the food supply would be much greater then the amount of humans.
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    qtwanderer

    [10]Nov 10, 2009
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    Both ways have a forseeable future..that has been seen @.@

    We know that people forget after awhile and we know peace is not "real" when its not the people making their own decisions and....I lost my train of thought ._.
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    Ranemoraken

    [11]Nov 10, 2009
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    Madara is not a man at peace. Therefore, for him to be in control, would make no peace. By the fact that his concern is firstly "To be complete" means he is not concerned so much with others. It falls in line with a man who commits a great sin to save many lives. This man has made all these people accessories to the sin, even without their choosing. An interesting story - just for the sake of curiosity - would be if Madara were to travel the world, and instead of fighting the jinchuriki, would convince them one by one to sacrifice their lives to his cause. To use diplomacy. Pain's plan took into account that the peace would never last for a great length of time...
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  • Avatar of No_Hablo_Ingles

    No_Hablo_Ingles

    [12]Nov 10, 2009
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    Ranemoraken wrote:
    Madara is not a man at peace. Therefore, for him to be in control, would make no peace. By the fact that his concern is firstly "To be complete" means he is not concerned so much with others. It falls in line with a man who commits a great sin to save many lives. This man has made all these people accessories to the sin, even without their choosing. An interesting story - just for the sake of curiosity - would be if Madara were to travel the world, and instead of fighting the jinchuriki, would convince them one by one to sacrifice their lives to his cause. To use diplomacy. Pain's plan took into account that the peace would never last for a great length of time...

    But doing evil things for the greater good is good right? If a two people (Killer Bee and Naruto) have to be killed in order for the end of all wars and conflicts is it worth it? Why even attempt Diplomacy? And why would it matter? Whether you are using Diplomacy or Force the end result is the same, people have to die, so why even risk them saying no?

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    CarlosAnez

    [13]Dec 2, 2009
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    there simply can't be peace with either Pain or Madara being in control. If i were to choose the one closest to peace it would have to be...the fruit salad, but if it were only madara and pain, I'd say Pain's will get closer to peace because it won't be forever but Madara would have every one stuck into his mind
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    Ranemoraken

    [14]Dec 5, 2009
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    No_Hablo_Ingles wrote:

    Ranemoraken wrote:
    Madara is not a man at peace. Therefore, for him to be in control, would make no peace. By the fact that his concern is firstly "To be complete" means he is not concerned so much with others. It falls in line with a man who commits a great sin to save many lives. This man has made all these people accessories to the sin, even without their choosing. An interesting story - just for the sake of curiosity - would be if Madara were to travel the world, and instead of fighting the jinchuriki, would convince them one by one to sacrifice their lives to his cause. To use diplomacy. Pain's plan took into account that the peace would never last for a great length of time...

    But doing evil things for the greater good is good right? If a two people (Killer Bee and Naruto) have to be killed in order for the end of all wars and conflicts is it worth it? Why even attempt Diplomacy? And why would it matter? Whether you are using Diplomacy or Force the end result is the same, people have to die, so why even risk them saying no?

    It's true that the end result is the same, but the means are different. In the new case, Madara's personality would have to be different.

    The claim that "true peace has to be earned to be meaningful" is a technically loaded. If mankind produces a man who can acheive true peace, then it has earned the right to be entranced by the results of their creation. At least...it can be argued.
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    axe_king

    [15]Jan 2, 2010
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    wow so fruit salad wins huh. yeah i voted for it too.my vote counted ..yeihhh.

    but for the record what is Pokemon peace?

    well it had been stated that neither of them would succeed. pain actually said himself that his version would only last a while before it repeated itself so the creator already failed with it even before he got control of akatsuki. if there are no good morals between countries there can be no piece. I know pain wanted piece but his piece was nothing more than what they already had. wars and short pieces in between wars. and the cycle is about to repeat itself as 4 th ninja war is about to start.

    and besides most people would not agree with pains piece and even if his plan which had major flaws would succeeded it will fall eventually. people would just rebel against his rule and chain of hatred continue. in reality pains dream is nothing more that pipe dreams. I have 4 th hokage as my proof. but the guy was willing to accept it.

    as for madara's piece it just falls so flat only madara is blind to believe it would actually work. I could easily compare his idea to the matrix movie. if you have not seen it. go see it. it's like best movie of the 90's . (in my opinion). people or some really strong willed people would truly brake out of any genjutsu. proof? funny you should ask. there should not been any chance for sasuke to brake out of itachi's tsukuyomi with mare sharingan but he did. there are plenty of ways how to by pass. and some people would. and they would free the rest. just like they did eventually in matrix.

    and once again we would be in civil war and chains of hatred. I guess as long as people behave like they do is not possible.

    if you ask me the most logical choice would be for each country to set up moral codes that it's wrong with wars even if it would fall hypo in the end. it would at least prevent the bad thinking. it's possible but it would take ages. but it would be worth it in the long run. run anti war propaganda. set up good morals for the youngsters. i think if naruto becomes hokage he should start with something like that. he should just drop this whole nakama thing because that is huge source as well why they have chains of hatred. and it has been recently explained how it will lead to war even if it's ridiculous as hell. so this whole nakama thing. they should loosen it up a bit. I would call it growing up. sorry I know it shounen but I still have my reasons to say what I want to say. I mean naruto(the show) does teach the kids the way of life you want it or not. it's propaganda on what one should do and not. it's shows like these that create those unwritten rules we have in our society. I think they do take this nakama thing to far at times. yes friends are important but one should never loose moral codes. since if you do the world will be led by morons and it will all go down to hell. So fruit salad is a good choice even if we might think differently. as long as most people wants fruits salad ("piece") we shall achieve it
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    Theswagger

    [16]Jan 30, 2010
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    I think Pains is much better Madara's is just plain stupid.
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    superfive9

    [17]Feb 1, 2010
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    Well, Pain's plan would kill many people. But being under mind-control can be considered the same as being dead since you no longer think anymore and you would be just a puppet, so if I had to choose, it would be Pain's idea.

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    springBOOB

    [18]Feb 10, 2010
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    Pain's vision is probably the better one. I mean, Madara wants to put everyone under a mass genjutsu, while Pain wants to use threats to keep peace but still maintain the freedom of others.
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    axe_king

    [19]Feb 13, 2010
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    well if madara's peace was a success up to 100% no one would need to get hurt for real. everyone would be in a cozy genjutsu. so in that perspective I would choose madara's piece. I like this discussion
    Edited on 02/13/2010 10:49am
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