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Official Discussion Thread: The Return (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of Gislef

    Gislef

    [1]Apr 20, 2012
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    Please direct all general and specific discussion of the 4/22/12 episode "The Return" to this thread.

    Enjoy!
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    Kitanishi

    [2]Apr 22, 2012
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    Well this episode explained nothing and gave EVEN MORE QUESTIONS.

    - Where's Baelfire. Could he be August's superior? The one August called at the start of episode?

    - Does Blue Fairy remember? Is it possible that she masterminded this whole situation and pretty much manipulated Rumple to this end?

    - Emma, unknown to herself, is pretty much using the same tactics against Regina that Regina has used for decades against Snow White. And that is just for TRYING to take away MM from Emma. Makes you wonder on what Emma will do, how far and how dark will she go, once she finds out the truth about Graham.
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    RebelDavis

    [3]Apr 22, 2012
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    Kitanishi wrote:
    -Where's Baelfire. Could he be August's superior? The one August called at the start of episode?
    August's superior? What makes you think that August is working with or for someone else? I don't think that August is working for someone else. And I'm pretty sure that the person he talked to on the phone was Henry, given that the very next scene after the phone call showed him and Henry "accelerating the plan."


    I feel fairly certain that August is Pinocchio, especially after the new details that were learned in this episode. He came to town looking for his estranged father... Gepetto. Also, in an interview one of the writers or producers said to take note of August's paperweight in his room and that the paperweight was a potential clue. The paperweight was a donkey, which ties into the theory that he is Pinocchio.


    Whether he's Pinocchio or someone else we will know for sure after next week. We've just got to try not to go crazy with not knowing over the next seven days!

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    Dracomom

    [4]Apr 22, 2012
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    I was so angry when August called Mr Gold "Papa"- his eyes are blue and Bae's were brown. I was cursing the continuity folks. And then it turned out he was lying... Oof! I liked the scenes between these two- especially when August confessed why he'd set all this up. I'd still like to know how August got the drawing of the dagger- you may be right about his superior being Bae!


    I disagree that we didn't learn anything. We know that Emma's wising up ("maybe diagonally"- great line!). We know how Rumplestiltskin lost his son and why he hates the fairies (kudos to Robert Carlyle for pulling off so many amazing transitionsin this episode! The terror of losing Bae was evident in the very first scene; the discussion with Emma was fascinating; and the green tunnel scene was absolutely phenomenal! And the confrontation with Regina was the best scene the two of them have had together so far!) It has been directly stated that Rumplestiltskin created the Dark Curse (silencing the doubters) And finally, we know for sure that Rumplestiltskin cannot be commanded by the Dagger while in Storybrooke. (Maybe that last wasn't bothering anyone else, but I was wondering.)


    On the other hand, the writers did pull offtheir usual "answer one question and ask six more" even more frequently than usual this episode.


    I still haven't decided whether Emma never had a sense of when people where lying, or if Regina and Sydney were exerting some charm to get her to overlook certain things- I think that Emma was pretty good at spotting the untruths from other characters. Of course, the other characters weren't really accomplished schemers, either...


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    watcher1006

    [5]Apr 22, 2012
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    Okay, so I guess the DNA evidence was falsified, but where exactly has Kathryn been? Regina was expecting or hoping that Mr. Gold would kill her?

    I loved that hospital scene between Kathryn and David. But where do they go now? Is Kathryn still going to leave? It looks like David's relationship with MM may be on hold for the time being.

    Yes we found out why Mr. Gold hates the fairies but now we know he's on an unfulfilled quest to find his son from fairy tale land, and that he is less than omniscient in the present day world.

    So Operation Cobra is now a threesome with August along with Henry and Emma? At what point did Henry come to trust August so wholeheartedly? His inclusion bothers me.

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  • Avatar of doctorWHO69

    doctorWHO69

    [6]Apr 22, 2012
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    :
    -


    I feel fairly certain that August is Pinocchio, especially after the new details that were learned in this episode. He came to town looking for his estranged father... Gepetto. Also, in an interview one of the writers or producers said to take note of August's paperweight in his room and that the paperweight was a potential clue. The paperweight was a donkey, which ties into the theory that he is Pinocchio.


    Whether he's Pinocchio or someone else we will know for sure after next week. We've just got to try not to go crazy with not knowing over the next seven days!



    I agree,that August could well be Pinocchio. When he was in his bed,his leg started to give him some trouble.At first,i thought it could be related to Mr Golds leg, in that he walks with a limp. But,could he possibly be becoming a puppet once more instead of a 'real boy'? And thats what was happening to his leg.Its becoming made of wood, It seemed to be that way to me. I know thay have stated there is no magic in this world,but Regina appeared to kill Graham with his heart,that she kept in storage. If that isnt some form of magic,i dont know what is.

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    grandpsykick

    [7]Apr 22, 2012
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    A few burning questions:


    1) Where is Rump's son?


    2) Who is August (definitelynot a main member of storybrook because he came from outside the town)?


    3) Why didn't the dagger work (it was a cursed object, other cursed objects like the Skull keys and Grham heart worked!)?


    4) How does August know (typewriterwrapped in a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in stubble)... ?

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  • Avatar of Kitanishi

    Kitanishi

    [8]Apr 23, 2012
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    doctorWHO69 wrote:


    :
    -


    I feel fairly certain that August is Pinocchio, especially after the new details that were learned in this episode. He came to town looking for his estranged father... Gepetto. Also, in an interview one of the writers or producers said to take note of August's paperweight in his room and that the paperweight was a potential clue. The paperweight was a donkey, which ties into the theory that he is Pinocchio.


    Whether he's Pinocchio or someone else we will know for sure after next week. We've just got to try not to go crazy with not knowing over the next seven days!



    I agree,that August could well be Pinocchio. When he was in his bed,his leg started to give him some trouble.At first,i thought it could be related to Mr Golds leg, in that he walks with a limp. But,could he possibly be becoming a puppet once more instead of a 'real boy'? And thats what was happening to his leg.Its becoming made of wood, It seemed to be that way to me. I know thay have stated there is no magic in this world,but Regina appeared to kill Graham with his heart,that she kept in storage. If that isnt some form of magic,i dont know what is.



    YEah> I have this sneaking suspicion August dies or turns into simple doll in next ep, freaking out Emma that way.

    There's no NEW magic. There's old magic and old consequences. Rumple still has some sort of foresight and his deals, he still has the consequences of the deals he made, etc. Heart vault falls into the same category. They just can't CREATE magic. Knife in itself is not magical. Its just a tool to conjure. And there's nothing to conjure.
    watcher1006 wrote:

    Yes we found out why Mr. Gold hates the fairies but now we know he's on an unfulfilled quest to find his son from fairy tale land, and that he is less than omniscient in the present day world.


    I am thinking its more like he, as rumple or as gold, can't foresee his OWN future. he does not know about Belle afterall. Thus most likely his OWN future is clouded. He can't "foresee" Belle or Baelfire. And while he could "feel" who August is, emotions were clouding his judgement.

    Dracomom wrote:

    I disagree that we didn't learn anything. We know that Emma's wising up ("maybe diagonally"- great line!). We know how Rumplestiltskin lost his son and why he hates the fairies (kudos to Robert Carlyle for pulling off so many amazing transitionsin this episode! The terror of losing Bae was evident in the very first scene; the discussion with Emma was fascinating; and the green tunnel scene was absolutely phenomenal! And the confrontation with Regina was the best scene the two of them have had together so far!) It has been directly stated that Rumplestiltskin created the Dark Curse (silencing the doubters) And finally, we know for sure that Rumplestiltskin cannot be commanded by the Dagger while in Storybrooke. (Maybe that last wasn't bothering anyone else, but I was wondering.)


    On the other hand, the writers did pull offtheir usual "answer one question and ask six more" even more frequently than usual this episode.




    Thats exactly WHY I am saying we learned nothing.

    If we started with 0 knowledge.

    Then we got +8 knowledge
    And then -20 knowledge. Leaving us with less than zero clue on what the hell.

    Why does gold want to break the curse?
    What happens when it breaks, since, just like with Regina's deal here, he never even once said anything about everything returning to normal, nor he mention ANYTHING that happens after it breaks, to both Regina and Snow. And he is working towards it. Why?

    Was Blue Fairy manipulating it all and does she remember in present times?

    etc, etc, etc.

    :

    I still haven't decided whether Emma never had a sense of when people where lying, or if Regina and Sydney were exerting some charm to get her to overlook certain things- I think that Emma was pretty good at spotting the untruths from other characters. Of course, the other characters weren't really accomplished schemers, either...



    Anger. Emma is clearly paralleled to Regina. Since the whole Genie/Sydney blunder she has been pretty much blindly seeking out a way to "get back": at Regina, get even, get vengeance. Her MO is VERY similar to how Regina acts and how Regina acted towards Snow for decades. Emma was blinded by her hatred and desperation and once MM was not in danger, she was able to regain her composure enough and it all started working.
    RebelDavis wrote:

    Kitanishi wrote:
    -Where's Baelfire. Could he be August's superior? The one August called at the start of episode?
    August's superior? What makes you think that August is working with or for someone else? I don't think that August is working for someone else. And I'm pretty sure that the person he talked to on the phone was Henry, given that the very next scene after the phone call showed him and Henry "accelerating the plan."


    I feel fairly certain that August is Pinocchio, especially after the new details that were learned in this episode. He came to town looking for his estranged father... Gepetto. Also, in an interview one of the writers or producers said to take note of August's paperweight in his room and that the paperweight was a potential clue. The paperweight was a donkey, which ties into the theory that he is Pinocchio.


    Whether he's Pinocchio or someone else we will know for sure after next week. We've just got to try not to go crazy with not knowing over the next seven days!



    August came into town at the exactly correct moment, had an extensive knowledge of stuff, INCLUDING how to add pages to the book and WHAT pages add and PAGES to add.

    Add to that he called someone this episode and I doubt it was Henry since he talked as if to adult.

    Then we have the fact that he tried to manipulate Gold with the knife to an unknown ends.
    Edited on 04/23/2012 1:21am
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    scyfymum2

    [9]Apr 23, 2012
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    Is anyone wondering just what rumple actually meant when he told regina to really think about why he "betrayed" her by not killing Kathryn. She looked a bit surprised I guess you could say. When or how is she going to reveal she has Belle or does rumple know so wants to manipulate so she will give in and tell. All speculation... I like the idea that August is Pinnochio but time will tell. All I can say is it will be a hum dinger of a season finale I am sure.



    1. Where is the mad hatter?


    w. WIll Belle be revealed this season?


    3. Why can Emma only tell some of the time when someone is lying?


    4. Does Regina hold more over Sidney than just knowing he is devoted to her?


    All will be revealed next week... Well eventually I guess. Forgive my wishful thinking.

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    RavenFreak120

    [10]Apr 23, 2012
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    My biggest fear (which will probably happen) is that none of these questions will be answered this season, the season finale will be one hell of a cliffhanger, and then we'll all have to wait through the summer to the see the outcome of these questions and more of this wonderful, wonderful show!!
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    SpartXen

    [11]Apr 23, 2012
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    scyfymum2 wrote:

    Is anyone wondering just what rumple actually meant when he told regina to really think about why he "betrayed" her by not killing Kathryn. She looked a bit surprised I guess you could say. When or how is she going to reveal she has Belle or does rumple know so wants to manipulate so she will give in and tell. All speculation... I like the idea that August is Pinnochio but time will tell. All I can say is it will be a hum dinger of a season finale I am sure.



    1. Where is the mad hatter?


    w. WIll Belle be revealed this season?


    3. Why can Emma only tell some of the time when someone is lying?


    4. Does Regina hold more over Sidney than just knowing he is devoted to her?


    All will be revealed next week... Well eventually I guess. Forgive my wishful thinking.



    -The Mad Hatter is coming back in the second to last episode
    -She is on the cast list for the finale (and maybe the episode before, I can't remember now, but she's definitely in one/both of the last two episodes)
    -I'm thinking there's more to Emma's 'superpower' and hopefully we'll find out more about it once she accepts the fairytale.
    -Sydney doesn't even know what she has over him. He's in love with her - he fell in love with her in the episode about how he became the mirror. In Storybrooke he doesn't remember her betrayal (although that didn't make him stop loving her in FTL, so it probably doesn't matter either way) so he's willing to do anything to please her because his feelings for her are so strong. Something about the curse maybe magnifies his feelings.
    For the preview it looks the 'Regina tied to the apple tree' scene is in this one! I thought it was in 21, but there's a glimpse of Emma grabbing the sword in the promo. I really hope we get to see this, I HAVE to know what that's about!!
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  • Avatar of Kitanishi

    Kitanishi

    [12]Apr 23, 2012
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    scyfymum2 wrote:

    Is anyone wondering just what rumple actually meant when he told regina to really think about why he "betrayed" her by not killing Kathryn. She looked a bit surprised I guess you could say. When or how is she going to reveal she has Belle or does rumple know so wants to manipulate so she will give in and tell. All speculation... I like the idea that August is Pinnochio but time will tell. All I can say is it will be a hum dinger of a season finale I am sure.



    1. Where is the mad hatter?


    w. WIll Belle be revealed this season?


    3. Why can Emma only tell some of the time when someone is lying?


    4. Does Regina hold more over Sidney than just knowing he is devoted to her?


    All will be revealed next week... Well eventually I guess. Forgive my wishful thinking.



    Its not about that.

    Its Gold calling out Regina on her having ASSUMED he was helping her by creating the curse, while he actually was USING her for whatever goal he wants. thats what dawned upon Regina.

    Curse was never about her. It was something Gold simply wanted to happen and that he(which regina does not know yet) also somehow wants to break for some reason.

    1. Sebastian Stan is listed for two more episodes this season.
    2. Belle is listed for one more episode.
    3. Most likely emotions were clouding her judgment AND for her power to work SHE HAS TO BELIEVE IN IT, just like anything of her "magic" is only made possible by her believing in it.
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    SpartXen

    [13]Apr 23, 2012
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    Kitanishi wrote:
    3. Most likely emotions were clouding her judgment AND for her power to work SHE HAS TO BELIEVE IN IT, just like anything of her "magic" is only made possible by her believing in it.


    Totally agree with you. I've been thinking about this since Emma had that conversation with August about her 'superpower'. She called it 'killer instincts' or something like that. She doesn't believe in magic or the curse, so obviously she doesn't ACTUALLY believe that her 'killer instincts' are a superpower, she just calls it that because they're always right. And maybe when she was talking to Sydney, she sensed he was lying but she ignored her instincts because she didn't have any hard evidence to prove he was untrustworthy, and she needs evidence. Now she's kicking herself for not trusting her instincts. Like I said, I think there's more to this than we know right now, and hopefully it'll be explained better at some point in the future.
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    ZannahHart

    [14]Apr 23, 2012
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    This show blew my mind!


    so I vloged about it!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0CzuxbQgo0

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    Dracomom

    [15]Apr 23, 2012
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    Most likely correct that Rumplestiltskin cannot directly foresee his own future- annoying, eh? But he might have consulted an oracle of some sort, or paid someone else to prophesy, or cast a spell.


    Belief has always been a major component of magic; so that's probably key. Also emotions clouding one's power- anger, fear, maybe even wishful thinking. But is it coincidence that Emma has gotten back more common sense since she drank from the Well? (We know the Book was a plant, but she doesn't)


    It has occurred to me that if the Well is actually magic, that the 2 realities are overlaid one on top of the other. Could that be why Regina doesn't want anyone digging around the old mine- that maybe they could break the buried magic loose? Regina's got her apple tree, which relates to her power in FTL- maybe others could utilise their powers once they remember they're supposed to have them, if they can find the proper objects?


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    angeleys151

    [16]Apr 24, 2012
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    Dracomom wrote:

    It has occurred to me that if the Well is actually magic, that the 2 realities are overlaid one on top of the other. Could that be why Regina doesn't want anyone digging around the old mine- that maybe they could break the buried magic loose? Regina's got her apple tree, which relates to her power in FTL- maybe others could utilise their powers once they remember they're supposed to have them, if they can find the proper objects?



    We know Snow's glass coffin is burried in the mine so it's entirely possible that there's mor burried down there. I can't com up with a better idea of how to break the curse so maybe that's what they have to do: dig up the mine.
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    watcher1006

    [17]Apr 24, 2012
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    angeleys151 wrote:
    Dracomom wrote:


    It has occurred to me that if the Well is actually magic, that the 2 realities are overlaid one on top of the other. Could that be why Regina doesn't want anyone digging around the old mine- that maybe they could break the buried magic loose? Regina's got her apple tree, which relates to her power in FTL- maybe others could utilise their powers once they remember they're supposed to have them, if they can find the proper objects?



    We know Snow's glass coffin is burried in the mine so it's entirely possible that there's mor burried down there. I can't com up with a better idea of how to break the curse so maybe that's what they have to do: dig up the mine.
    Indeed, it's never been clear to what degree magic is disabled in present-day Storybrooke. Remember the vault of hearts? Regina extinguished Graham's life when she removed his heart and killed it, in whatever way it was still connected to him.

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    Kitanishi

    [18]Apr 24, 2012
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    watcher1006 wrote:

    angeleys151 wrote:
    Dracomom wrote:


    It has occurred to me that if the Well is actually magic, that the 2 realities are overlaid one on top of the other. Could that be why Regina doesn't want anyone digging around the old mine- that maybe they could break the buried magic loose? Regina's got her apple tree, which relates to her power in FTL- maybe others could utilise their powers once they remember they're supposed to have them, if they can find the proper objects?



    We know Snow's glass coffin is burried in the mine so it's entirely possible that there's mor burried down there. I can't com up with a better idea of how to break the curse so maybe that's what they have to do: dig up the mine.
    Indeed, it's never been clear to what degree magic is disabled in present-day Storybrooke. Remember the vault of hearts? Regina extinguished Graham's life when she removed his heart and killed it, in whatever way it was still connected to him.



    Its most likely that the things that are MAGICAL remain so, but there's no new magic to be created. Gold has a magical link to his deals and foreseeing stuff, thus he retains that. Regina has heart vault linked to people thus it remains that way. however no NEW magic can be created. Nothing conjured. Nothing cast. Thus August, if August is Pinocchio, is ALSO living on those remnants of magic that make him "real boy" and it is running out, hence him "dying".
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    Dracomom

    [19]Apr 24, 2012
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    Old magics must persist- that's why The Curse is effective!- but I wonder. There are obvious points of congruence between FTL and Storybrooke, like the Well (and maybe the Tree) being connected to Lake Nostos (I still think it should be "Gnostos", meaning knowledge! but that's just my ears, I guess) I'm thinking that Well is the same one where Cinderella's Thomas disappeared- taken by the Siren as a favor to Rumplestiltskin?


    It doesn't seem unreasonable that Rumplestiltskin created the Curse to take him to wherever Bae went, but didn't love anyone enough that using their heart would work. (Interesting twist on his relationship with Belle- making her leave so he wasn't tempted to try it?)

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    Sugar2U

    [20]Apr 24, 2012
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    Ithink August is really going to be Pinnochio.. I also think that Bae may have come to earth but to a different time period. Possibly HE is a GRIMM. I wonder if anyone leaves Storeybrook is when they will start to age. IF they leave then they age to what they should be EXCEPT Henry is ageing.. but then again he was born outside of Storeybrook and never been to the other lands. ... Anyways a really really good show...

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