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Debate Thread - anything and everything: Topic: Shoulda Coulda Woulda

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    Chick94

    [21]May 2, 2008
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    luv2live wrote:
    I think he kept the ring because it was the one that Keith used to propose to his mom, not because he used it to propose to Peyton.

    I really really believe Peyton lied to Lindsey about the ring. Prior to that scene, there hasnt been even ONE mention or clue that tells us that ring belongs to Karen but we have been given every reason to believe its not:

    1. Lucas going to LA in 505 was a spur of the moment kind of thing, so unless he had the ring with him in the basketball game, it couldnt have been Karen's, he was on the bus and he told Whitey to drive him to the airport.

    2. His proposal speech said that that winning championship was great but he realized that it didnt mean anything unless she was there with him further indicating that he made the decision to propose to her AFTER winning the game.

    3. Brooke saw Karen's ring close up in S3 on Karen's hand (bought it right up to her face, freaked out about it etc), but when she saw it in 505, she acted as though she never saw it before, even saying that she wants to look at it to study it and give her honest opinion on the ring---why would she do this unless it was new?

    4. Brooke asked if he even bought a ring for the proposal and he showed her the ring, which in simplest terms meant he DID buy a ring.

    5. If it WAS Karen's, why didnt Lucas tell Lindsey it was? When guys propose with their mom's/grandmother's/etc's ring, they SAY it to show how important it is and the history it carries. So why did Lucas leave this out?

    Following what was said in that sentence, we know Peyton lied about the proposal, he DID propose to her but she said he didnt to pacify Lindsey, so its logical (imo) to think she would lie about the ring too to make Lindsey "stop doubting it".

    luv2live wrote:

    If I was Peyton, I still don't know how I'd feel about it all. He was still willing to do forever with someone else, no matter how convinced she is he loves her. That would still weigh on my mind.

    Divorcees sometimes remarry, so its not impossible to think that some people wouldnt not feel right about being with someone who wanted to spend the rest of their lives with someone else once. Plus as I pointed out in the LP thread, Keith almost married Jules but we fully believe that he loved Karen, and she didnt doubt it herself when she returned his love. Dan married Deb but in S4 when DK were getting close, she didnt hold it against him and its very evident that Karen is the only women Dan ever really loved selflessly. Outside of OTH, Ross married countless times but he knew that when he got together with Rachel she was going to be it, she didnt doubt his love and devotion and neither did the audience.

    And of course, the most important fact to consider here is that Peyton has NO right holding this against Lucas, why? Because she proposed and was going to marry Jake in S3 and it would have happened if Jake didnt back out, just like Lucas' marriage would have happened if Lindsey didnt back out. Both times, it was because they knew Lucas' and Peyton's heart belonged to someone else.

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    luv2live

    [22]May 2, 2008
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    PLforever wrote:
    luv2live wrote:
    Chick94 wrote:

    ^^lol are you in a play?

    Lucas said "I do" while his conscious was yelling out that Lindsey is not the one, Peyton is. Hence the picture, fact that he was inspired to write after she told him his art mattered, the fact that he got jealous with Bar Guy and Chase, he had kissed her, kept the ring he used to propose to her and looked at it from time to time, has dreams about her where she's showing a lot of skin (which psychologically says he finds her physically attractive), never answer a direct question about if he is in love wtih Peyton, etc all state that Peyton certainly IS the first choice and LINDSEY is the second.

    Now, of course, Peyton doesnt know all this so why does she hold out hope? Simple, she loves him and no matter what her brains tells her about it being over between her and Lucas, her heart will always be waiting for him to, by some chance, return to her. I know this because its like with me and this fictional couple I loved, I KNEW they werent going to be endgame but after all the solid anvil-sized hints that went against the couple of my interest, my heart kept hoping until that last chapter. And its the same thing with some Brucas fans, they know LP are most likely endgame, there are no romantic hints towards BL but they keep hoping and they will until that last scene of OTH. The heart holds no logic and so it holds bizarre dreams and hopes that is laughable to the brain's logic.



    I think he kept the ring because it was the one that Keith used to propose to his mom, not because he used it to propose to Peyton. Random question: did she ever look at it, or was the first person to wear/see it Brooke?
    If I was Peyton, I still don't know how I'd feel about it all. He was still willing to do forever with someone else, no matter how convinced she is he loves her. That would still weigh on my mind.


    Peyton has never seen the ring. She wanted to wait until they were acutally ready but someday lead to Lindsey. lol Everyone at some point are willing to spend forever with someone else, especially after being so heart broken by there TRUE LOVE. I feel that lucas is being an ass but in a sense he is protecting himself. who was to know that peyton was ever coming back? and on top of that as many stated, he's afraid to realize his feelings for her because once he do, he'll have to admit not only to himself, but also to peyton. And in his openion, that is way to risky and scary. So why not settle for someone who you assume will never leave you, like lindsey. Never the lesss, i would never consider peyton second to anyone. She always had his heart regardless of how many serious relationsihp lucas has had in the past.


    So she wants someone who doesn't know what he wants, and is so afraid to admit what he really feels he'd rather marry and spend the rest of their life with someone else? Sounds like the type of guy I want. Peyton might of had his heart, but Lindsey was going to have him in her life everyday; have him telling her he loves her every day. She was going to have forever with him. Peyton was going to have her memories.
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  • Avatar of luv2live

    luv2live

    [23]May 3, 2008
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    Chick94 wrote:

    luv2live wrote:
    I think he kept the ring because it was the one that Keith used to propose to his mom, not because he used it to propose to Peyton.

    I really really believe Peyton lied to Lindsey about the ring. Prior to that scene, there hasnt been even ONE mention or clue that tells us that ring belongs to Karen but we have been given every reason to believe its not:

    1. Lucas going to LA in 505 was a spur of the moment kind of thing, so unless he had the ring with him in the basketball game, it couldnt have been Karen's, he was on the bus and he told Whitey to drive him to the airport.

    2. His proposal speech said that that winning championship was great but he realized that it didnt mean anything unless she was there with him further indicating that he made the decision to propose to her AFTER winning the game.

    3. Brooke saw Karen's ring close up in S3 on Karen's hand (bought it right up to her face, freaked out about it etc), but when she saw it in 505, she acted as though she never saw it before, even saying that she wants to look at it to study it and give her honest opinion on the ring---why would she do this unless it was new?

    4. Brooke asked if he even bought a ring for the proposal and he showed her the ring, which in simplest terms meant he DID buy a ring.

    5. If it WAS Karen's, why didnt Lucas tell Lindsey it was? When guys propose with their mom's/grandmother's/etc's ring, they SAY it to show how important it is and the history it carries. So why did Lucas leave this out?

    Following what was said in that sentence, we know Peyton lied about the proposal, he DID propose to her but she said he didnt to pacify Lindsey, so its logical (imo) to think she would lie about the ring too to make Lindsey "stop doubting it".

    luv2live wrote:

    If I was Peyton, I still don't know how I'd feel about it all. He was still willing to do forever with someone else, no matter how convinced she is he loves her. That would still weigh on my mind.

    Divorcees sometimes remarry, so its not impossible to think that some people wouldnt not feel right about being with someone who wanted to spend the rest of their lives with someone else once. Plus as I pointed out in the LP thread, Keith almost married Jules but we fully believe that he loved Karen, and she didnt doubt it herself when she returned his love. Dan married Deb but in S4 when DK were getting close, she didnt hold it against him and its very evident that Karen is the only women Dan ever really loved selflessly. Outside of OTH, Ross married countless times but he knew that when he got together with Rachel she was going to be it, she didnt doubt his love and devotion and neither did the audience.

    And of course, the most important fact to consider here is that Peyton has NO right holding this against Lucas, why? Because she proposed and was going to marry Jake in S3 and it would have happened if Jake didnt back out, just like Lucas' marriage would have happened if Lindsey didnt back out. Both times, it was because they knew Lucas' and Peyton's heart belonged to someone else.

    I'll be honest, I can't argue many of those points regarding the ring; they are valid. Part of the reason is I'm dead tired and my brain isn't functuning at top speed. All I can say is if Peyton is trying to fix things why lie. Lying is not the best route to go, because if Lindsey was to find out differently that would blow up in their face. Secondly, I can't see Lucas being that insensitive to Lindsey the same ring he used with Peyton unless it had some sentimental value. He's not that insensitive or dense.

    Yes, Divorcess remarry; its true. They usually go into their first marriage believing the person they marry is the one they are planning to spend forever with; not planning for the other. I'm not saying you can't love two different people, I'm just saying if your the one they are going to marry after something like this happened or if your going to get into a relationship with someone right after this has happened and be hesitant and worried.

    Dan says Karen is his one true love, but they were never able to have a functioning relationship. Keith did love Karen, but how long after the Jules fiasco did they become engaged? It took a while. As for Ross and Rachel; the show ended so we are left assuming that they stayed together, we don't know for sure. They also got together after how many years after Ross's last failed marriage.

    Jake and Peyton was something Peyton did on the spur of the moment, and didn't truly love and want to marry him. She did it because she was running from her life back in OTH.

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    PLforever

    [24]May 3, 2008
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    luv2live wrote:
    PLforever wrote:
    luv2live wrote:
    Chick94 wrote:

    ^^lol are you in a play?

    Lucas said "I do" while his conscious was yelling out that Lindsey is not the one, Peyton is. Hence the picture, fact that he was inspired to write after she told him his art mattered, the fact that he got jealous with Bar Guy and Chase, he had kissed her, kept the ring he used to propose to her and looked at it from time to time, has dreams about her where she's showing a lot of skin (which psychologically says he finds her physically attractive), never answer a direct question about if he is in love wtih Peyton, etc all state that Peyton certainly IS the first choice and LINDSEY is the second.

    Now, of course, Peyton doesnt know all this so why does she hold out hope? Simple, she loves him and no matter what her brains tells her about it being over between her and Lucas, her heart will always be waiting for him to, by some chance, return to her. I know this because its like with me and this fictional couple I loved, I KNEW they werent going to be endgame but after all the solid anvil-sized hints that went against the couple of my interest, my heart kept hoping until that last chapter. And its the same thing with some Brucas fans, they know LP are most likely endgame, there are no romantic hints towards BL but they keep hoping and they will until that last scene of OTH. The heart holds no logic and so it holds bizarre dreams and hopes that is laughable to the brain's logic.



    I think he kept the ring because it was the one that Keith used to propose to his mom, not because he used it to propose to Peyton. Random question: did she ever look at it, or was the first person to wear/see it Brooke?
    If I was Peyton, I still don't know how I'd feel about it all. He was still willing to do forever with someone else, no matter how convinced she is he loves her. That would still weigh on my mind.


    Peyton has never seen the ring. She wanted to wait until they were acutally ready but someday lead to Lindsey. lol Everyone at some point are willing to spend forever with someone else, especially after being so heart broken by there TRUE LOVE. I feel that lucas is being an ass but in a sense he is protecting himself. who was to know that peyton was ever coming back? and on top of that as many stated, he's afraid to realize his feelings for her because once he do, he'll have to admit not only to himself, but also to peyton. And in his openion, that is way to risky and scary. So why not settle for someone who you assume will never leave you, like lindsey. Never the lesss, i would never consider peyton second to anyone. She always had his heart regardless of how many serious relationsihp lucas has had in the past.


    So she wants someone who doesn't know what he wants, and is so afraid to admit what he really feels he'd rather marry and spend the rest of their life with someone else? Sounds like the type of guy I want. Peyton might of had his heart, but Lindsey was going to have him in her life everyday; have him telling her he loves her every day. She was going to have forever with him. Peyton was going to have her memories.


    Even if lucas said yes and intended to spend forever with lindsey whose to say he wouldnt have regreted and divorce her? people are conflicted with there feelings everyday and us knowing lucas, hes always torn with doing the right thing and following his heart. Peyton in his openion,hurt him really bad. Lindsey was there to catch him when he fell.well and, if you put it that way then, i rather She share memories with lucas and knowing he loved her full hearted then marry someone like lindsey and can say forever and never mean it. what is the point of being reminded about forever everyday if you know deep down in his heart he never really meant it?

    Just like lindsey said, "she could of said yes." but her knowing lucas and how he really feels she couldnt. so i guess for her being remind of forever everyday, was a lie and she knew it. so i guess sometimes forever aint enough.
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    luv2live

    [25]May 3, 2008
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    Yes, Lindsey was the one to end it; she was the one to say no, when she could have said yes. So we have Lindsey realizing what Lucas feels or what she believes he feels. We still don't have Lucas realizing or willing accepting what he feels. Still hiding from his emotions; willing to hide from his emotions by marrying another. Still someone I wouldn't want to marry or get into a relationship with. He could get with Peyton, and they could be happy together but maybe he's still got left over feelings for someone else and in a year those pop up. Your dealing with someone who hides their emotions. A couple that run at the first sign of trouble. Peyton said she needed time all those years ago when Lucas proposed. He left. Neither of them fought for that relationship they just let it go. Peyton saw Lindsey and Lucas hug and thought Lucas had moved on. Why didn't she try and fight for him then; why didn't she try to "break" up the relationship then. She (arguably) did when Brooke and Lucas were dating and that was her best friend. Why not do it to a total stranger.
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    shae83dtr

    [26]May 3, 2008
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    good point
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    Chick94

    [27]May 3, 2008
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    luv2live wrote:

    I'll be honest, I can't argue many of those points regarding the ring; they are valid. Part of the reason is I'm dead tired and my brain isn't functuning at top speed. All I can say is if Peyton is trying to fix things why lie. Lying is not the best route to go, because if Lindsey was to find out differently that would blow up in their face. Secondly, I can't see Lucas being that insensitive to Lindsey the same ring he used with Peyton unless it had some sentimental value. He's not that insensitive or dense.

    Sure lying isnt smart, but this show is not that big on logic but if Peyton lied about the proposal in 505, it wouldnt be absurd to think she lied about the ring.

    Lucas didnt purposely use the ring, you have to remember that Lindsey found it, so if that ring was Peyton's and only Peyton's then he'd have to tell Lindsey and being that she was on the verge of leaving him, I doubt he'd tell the truth. Lindsey thought he was going to purpose to her with that ring but was hesitating and so Lucas purposed, if Lucas intentionally purposed (meaning if Lindsey didnt find the ring) that'd be another thing but that wasnt the case. I really wished they cleared up this thing but with the points I made before, I'll continue to believe that the ring was just Peyton's not Karen's until the show says otherwise since its the only logical reason.

    luv2live wrote:

    Yes, Divorcess remarry; its true. They usually go into their first marriage believing the person they marry is the one they are planning to spend forever with; not planning for the other. I'm not saying you can't love two different people, I'm just saying if your the one they are going to marry after something like this happened or if your going to get into a relationship with someone right after this has happened and be hesitant and worried.

    I really think it depends on the kind of person you are, because I dont see it as such a big deal, something you have to get over sure but not something that should or would prevent you from being with you person you truly love---or at least thats what I think.

    luv2live wrote:

    Dan says Karen is his one true love, but they were never able to have a functioning relationship. Keith did love Karen, but how long after the Jules fiasco did they become engaged? It took a while. As for Ross and Rachel; the show ended so we are left assuming that they stayed together, we don't know for sure. They also got together after how many years after Ross's last failed marriage.

    We only saw DK as two different people leading two separate lives, we never saw them together as a couple unless you count S4 which they were really good together (imo), if it wasnt for the Keith thing, they would have ended up together. My reason for bringing them up is because the show clearly stated that Karen is Dan's true love, and seeing as how quickly she was able to take him back after all those years for that short time in S4, telling Lucas she never got over it...makes me think Dan is Karen's true love as well.

    It took awhile but they DID get together, right? Karen didnt hold Keith's almost marriage to Jules as a sign that he may not love her enough if he was willing to do "forever" with Jules. And of course a large part of the reason why KK took so long was because Keith was mad at Karen for not telling him about Jules. It wasnt the actual almost marriage, itself, that delayed them.

    Ross and Rachel dont need a wedding to prove that they'd be up together, they fact that they were never able to get over each other states that and while its hard to prove, I can bet anything that if you asked the writer if Ross and Rachel ended up married and being together until old age, the answer would be yes.

    luv2live wrote:

    Jake and Peyton was something Peyton did on the spur of the moment, and didn't truly love and want to marry him. She did it because she was running from her life back in OTH.

    Yeah but she WOULD have married him anyway if Jake didnt force her to confront her feelings. Just because it ended early and we didnt see an almost-JP wedding doesnt mean it cant be held accountable.

    I'm not reading this over since I'm stretched for time so sorry for any mistakes in grammar and whatever that doesnt make sense.

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    PLforever

    [28]May 3, 2008
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    luv2live wrote:
    Yes, Lindsey was the one to end it; she was the one to say no, when she could have said yes. So we have Lindsey realizing what Lucas feels or what she believes he feels. We still don't have Lucas realizing or willing accepting what he feels. Still hiding from his emotions; willing to hide from his emotions by marrying another. Still someone I wouldn't want to marry or get into a relationship with. He could get with Peyton, and they could be happy together but maybe he's still got left over feelings for someone else and in a year those pop up. Your dealing with someone who hides their emotions. A couple that run at the first sign of trouble. Peyton said she needed time all those years ago when Lucas proposed. He left. Neither of them fought for that relationship they just let it go. Peyton saw Lindsey and Lucas hug and thought Lucas had moved on. Why didn't she try and fight for him then; why didn't she try to "break" up the relationship then. She (arguably) did when Brooke and Lucas were dating and that was her best friend. Why not do it to a total stranger.


    I agree with you when you say "why didnt they fight harder" but other than that i dont really understand your point. What your saying for peyton to do is become a homewrecker. Why would she want to "break" lucas and lindsey up if lucas is telling her lindsey is what makes him happy. She is so naive to still be in love with her first love? i dont think so. I also feel shes matured and although she is hurting, she strong, and mature enough to let him go and be happy with someone else. Everything you have mentioned about lucas is him. its his flaw and what makes him him. he hide with brooke and peyton still wanted him so i dont know what makes lindsey any different. YOU MAY NOT WANT HIM BUT PEYTON DOES and apart of her always will.. I dont udnerstand what you mean by peyton breaking up brooke and lucas. i never watched peyton intentionally break anyone up.
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    luv2live

    [29]May 4, 2008
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    PLforever wrote:
    luv2live wrote:
    Yes, Lindsey was the one to end it; she was the one to say no, when she could have said yes. So we have Lindsey realizing what Lucas feels or what she believes he feels. We still don't have Lucas realizing or willing accepting what he feels. Still hiding from his emotions; willing to hide from his emotions by marrying another. Still someone I wouldn't want to marry or get into a relationship with. He could get with Peyton, and they could be happy together but maybe he's still got left over feelings for someone else and in a year those pop up. Your dealing with someone who hides their emotions. A couple that run at the first sign of trouble. Peyton said she needed time all those years ago when Lucas proposed. He left. Neither of them fought for that relationship they just let it go. Peyton saw Lindsey and Lucas hug and thought Lucas had moved on. Why didn't she try and fight for him then; why didn't she try to "break" up the relationship then. She (arguably) did when Brooke and Lucas were dating and that was her best friend. Why not do it to a total stranger.
    I agree with you when you say "why didnt they fight harder" but other than that i dont really understand your point. What your saying for peyton to do is become a homewrecker. Why would she want to "break" lucas and lindsey up if lucas is telling her lindsey is what makes him happy. She is so naive to still be in love with her first love? i dont think so. I also feel shes matured and although she is hurting, she strong, and mature enough to let him go and be happy with someone else. Everything you have mentioned about lucas is him. its his flaw and what makes him him. he hide with brooke and peyton still wanted him so i dont know what makes lindsey any different. YOU MAY NOT WANT HIM BUT PEYTON DOES and apart of her always will.. I dont udnerstand what you mean by peyton breaking up brooke and lucas. i never watched peyton intentionally break anyone up.

    I'm saying if Peyton loved him as much as she claimed to she should have fought for him. If Lucas loved her so much he should have fought for her. Brooke already told him years ago he needs to fight for what you want; love doesn't come easy, you sometimes have to fight for it.

    Peyton has said she wants Lucas to be happy but her actions haven't exactly backed that up. If she wants him to be happy why be as mean to Lindsey as she has. Accept that she is the one that makes Lucas happy. She hasn't done that; instead she believes that she is the one that makes Lucas happy and hasn't hid the fact that she still has feelings for him. That isn't doing what he believes will make himself happy but rather doing what she believes will make him happy.

    As for the homewrecker comment, meh, she didn't have that much of a problem (and I realize I'm asking for it with that comment) cheating with Lucas on her best friend, why should she on a stranger. You can argue that she's matured farther then that, but I'm not sure she has.

    I don't know how you can say Lucas hid with Brooke. He loved her. Maybe different then the love he felt for Lindsey or Peyton, but to him and to her it was love. Remember it wasn't Lucas that ended the relationship it was Brooke. Plus I'd say when Peyton cheated with Lucas (yes way back in season 1) that was Peyton intentionally breaking them up. When Peyton told Brooke how she felt season 3, she must have known Brooke couldn't just brush that off. I'm still not convinced that she felt that it could cause serious reprecussions. And it did.

    Chick, I really want to respond to your's but it's late. I promise I'll be back tomorrow to respond.

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    indigorain_

    [30]May 4, 2008
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    Oy with the long posts!

    On the ring: I think would REALLY like to think that it was Karen's ring (mostly becasue it would dissprove everyone's theroy of Lucas being an a**), but what was said earlier sparked my attention: maybe Peyton just told Lindsey that it was Karen's to try to make her feel less ill at ease, considering we've had no hard evidence other than that that the ring was Karen's.

    On Dan/Karen/Keith: I think that Dan's true love (cheesey i know, but my brain is suffering toatal lack of coffee right now so bear with me, for it is not working right) was Karen, while Karen's true love was Kieth.

    More replies will come later (along with complaints about the length of the migrane inducing posts) but it is 11:00 and I need to go to sleep so I can wake up at 6:00.

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    krisi1021

    [31]May 5, 2008
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    For the record, there was a debate thread created MONTHS AND MONTHS ago by yours truly. It's called "Purely Debate", but as expected, it's lost in the pages and pages of dead posts. So, no harm no foul. I'm always down for a new debate thread.

    As for the topic at hand ... OY!

    I don't think Peyton is the second choice here. Lucas proved when he kissed her that that moment with Peyton was more important than his relationship, otherwise he never would've risked such just to kiss her.
    I don't think that had Lindsey not found that ring, that Lucas would've proposed. He kept a ring that was meant for Peyton, and only Peyton. He took it out to admire, which in turn lead to flashbacks of his relationship and time with Peyton. I don't think he would have proposed if Lindsey hadn't found the ring.
    I DO NOT think that that is the ring Keith gave Karen. Like Chick said there is no proof prior to this "revelation" that would support this being true.

    Ultimately, no one can decipher the actions of the heart. You can't explain why it is that your heart falls for who they do. It's the beauty of it all. Peyton loves Lucas, and that is obvious. She allowed herself to act upon her own accord, and he own feelings initially, but in the end saw what held a higher priority in her heart, which was Lucas' happiness. Peyton did lie about her reasoning for returning to Tree Hill in the beginning, and upon finding out Lucas had Lindsey in his life she backed off. Lucas was persistent with his comments and excessiveness of bringing up the past, that allowed Peyton to realize feelings were still there. It was then she began to fight for Lucas. Upon seeing the pain she was causing, and how messy things were getting she backed off. She sacrificed her happiness for that of Lucas'. She made the right decision. She wasn't saying that Lucas didn't love her, or that she didn't love him, or that she was playing second. She was just allowing Lucas to find his own way, and his own happiness without any added pressure on her part.

    I think Lucas truly loved Lindsey, and I won't argue that it wasn't real. I don't have an explanation for why he was willing to stand before God, and his family and friends, and state that he was ready to spend eternity with this woman, when his heart was obviously conflicted. It makes no sense to me! I think he truly wanted to believe in his love with Lindsey. I don't think he was willing to take the greater leap of faith and go for Peyton. He said long ago that due to the many failed attempts at him and Peyton having a relationship, he just had to believe that it wasn't meant to be. It didn't change his feelings, it was just something he had come to accept. Maybe he has put himself into the same position yet again. Maybe, once again, he has convinced himself that him and Peyton aren't meant to be, all based on that stinkin book signing. Then, upon finding out, in all actuality she had been there, his love and faith was tested, and rather than shake the foundation of what he had built over the past 2 years with Lindsey, he chose to push Peyton away. I DON'T KNOW, but I want to shake Lucas for the mess he has made.

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    luv2live

    [32]May 5, 2008
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    ^^^ Krisi, I'm almost scared to reply and have a huge debate start up again. LOL, I don't think my brain can take it plus I'm a lot less emotionally involved this time.
    I do agree that Lucas truly loved Lindsey, because the alternative isn't very appealing to me. The alternative that Lucas hasn't matured much in 4 years and he still has no idea what he wants or what his heart truly wants.
    I still worry about a Lucas/Peyton relationship. I have yet to see them WANT to be together, and by want I mean willing to fight for it; to put it on the line. The last time I saw them both willing to risk it all simultaneously was when they cheated on Brooke back in season 1. I'm not saying I agree with what they did; I'm not. But at that time I saw what they were both willing to risk to be together. I haven't seen that since.
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  • Avatar of Chick94

    Chick94

    [33]May 5, 2008
    • member since: 08/03/06
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 9,203

    ^^^I may be up-to-date on the best type of romance stories there are, but "fighting for each other" is--or a lack of a better word--lame. I saw it with Brooke and Lucas back in S3 and it annoyed me though I understood Brooke's seasons fully and clearly. I apologize forehand for generalizing about my own gender but I did most females are very driven to the type of stories where the guys really fight for the girls, doing all these very big and elaborate things to make the girls happy and I have a lot of distaste for such storylines.

    For me, true, simple, and pure love comes from the simplest forms. Excepting someone's love without suspicion or doubt is the most beautiful form of love imo. When one needs to prove their love, I find it very childish, though ironically my view of "simple love" may seen very naive to some. I'm very big on trust, I believe its the most precious element you can ever give another person, so when you trust someone, you dont find yourself yarning for proof and evidence. And so the way LP got together in S4 were perfect in my eyes and if after everything Lucas has done this season, Peyton is still able to take him back (after he explains and apologizes, of course) then that'd be more than enough for me. While grand gestures and "jumping though a ring of fire" for someone may convince some or most about the certainly of someone's love for another, its all unnecessary to me. LP can show the strength, love, and determination in their relationship after they get together and deal with issues that will certainly come their way---together. That'll be proof enough for me.

    On a side note, this feels like old times with the three of us debating together again.

    ETA: I'm not opposed to "risking" things to be with one another though, I think that would be very interesting. I love sacrificial characters and relationships!

    Edited on 05/05/2008 5:04pm
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  • Avatar of PLforever

    PLforever

    [34]May 5, 2008
    • member since: 01/19/08
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 244
    krisi1021 wrote:

    For the record, there was a debate thread created MONTHS AND MONTHS ago by yours truly. It's called "Purely Debate", but as expected, it's lost in the pages and pages of dead posts. So, no harm no foul. I'm always down for a new debate thread.

    As for the topic at hand ... OY!

    I don't think Peyton is the second choice here. Lucas proved when he kissed her that that moment with Peyton was more important than his relationship, otherwise he never would've risked such just to kiss her.
    I don't think that had Lindsey not found that ring, that Lucas would've proposed. He kept a ring that was meant for Peyton, and only Peyton. He took it out to admire, which in turn lead to flashbacks of his relationship and time with Peyton. I don't think he would have proposed if Lindsey hadn't found the ring.
    I DO NOT think that that is the ring Keith gave Karen. Like Chick said there is no proof prior to this "revelation" that would support this being true.

    Ultimately, no one can decipher the actions of the heart. You can't explain why it is that your heart falls for who they do. It's the beauty of it all. Peyton loves Lucas, and that is obvious. She allowed herself to act upon her own accord, and he own feelings initially, but in the end saw what held a higher priority in her heart, which was Lucas' happiness. Peyton did lie about her reasoning for returning to Tree Hill in the beginning, and upon finding out Lucas had Lindsey in his life she backed off. Lucas was persistent with his comments and excessiveness of bringing up the past, that allowed Peyton to realize feelings were still there. It was then she began to fight for Lucas. Upon seeing the pain she was causing, and how messy things were getting she backed off. She sacrificed her happiness for that of Lucas'. She made the right decision. She wasn't saying that Lucas didn't love her, or that she didn't love him, or that she was playing second. She was just allowing Lucas to find his own way, and his own happiness without any added pressure on her part.

    I think Lucas truly loved Lindsey, and I won't argue that it wasn't real. I don't have an explanation for why he was willing to stand before God, and his family and friends, and state that he was ready to spend eternity with this woman, when his heart was obviously conflicted. It makes no sense to me! I think he truly wanted to believe in his love with Lindsey. I don't think he was willing to take the greater leap of faith and go for Peyton. He said long ago that due to the many failed attempts at him and Peyton having a relationship, he just had to believe that it wasn't meant to be. It didn't change his feelings, it was just something he had come to accept. Maybe he has put himself into the same position yet again. Maybe, once again, he has convinced himself that him and Peyton aren't meant to be, all based on that stinkin book signing. Then, upon finding out, in all actuality she had been there, his love and faith was tested, and rather than shake the foundation of what he had built over the past 2 years with Lindsey, he chose to push Peyton away. I DON'T KNOW, but I want to shake Lucas for the mess he has made.


    nice post krisi. i still love reading your post/debates. you some how always seem to word things the right way and make it out for what it is. lol i had so many things i wanted to write/say but didnt have time or felt like i wuldnt be able to word things right to make people understand. lol thanks for coming in here and making perfect sense of it all. lol

    Oh and yes you tooo CHICK, i for one loved your post also.
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  • Avatar of lovingpizonica

    lovingpizonica

    [35]May 5, 2008
    • member since: 11/06/07
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 1,469
    I really don't have a lot of opinions about the topic at hand because it seems like it's been pretty thoroughly covered (good job, everyone!), but I think the idea that Dan and Karen were each other's true loves doesn't make sense whatsoever. Yes, Dan did say something of the sort, but only in order to hurt Deb. He's said just as many terrible things to Karen to hurt her about his reasons for ditching her for Deb; what's to say that this comment has any ring of truth to it at all? Dan, above all, does whatever serves him the best. He is manipulative and deceitful, which makes him one of the most interesting characters, but nothing he says...nothing at all...can be trusted. Dan might even have fooled himself into believing he actually cared for Karen last season, but only because he was so guilty for killing Keith and taking him away from her; he saw Karen as a way to make his life better, to get back to the way it could have been. But did that stop him from labeling Lucas a liar and turning Karen against him? Of course not. Because Dan can't change, and that's what makes him Dan.
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  • Avatar of luv2live

    luv2live

    [36]May 5, 2008
    • member since: 06/04/05
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,741
    Chick94 wrote:

    ^^^I may be up-to-date on the best type of romance stories there are, but "fighting for each other" is--or a lack of a better word--lame. I saw it with Brooke and Lucas back in S3 and it annoyed me though I understood Brooke's seasons fully and clearly. I apologize forehand for generalizing about my own gender but I did most females are very driven to the type of stories where the guys really fight for the girls, doing all these very big and elaborate things to make the girls happy and I have a lot of distaste for such storylines.

    For me, true, simple, and pure love comes from the simplest forms. Excepting someone's love without suspicion or doubt is the most beautiful form of love imo. When one needs to prove their love, I find it very childish, though ironically my view of "simple love" may seen very naive to some. I'm very big on trust, I believe its the most precious element you can ever give another person, so when you trust someone, you dont find yourself yarning for proof and evidence. And so the way LP got together in S4 were perfect in my eyes and if after everything Lucas has done this season, Peyton is still able to take him back (after he explains and apologizes, of course) then that'd be more than enough for me. While grand gestures and "jumping though a ring of fire" for someone may convince some or most about the certainly of someone's love for another, its all unnecessary to me. LP can show the strength, love, and determination in their relationship after they get together and deal with issues that will certainly come their way---together. That'll be proof enough for me.

    On a side note, this feels like old times with the three of us debating together again.

    ETA: I'm not opposed to "risking" things to be with one another though, I think that would be very interesting. I love sacrificial characters and relationships!


    I'm not talking about big gestures but love doesn't come easy, its a work in progress and you always have to continue working at it. That's what I'm talking about when I say fight for love. I'm fine with simple love, I also think it's great but it still requires work. They did get together in a great way in season 4 but when there was trouble they didn't work for it. Is this how its always going to be; is this a pattern that they are setting up for the future? I hope not.
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  • Avatar of sequel90210

    sequel90210

    [37]May 6, 2008
    • member since: 04/21/08
    • level: 23
    • rank: Close Talker
    • posts: 1,035

    luv2live wrote:
    They did get together in a great way in season 4 but when there was trouble they didn't work for it. Is this how its always going to be; is this a pattern that they are setting up for the future? I hope not.

    I guess, that's the way Leyton relationships are... they are so great together, so happy! but when they meet any problem they just stop without trying to solve this...

    S1: Peyton said she wanted just sex and Luke started dating Brooke. then she realized she wanted everything with him, but NO -- as Luke said to Haley it was easier with Brooke but not with Peyton who couldn't understand what she wanted. then Luke realized that Peyton was his true love -- they started some sort of relationships but when everything was ruined he hooked up with Nikki. when Peyton figured out about it she said "goodbye" to Luke -- no attempts to understand or at least to talk about everything that happened.

    S2: did they even remember about each other???

    S3: Brucas season! and Luke and Peyton were just great friends! and their friendship was SO... (I have no words -- I just loved it!) -- they met all troubles together, they always were there for each other!

    S4: Leyton's reunion!!! and really perfect season (well, the second half of it) for them! but imo there were no situations that could ruin their love...

    S5: Luke loving Lindsey and Peyton moaning about Luke. and then we figure out what has happened... Peyton said "someday", Luke decided it was "no" and their love was not enough. he left her in the hotel room with the CD she made for him... and the end of the story -- she didn't try, he didn't try... but wait, after it there was the book singing in LA and Luke asked Peyton to come to it. she did (with her really weird hairstyle ) and saw Linsey. "yeap, that's his new "TLA" and he wanted me to meet her!" -- decided Peyton and left! that was one of her biggest mistake and she still regrets about it.

    well, now Peyton tries to fight for Luke but it's too late!

    I still believe in Leyton and their TLA although they need to learn building the strong and long relationships!

    Edited on 05/06/2008 12:32am
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  • Avatar of indigorain_

    indigorain_

    [38]May 6, 2008
    • member since: 04/18/07
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 545
    Krisi: I remember that thread! Was that the one that got turned into a timeless debate between coke and pepsi? (At least this thread hasn't gotten to that point... yet...). I agree with most of your points, like how Peyton was and then wasn't and then was interfering with Lucas' and Lindsey's relationship.

    Luv2live: I agree that we haven't really seen them risk to be together, but I don't think they need to. We know that they love eachother, but since S1 they haven't exactly risked anything for that, bacause even when they were together, niehter were on good terms with Brooke, making it not possible for them to risk anything.

    Chick: I "fighting-for-eachother" stories. I find them shallow more often than not, and they seem increadably unrealsitic, but then again, was OTH ever?

    PLforever: Agreed, I too love reading the debates and seeing what pointless discussions they evolve into.

    Piz: Well, like I said before, I thought that Karen was Dan's "true love", but reading your post I now think that those feelings that he (might've) felt in S4 were ghosts and he was feeling increadable guilt for taking Kieth away from Karen, and trying to make it better.

    Sequel: I agree with what you said about the LP in the seasons.

    ^^^ Did those points count as debate posts of just pinion pieces? Oh well, blame the shortage of coffee in my system.
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  • Avatar of krisi1021

    krisi1021

    [39]May 6, 2008
    • member since: 09/29/06
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 4,770

    sequel90210 - I don't think there's any truth in that statement, "they are so great together, so happy! but when they meet any problem they just stop without trying to solve this... ".
    Peyton was willing to work things out regarding the proposal, while Lucas wasn't. Lucas has never been one to "fight" for anything. We saw this with Brooke. He continued trying to fight for her, but all he did was dig a deeper hole, that was the furthest thing from fighting for Brooke. So, to expect him to fight for Peyton, is OOC for Lucas. His way of fighting for their relationship was showing up and proposing. He expected that to solve all their distance issues, and bring them back together, but in reality, if he would've stepped away from his state of desperation, he would've seen that there was nothing wrong with their relationship. He was fighting to hold onto something that he thought was slipping away, when it wasn't. He was trying to force either him or Peyton to have to give up their dreams in order to make it work, and once again, if he wasn't in such a state of desperation, he would've realized how wrong that is.

    S1: Peyton did not say she only wanted sex with him at this point. Brooke said that. Lucas made it clear he wanted everything with Peyton, and this scared her, which I think it would any normal teenage girl that has fears of letting people in. She flees, and then Lucas then says that while he has "a deep emotional connection with Peyton", Brooke "is the fun girl" who doesn't have as much "baggage" as he applied to Peyton. Basically a nice long way of labeling Brooke as his rebound from what he wanted and expected from Peyton. Then, Peyton realizes she wants all of the same things with Lucas BEFORE she ever even knew Lucas went out on a date with Brooke. I can prove this, b/c while Lucas is out on a date with Brooke, which Peyton has NO KNOWLEDGE of, she's drawing in an addition to her initial art piece where Lucas says he wants everything with her. She's adding in, "And now we can have it", when she picks up the phone to call Lucas. He doesn't answer b/c it shows up out of area or unknown, and continues on his date. Later, when Peyton finds out about the date, she rushes to address the issue and her feelings with Lucas, only to find out that now, instead of just a date, Brucas is a couple. Hence her backing off. She ends up slipping, and falling victim to the desires of her heart, and inevitably betraying Brooke, only to push Lucas away ultimately to rekindle her friendship with Brooke. I think that was the right decision. Lucas, heartbroken AGAIN, turns to the first girl he can find, and rebounds with Nikki. Big whoop! It's Lucas' MO from his heartache from not getting to be with Peyton.

    S2: Peyton is very withdrawn in this season. She closes up all her feelings, and finds solice in Jake of all people. Like Lucas hid with Brooke in S1, I think Peyton attempted to hide from her problems with Jake. He was her emotional crutch of sorts. Inevitably it turned into something more, but I think Peyton loved him b/c she felt she needed him in her life to get by. I think she became TOO dependent upon Jake, which ultimately hurt their relationship in the end. She refuses to open up to Lucas, and the season ends with a shot of them on the beach, her upset over Jake being gone, and him comforting her, saying, "It's always going to be there ... you and me".

    S3: It was all Brucas like you said. Leyton maintained a great friendship, Peyton withdrew from both Brooke and Lucas, or at least attempted to, whenever she realized where her heart lied. Lucas persisted upon them being there for one another. Despite Brooke begging him to go one afternoon without talking to Peyton, he still managed to talk to her. Peyton reveals her feelings, Brooke hates her, and then takes it out on her relationship with Lucas. IMO, I think Brooke was feeling all the things she mentioned for awhile with Lucas, but Peyton's feelings only made Brooke act upon hers. I don't think Brooke broke up with Lucas b/c of Peyton love for him, or b/c of Peyton's confession of this to Brooke. I think Brooke was finally angry enough to address all her issues with Lucas, but had held them in so long that it was irreparable. Lucas, dumbfounded can't say squat.

    S4: All about Leyton. Brooke finally comes to terms with her and Lucas' issues, and she let's Lucas go. Leyton are happy together. They face the issue of Dan being the murderer, Peyton's internship, and Lucas' book. They had their little hurdles and they crossed them together. Peyton supporting Lucas rather than pushing him. That's what I love about them. Peyton wasn't demanding of Lucas, b/c she had trust and faith in their love. She didn't need the constant affection and to be reassured of their love. It was just there. They left on a good note.

    I think Lucas rushed things, and ultimately that is what ruined their relationship. Peyton wasn't saying she didn't want to marry him, or that she didn't want him. She wanted both of them to follow their hearts and continue pursuing their dreams and Lucas didn't. I think Peyton was offended by Lucas' disapproval in her choice to keep working a dead end job in the hopes of getting somewhere. I think Lucas misread what Peyton said, and b/c he was already hurt by her response, overreacted to it all. I think the fact that Peyton did show up to Lucas' signing proves that their love was meant to be, and it was strong enough to transcend time and distance. I think Peyton was too hurt and embarassed that she got her hopes up for what she thought was a reunion of their love, that she left without saying a word to conceal her own disappointment. I hate misunderstandings.

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  • Avatar of sequel90210

    sequel90210

    [40]May 6, 2008
    • member since: 04/21/08
    • level: 23
    • rank: Close Talker
    • posts: 1,035
    well, krisi1021. I agree with you in many points. especially in that one that Luke never fought for any girl in his life. that's what he's about.
    but I still think that Peyton wasn't trying to do smth with their relationships, too. look, she got that Luke misread her "not now/someday" rejection and she knew he was hurt by it -- that's how the most of people will feel on his place. especially they had this great Naley example who married without thinking about future and other stuff just 'coz they were SO in love! Luke expected Peyton to do the same thing. she got it and I'm sure she understood it. but did she even call him after this??? they talked for the first time while Lucas was asking her to come to his singing. I think it's his way to try to make their relationships work. and he decided that Peyton didn't come 'coz she didn't feel the same way. so he started dating Lindsey.

    well, I hate misunderstandings, too, but there were no good storylines and this thread without them
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