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The CW (ended 2012)

Debate Thread - anything and everything: Topic: Shoulda Coulda Woulda

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    luv2live

    [41]May 6, 2008
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    krisi1021 wrote:

    sequel90210 - I don't think there's any truth in that statement, "they are so great together, so happy! but when they meet any problem they just stop without trying to solve this... ".
    Peyton was willing to work things out regarding the proposal, while Lucas wasn't. Lucas has never been one to "fight" for anything. We saw this with Brooke. He continued trying to fight for her, but all he did was dig a deeper hole, that was the furthest thing from fighting for Brooke. So, to expect him to fight for Peyton, is OOC for Lucas. His way of fighting for their relationship was showing up and proposing. He expected that to solve all their distance issues, and bring them back together, but in reality, if he would've stepped away from his state of desperation, he would've seen that there was nothing wrong with their relationship. He was fighting to hold onto something that he thought was slipping away, when it wasn't. He was trying to force either him or Peyton to have to give up their dreams in order to make it work, and once again, if he wasn't in such a state of desperation, he would've realized how wrong that is.

    S1: Peyton did not say she only wanted sex with him at this point. Brooke said that. Lucas made it clear he wanted everything with Peyton, and this scared her, which I think it would any normal teenage girl that has fears of letting people in. She flees, and then Lucas then says that while he has "a deep emotional connection with Peyton", Brooke "is the fun girl" who doesn't have as much "baggage" as he applied to Peyton. Basically a nice long way of labeling Brooke as his rebound from what he wanted and expected from Peyton. Then, Peyton realizes she wants all of the same things with Lucas BEFORE she ever even knew Lucas went out on a date with Brooke. I can prove this, b/c while Lucas is out on a date with Brooke, which Peyton has NO KNOWLEDGE of, she's drawing in an addition to her initial art piece where Lucas says he wants everything with her. She's adding in, "And now we can have it", when she picks up the phone to call Lucas. He doesn't answer b/c it shows up out of area or unknown, and continues on his date. Later, when Peyton finds out about the date, she rushes to address the issue and her feelings with Lucas, only to find out that now, instead of just a date, Brucas is a couple. Hence her backing off. She ends up slipping, and falling victim to the desires of her heart, and inevitably betraying Brooke, only to push Lucas away ultimately to rekindle her friendship with Brooke. I think that was the right decision. Lucas, heartbroken AGAIN, turns to the first girl he can find, and rebounds with Nikki. Big whoop! It's Lucas' MO from his heartache from not getting to be with Peyton.

    S2: Peyton is very withdrawn in this season. She closes up all her feelings, and finds solice in Jake of all people. Like Lucas hid with Brooke in S1, I think Peyton attempted to hide from her problems with Jake. He was her emotional crutch of sorts. Inevitably it turned into something more, but I think Peyton loved him b/c she felt she needed him in her life to get by. I think she became TOO dependent upon Jake, which ultimately hurt their relationship in the end. She refuses to open up to Lucas, and the season ends with a shot of them on the beach, her upset over Jake being gone, and him comforting her, saying, "It's always going to be there ... you and me".

    S3: It was all Brucas like you said. Leyton maintained a great friendship, Peyton withdrew from both Brooke and Lucas, or at least attempted to, whenever she realized where her heart lied. Lucas persisted upon them being there for one another. Despite Brooke begging him to go one afternoon without talking to Peyton, he still managed to talk to her. Peyton reveals her feelings, Brooke hates her, and then takes it out on her relationship with Lucas. IMO, I think Brooke was feeling all the things she mentioned for awhile with Lucas, but Peyton's feelings only made Brooke act upon hers. I don't think Brooke broke up with Lucas b/c of Peyton love for him, or b/c of Peyton's confession of this to Brooke. I think Brooke was finally angry enough to address all her issues with Lucas, but had held them in so long that it was irreparable. Lucas, dumbfounded can't say squat.

    S4: All about Leyton. Brooke finally comes to terms with her and Lucas' issues, and she let's Lucas go. Leyton are happy together. They face the issue of Dan being the murderer, Peyton's internship, and Lucas' book. They had their little hurdles and they crossed them together. Peyton supporting Lucas rather than pushing him. That's what I love about them. Peyton wasn't demanding of Lucas, b/c she had trust and faith in their love. She didn't need the constant affection and to be reassured of their love. It was just there. They left on a good note.

    I think Lucas rushed things, and ultimately that is what ruined their relationship. Peyton wasn't saying she didn't want to marry him, or that she didn't want him. She wanted both of them to follow their hearts and continue pursuing their dreams and Lucas didn't. I think Peyton was offended by Lucas' disapproval in her choice to keep working a dead end job in the hopes of getting somewhere. I think Lucas misread what Peyton said, and b/c he was already hurt by her response, overreacted to it all. I think the fact that Peyton did show up to Lucas' signing proves that their love was meant to be, and it was strong enough to transcend time and distance. I think Peyton was too hurt and embarassed that she got her hopes up for what she thought was a reunion of their love, that she left without saying a word to conceal her own disappointment. I hate misunderstandings.

    I agree with and disagree, no surprise there huh. Your forgetting in season 1 Peyton reassured Brooke that Lucas did care for her and she was basically worthy of dating him. The biggest problem I've had with it, and always will is that she reassured her, and told her everything was alright and then went and cheated. If she had been up front about her feelings and honest there wouldn't have been any cheating. Yes, Peyton backed off afterwards but in some ways I feel like it was too little to late. She chose Lucas over her friendship with Brooke and I feel like once she made that decision she should have had enough guts to stick with it. The damage is done; once something is broken you can't say sorry I wish that hadn't happened and just magically have it fixed. Peyton made the decision to risk her friendship with Brooke to be with Lucas, so be with him. Own up to your decision.

    As for Season 3, it always bothers me. I give Peyton credit for wanting to do things differently with Brooke and be honest but it still doesn't seem to ring true. Brooke had just shared a bunch with Peyton about how she was feeling about her relationship with Lucas and Peyton used that against her. That's not fair. Brooke checked with Peyton back before they started dating the second time to see if it was alright, to see if it was going to cause conflict and she said it was okay.

    As for Brooke having everything build up and then explode, I agree it did. Lucas did seem blown away by this but I think it was obvious that Brooke still loved Lucas, those feelings hadn't gone away. We saw at the end of the basketball banquet episode, I believe it was, looking at pictures of the two of them, cuddly and loving. To me it was her remembering what they had and her missing it. We also know from the flashback scene in 5x05 that she still cared for him. At the end of the night, she said "I'm going to go and you probably won't see me for a while." That kiss brought everything back for her and how much she loved him; probably always will. "He was the one who was worth giving it all up for".

    I've also always been a little suspect of Peyton's efforts in the beginning to season 4 to get Brooke and Lucas back together. I always felt like she just went through the motions so Lucas would believe she was this great person. To me, they always seemed lackluste at best. Didn't seem to me she had Lucas' best intentions or his wants in mind, but rather her own.

    Not my best rebuttal but there's something. Let the debating continue!!

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    Clean0002

    [42]May 6, 2008
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    sequel90210: Naley is a very different couple and people compared to lucas and Peyton so what works for them won't work for LP. I think when Lucas won the championship with his college team and saw the Naley family together he longed for the same thing hence the 409 flashback. He forgot what he and Peyton were because of an insecurity and because of loneliness. Like Krisi said, if he only took a step back to evaluate the situation he would have thought differently but that is not like Lucas to do that. He follows his heart without thinking about the consequences. He lays it all on the line even if it is not the right time to do so.

    The reason Peyton didn't call him after the proposal was because she knows Lucas and when he left the CD she knew he "wanted" it to be over at that point in time. She never pushes Lucas when he isn't ready, we have seen that all throughout the series and in this case it's no different. She knows he has to come around on his own time so that is what she lets him do. She has enough faith in their love so she knows if they are meant to be they will be and she also knows it is up to Lucas to realize this fact. When he calls her to come to the book signing she takes that as her sign that they are finally ready to move forward. Lucas also knows he will have his answer if she shows up or not. As Brooke tells him in 505, he needs to work on himself first before he can be ready for Peyton again which is why he didn't call Peyton until the signing. This is why I love LP, Peyton knew he needed time so she gave it to him and he knew he needed time and received it from Peyton. They perfect together but that is when the misunderstanding happened. But they will find their way back to each other, they are just on a detour like season 2.

    Edited on 05/06/2008 9:41pm
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    Chick94

    [43]May 6, 2008
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    I thought Brooke's advice was all a big baloney. The logical and common response would be "go back to her and apologize" NOT "stay away for a year then call her" What makes her so sure Peyton wont be in another relationship by then? Possibly married or just, after holding onto the hope of Lucas calling her after their breakup, she wont feel bitter and unwilling?
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    Clean0002

    [44]May 6, 2008
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    Chick I am shocked we don't agree! Brooke was right which is why I think it was good that she said that. He wasn't ready to be with Peyton. His impromtu trip proved that. He wasn't ready to handle the distance or trust enough in them and that their love could survive it all. He had too many insecurities regarding himself in which he let seep into his relationship with Peyton. He needed to get himself together and to me that shows strength of character. Sometimes you have to take a step back and find yourself and be okay with yourself before being with someone else and this was the case here.
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    luv2live

    [45]May 6, 2008
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    Chick94 wrote:
    I thought Brooke's advice was all a big baloney. The logical and common response would be "go back to her and apologize" NOT "stay away for a year then call her" What makes her so sure Peyton wont be in another relationship by then? Possibly married or just, after holding onto the hope of Lucas calling her after their breakup, she wont feel bitter and unwilling?

    Part of me thinks it was the wrong advice but part of me agrees with her. He did need to figure out what he wanted in life before jumping into a marriage. He was hurt and he had to work through his feelings before running back to her with all the emotions still a mess. She gave him the advice based on her own experiences. When they hurt her, she needed to take time and work through it all. In the end, she and they were able to repair their relationships. Brooke just passed along the advice that worked for her.
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    Chick94

    [46]May 6, 2008
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    luv2live, trust me, I understand completely where that advice came from, I know Brooke was drawing from her own experiences but I think she would have known Lucas (or anyone for that matter) doesnt operate the way she does, she basically used her work as distraction, got herself so much into it that she didnt think about anything else but Lucas didnt need distractions, he needed to go and make things right, things that he, himself, messed up in the first place. The two cases were not the same and thats why the advice seemed out of place.

    But you know what? I think the storyline was set up this way to create problems for LP, obviously if Lucas went and apologized for his mistake, LP would have been together again and wheres the story in that? It was all a plot device. I think realistically, Brooke would told him to go back and make things right because she knows the opportunity is still open and because she knows that while Lucas is hurting here, Peyton, her best friend, is hurting over there.

    Cleanie, I dont think things would've been as hard to deal with since we know Lucas got his dream to come true after he got that call from Lindsey, there was no rejection letters tearing him down anymore eating away at his self-esteem, he was on the top of the world. Had he gone to make things right with Peyton, everything would have been ok but because he didnt, we have this screwed up storyline right now.

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    Clean0002

    [47]May 7, 2008
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    I just didn't see him as emotionally ready to be with Peyton. If he was he wouldn't have proposed out of blue and wouldn't have taken her "someday" as a no. He had to work on himself first and that meant focusing his time on his book and becoming a stronger person. I don't think he was ready to be with Peyton and I am glad they broke up. I am not happy we are where we are at right now but without the book signing misunderstanding LP would be happily together right now.
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    Chick94

    [48]May 7, 2008
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    Clean0002 wrote:
    I am glad they broke up.

    You'll regret that next episode

    You make a good point, Lucas was so messed up he didnt even understand her words fully but...I dont know, it all seems like a waste if we got nothing out of Lucas' whole year of self-inflection. And the way he is now, makes me think that when he was ready to get back together with her at the booksigning he wasnt ready for her then either if to this day he believes she said no. Its just poor writing to give Michaela a job of course. It was said that LL were supposed to end quickly but that didnt happen and we all know why...*sigh*

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    Clean0002

    [49]May 7, 2008
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    I agree it is poor writing and I think they could have done so much more with this sl and Lucas coming to terms with his feelings and who he is as a person instead of this nonsense with Lindsey just because they like Michela. We have gone on a whole season with this crap. Lucas has said the same thing for the last 4 episodes! Mark has said the show is about the characters growing up and findng themselves and the paths they are suppose to take in life and Lucas has been at a stand still for awhile now so how does that fit with what the show is about? Because Mark likes Michela so much it is preventing the growth of Lucas and making him not well liked by the viewers. That is pretty stupid if you ask me, messing up a character because you like another actor.
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    Chick94

    [50]May 7, 2008
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    He should have made her Mouth's girlfriend if he wanted to give her an acting job on OTH
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    Clean0002

    [51]May 7, 2008
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    Chick94 wrote:
    He should have made her Mouth's girlfriend if he wanted to give her an acting job on OTH

    Well they already have Millicent for that but they could have done a Mouth triangle! J/K! That would be terrible!

    Anyway, they could have just gotten rid of her after episode 9 like originally planned and I would have been able to deal with that.

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    krisi1021

    [52]May 7, 2008
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    luv2live, I think I was directing my post towards something specific which is why I left out finer details regarding Brooke and Peyton. So please don't think it's b/c I intentionally chose to ignore them.
    To be frank, I'm a bit tired of people blaming Peyton for saying it was okay for Brooke to go after Lucas in S1 and in S2 or 3, whichever it was.
    The first time Peyton hadn't even deciphered her own feelings for Lucas, or if she even had any. That's like me asking you if you are going to be crying on this day 10 weeks from now, or if you'll be happy instead. You don't know, b/c you don't know how you will feel, or what you will face in the coming weeks. It's the same with Peyton. She had yet to get a grasp on what she was feeling, let alone understand it well enough to act on it. Yet, everyone blames her saying that she shouldn't have lied to Brooke about her feelings. How on earth can you lie about something you aren't even aware of??? Answer me that.
    The second time Peyton had begun getting closer with Jake. Why on earth would Peyton have any issues with Brooke and Lucas when she's involved with Jake??? Had she told Brooke not to go for Lucas then all that would have happened is made her look stupid and selfish. Peyton was genuinely interested in Jake, and felt her and Lucas were good as friends and only that. How was she to know that over a year down the road she would realize that she still loved Lucas and that she had been running from it this whole time??? So, not we have to blame Peyton for not being psychic???

    I don't think Peyton was taking what Brooke said to use against her, I just think Peyton was using what Brooke said to further justify her being honest with Brooke, and maybe help explain why she chose to be honest with Brooke. If you notice, after confessing, Peyton said, "But you said ...", regarding what Brooke had told her the day before, as if to show Brooke why Peyton felt it was as good a time as any to confess to her. I don't think Peyton was meaning to use that as verbal ammunition on Brooke at all.

    I didn't think Brooke said that Lucas was "the one worth giving it up for", I thought she said, he was "the one she almost gave it all up for". I could be wrong to be honest, that's just what I thought. Either way, I do think that Brooke held onto a glimmer of hope regarding Lucas. I think she tried to move on, but in reality she never did. I think it was that night at the hotel that everything finally made sense to her, and she finally let go and moved on, and her hope was inevitably shattered. I mean, what Lucas did that night was disrespectful, and distasteful, and showed no concern or courtesy for Brooke. Luckily he was drunk ... so I'll chalk it up to the alcohol.

    I think Peyton's efforts to get Lucas and Brooke back together were a mixture of things.
    1) Obviously I think she partially blamed herself for their split, like most Brucas fans. Lol I don't think it was Peyton's fault that Brucas broke up, b/c it's obvious they had their own issues, I just feel Peyton's confession provoked Brooke's securities of losing Lucas to Peyton, which in turn caused all their issues to come to a head. Their problems had always been there, but Peyton's confession unintentionally caused them to finally get the best of Brooke.
    2) I think Peyton truly felt that in order to know if it was real, Lucas had to follow his heart. She wanted Lucas to be happy, and upon confirming that with him, she did everything in her power to assure that he genuinely fought for Brooke. I mean, I think the genuinity of her actions was made clear wihen she risked her own chance of rekindling with her best friend, just so Lucas could have a shot at getting back with Brooke.

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    indigorain_

    [53]May 8, 2008
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    krisi1021 wrote:

    I think it was that night at the hotel that everything finally made sense to her, and she finally let go and moved on, and her hope was inevitably shattered. I mean, what Lucas did that night was disrespectful, and distasteful, and showed no concern or courtesy for Brooke. Luckily he was drunk ... so I'll chalk it up to the alcohol.



    When was that? I mean they were only in a hotel 3 times (at least that I can remember), and none of the times was Lucas drunk. Peyton was drunk in the S3 sparkle episode, and if that was what you were talking about, Brooke didn't let go of him and move on.
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    krisi1021

    [54]May 8, 2008
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    indigorain_ wrote:
    krisi1021 wrote:

    I think it was that night at the hotel that everything finally made sense to her, and she finally let go and moved on, and her hope was inevitably shattered. I mean, what Lucas did that night was disrespectful, and distasteful, and showed no concern or courtesy for Brooke. Luckily he was drunk ... so I'll chalk it up to the alcohol.



    When was that? I mean they were only in a hotel 3 times (at least that I can remember), and none of the times was Lucas drunk. Peyton was drunk in the S3 sparkle episode, and if that was what you were talking about, Brooke didn't let go of him and move on.


    S5, flashback to the night Lucas came to NY to meet with Lindsey about publishing his book. It was immediately following his proposal to Peyton, and her response of "someday". They had been out drinking b/c bars thought they were engaged, they took a carriage ride, and went back to Lucas' hotel. Brooke was helping undress him, and he kissed her and said she should stay. Everything was written on Brooke's face in that moment. Pain, sudden realization, and most importantly what had to be done. It was obvious that Brooke hadn't ever truly let go of Lucas, and the chance that they might somehow make it back to one another. In that moment is when I feel Brooke FINALLY received closure on her breakup with Lucas in S4.
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    luv2live

    [55]May 8, 2008
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    krisi1021 wrote:
    indigorain_ wrote:
    krisi1021 wrote:

    I think it was that night at the hotel that everything finally made sense to her, and she finally let go and moved on, and her hope was inevitably shattered. I mean, what Lucas did that night was disrespectful, and distasteful, and showed no concern or courtesy for Brooke. Luckily he was drunk ... so I'll chalk it up to the alcohol.



    When was that? I mean they were only in a hotel 3 times (at least that I can remember), and none of the times was Lucas drunk. Peyton was drunk in the S3 sparkle episode, and if that was what you were talking about, Brooke didn't let go of him and move on.


    S5, flashback to the night Lucas came to NY to meet with Lindsey about publishing his book. It was immediately following his proposal to Peyton, and her response of "someday". They had been out drinking b/c bars thought they were engaged, they took a carriage ride, and went back to Lucas' hotel. Brooke was helping undress him, and he kissed her and said she should stay. Everything was written on Brooke's face in that moment. Pain, sudden realization, and most importantly what had to be done. It was obvious that Brooke hadn't ever truly let go of Lucas, and the chance that they might somehow make it back to one another. In that moment is when I feel Brooke FINALLY received closure on her breakup with Lucas in S4.

    That night in the hotel was tough for Brooke; once again she had the first love of her life in front of her; offering one more night. And she had to say no. It was tough; that's for sure.
    Krisi, I know I need to respond to your long statement above, but I haven't had much desire to debate.
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    indigorain_

    [56]May 9, 2008
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    luv2live wrote:
    krisi1021 wrote:
    indigorain_ wrote:
    krisi1021 wrote:

    I think it was that night at the hotel that everything finally made sense to her, and she finally let go and moved on, and her hope was inevitably shattered. I mean, what Lucas did that night was disrespectful, and distasteful, and showed no concern or courtesy for Brooke. Luckily he was drunk ... so I'll chalk it up to the alcohol.



    When was that? I mean they were only in a hotel 3 times (at least that I can remember), and none of the times was Lucas drunk. Peyton was drunk in the S3 sparkle episode, and if that was what you were talking about, Brooke didn't let go of him and move on.


    S5, flashback to the night Lucas came to NY to meet with Lindsey about publishing his book. It was immediately following his proposal to Peyton, and her response of "someday". They had been out drinking b/c bars thought they were engaged, they took a carriage ride, and went back to Lucas' hotel. Brooke was helping undress him, and he kissed her and said she should stay. Everything was written on Brooke's face in that moment. Pain, sudden realization, and most importantly what had to be done. It was obvious that Brooke hadn't ever truly let go of Lucas, and the chance that they might somehow make it back to one another. In that moment is when I feel Brooke FINALLY received closure on her breakup with Lucas in S4.

    That night in the hotel was tough for Brooke; once again she had the first love of her life in front of her; offering one more night. And she had to say no. It was tough; that's for sure.
    Krisi, I know I need to respond to your long statement above, but I haven't had much desire to debate.


    Right! Sorry I momentarily forgot about that, but seeing how I live in Bangladesh, and don't have a reliable site for watching the episodes, just youtube before the clips get taken off for 'terms of usage violations', I can't remember S5 things as well as the other 4 seasons, which I thankfully have on DVDs. But hey, at least my momentary stupidity and lack of memory sparked a few, nice, little comments on Brucas, and not full out bashing.
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    Chick94

    [57]May 9, 2008
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    indigorain_ wrote:
    Right! Sorry I momentarily forgot about that, but seeing how I live in Bangladesh

    Seriously! Thats where I'm from! I came to the US when I was 5 so naturally I dont remember anything about it but thats awesome, I didnt know people from that country watch OTH! I didnt even know they owned computers, let alone watch an American show on it lol You speak (or type lol) great english, were you born there or did you move there?

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    indigorain_

    [58]May 9, 2008
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    Chick94 wrote:

    indigorain_ wrote:
    Right! Sorry I momentarily forgot about that, but seeing how I live in Bangladesh

    Seriously! Thats where I'm from! I came to the US when I was 5 so naturally I dont remember anything about it but thats awesome, I didnt know people from that country watch OTH! I didnt even know they owned computers, let alone watch an American show on it lol. You speak (or type lol) great english, were you born there or did you move there?

    Lol. That's cool. I'm American and lived in DC for seven years, then I went to other places in Asia (the parents relocate a lot) and I've been here for a few years (Bangkok's next.). It's increadably internaitonal here (or at least in my school, AIS/D), whith people from all over. I watch OTH with three friends of mine (they're actually Scottish, Thai-Canadian and Senagalize(sp?)-American) but no one else that I know of watches it. And just for clarification, we DO own computers (almost all of my friends have mac-books or something) lol. I remember one of my friends from DC actuall asked me if we had electricity. LOL.

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    luv2live

    [59]May 13, 2008
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    New question or debate however you want to look at it.
    Since Brooke and Lucas have ended they both have had a serious relationship. Brooke with Chase and Lucas with Lindsey. Since Peyton and Lucas broke up, only he has had a serious relationship. Does this mean anything?
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    krisi1021

    [60]May 13, 2008
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    luv2live wrote:
    New question or debate however you want to look at it.
    Since Brooke and Lucas have ended they both have had a serious relationship. Brooke with Chase and Lucas with Lindsey. Since Peyton and Lucas broke up, only he has had a serious relationship. Does this mean anything?


    Well I don't think you can truly account Lucas' relationships for anything. Well not those that follow total heartbreak. Lucas held onto the hope that Peyton would come back for an entire year after he walked out on her that night at the hotel. He waited in hopes of her coming back to him, and the DAY that she was supposed to be there, and he didn't think she made it, he immediately starts dating Lindsey. He didn't allow himself time to heal from his hurt of Peyton not being at his signing. He immediately jumped into a relationship with Lindsey to hide the hurt. He became so invested into that relationship that he somehow hid, concealed, and forgot the pain. Peyton returning to Tree Hill brought all of that back for him, and it's been an emotional rollercoaster for him since.

    When Lucas and Brooke broke up ... Lucas had received full closure. Immediately he fought, b/c it was what he felt he needed to do to get Brooke back, but upon finally having some clarity, he realized that they didn't have as a couple, what he wanted to fight for. They didn't have what he wanted from loving someone else. He came to find out, after having FULL closure from his previous relationship that he had that with Peyton.

    Now we have Lucas heartbroken yet again, and Mark and Co. are leading us to believe that a Brucas return is possible in the horizon??? It seems that everytime Lucas gets with Brooke it's immediately following a fall out with another girl. I mean, S1 ... Peyton. S2 ... Anna. S3 ... Brooke (ironic I know). The only girl he has ever chose with a clear head and mind is Peyton. I think that says a lot. S2 I will give to Brucas though, b/c Lucas walked away from Anna. He chose to leave any chance of having her, just to confront Brooke. Then he finds her with Felix, which makes him all down and out again. Ugh!

    I don't think how many relationships, or even if they have had a relationship means anything really. I think it just shows that Peyton hasn't been able to move on from Lucas, which says a lot. I think her return to Tree Hill has also shown that Lucas never truly moved on from Peyton. You can't really move on when your heart is still hanging onto another person. It's only going to end up conflicting your true desires.
    Basically I've just rambled and haven't come to much of a conclusion.
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