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The CW (ended 2012)

Debate Thread - anything and everything: Topic: Shoulda Coulda Woulda

  • Avatar of aless888

    aless888

    [81]May 13, 2008
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    In my opinion the IHY only came out because Lucas was drowning his sorrows in alcohol and decided to put the blame on his break up with Lindsey on Peyton because its easier. In fact, I believe deep down he blames himself since he wrote the book that convinced her that he was still in love with Peyton.
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  • Avatar of huh920

    huh920

    [82]May 13, 2008
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    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    of course he said it with alcohol in his system so his judgment is bad. but tara, in vino veritas, a drunk heart doesnt lie...he may have normally never said anything like that while sober or even feel that much into it, but regardless, if you have this great romance, that just is not something that would come out, even when you are angry. I've been in plenty of fights with my loved one and you just do not say that, drunk or not. I'm not saying that is the main reason they dont love each other or anything like that, its merely another example of how I don't believe they are a strong romantic couple.


    I know a drunken heart doesnt lie and I am sure a part of Lucas really does blame Peyton for his messed up relationship but I am sure he does not hate her. Everyone's great romance's isnt the same. People say I hate you to their parents in heated moments. Most people obviously dont hate their parents. I see no difference between that and LP situation.
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  • Avatar of Jimbob2008

    Jimbob2008

    [83]May 13, 2008
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    huh920 wrote:
    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    of course he said it with alcohol in his system so his judgment is bad. but tara, in vino veritas, a drunk heart doesnt lie...he may have normally never said anything like that while sober or even feel that much into it, but regardless, if you have this great romance, that just is not something that would come out, even when you are angry. I've been in plenty of fights with my loved one and you just do not say that, drunk or not. I'm not saying that is the main reason they dont love each other or anything like that, its merely another example of how I don't believe they are a strong romantic couple.
    I know a drunken heart doesnt lie and I am sure a part of Lucas really does blame Peyton for his messed up relationship but I am sure he does not hate her. Everyone's great romance's isnt the same. People say I hate you to their parents in heated moments. Most people obviously dont hate their parents. I see no difference between that and LP situation.

    I know he doesn't reallly mean it, but he is feeling that he does right now...but besides that fact... a friendship/romantic relationship is different than the usual unconditional love of a parent/child relationship. You cant really compare that to a parent/child fight. What I'm saying is, how strong can that romantic relationship be when they constantly are having words destroy this "supposedly great" love they have.

    Edited on 05/13/2008 8:13pm
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  • Avatar of mandaaa24

    mandaaa24

    [84]May 13, 2008
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    cwprincss wrote:
    Season 4 was a joke. After being with Brooke off and on for three years, he all of a sudden has this realization that Peyton is "the one"??? Come on, that was a complete insult to the history of Brucas. Maybe if it would have been approached differently, it would have been better. There was no buildup at all to them all of a sudden being totally in love...just a few episodes before, he was still pining over Brooke. They have completely re-written the history of the entire show to accommodate Leyton.
    HAHAHAHA! Seriously, if that's what you believe you are sadly, sadly mistaken dude. If you had been paying attention for the 3 SEASONS, not years, SEASONS (in reality, it was only a year and a half) then you would know that LP did not under any circumstances whatsoever come out of nowhere. Lucas was infatuated with Peyton during S1, but they decided, for Brooke's benefit to end things. Then during S2, yes they lost touch a bit but they were still friends. In S3, for the beginning of it all Lucas did was spend time with Peyton (he did the summer before the season too) and then unfortunately he got back together with Brooke. (In fact, the episode he got back with her, he left to go be with Peyton while they were making out...now if that doesn't spell devotion {to Peyton}, I don't know what does) But he in no way, shape or form lost touch with Peyton and they were extremely close during that season. Then in S4, BL broke up due to certain circumstances, not all of which were Peyton related...most of the reasons had to do with insecurities and trust issues but lets not go there...and Lucas spent every one of the first 8 episodes with Peyton as her friend, and in TH time, that spells out 8 whole weeks... and then that escalated into their relationship that had never gone away to begin with. There was nothing about LP that insulted BL or their history...they mutually decided that their time was over and it was fun while it lasted but they weren't an epic love story to begin with. So honestly, I don't know where your conclusion about there being no build up came from because, and again I say, if you had been paying attention, you would have noticed every little thing that let us know that LP was indeed, NOT over and would never be.

    And as for the re-writing comment... though I sound like a broken record I must say it, Pay attention and maybe you'll understand it more because you're views are incredibly diluted.
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  • Avatar of Jimbob2008

    Jimbob2008

    [85]May 13, 2008
    • member since: 04/15/08
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    mandaaa24 wrote:
    cwprincss wrote:
    Season 4 was a joke. After being with Brooke off and on for three years, he all of a sudden has this realization that Peyton is "the one"??? Come on, that was a complete insult to the history of Brucas. Maybe if it would have been approached differently, it would have been better. There was no buildup at all to them all of a sudden being totally in love...just a few episodes before, he was still pining over Brooke. They have completely re-written the history of the entire show to accommodate Leyton.
    HAHAHAHA! Seriously, if that's what you believe you are sadly, sadly mistaken dude. If you had been paying attention for the 3 SEASONS, not years, SEASONS (in reality, it was only a year and a half) then you would know that LP did not under any circumstances whatsoever come out of nowhere. Lucas was infatuated with Peyton during S1, but they decided, for Brooke's benefit to end things. Then during S2, yes they lost touch a bit but they were still friends. In S3, for the beginning of it all Lucas did was spend time with Peyton (he did the summer before the season too) and then unfortunately he got back together with Brooke. (In fact, the episode he got back with her, he left to go be with Peyton while they were making out...now if that doesn't spell devotion {to Peyton}, I don't know what does) But he in no way, shape or form lost touch with Peyton and they were extremely close during that season. Then in S4, BL broke up due to certain circumstances, not all of which were Peyton related...most of the reasons had to do with insecurities and trust issues but lets not go there...and Lucas spent every one of the first 8 episodes with Peyton as her friend, and in TH time, that spells out 8 whole weeks... and then that escalated into their relationship that had never gone away to begin with. There was nothing about LP that insulted BL or their history...they mutually decided that their time was over and it was fun while it lasted but they weren't an epic love story to begin with. So honestly, I don't know where your conclusion about there being no build up came from because, and again I say, if you had been paying attention, you would have noticed every little thing that let us know that LP was indeed, NOT over and would never be.

    And as for the re-writing comment... though I sound like a broken record I must say it, Pay attention and maybe you'll understand it more because you're views are incredibly diluted.


    but lp isn't and wasn't an epic love story either, no matter how much time they had spent together. It was very "friend" time, i don't think any of those moments made them an epic romance or even a strong one.
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  • Avatar of huh920

    huh920

    [86]May 13, 2008
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    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    I know he doesn't reallly mean it, but he is feeling that he does right now...but besides that fact... a friendship/romantic relationship is different than the usual unconditional love of a parent/child relationship. You cant really compare that to a parent/child fight. What I'm saying is, how strong can that romantic relationship be when they constantly are having words destroy this "supposedly great" love they have.

    Well technically LP is not "destroyed". Their relationship is just delayed due to miscommunication. Relationships are hard work and you both have to make sure you are on the same page. Lucas wanted to be a whiny baby(Season 2 Nathan) so he wasnt on the same page as Peyton. I think I can compare LP's relationship to a Parent/Child relationship because it is all love.

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  • Avatar of Jimbob2008

    Jimbob2008

    [87]May 13, 2008
    • member since: 04/15/08
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    huh920 wrote:

    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    I know he doesn't reallly mean it, but he is feeling that he does right now...but besides that fact... a friendship/romantic relationship is different than the usual unconditional love of a parent/child relationship. You cant really compare that to a parent/child fight. What I'm saying is, how strong can that romantic relationship be when they constantly are having words destroy this "supposedly great" love they have.

    Well technically LP is not "destroyed". Their relationship is just delayed due to miscommunication. Relationships are hard work and you both have to make sure you are on the same page. Lucas wanted to be a whiny baby(Season 2 Nathan) so he wasnt on the same page as Peyton. I think I can compare LP's relationship to a Parent/Child relationship because it is all love.

    this "i hate you" scenario was never even part of my original reasons for them not being a legitimate romance, just some added insight. i think its odd and shows how un-epiclike it is for one to say that to another. and tara, their relationship is always delayed from something. its the story of leyton. love waiting and chasing to be together. I just dont see that love as a romantic one, i just see it as more of a friendship one, i dont see the things they've done are clear evidence for the "strong romance" that they are said to have shared. and also relationships are hard, no doubt about that. but why does it seem like a struggle and a battle just to get the two together, i dont see why they two HAVE to be together. Its not even about him being with Brooke or Lindsay. I just don't understand why their relationship is so forced.

    and if you respond, i'll reply tomorrow, going to bed im sleepy lol night night!

    Edited on 05/13/2008 8:31pm
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  • Avatar of lilacouture

    lilacouture

    [88]May 13, 2008
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    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    mandaaa24 wrote:
    cwprincss wrote:
    Season 4 was a joke. After being with Brooke off and on for three years, he all of a sudden has this realization that Peyton is "the one"??? Come on, that was a complete insult to the history of Brucas. Maybe if it would have been approached differently, it would have been better. There was no buildup at all to them all of a sudden being totally in love...just a few episodes before, he was still pining over Brooke. They have completely re-written the history of the entire show to accommodate Leyton.
    HAHAHAHA! Seriously, if that's what you believe you are sadly, sadly mistaken dude. If you had been paying attention for the 3 SEASONS, not years, SEASONS (in reality, it was only a year and a half) then you would know that LP did not under any circumstances whatsoever come out of nowhere. Lucas was infatuated with Peyton during S1, but they decided, for Brooke's benefit to end things. Then during S2, yes they lost touch a bit but they were still friends. In S3, for the beginning of it all Lucas did was spend time with Peyton (he did the summer before the season too) and then unfortunately he got back together with Brooke. (In fact, the episode he got back with her, he left to go be with Peyton while they were making out...now if that doesn't spell devotion {to Peyton}, I don't know what does) But he in no way, shape or form lost touch with Peyton and they were extremely close during that season. Then in S4, BL broke up due to certain circumstances, not all of which were Peyton related...most of the reasons had to do with insecurities and trust issues but lets not go there...and Lucas spent every one of the first 8 episodes with Peyton as her friend, and in TH time, that spells out 8 whole weeks... and then that escalated into their relationship that had never gone away to begin with. There was nothing about LP that insulted BL or their history...they mutually decided that their time was over and it was fun while it lasted but they weren't an epic love story to begin with. So honestly, I don't know where your conclusion about there being no build up came from because, and again I say, if you had been paying attention, you would have noticed every little thing that let us know that LP was indeed, NOT over and would never be.

    And as for the re-writing comment... though I sound like a broken record I must say it, Pay attention and maybe you'll understand it more because you're views are incredibly diluted.


    but lp isn't and wasn't an epic love story either, no matter how much time they had spent together. It was very "friend" time, i don't think any of those moments made them an epic romance or even a strong one.


    OKAY i know you're reading the post but is it making any sense to you? do you know what epic means? epic means they were made for each other but had to go through A LOT to finally find their way together. if that doesn't define LP, i don't know what does. mark literally wrote them for eachother, after 3 seasons of sneaking around, covering up feelings, peyton being SHOT, jeyton, brucas, etc., they found each other. & lost each other again but thats besides the point (lol).
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  • Avatar of huh920

    huh920

    [89]May 13, 2008
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    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    this "i hate you" scenario was never even part of my original reasons for them not being a legitimate romance, just some added insight. i think its odd and shows how un-epiclike it is for one to say that to another. and tara, their relationship is always delayed from something. its the story of leyton. love waiting and chasing to be together. I just dont see that love as a romantic one, i just see it as more of a friendship one, i dont see the things they've done are clear evidence for the "strong romance" that they are said to have shared. and also relationships are hard, no doubt about that. but why does it seem like a struggle and a battle just to get the two together, i dont see why they two HAVE to be together. Its not even about him being with Brooke or Lindsay. I just don't understand why their relationship is so forced.

    and if you respond, i'll reply tomorrow, going to bed im sleepy lol night night!

    I dont understand how is it "un epic like" for Lucas to say he hates Peyton? He is hurting and drunk. It will probably hurt Peyton but he really does not mean it. I dont see why that have to be together but I dont see that for any couple on the show. BL and LP were good but I dont see any big reason why Lucas would have to be with them, Even with Naley. (If anyone wants to debate me about them I would love to because I can hardly stand them.) I dont see what you mean about the friendship thing at all. Sure LP is mostly a chase but I see not about them that is on a just friends level or a sibling level. Last I checked you dont go around kissing your brother.

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  • Avatar of luv2live

    luv2live

    [90]May 13, 2008
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    lilacouture wrote:
    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    mandaaa24 wrote:
    cwprincss wrote:
    Season 4 was a joke. After being with Brooke off and on for three years, he all of a sudden has this realization that Peyton is "the one"??? Come on, that was a complete insult to the history of Brucas. Maybe if it would have been approached differently, it would have been better. There was no buildup at all to them all of a sudden being totally in love...just a few episodes before, he was still pining over Brooke. They have completely re-written the history of the entire show to accommodate Leyton.
    HAHAHAHA! Seriously, if that's what you believe you are sadly, sadly mistaken dude. If you had been paying attention for the 3 SEASONS, not years, SEASONS (in reality, it was only a year and a half) then you would know that LP did not under any circumstances whatsoever come out of nowhere. Lucas was infatuated with Peyton during S1, but they decided, for Brooke's benefit to end things. Then during S2, yes they lost touch a bit but they were still friends. In S3, for the beginning of it all Lucas did was spend time with Peyton (he did the summer before the season too) and then unfortunately he got back together with Brooke. (In fact, the episode he got back with her, he left to go be with Peyton while they were making out...now if that doesn't spell devotion {to Peyton}, I don't know what does) But he in no way, shape or form lost touch with Peyton and they were extremely close during that season. Then in S4, BL broke up due to certain circumstances, not all of which were Peyton related...most of the reasons had to do with insecurities and trust issues but lets not go there...and Lucas spent every one of the first 8 episodes with Peyton as her friend, and in TH time, that spells out 8 whole weeks... and then that escalated into their relationship that had never gone away to begin with. There was nothing about LP that insulted BL or their history...they mutually decided that their time was over and it was fun while it lasted but they weren't an epic love story to begin with. So honestly, I don't know where your conclusion about there being no build up came from because, and again I say, if you had been paying attention, you would have noticed every little thing that let us know that LP was indeed, NOT over and would never be.

    And as for the re-writing comment... though I sound like a broken record I must say it, Pay attention and maybe you'll understand it more because you're views are incredibly diluted.


    but lp isn't and wasn't an epic love story either, no matter how much time they had spent together. It was very "friend" time, i don't think any of those moments made them an epic romance or even a strong one.


    OKAY i know you're reading the post but is it making any sense to you? do you know what epic means? epic means they were made for each other but had to go through A LOT to finally find their way together. if that doesn't define LP, i don't know what does. mark literally wrote them for eachother, after 3 seasons of sneaking around, covering up feelings, peyton being SHOT, jeyton, brucas, etc., they found each other. & lost each other again but thats besides the point (lol).

    Before you start razzing on someone for not knowing the correct definition for a word, you might want to know the correct definition yourself. The definition of epic, according to the Websters dictionary "extending beyond the usual or ordinary especially in size or scope". You took what you thought epic meant and skewed it to LP. Can we say they are an epic relationship really. They've known each other what 6 years. Usually when someones talking epic, they are talking decades. And in all honesty can we say season 1 can really count. I'd say it was more of an infatuation because they didn't really know each other.
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  • Avatar of luv2live

    luv2live

    [91]May 13, 2008
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    Jimbob2008 wrote:

    huh920 wrote:
    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    i agree, no build up at all. it just seems sooo forced sometimes, that they just spring things on the show to make Leyton work. I'm sure this "i hate you" instead of being a justifiable response, is just more words they can make Lucas eat while apologizing to make them "stronger". If it was a great romance, it wouldnt have been said at all.
    Havent you heard the saying there is a thin line between love and hate. Lucas is obviously broken up about Lindsey and said something stupid. He would NEVER say that to her sober. I am not going to hold this IHY against Lucas like some people hold that Chris and Haley kiss against her. One mistake should not be held over someone's head the rest of their lives. Just because Lucas said I hate you to Peyton does not make their love any less.

    of course he said it with alcohol in his system so his judgment is bad. but tara, in vino veritas, in wine there is truth. a drunk heart doesnt lie...he may have normally never said anything like that while sober or even feel that much into it, but regardless, if you have this great romance, that just is not something that would come out, even when you are angry. I've been in plenty of fights with my loved one and you just do not say that, drunk or not. I'm not saying that is the main reason they dont love each other or anything like that, its merely another example of how I don't believe they are a strong romantic couple.

    Funny you should mention the alcohol in his system and the words he spoke. I thought about introducing this as a debate topic. Do people speak more freely and truthfully when intoxicated or not? I go back and forth. Things someone might be hesitant to say other times may come out more; less of a filter in place and probably not caring. At the same time people can just say any old thought that comes into their mind.

    As for the IHY, I'm sure he doesn't truly mean hate, but I'm sure he is frustrated with her in some ways and it's easy to displace his anger onto her. Life with Lindsey was good until Peyton came back to town. He didn't have his past staring him in the face and he was moving forward. That all changed when Peyton returned. You can argue it either way; all his old feelings came back for her and he realized that he still loved her. Or things would have been fine if Peyton could have accepted he moved on and been happy for him and nice to his new girlfriend; kind of like Brooke was. Maybe Brooke's better at hiding or feelings or maybe she cares less. Different topic.

    But the end result is Lucas did say it and I'd say a part of him does think that Peyton is responsible for Lindsey leaving. And it was liquor that assisted him in getting those words/feelings out.

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  • Avatar of Clean0002

    Clean0002

    [92]May 13, 2008
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    It is quite simple really, look at the episode title from this week's episode as to an explanation as to why Lucas told Peyton he hates her. "Hate is Safer than love" and that is definitely the truth is this case! Lucas admiting he loves Peyton and admiting she is the one, and admitting BOTH his books are about her means he would have to put his heart out there once again. Everytime he has done this with Peyton he has been burned so it is understandable he is apprehensive about doing it again. It is always easier to blame somebody else for your mistakes and short comings and again this is the case here. He doesn't hate her and he doesn't blame her, he thinks he does because he wants to believe he does. The reality is he does love her and blames himself but again that means making himself vulnerable and in regards to Peyton that is always a very hard thing for him to do. Once he does accept the truth and what is in his heart he won't be hiding his heart and feelings anymore and will be ready to love Peyton like he always has.
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    luv2live

    [93]May 13, 2008
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    ^^ Hear what your saying but I'd argue that he hides his heart with everyone; and is scared to show it. He did it with Brooke as well. In that regard, Lucas is still very much a teenager. In many ways he never could figure out how to just be friends with these two girls.
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    Clean0002

    [94]May 13, 2008
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    luv2live wrote:
    ^^ Hear what your saying but I'd argue that he hides his heart with everyone; and is scared to show it. He did it with Brooke as well. In that regard, Lucas is still very much a teenager. In many ways he never could figure out how to just be friends with these two girls.

    How do you think he hid his heart with Brooke (I am curious what you mean by this)? I think he did in terms of he could never fully give his heart to her because it was with Peyton and always has been but that's it. The only person he has ever been able to give his whole heart to is Peyton and right now he is hiding it because it is easier. I do agree he is acting immature. Everyone has grown up and yet he is the only one who is lagging behind. And he is friends with Brooke now with no hidden feelings. He can never be just friends with Peyton or they can never be just friends with each other because there will always be underlying feelings there.

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    stellarchick86

    [95]May 14, 2008
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    Personally I always thought that LP was the main couple, along with Naley, and Brucas was always the 2nd couple or something..let me explain. When LP first met, when Peyton broke down, that was like a major scene that people still talk about I mean look at Mandaaa24's sig. Sort of like when Ryan and Marissa first met in The OC, and they were a main couple. Brooke didnt really have that...she looked over and said 'who is that' with that smirk on her face while she was cheering and that was pretty much it. From then on, most people, if not all, were rooting for them to get together, I mean come on the outcast and the popular girl next door- who doesnt? To add more drama to Peyton/her friendship and LP in general, they added the Brooke character (and to have a 'funny/wild' character too) and because she was a main character itd be more interesting of a triangle. Most writers want people to want a certain couple but dont want them to be together ALL the time because thats boring. They do that with like 90% of tv shows. Brucas lasted a long time yes, but they werent the epic couple, Brooke didnt have a novel about her, etc. Then after a few seasons of Brucas and Anna, the writers decide to finally give LP some time and did s4. Then they thought itd be too boring if they were together still for s5 so they added Lindsay because people got tired of the B/L/P triangle especially sicne theyre not in HS anymore, and no one cares about Lindsay so itd be ok. And Im not saying this all because Im not a Brucas fan because between the 2 couples I like Brucas more, probably because I like Brooke more, but I see how it is.
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    Jimbob2008

    [96]May 14, 2008
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    huh920 wrote:
    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    this "i hate you" scenario was never even part of my original reasons for them not being a legitimate romance, just some added insight. i think its odd and shows how un-epiclike it is for one to say that to another. and tara, their relationship is always delayed from something. its the story of leyton. love waiting and chasing to be together. I just dont see that love as a romantic one, i just see it as more of a friendship one, i dont see the things they've done are clear evidence for the "strong romance" that they are said to have shared. and also relationships are hard, no doubt about that. but why does it seem like a struggle and a battle just to get the two together, i dont see why they two HAVE to be together. Its not even about him being with Brooke or Lindsay. I just don't understand why their relationship is so forced.

    and if you respond, i'll reply tomorrow, going to bed im sleepy lol night night!

    I dont understand how is it "un epic like" for Lucas to say he hates Peyton? He is hurting and drunk. It will probably hurt Peyton but he really does not mean it. I dont see why that have to be together but I dont see that for any couple on the show. BL and LP were good but I dont see any big reason why Lucas would have to be with them, Even with Naley. (If anyone wants to debate me about them I would love to because I can hardly stand them.) I dont see what you mean about the friendship thing at all. Sure LP is mostly a chase but I see not about them that is on a just friends level or a sibling level. Last I checked you dont go around kissing your brother.

    Forget the i hate you", i was saying they are un-epic like before this i hate you even came into the picture, i'm saying this supposed romance as a whole, is not an epic romance. I never said they were like siblings, thats the other girl. I said i can see how everything they've gone through make them a great friendship, not a great romance.What I'm saying is they barely have any real meaningful scenes that could be determined as pure "romantic scenes" that would make this strong love be there. I don't see how this determined, strong, supposedly perfect for each other ROMANTIC love came about. They say it a lot, but I don't see the evidence. I see evidence of their friendship. Romantic Love grows from friendship, but you need to have positive romantic interactions for it to happen. "you don't just go, oh me and this great friend have been through so much together. I think they are the great romance of my life." The short time they spend on romantic interactions in season 1 is not enough to carry them the whole show.
    Edited on 05/14/2008 5:14am
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    shae83dtr

    [97]May 14, 2008
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    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    huh920 wrote:
    Jimbob2008 wrote:
    this "i hate you" scenario was never even part of my original reasons for them not being a legitimate romance, just some added insight. i think its odd and shows how un-epiclike it is for one to say that to another. and tara, their relationship is always delayed from something. its the story of leyton. love waiting and chasing to be together. I just dont see that love as a romantic one, i just see it as more of a friendship one, i dont see the things they've done are clear evidence for the "strong romance" that they are said to have shared. and also relationships are hard, no doubt about that. but why does it seem like a struggle and a battle just to get the two together, i dont see why they two HAVE to be together. Its not even about him being with Brooke or Lindsay. I just don't understand why their relationship is so forced.

    and if you respond, i'll reply tomorrow, going to bed im sleepy lol night night!

    I dont understand how is it "un epic like" for Lucas to say he hates Peyton? He is hurting and drunk. It will probably hurt Peyton but he really does not mean it. I dont see why that have to be together but I dont see that for any couple on the show. BL and LP were good but I dont see any big reason why Lucas would have to be with them, Even with Naley. (If anyone wants to debate me about them I would love to because I can hardly stand them.) I dont see what you mean about the friendship thing at all. Sure LP is mostly a chase but I see not about them that is on a just friends level or a sibling level. Last I checked you dont go around kissing your brother.

    Forget the i hate you", i was saying they are un-epic like before this i hate you even came into the picture, i'm saying this supposed romance as a whole, is not an epic romance. I never said they were like siblings, thats the other girl. I said i can see how everything they've gone through make them a great friendship, not a great romance.What I'm saying is they barely have any real meaningful scenes that could be determined as pure "romantic scenes" that would make this strong love be there. I don't see how this determined, strong, supposedly perfect for each other ROMANTIC love came about. They say it a lot, but I don't see the evidence. I see evidence of their friendship. Romantic Love grows from friendship, but you need to have positive romantic interactions for it to happen. "you don't just go, oh me and this great friend have been through so much together. I think they are the great romance of my life." The short time they spend on romantic interactions in season 1 is not enough to carry them the whole show.


    im with jimbob. leyton are more a frienship love than a romantic love, they do a hell of a lot for each other, they are always tehre for eachother, but i have never seen anything to lead me to believe that they went beyond the bounds of frienship, he would do the same for any of the others he just doesnt have to cause they arnt as messed up as peyton, that poor girl needs a break. its just a high school crush that has been stretched to far, i feel like i should believe in their love simply because im told to not because of any strong evidence. i never saw lucas fall in love with peyton like i saw him fall in love with brooke.
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  • Avatar of Jimbob2008

    Jimbob2008

    [98]May 14, 2008
    • member since: 04/15/08
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
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    shae83dtr wrote:
    its just a high school crush that has been stretched to far, i feel like i should believe in their love simply because im told to not because of any strong evidence. i never saw lucas fall in love with peyton like i saw him fall in love with brooke.


    I totally agree with this shae
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  • Avatar of krisi1021

    krisi1021

    [99]May 14, 2008
    • member since: 09/29/06
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 4,770

    Wow wow wow ... so much to respond to! I will try my best to get it all in!

    For all those ranting of how Leyton is so much more of a "friendship" than a "romance" ... get off it!
    Friendship is the basis to any and all good relationships. If you can't establish the common bond and/or values you receive from an honest friendship, you aren't going to make it in a relationship. Try it, and let me know if it works!
    Even in the old days, when marriages were arranged, and you had no choice of whether you loved the one you married or not ... the two people formed a friendship ... a bond ... committed to their values, and became partners through it all.
    Lucas and Peyton established this friendship in S1 ... and yes, I'll admit that prior to that, Lucas was incredibly infatuated with Peyton, but that was before getting to know her. His infatuation changed upon seeing and knowing who she truly was. The girl he was infatuated with had "chicken legs", and was a highschool cheerleader. He came to know Peyton as so much more, and IMO came to love her.
    Likewise, with Peyton ... she kept her distance with Lucas b/c of what she knew him as. She didn't know him, but went based off of impression. Lucas was persistant in becoming a part of her life, and when he saw she was hurting, he confronted it and didn't allow her to push him away. Meanwhile her best friend and boyfriend had no idea what was bothering her, and rather than try and find out, they chose to ignore it and assume she was in a mood. Horrible friends if you ask me.
    Lucas broke through and allowed Peyton to feel comfortable in who she truly was, and didn't alienate her for what she loved to do, like many of her "real" friends did. So, while I'll agree that the infatuation with Peyton started S1, it was the love for Peyton that ended it. By this point they had established the basis to a relationship, and yet still had an intense attraction to one another. If they hadn't truly connected, Peyton wouldn't have been so hurt when Lucas got drunk and slept with Nikki. She had opened up, and began trusting him. Lucas in turn had trusted Peyton, and when she didn't show signs of wanting what he wanted, he was hurt, and ran to the nearest distraction.

    I'm getting tired of the whole IHY argument.
    Yes, a drunken mind speaks a sober heart, and I honestly do believe that, but at the same time, thoughts and ideals may become completely misconstrued in a drunken state. There's no way to ever truly be certain.
    IMO, Lucas does blame his actions on Peyton's return to Tree Hill. While sober and clear headed he may not be able to admit it, I think he truly finds fault in Peyton for all that has occurred.
    Had Peyton not come back to Tree Hill, Lucas' feelings wouldn't have been tested, or compromised. He could've gone on living blind, in ignorant bliss, 100% he had overcome his history with Peyton and moved on.
    Peyton returning did nothing more than prove to him, and everyone else, that he has yet to leave Peyton in his past. He still loves her, and hasn't received closure from their breakup.
    I don't think an argument of him having moved on is near sensible, considering what we've seen this season.
    Despite it all, Lucas said he hates Peyton and in a round about way, blamed her for all that has happened in his life since her return to Tree Hill. He was hurt by her ... in a drunken state of mind your inhibitions are lowered, and quite frankly you will resort to childish remarks. I don't think he truly hates her ... in fact I think he still loves her, which is enabling him to express his pain so passionately. Although, I still hated that scene. It was empty, and bland, and had no feeling behind it. I'm hoping that's just written up to CMM's acting, rather than how they wanted the scene portrayed.

    I will agree with luv2live on the definition of epic. It also can mean "very imposing or impressive".
    When I think of epic, I think of something that takes time. I don't think you can look at a relationship of 2 years, or less ... or more for that matter, and say, "Wow, this is an epic love". I think the title is given after their "story" so to speak. I think it's a tale, and test of time. Leyton has NEVER had a highschool romance, or at least not one that was suitable of that title.
    Their relationship has always been deeper than that. If anyone had a highschool romance, it would be Brucas. They didn't have ANY foundation to their relationship. They never gained trust in one another, and despite Lucas' best efforts, he was never able to open up to her. The same goes for Brooke. She couldn't trust Lucas enough, or their love enough, to see that Lucas was there for the long haul, which makes sense, b/c he wasn't. He did what Brooke asked of him, never going above and beyond. She said fight for me, and he fought b/c he felt it was what he was supposed to do. She made him jump through hoops to prove his devotion to her in S3, all to get drunk and sleep with another guy. If she truly trusted his love for her, then she wouldn't have had to resort to big displays of affection, or games, or antics. Their relationship was fun, and nothing more. They didn't have an understanding, in fact they didn't even understand one another. Sure, it was pretty from the outside, and appeared a work of art, but on the inside it was empty and bleak. They didn't have trust or honesty. Instead their relationship held confusion, jealousy, barriers, and walls.

    I don't know what a meant to be love would entail ... I don't even know how you could characterize an epic love. I think it's something you honestly feel. Something that is acquired over time. I think many things are all in the eye of the beholder. It's what each individual longs for and desires. IMO, Lucas and Peyton are amazing together. They not only feed off of one another, and their love together, but they compliment one another.

    One last thing ... I'm genuinely curious to know examples of a romantic love Jimbob. I mean, do you consider Brucas to have that romantic aura to their relationship???? I'm truly curious. All Brucas had were big gestures, fights, and constant reassurance of their love. The only reason you would have to continuously protest your love for another is b/c their is too much doubt clouding either's mind. You can't go anywhere in a relationship if you can't trust so much as the feelings of the other person.

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    Jimbob2008

    [100]May 14, 2008
    • member since: 04/15/08
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 278
    krisi1021 wrote:
    One last thing ... I'm genuinely curious to know examples of a romantic love Jimbob. I mean, do you consider Brucas to have that romantic aura to their relationship???? I'm truly curious. All Brucas had were big gestures, fights, and constant reassurance of their love. The only reason you would have to continuously protest your love for another is b/c their is too much doubt clouding either's mind. You can't go anywhere in a relationship if you can't trust so much as the feelings of the other person.


    krisi1021 I NEVER said that Brucas was an epic romance either. I don't believe they are a great true romance either, definately not. I'm not really sure why you're mentioning it, because I didn't. My thoughts on Leyton being a romantic couple has nothing to do with Brucas.

    But I noticed you're comparing Leyton a little to an arranged marriage where they didn't even know the person? Seems like a strange analogy to me. I'm saying they never showed that growth of a romantic love. Its like we were just TOLD that they were this great big romance without SEEING any of the steps that got them there. All the steps they've taken have seemed very friend significant to me.

    I agree with shae in the sense that even tho Brucas was not even close to being a great romance you could still see how their romantic affections were growing with each other, no matter how much doubt and jealousy they did have. Their big gestures as you say are comparable to Lucas saving Peyton in my opinion, very sweet, very caring, but not the root and reasons for real romance.
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