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Debate Thread - anything and everything: Topic: Shoulda Coulda Woulda

  • Avatar of luv2live

    luv2live

    [161]May 16, 2008
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    I've got a new one. Do you think Brooke and Peyton's friendship is stronger pre or post the cheating and sex tape? Is it stronger pre or post Lucas? I go back and forth on how much damage or good he's done these girls. Did he create the cracks or where they already there?
    Edited on 05/16/2008 5:08pm
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  • Avatar of lovingpizonica

    lovingpizonica

    [162]May 16, 2008
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    chosenchic wrote:

    Well the last couple of pages were certainly interesting but yeah moving on...

    New topic: the Brooke/Nathan sextape. A true symbol of B/P's fractured friendship (in the sense that they've done some truly deplorable things to each other) or merely a writer's ploy to even the playing field between Brooke and Peyton? Discuss.



    There was actually an interview with Chad Fiveash, who is one of the show's story editors, done last year that settled this question. He basically said that Mark and the other writers were surprised by the fallout against Peyton at the end of Season 3 and Mark came forward with this idea halfway through Season 4 as a way to reunite the girls. As one might see, Brooke's behavior in Season 4 was a drastic departure from her personality mid-Season 1 and up, which was the initial way to lead to a reunion, but it wasn't enough. There wasn't a lot of initial support for the idea, but the network really loved it, so they ran with it.

    So, in essence, it was a way to get BP back together, not to even the field, so to speak. He admitted that the action was out of character for Brooke, but that the only out of character factor was that she slept with Nathan; if it had been any other person, it would have been very IN character.

    I'm trying to find the interview now and I will post it if I can. It was one of those telephone press conference thingies.
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  • Avatar of Chick94

    Chick94

    [163]May 16, 2008
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    I'm not understanding. Brooke doing that with Nathan was very in character for her pre-S1 self, surely she'd never do this AFTER her development as a character though out the seasons and the only reason why this seemed believable was because this was a Brooke we never knew but had a glimpse of at the start of S1. It was very much in Brooke's character to drink and sleep around and not remember as the Boy Toy episode showed where she was making out with a guy who remembered her but she didnt remember.
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    lovingpizonica

    [164]May 16, 2008
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    Apparently, Fiveash thinks that the only thing that was out of character was her sleeping with Nathan, not the fact that she drunkenly made a sex tape. After all, the whole scenario almost entirely invalidated her as a character; after making such a big deal, and twice, about Peyton's disloyalty, having a similar skeleton in her closet made her a hypocrite and cast a shadow over her own pain at her best friend's infidelity. One of Brooke's most identifiable character traits is her loyalty, which is why the sex tape with Nathan was out of character. The fact that it was created last minute is also an indication that it wasn't well-prepared.

    The reason such an idea makes perfect sense to me, personally, is because of what the last-minute sex tape did to Brooke as a character. Can anyone watch S1 or S3 now and actually feel truly, deeply sorry for Brooke in those situations? Probably not, but that's only because people now place the sex tape on the time line BEFORE any of the questionable things Peyton did and are oftentimes able to justify what happens to her because of it. She is no longer a victim in a situation that directly victimized her; she's someone who's committed a similar crime finally getting her due. Anytime a situation is created that predates the story's official sequence of events and completely rewrites a character's motivations is bad writing, in my opinion.
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  • Avatar of indigorain_

    indigorain_

    [165]May 16, 2008
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    lovingpizonica wrote:
    Apparently, Fiveash thinks that the only thing that was out of character was her sleeping with Nathan, not the fact that she drunkenly made a tape. After all, the whole scenario almost entirely invalidated her as a character; after making such a big deal, and twice, about Peyton's disloyalty, having a similar skeleton in her closet made her a hypocrite and cast a shadow over her own pain at her best friend's infidelity. One of Brooke's most identifiable character traits is her loyalty, which is why the tape with Nathan was out of character. The fact that it was created last minute is also an indication that it wasn't well-prepared.

    The reason such an idea makes perfect sense to me, personally, is because of what the last-minute tape did to Brooke as a character. Can anyone watch S1 or S3 now and actually feel truly, deeply sorry for Brooke in those situations? Probably not, but that's only because people now place the tape on the time line BEFORE any of the questionable things Peyton did and are oftentimes able to justify what happens to her because of it. She is no longer a victim in a situation that directly victimized her; she's someone who's committed a similar crime finally getting her due. Anytime a situation is created that predates the story's official sequence of events and completely rewrites a character's motivations is bad writing, in my opinion.


    He he Fiveash is a funny name.

    I agree. I never really liked Brooke, I mean I understood her feelings towards Lucas and Peyton when they cheated on her, but still, it took her too long to forgive them, especially Peyton the second time, IMHO. With that being said, I really liked the whole tape thing. I felt that it evened te playing field, so to speak, because a lot of the Brooke/Brucas fans really d Peyton at the time (I think) and I felt that it showed that Brooke isn't ALWAYS the poor defenceless victim that everyone picked on, and that she too, is human, with skeletons of her own.

    It's late, and I rambled. Sorry.

    I have a pondry though: Does anyone else think that Lindsey was like Emily from Friends?
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  • Avatar of shae83dtr

    shae83dtr

    [166]May 17, 2008
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    lovingpizonica wrote:
    Apparently, Fiveash thinks that the only thing that was out of character was her sleeping with Nathan, not the fact that she drunkenly made a sex tape. After all, the whole scenario almost entirely invalidated her as a character; after making such a big deal, and twice, about Peyton's disloyalty, having a similar skeleton in her closet made her a hypocrite and cast a shadow over her own pain at her best friend's infidelity. One of Brooke's most identifiable character traits is her loyalty, which is why the sex tape with Nathan was out of character. The fact that it was created last minute is also an indication that it wasn't well-prepared.

    The reason such an idea makes perfect sense to me, personally, is because of what the last-minute sex tape did to Brooke as a character. Can anyone watch S1 or S3 now and actually feel truly, deeply sorry for Brooke in those situations? Probably not, but that's only because people now place the sex tape on the time line BEFORE any of the questionable things Peyton did and are oftentimes able to justify what happens to her because of it. She is no longer a victim in a situation that directly victimized her; she's someone who's committed a similar crime finally getting her due. Anytime a situation is created that predates the story's official sequence of events and completely rewrites a character's motivations is bad writing, in my opinion.


    thats excatly why i hate the sex tape story line and why i think its pathetic. Brooke's reaction in previous seasons was with her under the impression that she would NEVER do that to a friend, its once again the writers rewriting history to fit what they want not caring that its not true to the character.

    and CHICK i do tend to love breyton fights, its my guilty pleasure, i think its just the emotion the two actresses put into the scenes and the way they act it, they shine when they fight, lets face it you fight like mad with the people you love the most, it shows you care. and one of my all time favourite scenes is the Breyton fight in the season 3 finale, when sophia slams that door, brillaint acting, and the breyton fight season four outside peytons house, i love that too, it cracks me up.
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  • Avatar of HCothlove1227

    HCothlove1227

    [167]May 17, 2008
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    indigorain_ wrote:

    I never really liked Brooke, I mean I understood her feelings towards Lucas and Peyton when they cheated on her, but still, it took her too long to forgive them, especially Peyton the second time, IMHO. With that being said, I really liked the whole tape thing. I felt that it evened te playing field, so to speak
    I have a pondry though: Does anyone else think that Lindsey was like Emily from Friends?

    Yes yes yes! Lindsey= Emily =unwanted= unnecessary. I like that parallell.. hehe

    anyway, as for your point:


    TOo long to forgive? I'm sorry, but imo, it wasn't like she was going to forgive her in a day or two. I think she took as much time as was needed and I still have a lot of respect for her, because I don't know if I could have forgiven Peyton for what she did. I didn't think the sex tape evened the playing field because:

    1. Peyton was sober when she cheated with Lucas. Brooke was not.

    2. Peyton and Nathan had broken up when Brooke cheated. And alright, I know they werent technically broken up because they broke up so many times,but still, it isn't like they were in a committed 3 month relationship with no break ups at all like brooke and lucas were.

    3. Brooke didn't love Nathan. Okay, hear me out: Peyton was in love with Lucas, and while that may justify it for her, it makes it even worse for Brooke. Love takes time to develop, and this means that Peyton had had those feelings for Luke for a while, and she hadn't told Brooke about it, you know, before things got serious. In a way, these feelings were betraying Brooke even more because this had been going on behind her back for a while. And also, their hook up wasn't a one night thing. They kissed in the library, and they kissed outside the locker rooms, it happened several times. Brooke with nathan was a one time thing with ZERO feelings involved because CLEARLY brooke wasn't in love with Nathan.

    I definitely rambled a lot, but let me make myself clear: in NO WAY am i justifying what Brooke did. IT was horrible and a huge betrayal of their friendship. But all I am saying is that because it happened before Peyton cheated with Lucas on Brooke, doesn't mean that Peytons cheating was alright, because Brooke did it first. It just doesn't work like that.
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  • Avatar of cwprincss

    cwprincss

    [168]May 17, 2008
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    If it were me, I would have done a lot more to Peyton for the pain she caused by cheating with Lucas not once but twice. Brooke didn't deserve that! For anyone who has been cheated on with your boyfriend or even spouse with best friend would understand that statement. That happened to me and it hurts you down to your soul. I am surprised that Brooke forgave both of them at all. Maybe if they were to have reunited this season after being apart for so long and building it back up this season rather than last season, it would have been more realistic. I definitely would not be supportive of it like Brooke has been.
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  • Avatar of huh920

    huh920

    [169]May 17, 2008
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    cwprincss wrote:
    If it were me, I would have done a lot more to Peyton for the pain she caused by cheating with Lucas not once but twice. Brooke didn't deserve that! For anyone who has been cheated on with your boyfriend or even spouse with best friend would understand that statement. That happened to me and it hurts you down to your soul. I am surprised that Brooke forgave both of them at all. Maybe if they were to have reunited this season after being apart for so long and building it back up this season rather than last season, it would have been more realistic. I definitely would not be supportive of it like Brooke has been.


    Yes I know what you mean but I guess that shows how great a person Brooke is. I honestly dont even take the sex tape seriously. A cheap shot by the writers to bring Brooke down to Peyton's level. Sure it was a good plot twist but it made no sense since Brooke would have shown some signs of sympathy towards Peyton because she had done something just as bad. As a Brucas fan it did not help me like Peyton or Leyton more, it actually made me dislike them more.

    As for Leyton's cheating in season 1, I dont know if it made Brooke and Peyton stronger after. In season 1 we were suppose to get the feeling they were such great friends but Peyton seemed willing to give that all up for Lucas. Besides even though the whole season 1 thing was complicated I dont believe that Lucas and Peyton just needed to be with each other. I mean at that age the things that runs your mind is your hormones. If Peyton was thinking with her mind and not another body part she would have thought about how Brooke felt.

    The reason I am saying Peyton more than Lucas is because Peyton has been her best friend since they were like 10. I would expect a lot more from my best friend then a guy I am dating. I felt Peyton got everything she deserved in seasons 1 and 3.
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  • Avatar of degrassi_lover

    degrassi_lover

    [170]May 17, 2008
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    I agree, thats one of the things I hated about the "sex tape". Yes, it was a really good episode(Prom Night at Haters High was fabulous) but the fact the sex tape took place years before was just ridiculous. Another thing I don't understand is how people can say Brathan's hook up was like cheating.. I'm sorry but it isn't..

    Leyton in S1 was cheating. I know Brathan hooked up after Neyton broke up, but they weren't in a relationship anymore(on or off).

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    cwprincss

    [171]May 17, 2008
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    I completely agree with you. Peyton got what she deserved. She should have put Brooke ahead of everything else instead of pursuing Lucas. You just don't do that to friends, I don't care what the circumstances are. The best scene was when Brooke slapped her across the face and called her a back stabbing b****.

    The sex video was a cheap shot. I don't know what the writers were trying to do with that and I don't really care, it was stupid. It affected more than just Peyton, it affected Naley and that was just wrong.

    I don't think the friendship with Breyton has been as strong as the first season. You just don't get back to a BFF situation after the kind of hurt Peyton inflicted on her. No matter if she forgives or not, that pain never fully goes away.

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    HCothlove1227

    [172]May 17, 2008
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    cwprincss wrote:

    I don't think the friendship with Breyton has been as strong as the first season. You just don't get back to a BFF situation after the kind of hurt Peyton inflicted on her. No matter if she forgives or not, that pain never fully goes away.


    Now, this is where I disagree. Brooke, as does Peyton, has a huge heart, and forgave her best friend TWICE after the backstabbing took place. She was able to deal with what had happened, realize that everyone makes mistakes, and after letting Peyton suffer for a little while, she took her back. I have to say that I feel as though this season, their friendship is stronger than ever. Brooke came back for Peyton, she knew she needed her and she was there without any hesitation. Peyton stood up to Brooke's mom, and helped Brooke realize what a horrible biznatchh Victoria was being, and helped her through the pain when she fired her. Brooke was there for Peyton after Lucas proposed to Lindsey. Peyton is there for Brooke with the baby every step of the way. I feel that their friendship is no longer a high school girl BFF relationship, it is a deep, meaningful, no strings attached friendship that has proven to be stronger than we had all thought throughout seasons 1-4.
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  • Avatar of huh920

    huh920

    [173]May 17, 2008
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    Yes I agree. I am not sure if the Lucas thing and the cheating helped or hurt the situation but season 5 Breyton is stronger than ever. They are family now despite everything. No one would think they would be the most stable relationship on the show(this season) but they are. Brooke and Peyton both treated each other like dirt but they overcame it. I LOVE their friendship this season.
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    cwprincss

    [174]May 17, 2008
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    I'll admin their friendship has been nice this season, but what happens if Lucas somehow picks Brooke or Peyton finds out that after he proposed to her, he left and went to see Brooke and kissed her?? We are going to have the triangle all over again like in high school!! Where will the friendship go then?
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  • Avatar of huh920

    huh920

    [175]May 17, 2008
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    cwprincss wrote:
    I'll admin their friendship has been nice this season, but what happens if Lucas somehow picks Brooke or Peyton finds out that after he proposed to her, he left and went to see Brooke and kissed her?? We are going to have the triangle all over again like in high school!! Where will the friendship go then?


    We can only hope the writers dont go that route again. If they do we can hope that their friendship wont be destroyed by Lucas Scott again. It really seems that Brooke has moved on. I think once Lucas finally picks who he wants to be with, Breyton will be able to survuve. I think Brooke and Peyton just want each other to be happy. So if Lucas picks Brooke and she still has feelings for him sure Peyton would be hurt but eventually she will come around and move on just like if Lucas picked Peyton Brooke would do the same.
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  • Avatar of cwprincss

    cwprincss

    [176]May 17, 2008
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    Next question...with October Road cancelled and the possibility of a Jake return, how do you think it will impact the Brooke/Lucas/Peyton story. I have always love Jake with Peyton, but that's my opinion.
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    degrassi_lover

    [177]May 17, 2008
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    October Road is cancelled? Wow, I didn't know that?
    Like most posters have already stated, Peyton is very much in love with Lucas. And although I find it ridiculous she continues fighting for him, a Jeyton reunion wouldn't work out.

    If Jake were to return I would love it if they reunited, Jake is the guy she should be with. He made her happy and was truly in love with her. If Lucas wasn't in the way, I'm totally keen but as of now.. It seems out of the question..

    But I want Jake to return.

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    Chick94

    [178]May 17, 2008
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    HCothlove1227 wrote:
    Now, this is where I disagree. Brooke, as does Peyton, has a huge heart, and forgave her best friend TWICE after the backstabbing took place. She was able to deal with what had happened, realize that everyone makes mistakes, and after letting Peyton suffer for a little while, she took her back. I have to say that I feel as though this season, their friendship is stronger than ever. Brooke came back for Peyton, she knew she needed her and she was there without any hesitation. Peyton stood up to Brooke's mom, and helped Brooke realize what a horrible biznatchh Victoria was being, and helped her through the pain when she fired her. Brooke was there for Peyton after Lucas proposed to Lindsey. Peyton is there for Brooke with the baby every step of the way. I feel that their friendship is no longer a high school girl BFF relationship, it is a deep, meaningful, no strings attached friendship that has proven to be stronger than we had all thought throughout seasons 1-4.

    Well said. I couldnt agree more.

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    lovingpizonica

    [179]May 17, 2008
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    Coming from someone who thinks Jake was the best guy ever, and who loved Jeyton beyond belief, I know that a relationship between the two wouldn't work out in the end because, while Jake truly loved Peyton, Peyton never truly loved him in return. The two needed each other at one point, but they've moved on, and it's hopefully for the best. You don't have any idea how much it pains me to say that, but the truth is that bringing Jake back now as a love interest would only end in him being hurt. Again. Jake is the male Brooke; he has a tendency to love the wrong person. I would, however, love to at least hear information about him, and about Jenny.
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    lovingpizonica

    [180]May 17, 2008
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    Chick94 wrote:

    HCothlove1227 wrote:
    Now, this is where I disagree. Brooke, as does Peyton, has a huge heart, and forgave her best friend TWICE after the backstabbing took place. She was able to deal with what had happened, realize that everyone makes mistakes, and after letting Peyton suffer for a little while, she took her back. I have to say that I feel as though this season, their friendship is stronger than ever. Brooke came back for Peyton, she knew she needed her and she was there without any hesitation. Peyton stood up to Brooke's mom, and helped Brooke realize what a horrible biznatchh Victoria was being, and helped her through the pain when she fired her. Brooke was there for Peyton after Lucas proposed to Lindsey. Peyton is there for Brooke with the baby every step of the way. I feel that their friendship is no longer a high school girl BFF relationship, it is a deep, meaningful, no strings attached friendship that has proven to be stronger than we had all thought throughout seasons 1-4.

    Well said. I couldnt agree more.



    I agree as well. Beautifully said.
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