Reaper Forums

The CW (ended 2009)

Sam's Deal with the Devil-Confused?

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    S-Shield

    [1]Apr 2, 2009
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    I'm a little confused about the situation on Reaper now. Sam is the Devil's son, right? And yet Sam and the Devil keep talking about the deal Sam's dad made to sell Sam's soul to the Devil.

    But if Mr. Oliver isn't Sam's real dad, then what authority did he have to sell Sam's soul, especially back to his real father, the Devil?

    Sam keeps talking about ways to get out of his deal with the Devil, but what deal? I could kind of undestand if the Devil owned Sam's soul since he was his son, but that seems like that would be a lot trickier to get out of than just a contract.

    This last episode made it seem like there was more to the story than just simply that the Devil is Sam's father, but that still doesn't explain why Sam acts alternately like the Devil is his dad and yet he is still bound by the deal his fake dad made.

    Anybody else confused, or am I just stupid?

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  • Avatar of BlueSunflower

    BlueSunflower

    [2]Apr 3, 2009
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    You're not confused, it's a massive plothole - one of a great many at this point.
    Edited on 04/03/2009 2:11am
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    basenji529

    [3]Apr 3, 2009
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    BlueSunflower wrote:
    You're not confused, it's a massive plothole - one of a great many at this point.

    Which is why it's circling the drain.

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    LexxArc

    [4]Apr 8, 2009
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    Just because the Devil says so doesn't have to mean it's true ;-)
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    usernr-1337

    [5]Apr 9, 2009
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    the devil owning sam's soul was a cover up and now it's impossible to tell whether devil owns Sam's soul or not without seeing the contract but it would be logical if he would own it. the thing is sam can probably get his soul back but im not sure if it will help him in any way. apparently sam doesn't know if you can get into haven if you are the devils son but it seems like he is hoping that he can because he is trying to get his soul back so there is even a little chance...

    :
    And yet Sam and the Devil keep talking about the deal Sam's dad made to sell Sam's soul to the Devil.
    well apparently the deal included that the devil owns Sam's soul... the thing that is confusing is that they don't mention that sam is the devil's son in their regular conversations, it's like sam's ignoring that part and hoping that it wont matter when the time will come to go into the light

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    kanniballl

    [6]Apr 10, 2009
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    S-Shield wrote:

    I'm a little confused about the situation on Reaper now. Sam is the Devil's son, right? And yet Sam and the Devil keep talking about the deal Sam's dad made to sell Sam's soul to the Devil.

    But if Mr. Oliver isn't Sam's real dad, then what authority did he have to sell Sam's soul, especially back to his real father, the Devil?

    You're forgetting Sam's mother, who would've died had Sam chose not to honor the Devil's job. She could've made the deal, and that she agreed to sire the son in exchange for the husband's life (assuming what we know is 100% true). The fact that it was her life tied to Sam's decision is odd.

    As far as the whole "Devil's Son" thing, I still don't know if it's 100% true. It's possible that it was a mistake made by the demons and the Devil is just capitalizing on it.

    I still hold onto hope that Sam is one of those 1/2 angel children that Ben's new girlfriend told him about and Sam's mother (an angel) made a deal to protect her husband from God's wrath.

    Meanwhile the devil is either trying to convert a 1/2 angel's soul to evil (which is probably very very bad) or otherwise just having fun making the world think that Sam is his son. As the Devil loved God, it's possible he has genuine affection for a child of an angel, hence the fatherly advice and such.

    After all:

    - They kind of brought up the whole 1/2 angel, vengful God thing for no reason.

    - A newly-made Angel saved Sam from being buried.

    - Sam isn't showing evil tendencies like his supposed 1/2 brother.

    - Sam's father sounds like there's something Sam still needs to know about the contract, but is forbidden from speaking of it.

    I'm not saying he's NOT the son of the devil, I'm just saying there's still a possibility that he's not. The Devil only "confirmed" it after Sam was laying it on pretty thick that he wanted to play the nepitism card.

    Edited on 04/10/2009 10:50am
    Edited 2 total times.
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    usernr-1337

    [7]Apr 10, 2009
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    kanniballl, i think it's a good thing that creators left... a job opened and you are a prefect candidate! thats some interesting stuff you wrote there
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    Inuyaruto

    [8]Apr 11, 2009
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    well It makes sense if you think about it like this. (taken from what little we know of the contract) Sam's Father (Mr Oliver) made a deal with the Devil that the yet unconceived child of him and Sam's mother (Mrs Oliver) would have its soul forfeited in exchange for Mr Olivers continued living. In other words as long as Mr Oliver fathered or Mrs Oliver mothered the child (or possibly just if they were legally parents of the child), its soul would be owned by the devil when said child reached 21 years of age. Knowing this the devil did a Virgin Mary on their asses and gave Mrs Oliver the anti-Christ to give birth to, therefore creating a superhuman slave that the Devil could manipulate with no problems. The reason for the soul-owning slave stuff is probably explainable by the Devils other son being a douche and possibly his experience in the past with rebellious son's (as he said once in season 2 that despite fathering many children, none of them had brought about the apocalypse) so maybe he is experimenting with different methods of raising his children to see which is most effective in creating THE ANTICHRIST.
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    shingui5

    [9]Apr 12, 2009
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    Wait what? Sam's Mother is an angel?

    or is that just hoping kannibal?

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  • Avatar of Inuyaruto

    Inuyaruto

    [10]Apr 12, 2009
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    Sam's Mother appears to be human, but its possible she's an angel. However none of this has been proved. If that turned out to be true then that might make Sam 1/2 Angel 1/2 Demon which would be too awesome for words...
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  • Avatar of kanniballl

    kanniballl

    [11]Apr 13, 2009
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    shingui5 wrote:

    Wait what? Sam's Mother is an angel?

    or is that just hoping kannibal?

    Just my hope / theory as a plot twist. There hasn't been anything to suggest it on camera.

    I just thought it was odd that the mother was tied to the contract with her life, and that Ben's girlfriend decides to throw a bit of in-show mythology at the fans for no obvious reason.

    And that in a way, the mythology parallels their situation: that God would smite down the Angel's spouse for daring to fall in love with a mortal, and the deal was made to save Mr Oliver from some unknown death but nobody is allowed to talk about it.

    Edited on 04/13/2009 7:35am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of hellgoth

    hellgoth

    [12]Apr 15, 2009
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    Right here we go, the dad sold the soul of his first born child (sam) tried to avoid having a child but got tricked by the devil hence the devil is sams dad, the reason the devil threatened to kill sams mum if he didnt do his bidding was because as we recently found out his dad cant die so total waste of time threatening his father with death, see its all clear now, as far as his mum being an angel i dont believe it, i reckon thats just to keep us watching.
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  • Avatar of GumDispenser

    GumDispenser

    [13]Apr 15, 2009
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    If Mr. Oliver is the real father, then the contract is valid

    If The Devil is the real father, then the contract is invalid, but the devil doesn't need a contract to own the soul of HIS SON.

    So, what plot hole are we talking about here hmmm?

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    GumDispenser

    [14]Apr 15, 2009
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    I'm rewatching Season 1 and I'm at the part where he receives the huge book for the contract and he's told to sign and initial documents for like 3 hours.

    Why was the contract so huge while his parents kept their copy in a simple document envelope?

    I'm thinking that the original contract was void, hence is turned to ashes in the document envelope his parents had. It was void because the WIFE'S FIRST BORN was the devil's child.

    But then the devil tricked him in signing a bunch of documents that he didnt bother reading (took 3 hours to sign everything by going really fast).

    See where I'm going?

    Point is, the contract story is long from over.
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  • Avatar of kanniballl

    kanniballl

    [15]Apr 16, 2009
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    GumDispenser wrote:
    Point is, the contract story is long from over.

    I'd imagine there's definitely more to the story, though if the show does end this season we may never get a true answer. They might just end it with us just assuming everything is kosher as-is.

    Sure, if we take everything at face value then there is no mystery but just a couple of rough edges to the story. But we only have the word of the Devil (if that counts for anything) and the poor detective skills of the demons. Face it, the demons kind of jumped to a conclusion with little proof. The devil likes Sam, pages are torn from the contract, and Sam has "powers."

    But there are some hints and strange occurences that lead us to believe there's more going on. Perhaps a multi-season arch with more and more info being revealed. But as I said, if the show is done then it's over.

    - What is it that Mr Oliver wants to tell Sam, but is forbidden?
    The devil's lying, there's more to the story, etc.

    - Why would Mrs Oliver hide the fact that Sam's father didn't die after being buried alive?
    He already knows about a deal with the Devil, and we've seen that they're legally allowed to tell Sam that immortality was the prize. So why make Sam think the father was dead because him?

    - Did we ever learn how Mr Oliver knew they were going to bury / attack Sam?
    We might've learned it but I forget.

    - Why did the angel step in to save Sam, especially if he's a spawn of the devil?
    Demons apparently kill and attack humans all of the time. Even the "nice" demons from the rebellion weren't that nice.
    Unless it was because he still thought of Sam as a friend.

    - What prompted Mr and Mrs Oliver to talk in the circle.
    What could they need to talk about that they didn't want the Devil to know?

    - Where is Mrs Oliver?
    There has to be more to her not wanting to be seen than she's angry at Mr Oliver, unless the actress just wanted off the show.

    - If the deal was for Mr Oliver's life, why would the mother be on the hook?
    If Sam wouldn't accept it, then the deal would be invalid and the Father would have to give up his immortality. I'd imagine it's within the Devil's power to take back a gift if a contract is broken by the mortals.
    Unless Mrs Oliver physically made the dealon Mr Oliver's behalf. IE he wason his death bed and she summoned him.

    Edited on 04/16/2009 7:03am
    Edited 6 total times.
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  • Avatar of S-Shield

    S-Shield

    [16]Apr 19, 2009
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    I'm talking about Sam. From Sam's perspective, his parents sold his soul to the Devil, and then he finds out the Devil is his dad, so why hasn't he questioned the validity of the contract?

    My point is that Sam alternately acts like he's the Devil's son, and yet still bound by the deal his fake "parents" made.

    If there is some super-huge conspiracy going on where both are still valid, that's cool, but Sam doesn't know any of that, so he shouldn't be acting like does.

    If it really has more to do with his mother, again, that's cool. But at this point, only the writers would know that, not Sam. So he shouldn't be acting on it.

    Sam keeps acting like that guy who escaped from Hell and is working at the cemetary can tell him how to get out of his contract with the Devil. But what contract? If the Devil owns Sam because he's his father, that's not a contract. That would be harder to get out of. If the contract is still in play, how could two "fakers" sell his soul back to his real father?

    My main point is why hasn't Sam questioned the fundamental structure of the show, which is his relatioship with the Devil. At this point, he should be asking if his mother is his real mother, if not, who is? Is the contract still valid, if so, why? And yet he keeps walking around perfectly content with the fact that his fake parents sold his soul to his real father. That makes no sense.

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    S-Shield

    [17]Apr 19, 2009
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    Here, let me try to express my point more clearly with an example:

    "Bill finds out that his father has a genetic disease that will cripple him. The disease is only passed from father to son, and there is a 100% chance Bill will get it.

    Bill then finds out he's adopted. He's not related to his father in any way."

    Now, a logical person reconciles these two points and says "Since I'm adopted, I won't get that disease."

    But Sam has yet to reconcile these two facts. He's acting like he knows he's adopted AND YET he still thinks he's going to get his adopted father's genetic-exclusive disease.

    That's the plot hole I'm talking about. That's what bothers me.

    Edited on 04/19/2009 9:01am
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    kanniballl

    [18]Apr 21, 2009
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    S-Shield wrote:

    Here, let me try to express my point more clearly with an example:

    "Bill finds out that his father has a genetic disease that will cripple him. The disease is only passed from father to son, and there is a 100% chance Bill will get it.

    Bill then finds out he's adopted. He's not related to his father in any way."

    Now, a logical person reconciles these two points and says "Since I'm adopted, I won't get that disease."

    But Sam has yet to reconcile these two facts. He's acting like he knows he's adopted AND YET he still thinks he's going to get his adopted father's genetic-exclusive disease.

    That's the plot hole I'm talking about. That's what bothers me.

    While I don't argue with your conclusion, it could also be that per Sam's conversations with the Devil, his only real day-to-day obligations come from the contract, and not his heritage. Right now, his daily dangers are probably a larger concern than his eventually ushering the apocalypse.

    The devil has demonstrated that people have free will or choice; that's one of the things he preys upon. A contract takes away that choice.

    So far it is suggested that Sam is only obligated to follow the Devil's every order because of the contract; since the "revelation" (if it's true) the Devil hasn't once said "You have no choice, you must do what I say because you're my son." The most he has said is that it's his destiny to be evil and rule by his side, as he's Sam's father.

    It's quite possible that without the contract, the devil might leave him alone as another one of his failed offspring. So far, the devil has only been shown screwing directly with people that have signed a contract that a) didn't hold up their bargain or b) their time was running up. The only other times I can recall are when he's trying to seduce people into sinning or felt Andi was getting in the way of Sam's contractural obligations.

    Morgan is another story, if he wants all of the toys and a position of power then we has to do with the Devil asks... ie go hunting with Sam.

    So without a contract he might be able to tempt Sam but it's possible he couldn't just force him to be a Reaper. In any case, it's one less hook the Devil has on him.

    So assuming being the Devil's son doesn't make him a slave as well, a more apt analogy might be

    - An elderly couple is in financial trouble

    - They get a young man (who they knew all his life) to loan them the money, he signs a contract in return for interest and such.

    - The young man then loses his job and finds himself in financial trouble, but per the terms of the contract he cannot ask they give him all of the money back now, he needs to wait 5 years

    - The young man wants out of his contract and his money back, as he's in major trouble. So he tries to find a loop hole.

    - The young man then finds out that he's the couple's son, not just a family friend like originally believed. They always knew, but hid the truth for some reason.

    - The young man still needs his money back, but is bound by contract. However now there's the whole issue of being their son to confuse things. Moral obligations, inheritance potential, honor, etc.

    - Even if he could get out of the contract, there's the choice (and guilt) of doing something like that to his parents.

    - In any case, he's 100% stuck with the contract in play.

    Edited on 04/21/2009 6:41am
    Edited 5 total times.
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    S-Shield

    [19]Apr 21, 2009
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    The thing is that Sam didn't sign any contract.

    It would have fit better if, in the first episode, the Devil had come to Sam and said "Your dad is going to die. But if you sign this contract and sell me your soul, I'll save him." Sam does so, but then finds out later that his dad wasn't really his dad. But Sam still signed the contract, and the Devil still saved Mr. Oliver, he fulfilled his end of the bargain. So Sam is still bound by his contract with the Devil.

    My point is how could Mr. Oliver have sold something that wasn't his to sell in the first place? (Assuming parents have the right to sell their children's souls).

    I mean, by that logic, I could sell my neighbor's soul to the Devil.

    Edited on 04/21/2009 8:21pm
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    kanniballl

    [20]Apr 22, 2009
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    S-Shield wrote:

    The thing is that Sam didn't sign any contract.

    ...

    My point is how could Mr. Oliver have sold something that wasn't his to sell in the first place? (Assuming parents have the right to sell their children's souls).

    I mean, by that logic, I could sell my neighbor's soul to the Devil.


    They addressed that with Ben stating the same thing: you can't sell someone else's soul.

    However Sam is bound by the contract because of the mother; the devil is holding her life hostage. Recall in the Pilot that if Sam decides to not meet the terms of his parent's contract then his mother dies. He meets her in the porch and she states that she' willing to die for him but Sam comforts her and says that it's no big deal.

    Do we know for 100% certain that the mother didn't sign or co-sign the contract somewhere? After all, it's her life on the line and assuming we haven't been COMPLETELY lied to then no matter who's the father, she's the mother.

    I will admit though that things would be more clear-cut if in the Pilot the Devil made Sam co-sign the contract stating he agreed to the terms so the mother lives, but that obviously never happened (unless as someone else stated, maybe that's what the "forms" were for that he was signing when he got the big contract).

    Then again the mother has appeared to fall off the face of the earth. Whether its because the actress wanted off the show, or she went to oblivion like his brother, or the writers are holding back on a twist, it's anyone's guess.

    Fairy tales are full of stories where the child meets some fate because of a deal met by the parents; and I'd say Reaper falls somewhere under Fantasy.

    Edited on 04/22/2009 6:22am
    Edited 2 total times.
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