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FX (ended 2011)

Guess What I Found Out? (Spoilers and Speculations Thread)

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    Epik15

    [21]Jun 20, 2006
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    Oh my god. Guys are not like girls when it comes to messing around with the same sex. It just can't be done, it's physically impossible to be sexual with another guy if you are straight. There's this force... you just CAN'T. Girls on the other hand can mess around and say, "well i was young and a little drunk...", or whatever. There is nothing wrong with being homosexual but a straight guy kissing or caressing another guy and then saying he was young? No way.

    Probie resting his head on another guy's shoulder... well, not enough to say he's gay for sure, we don't know who this new character is and what their relationship is all about. There's nothing wrong with two guys being close even though they made it a little overly sensual. But if there's kissing in episodes to come he's definitely gay. Although he could be a little screwed up by recent experiences.

    But whatever, it's not like anyone is as stupid as the characters Garrity and Probie in real life anyway.

    Ok just adding a personal opinion.

    I believe homosexuality is something that you can't choose to be. It's how some people are born. A difference in genetic code. Just like any other thing; hair color, how much hair you have on your body, height, skin pigment, whatever. In this day and age homosexuality is not accepted like having red hair or something but eventually it will be. Because human beings ARE good at heart and evolve. Now some people might have had some traumatic experiences and choose to be with the same sex but come on plenty of people dye their hair or change something else about them and you don't place blame on the others who were born that way. We're all equal individuals, we've all got a soul and we're all just living our lives the best we can. It's ridiculous how everyone seems to say yeah, we're all equal but we can't seem to go all the way with that idea and just accept everything and everyone. Sh*t will it really take the discovery of life on another planet or some other type of intelligent species for people to on Earth to accept eachother fully. I mean, not even mentioning the fact that if we're so intelligent and this new species wishes us no harm we should accept them equally as well but nooo their different oh my god, let's take a thousand steps back and just be afraid of what we don't understand. Anyways, i'm a totally straight guy and would never ever do anything sexual with another male but if you're gay that's completely fine please don't do something stupid and consider hurting yourself. You're not inferior in any way you're probably superior because of the fact you're experiencing such hardships and can understand what it's like and are probably more willing to accept others for how they are. You're much superior than all the dumb people bashing on you for no reason. Good luck with life and enjoy today.

    Edited on 06/20/2006 2:58pm
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  • Avatar of PyleansDntLvMe

    PyleansDntLvMe

    [22]Jun 20, 2006
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    That.... that was just profoundly nice to read.
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    tjaman

    [23]Jun 20, 2006
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    * doesn't want to point out to Py the "bare"/"bear" problem in one of his posts, but it's ever so close to the "there"/"their" post that someone could take issue *

    And that was nice to read. And welcome to the forum, Epik!

    Breaking your post into a few more paragraphs would make it even nicer, but for now we're just happy to meet you.

    Kick back and enjoy yourself and again, welcome to the forum!

    Edited on 06/20/2006 3:43pm
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    tjaman

    [24]Jun 20, 2006
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    Links are allowed. You can make them into the standard * clicky * links when you are above Level 3.
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    yellohcard

    [25]Jun 20, 2006
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    That was very nicely put.
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    PyleansDntLvMe

    [26]Jun 21, 2006
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    Bare/Bear

    Potato/Potatoe

    Salmon/Sea Bass

    I never claimed any great degree of moral high ground

    ANd after last nights episode, clearly my use of the words 'Loving and supportive' were a bit off the mark...

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    tjaman

    [27]Jun 21, 2006
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    Well, considering last time when he went after Teresa armed ...
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    PyleansDntLvMe

    [28]Jun 21, 2006
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    I'm fascinated that Mikey found someone even ... simpler... than himself to be with, apparently.
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    tjaman

    [29]Jun 21, 2006
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    "Use your logic, man."

    Well by Probie's argument, Roomie couldn't be less gay than Probie -- only equally not gay at all.

    But to be honest, I'm not certain how far logic enters into it. Sexual activity between two guys crests the level threshold of "gay," but the rationalizations have sent logic reeling in every direction.
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    PyleansDntLvMe

    [30]Jun 21, 2006
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    You know, sexuality is SUCH a fluid and nebulous thing. 

    Really, you can argue all day until you're blue in the face as to at what point you're actually 'gay' Is it when you're interested in having sex with someone of the same sex?  Does mutual masturbation count?  If we don't kiss does that mean I'm not gay?  If I experimented once in college, but didn't really care for it much, does the fact that I did it once mean I'm gay?

    All we can really say is that Mikey is currently in a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex.  And yes-  receiving oral sex does in fact count as being in a sexual relationship

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    tjaman

    [31]Jun 21, 2006
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    It's the difference between activity and identity.

    Lots of guys have sex with other guys in prisons, for example, who are only situationally homosexual.

    I agree with the idea that identity is more fluid than "gay," "straight" or "bi."

    Probie's in a relationship with another guy, but everything about his brain is screaming at him that "gay" is "wrong." So he's in a certain amount of denial about this which is making it difficult for him to really reflect on who he is, identity-wise.
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    PyleansDntLvMe

    [32]Jun 21, 2006
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    We prefer the term 'Jail Gay'
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    tifer1974

    [33]Jun 21, 2006
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    Ok, where I may agree with you that being in prison and having sex with another man is only "Temporary Gay"... I have to fully disagree with you about, what happens on the outside of prison... If you are, a male and you have sex with another male. Be it oral, anal or otherwise. You are gay! Alternatively, if you want to dress it up with a pretty bow... Bi’. Nevertheless, the point is Probie is "Gay/Bi"... I have no problem with that... To be honest with you I always thought he was a little on the Gay-side to begin with anyway. Doesn’t make him a bad person... Just makes him Gay is all... Last night’s argument with his Boyfriend/Roommate? Only shows how funny the situation is. He doesn’t even realize yet, that he’s gay… However, I bet you by the end of the season he will realize it when he is in the middle of a dance off with four other guys on Fire Island! Now the bigger question I have is about last nights last scene with Tommy and his Wife… Wow… I don’t think I have ever seen such a graphic rape scene before on basic cable…I kept waiting for it to cut to him in the sperm bank filling his cup… I was sure that it was just a fantasy scene for him to fill the cup… Who else agrees with me?

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    tjaman

    [34]Jun 21, 2006
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    The flipside of that is a gay guy in a married/family situation because of family obligations, social pressures, etc. He may be having sex with his wife but he's not really into it.

    I believe the term for that is "closeted."

    And tifer, I'd really love for that to have been a dream sequence but I don't think it is structurally -- Tommy and Janet talking afterwards (about her ripped shirt), Tommy leaving and driving away as Johnny pulled up. This show does a lot of alternate reality sequences and they never do them like that, so ...
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  • Avatar of PyleansDntLvMe

    PyleansDntLvMe

    [35]Jun 21, 2006
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    I was with him on the 'Please God let it be a dream sequence' thing though.  I was really hoping against hope that that was the case.

    But alas, no.

    Sexuality, on a completely different topic, is not so limited as to have everyone merely Gay, straight or Bi.

    Kinsey's theory was that sexuality could be rated on a scale on 1 to 5, 1 being completely homosexual, 5 being completely heterosexual.  ( I may have the two ends of the spectrum flipped around now that I think about it.  Doesn't matter.  Point still stands)

    His belief was that everyone was at some point between totally hetero and totally homo.  A belief which seems to stand up in the world at large.

    However, at this point in time I tend to think that his 2 dimensional line really needs to be (and has been actually -for those following sexuality and gender theory) expanded to a 3 dimensional grid

    Because....

    And here's the really interesting bit to me

    Gender itself is really FAR less black and white either/or than we like to believe.

    For example, what of transexuals?  What about Transvestites?  What about hermaphodites, or Chimerical DNA?  What, for that matter, about those born XXY?

    None of those fit into the classic system of either male or female.

    There's a fairly well known theory in academic circles that gender itself is really more of a spectrum ,being not so much described in total by what genitalia you have , but instead taking the view that your genitalia is only one componant of the total package (no pun intended) that makes up your gender.

    SO, to modify Kinsey's scale, the X-axis would be your sexual preference from Homo to Hetero.  The Y axis would be your gender, from totally male to totally female ( a lot of which is made up by societally determined characteristics such as 'likes basketball', 'can fix cars', 'shows emotion in public' and the like)

    And the REAL kicker is that societal viewpoint on what 'male' and 'female' characteristics are is CONSTANTLY in a state of flux, meaniong that where you are on the gender scale today is in no way fixed, and could very well have changed in the next 20-30 years (much as our views on allowing yourself to cry, or be able to cook have moved from 'totally female' to somewhere middle-ish.)

    There's a FURTHER take on this that would go on to suggest that no one, in fact, has any sexuality at all.  That we all each as individuals have a particular set of what I'll call 'mate points' that we are drawn to, one of which would be the sort of genitalia you're interested in.  When you meet someone who possesses enough of the 'mate points' that draw you, you desire them and attempt to form a relationship with them.

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    tjaman

    [36]Jun 21, 2006
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    Thank you for that discussion, Py, although life is so much less clinical and abstract, because as you well know society attaches moral values on pairing up (and beyond, multiple partners and polygamy and polyandry being underground -- or, more to the point, less and less "fringe" followings than maybe Margaret Thatcher would like to believe).

    So who one loves often must contend with legal and social barriers which are real and if not fixed, not moved about much without effort. And if you find yourself on the wrong divide concerning socially countenanced "mate points" you face difficulties and pressures in the larger society that other, perhaps less exotic constructs do not.

    Which is sad, and contributes to that other link you shared concerning gay male suicide.

    Ultimately, if what you posted is an example of elevated, more cosmopolitan sensibilities, it does confront a significantly different reaction in the social consciousness of, say, life in a New York City firehouse.

    Edited on 06/21/2006 2:34pm
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  • Avatar of PyleansDntLvMe

    PyleansDntLvMe

    [37]Jun 21, 2006
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    It's true... I do tend to get a little overenthusiastic on the topic, don't I....

    Boys are cute.

    Tree pretty.

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    tjaman

    [38]Jun 21, 2006
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    Good discussion all the same, of course.
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    PyleansDntLvMe

    [39]Jun 21, 2006
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    Ultimately, I just wanted to make the point that the whole the is a lot more complicated than just 'Is Probie gay or isn't he?'

    That's really all I was getting at.

    I HIGHLY doubt that Franco and Sean are going to launch into a discussion about the fluidity of gender and sexuality after they find out about Probie's roommate

    Ken might....

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    tjaman

    [40]Jun 21, 2006
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    If he's not too busy trying to chew his own leg off.

    * sniff * Poor, poor Kenny. 

    P.S. -- It should be known that I would pay good hard cash money to see Garrity, Probie and Roomie attempting such a discussion. Probie and Garrity's discussion of theology with Katie -- by whom they were so vastly outmatched -- at the end of S2 had  me rolling.

    .

    Edited on 06/21/2006 4:04pm
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