Samurai X Forums

Cartoon Network (ended 2003)

Was rurouni kenshin ever on adault swim?

  • Avatar of GK-37

    GK-37

    [21]Aug 10, 2007
    • member since: 07/28/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 35
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:

    It wouldn't be on adult swim because it is too optimistic. If it were in adult swim, Kenshin would have ended up killing someone on the first day. This is consistant on adult swim. Almost every series feature leads that kill. Also, the way the show is presented doesn't lend itself towards something anyone over fifteen can give full respect to. Also, the thing that shows like Death Note have over this when it comes to maturity are the inherent evil present in every character. A mature show gives no one a good clear moral path, they show us the world with a twist and we draw the connections on our own. That is what makes this show comparatively immature.

    I disagree with all of that. Rurouni Kenshin has plenty of twisted villains, and no one sais that you have to see things the way that Kenshin does, just like you don't have to see the way that Light sees them in Death Note. Also, Trigun is an anime with the main character who has a very optimistic view, and believes that it is wrong to kill people, yet they aired that on Adult Swim. Basically all you're doing is just spewing a bunch of crap out, and trying to show off, pretending that you know what you're talking about, when you really don't.

    I have seen much of trigun and i still disagree with you on this. I do admit that the metion of killing on the first episode was stupid, my main pont probably should have been directed towards the lack of moral ambiguity in the series. Yes, I don't have to see it from Kenshin's view, but even if i don't, his path is never disproven. And I don't think it can work for a mature audience because the arc of the story has too little recognition of the flaws inherent in a morality that leaves little room for error. Most of Kenshin's freinds never even seem close to death (even though they are ocassionally close, the mood never quite shifts enough to give any real impact), for that matter, Kenshin himself is rarely hurt by his morals. Additionally, most of the negativity comes from only the disreputable parts of society or particular people, while the civilians tend to support the protagonists unconditionally. It's almost as though they are saying that 95% are perfect and the other five percent is the interesting group. This brings the show to a level of optimism i consider unreasonable, not to mention, demeaning to that 95%. Aside from that, the overall quality of it's production would be the lowest of any modern adult swim anime since NGE. Personally, though this is the main reason i don't think it is adult swim material is that on first time i watched adult swim about this time last year i was amazed by the shows i saw. But if Rurouni kenshin was in that block that first time, it would have killed that amazing experience because it just isn't anything like those shows.

    Still, none of that shows that RK couldn't be on Adult Swim. Look at Bleach, almost nobody dies in that anime, and it really doesn't have that much blood compared to other series, yet its on AS. Kenshin is far more mature than what you're making it out to be, and its not your typical shounen. BTW, Death Note is a shounen (published in the very same manga magazine, Shounen Jump, that Rurouni Kenshin was published in). Second of all, Rurouni Kenshin is far superrior to what they've been showin on AS in the last few years (aside from FMA, although I still personally prefer the RK manga to FMA). With that said, Rurouni Kenshin is one of the "BEST" series ever made. The anime, first of all, ends with fillers, and in that apect, most of them are childish. Tell me, have you even seen the OVAs . I'd like to see how you could call those childish. Those are in fact far more intense than almost any show AS has aired so far (and I'm saying this from only seeing a little bit of them).

    If you think RK is just a lower anime, then you're sadly mistaken. Don't you realize the hidden messages behind the arcs. RK isn't simply just a story about a swordsman who wants to be good and repent for his bad deeds of the past. However, many of the shows that AS is airing, such as GitS, and Bleach, have absolutely no meaning to them, and are just about the action and animation (not that that's a bad thing, but it hardly takes any thinking or annalyzing to watch most of the anime that have aired on AS). First of all, tell me a series on AS, that has brilliantly contstructed a tragic past, that is simillar to how Kenshin's life was as the Battousai. And look at how his relationship with tomoe was built up, tell me how that could come from a simple children's series ? Basically, all you are saying is that just because the views of RK are optimistic, its not AS material, and not something that an older audience would enjoy as much as a younger one. But the fact of the matter is that RK, even in Japan where stuff that is shown on AS would usually be considered shounen (in other words, series for younger boys), is actually read and cherished by many older readers as well.

    Let me ask you this, have you even ventured into the thickness off the deep plot in Rurouni Kenshin's illustrious Jinchuu/Revenge arc ? If you have not even done that, then you are in no position to be saying whether RK is mature enough or not, to air on AS.

    Listent carefully, normally, I have no problem with people giving out their opinions. In your case, I would have no problem with you feeling that RK is not as mature a series as the ones shown on AS, but it just so happens that your basis for thinking so is flawed. It would seem that you have only seen the edited version of RK on the old Toonami, from the way in which you are talking about the series. Sorry, but you're going to have to come up with something more convincing then what you're saying now, to convince anyone that Rurouni Kenshin is not a mature series. Because quite frankly, its one of the most mature series out there, as far as manga/anime goes. And that lies within its morals and themes, not the views of its main characters.

    Personally, i think we will never agree on this one so i won't try to take up too much time arguing. First, it is my beleif that depth isn't the only sign of maturity, much of which lies in the execution.

    I am not unknowledgable about the series as i have watched the full series uncut. Also, i have seen both OVAs and they are among my favorite animes. However, the main series isn't even simmilar to the OVAs (most sites back me up on this). Even though I am extremely pessimistic, i don't have any problems with optimism, I just don't think there is any path that can be taken without cost.

    Every path in RK has cost. And I doubt that most people will agree on you that RK is not mature. The thing is that blood, gore, and killing alone, is not what makes a series mature. However, the main argument of this, would be, is Rurouni Kenshin AS material. And it undoubtedly is. Explain to me how RK is less mature than Bleach, which has somehow found its way onto AS. And then there is Trigun. That show has a very optimistic view for the most part, but that was also aired on AS. And look at Shin-Chan. That show is made for children in Japan, yet it is aired on AS. And what about the manga, did you read the entire series for it ? You are saying that Death Note is mature, and I agree, but have you ever considered how many things in it are highly unrealisitc, and in a sense, childish. For example, there is no way that one man, could ever gain the entire support of the World's Police alone, even for a second. Also, many things such as wealth and money that are used to house the facilities in which people like L and Near were stationed, were very ill-explained, and some of their reasoning was farfetched. My point in all of this, is that if you're going to be all nit-picky with Ruouni Kenshin, you may as well take this into consideration, every single anime, in one way or another, will have an aspect of it that can be viewed as poor, or immature, or childish, even ones that people claim to be a stroke of geneous, such as NGE (I haven't watched very much of it to make a judgement, but I have noticed how unrealistic some of the characters inthe show,act). Anyways, all you're looking at his Kenshin's view of life, which seems to be your only basis for calling RK a less mature series. That, is something that I have to disagree with.

    i am getting tired of paragraph form so i'll just seperate my response into categories:

    maturity: first, i am not being "nit-picky" with Rurouni kenshin, I believe that it shows little or no cost for Kenshin's path (from what I have seen he is the only one hurt by it through physical injuries he would have probably gotten anyways). In trigun there is a much more even distribution of pros and cons for Vash's path. The other thing is that the mood is way too silly and happy (even compared to trigun) to maintain the maturity of other shows. Even in bleach the tone is almost never as upbeat or silly. This is a very big part of the maturity of a show. In Rurouni kenshin the social interactions and comedy often are at the level of childrens cartoons in their lack of individualy based aspects. On shows like bleach there are unique ways in which characters interact on an individual level. But in Rurouni kenshin the characters are quite limited leading to vast generalizations in character. For example, many of the opinions in the show seem to be set as general facts and as such characters will all respond in the same way. This puts the character relations into a simpler, easier to manage form. This doesn't happen in most adult swim shows were the characters always have their own intrests and perspectives in mind while they talk, making it less preachy and more mature.

    Adult swim material: First of, i would have to disagreewith what you said about adult swim not having good shows. In fact, there have only been two in their anime lineup that have been poorly reviewed. Additionally, as i have said, Rurouni Kenshin has far worse production values than anything they have had recently. The animation is okay, but most of what gets on adult swim is increadible either artistically or technically. Also, i have heard the voice acting in the dub and it is very unprofessional when compared to the modern dubs. Just compare it side by side with Samurai Champloo, Paranoia Agent, or Eureka Seven and you'll see what i mean. And though you might think otherwise, the animation is extremely important when you cater to an adult audience, especialy one that is skeptic about anime. Anyways, i don't even think that depth is much of an issue for adult swim broadcasting. There are plenty of series far more deep than Rurouni Kenshin that haven't gone on adult swim. The point is that in order to be successfull, adult swim has to focus on the shows that are the best in many areas and in it's time Ruruoni Kenshin was not nearly up to standards set by other shows.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of GK-37

    GK-37

    [22]Aug 10, 2007
    • member since: 07/28/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 35
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    blackmagechris1 wrote:

    Reads the long paragraphs

    Inuyasha is a regular shonen like the others but the main reason it's on Adult Swim they judged the violence in the first five minutes.

    http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=359 That is a very dumb reason it should be on Adult Swim.

    NGE will never be on Toonami. The main character is the biggest emo in anime. The kid viewerswill lose their sanity. Things will be edited like the MisatoXKaji sex scene or Karowu or Shinji fights his best friend and he doesn't know about till the end, and the scene like the rei and asuka evevator scene will kill ratings. The last group of kenshn episodes were more confusing than the entire show of NGE.

    I heard that Trigun manga became a manga for young adult males.

    I do wonder how CN handles the Christian arc?

    CN never aired the Christian arc, nor any of the other fillers that came after the Kyoto arc, if I remember correctly. Also, Trigun started out as a manga for young adult males, or in other words, teenagers . Its classified as a seinen, but my point was that the anime wasn't all that mature from what I've seen of it, yet it was able to make its way onto AS. BTW, is NGE good, because I keep hearing all of these mixed opinions on it. Is it just one of those anime that people go crazy over, because its supposed to be all deep and stuff, or does it actually have some sort of entertainment value to it, that makes it actually fun to watch ? I'm just curious about that, because I saw the first episode awhile ago, and it was a bit of a turnoff, in that nothing exciting happenned, and it was overall, just boring and painful for me to watch. So, does the show actually get any better?

    Trigun gets MUCH more mature towards the end.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of twentymooseman

    twentymooseman

    [24]Aug 10, 2007
    • member since: 08/05/07
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 39
    the violence has more blood and gore in the kyoto arc
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of ensatsu-ken

    ensatsu-ken

    [25]Aug 10, 2007
    • member since: 10/24/06
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 6,686
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:

    It wouldn't be on adult swim because it is too optimistic. If it were in adult swim, Kenshin would have ended up killing someone on the first day. This is consistant on adult swim. Almost every series feature leads that kill. Also, the way the show is presented doesn't lend itself towards something anyone over fifteen can give full respect to. Also, the thing that shows like Death Note have over this when it comes to maturity are the inherent evil present in every character. A mature show gives no one a good clear moral path, they show us the world with a twist and we draw the connections on our own. That is what makes this show comparatively immature.

    I disagree with all of that. Rurouni Kenshin has plenty of twisted villains, and no one sais that you have to see things the way that Kenshin does, just like you don't have to see the way that Light sees them in Death Note. Also, Trigun is an anime with the main character who has a very optimistic view, and believes that it is wrong to kill people, yet they aired that on Adult Swim. Basically all you're doing is just spewing a bunch of crap out, and trying to show off, pretending that you know what you're talking about, when you really don't.

    I have seen much of trigun and i still disagree with you on this. I do admit that the metion of killing on the first episode was stupid, my main pont probably should have been directed towards the lack of moral ambiguity in the series. Yes, I don't have to see it from Kenshin's view, but even if i don't, his path is never disproven. And I don't think it can work for a mature audience because the arc of the story has too little recognition of the flaws inherent in a morality that leaves little room for error. Most of Kenshin's freinds never even seem close to death (even though they are ocassionally close, the mood never quite shifts enough to give any real impact), for that matter, Kenshin himself is rarely hurt by his morals. Additionally, most of the negativity comes from only the disreputable parts of society or particular people, while the civilians tend to support the protagonists unconditionally. It's almost as though they are saying that 95% are perfect and the other five percent is the interesting group. This brings the show to a level of optimism i consider unreasonable, not to mention, demeaning to that 95%. Aside from that, the overall quality of it's production would be the lowest of any modern adult swim anime since NGE. Personally, though this is the main reason i don't think it is adult swim material is that on first time i watched adult swim about this time last year i was amazed by the shows i saw. But if Rurouni kenshin was in that block that first time, it would have killed that amazing experience because it just isn't anything like those shows.

    Still, none of that shows that RK couldn't be on Adult Swim. Look at Bleach, almost nobody dies in that anime, and it really doesn't have that much blood compared to other series, yet its on AS. Kenshin is far more mature than what you're making it out to be, and its not your typical shounen. BTW, Death Note is a shounen (published in the very same manga magazine, Shounen Jump, that Rurouni Kenshin was published in). Second of all, Rurouni Kenshin is far superrior to what they've been showin on AS in the last few years (aside from FMA, although I still personally prefer the RK manga to FMA). With that said, Rurouni Kenshin is one of the "BEST" series ever made. The anime, first of all, ends with fillers, and in that apect, most of them are childish. Tell me, have you even seen the OVAs . I'd like to see how you could call those childish. Those are in fact far more intense than almost any show AS has aired so far (and I'm saying this from only seeing a little bit of them).

    If you think RK is just a lower anime, then you're sadly mistaken. Don't you realize the hidden messages behind the arcs. RK isn't simply just a story about a swordsman who wants to be good and repent for his bad deeds of the past. However, many of the shows that AS is airing, such as GitS, and Bleach, have absolutely no meaning to them, and are just about the action and animation (not that that's a bad thing, but it hardly takes any thinking or annalyzing to watch most of the anime that have aired on AS). First of all, tell me a series on AS, that has brilliantly contstructed a tragic past, that is simillar to how Kenshin's life was as the Battousai. And look at how his relationship with tomoe was built up, tell me how that could come from a simple children's series ? Basically, all you are saying is that just because the views of RK are optimistic, its not AS material, and not something that an older audience would enjoy as much as a younger one. But the fact of the matter is that RK, even in Japan where stuff that is shown on AS would usually be considered shounen (in other words, series for younger boys), is actually read and cherished by many older readers as well.

    Let me ask you this, have you even ventured into the thickness off the deep plot in Rurouni Kenshin's illustrious Jinchuu/Revenge arc ? If you have not even done that, then you are in no position to be saying whether RK is mature enough or not, to air on AS.

    Listent carefully, normally, I have no problem with people giving out their opinions. In your case, I would have no problem with you feeling that RK is not as mature a series as the ones shown on AS, but it just so happens that your basis for thinking so is flawed. It would seem that you have only seen the edited version of RK on the old Toonami, from the way in which you are talking about the series. Sorry, but you're going to have to come up with something more convincing then what you're saying now, to convince anyone that Rurouni Kenshin is not a mature series. Because quite frankly, its one of the most mature series out there, as far as manga/anime goes. And that lies within its morals and themes, not the views of its main characters.

    Personally, i think we will never agree on this one so i won't try to take up too much time arguing. First, it is my beleif that depth isn't the only sign of maturity, much of which lies in the execution.

    I am not unknowledgable about the series as i have watched the full series uncut. Also, i have seen both OVAs and they are among my favorite animes. However, the main series isn't even simmilar to the OVAs (most sites back me up on this). Even though I am extremely pessimistic, i don't have any problems with optimism, I just don't think there is any path that can be taken without cost.

    Every path in RK has cost. And I doubt that most people will agree on you that RK is not mature. The thing is that blood, gore, and killing alone, is not what makes a series mature. However, the main argument of this, would be, is Rurouni Kenshin AS material. And it undoubtedly is. Explain to me how RK is less mature than Bleach, which has somehow found its way onto AS. And then there is Trigun. That show has a very optimistic view for the most part, but that was also aired on AS. And look at Shin-Chan. That show is made for children in Japan, yet it is aired on AS. And what about the manga, did you read the entire series for it ? You are saying that Death Note is mature, and I agree, but have you ever considered how many things in it are highly unrealisitc, and in a sense, childish. For example, there is no way that one man, could ever gain the entire support of the World's Police alone, even for a second. Also, many things such as wealth and money that are used to house the facilities in which people like L and Near were stationed, were very ill-explained, and some of their reasoning was farfetched. My point in all of this, is that if you're going to be all nit-picky with Ruouni Kenshin, you may as well take this into consideration, every single anime, in one way or another, will have an aspect of it that can be viewed as poor, or immature, or childish, even ones that people claim to be a stroke of geneous, such as NGE (I haven't watched very much of it to make a judgement, but I have noticed how unrealistic some of the characters inthe show,act). Anyways, all you're looking at his Kenshin's view of life, which seems to be your only basis for calling RK a less mature series. That, is something that I have to disagree with.

    i am getting tired of paragraph form so i'll just seperate my response into categories:

    maturity: first, i am not being "nit-picky" with Rurouni kenshin, I believe that it shows little or no cost for Kenshin's path (from what I have seen he is the only one hurt by it through physical injuries he would have probably gotten anyways). In trigun there is a much more even distribution of pros and cons for Vash's path. The other thing is that the mood is way too silly and happy (even compared to trigun) to maintain the maturity of other shows. Even in bleach the tone is almost never as upbeat or silly. This is a very big part of the maturity of a show. In Rurouni kenshin the social interactions and comedy often are at the level of childrens cartoons in their lack of individualy based aspects. On shows like bleach there are unique ways in which characters interact on an individual level. But in Rurouni kenshin the characters are quite limited leading to vast generalizations in character. For example, many of the opinions in the show seem to be set as general facts and as such characters will all respond in the same way. This puts the character relations into a simpler, easier to manage form. This doesn't happen in most adult swim shows were the characters always have their own intrests and perspectives in mind while they talk, making it less preachy and more mature.

    Adult swim material: First of, i would have to disagreewith what you said about adult swim not having good shows. In fact, there have only been two in their anime lineup that have been poorly reviewed. Additionally, as i have said, Rurouni Kenshin has far worse production values than anything they have had recently. The animation is okay, but most of what gets on adult swim is increadible either artistically or technically. Also, i have heard the voice acting in the dub and it is very unprofessional when compared to the modern dubs. Just compare it side by side with Samurai Champloo, Paranoia Agent, or Eureka Seven and you'll see what i mean. And though you might think otherwise, the animation is extremely important when you cater to an adult audience, especialy one that is skeptic about anime. Anyways, i don't even think that depth is much of an issue for adult swim broadcasting. There are plenty of series far more deep than Rurouni Kenshin that haven't gone on adult swim. The point is that in order to be successfull, adult swim has to focus on the shows that are the best in many areas and in it's time Ruruoni Kenshin was not nearly up to standards set by other shows.



    Are you kidding me !? 90% of the modern dubs suck. Rurouni Kenshin is very proffestional "unlike" the most of the newere dubs. Samurai Champloo and FMA are some of the only good newere dubbed anime. You clearly don't know much about dubbing if you find RK's unproffesional. Shishioh's voice was one the best dubbed voices in anime. Also, making the lines sound interesting to American vieweres, while still keeping the overall meaning of them in proper translation, is something that's very difficult to do, and something which you don't seem to have much appreciation for. The voices "perfectly" fit the RK characters, whereas in newer dubbed anime, such as Bleach and Naruto, the voices hardly ever fit, and the dubbing is terrible. Also, how are you going to call the Cowboy Bebop dubs unproffesional. Its arguably one of the best dubbed anime out there, and its one of the older dubs as well. You can't ignore the fact that most newers dubbed series, have half-@ssed voice acting, whereas there was care and attention put into the voices of the characters for older dubbed series. And, let me ask you, how many episodes of the English dub of RK have you actually seen ?

    Second of all, production values don't matter so much with AS, because as you know yourself, stuff like NGE and Yu Yu Hakusho, which have very outdated animation, have been aired on AS before. And haven't you ever heard the term "graphics aren't everything" ?

    Rurouni Kenshin also gets much more mature towards the end. I don't really see how you can call the Jichuu arc un-mature (and you have read the manga, right ?). Seriously though, if you think that Bleach is mature, then I'm not sure if I can trust you opinion on maturity. First of all, it seems more like you don't want to admit that RK is very well AS material. The interaction between characters is FAR more realistic and believable, than what it is in Bleach (and I have seen A LOT of shounen and seinen anime, so I do know what I am talking about when something is mature or not). In Bleach, characters will spurt out humorous scenes at some inappropriate times. Whereas Rurouni Kenshin propersly balances its humour and its drama (and PLENTY of people will back me up on this, if you ask around). Bleach's characters are highly generic, and they are quite predictable, and THIS is something that is an important factor of judging whether something is mature on childish.

    Like I said, normally I would respect your opinion, but the reasons you are giving aren't very good ones, IMO, and it feels more like you want to be right, more than actually get your point across to me, because I really disagree with pretty much everything you've been saying so far. You are calling the RK character limmitted, but do you even know what that means ? Characters from series like Bleach and Naruto, and even occasionally the minor characters on FMA, can be very predictable, and generic, whereas almost all of the characters of RK, have a uniqueness in their personality (aside from Kenshin himself, and Yahiko when he's only a child).

    Bottom line is that Rurouni Kenshin is a brilliantly construced series, that gives a great amoung of depth to its characters and plots, and that can create suspense very brilliantly. For a shounen, it is one of the most mature ones ou there. Just as always, your only saying that RK is childish, because of the view of the main character. That is a wrong way to look at it, and the last arc of the manga should pretty much have cleared that assumption up. You see, a childish series, while not necessarily bad, will not get me deeply involved with the series, and I won't feel any sort of passion, or emotions, towards its characters. Rurouni Kenshin brilliantly makes you feel for its characters, and comes out with more than your average villain, such as Enishi (who although clearly evil, can be felt for, in that if the view put his or herself in Enishi's shoes, they would hate Kenshin as well). But, hey, if you don't want to listen to me, then like I said, go ahead and ask around.

    I'll sum up this entire argument by saying that you can believe what you want. If RK is immature in your opinion, then fine, I wwon't try to argue with you any longer. However, I just want you to know that you shouldn't expect everyone to agree with what you say, and shouldn't try to pass by your opinion as if it were a fact, because its most definitely not. Also, why don't you try asking around to some other people, what their take on Rurouni Kenshin is, in terms of its content; whether it be mature or not. That might show you that I'm not the only one who thinks this way about RK, which is a very mature series, if you actually take the time to annalyze its depth and messages.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of GK-37

    GK-37

    [26]Aug 11, 2007
    • member since: 07/28/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 35

    My goal is not to make you agree with what i say, i am just trying to provide my opinion (sorry for stating opinions as facts), however, the comments on voice acting and animation are based of professional sources.

    By the way i have not read the manga but i am talking about the show, because i doubt AdultSwim woul ever have a segment where they broadcast manga.

    I will not argue any more because there is very little argument left that isn't based off opinion. That said, i just want to clear up some misconceptions with my meanings:

    1. by limited i mean that the characters aren't very original in the way they respond to other characters. Sure, they are very unique characters, but they are limited because their interaction with each other shows little distinction. For example, when characters express their opinions of the behavior of another character, they never insert their own individuality into their speach, rather, they talk as if it were just a common fact. The most original character is stiill very limited if they cannot easily distinguish themselves in normal conversation.

    2. first off, i hadn't heard that Yu Yu Hakusho was on Adult Swim but i do know that most of their shows have very good animation, and animation is actually quite important for the mood of a show. Also, the comments on voice acting are based of a lot of research i have done on modern shows. Also, when i said that modern anime has good voice acting I am only using recent anime as a relevent section of comparable media, i never meant that old anime had bad dubs. By the way, i watched the first episode with a friend who has watched anime quite a bit, however, I was forced to find something else to watch ten minutes in because of the voice acting.

    You keep mentioning the Enishi Revenge arc as being very mture, and from what i saw in the OVA I agree with you completely. However, it was not a part of the anime and i doubt they would put it in.

    I actually liked Rurouni kenshin quite a bit when i watched it and i still like it now. However, when i watched the series, i looked for depth and meaning in every moment of every episode, and found many themes, but the presentation and dialog always kept me from considering it a mature series.

    I don't beleive that i have to get approval for my reasons because i am not the same person as you are and as such my mind works differently and that is not something for me to rationalize.

    Edited on 08/11/2007 2:04am
    Edited 2 total times.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of ensatsu-ken

    ensatsu-ken

    [27]Aug 11, 2007
    • member since: 10/24/06
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 6,686
    GK-37 wrote:

    My goal is not to make you agree with what i say, i am just trying to provide my opinion (sorry for stating opinions as facts), however, the comments on voice acting and animation are based of professional sources.

    By the way i have not read the manga but i am talking about the show, because i doubt AdultSwim woul ever have a segment where they broadcast manga.

    I will not argue any more because there is very little argument left that isn't based off opinion. That said, i just want to clear up some misconceptions with my meanings:

    1. by limited i mean that the characters aren't very original in the way they respond to other characters. Sure, they are very unique characters, but they are limited because their interaction with each other shows little distinction. For example, when characters express their opinions of the behavior of another character, they never insert their own individuality into their speach, rather, they talk as if it were just a common fact. The most original character is stiill very limited if they cannot easily distinguish themselves in normal conversation.

    2. first off, i hadn't heard that Yu Yu Hakusho was on Adult Swim but i do know that most of their shows have very good animation, and animation is actually quite important for the mood of a show. Also, the comments on voice acting are based of a lot of research i have done on modern shows. Also, when i said that modern anime has good voice acting I am only using recent anime as a relevent section of comparable media, i never meant that old anime had bad dubs. By the way, i watched the first episode with a friend who has watched anime quite a bit, however, I was forced to find something else to watch ten minutes in because of the voice acting.

    You keep mentioning the Enishi Revenge arc as being very mture, and from what i saw in the OVA I agree with you completely. However, it was not a part of the anime and i doubt they would put it in.

    I actually liked Rurouni kenshin quite a bit when i watched it and i still like it now. However, when i watched the series, i looked for depth and meaning in every moment of every episode, and found many themes, but the presentation and dialog always kept me from considering it a mature series.

    I don't beleive that i have to get approval for my reasons because i am not the same person as you are and as such my mind works differently and that is not something for me to rationalize.



    Like I said, its fine if that's your opinion, but I still disagree with it. As for being unoriginal, I would agree with you on certain characters, but for most characters, they usually interact very interestingly with other characters. As for Yu Yu Hakusho, CN originally started airing it on AS. Then they thought that it might do better with kids, so they took it off, and gave it a try on Toonami. It turns out that the ratings were even lower when they did that, and they ended up having to cancel airing the anime on Toonami, and just moved it to a spot at 5:30 in the morning, until it finished its run. The same thing happenned with Rurouni Kenshin (in that they aired in on Toonami, but it didn't end up becoming very popular with the number of viewings, because it was mainly kids from the ages of 8-14 who watched Toonami. I also remember watching it as a kid, and I can tell you that, back then, I did not like Ruoruni Kenshin, because I did not understand its references to the old Japanese government (and government is hardly a good kids topic/subject if you want it interesting for children), and of course I was a bit to narrrow in the type of shows I liked back then, so I thought that Rurouni Kenshin was an anime with too much plot development, and not enough action (of course, my whole taste for anime has changed a lot since then).

    As for the dubbing, you can't just listen to what other people say. Do you even know who the voice actor for Shishio is. He's a very proffessional VA, who, if I'm not mistaken, has voiced characters for various videogames before. Cowboy Bebop has the voice talent of Steven Jay Blum, who is arguably one of the best American voice actors ever. You can't just trust what other people say, but you actually have to watch something for yourself. For example, a lot of n00bs will say that Naruto is the best anime ever, but it doesn't mean that I have to believe them, and I am quite up to date with Naruto, and its really average. Anyways, that was just an example. The voice actors for most of the older anime, usually have had some sort of experience, whereas most of the new voice actors are people who have only done 1 or 2 voices (including the voice of the character that they are doing in the newer dub). I know from actually watching dubs from lots of the newer anime, that they are usually absolute crap. But, I would appreciate it if you could give me some links, to some of your sources. I know from looking at the cast, that most of the newere voice actors are very new to the field, and are highly unprofessional.

    Animation doesn't mean that much to me. Don't get me wrong, I love good animation, but if the story and characters are well developed, and if the show keeps you interested, then animation is not much of a problem for me.

    So, if you want to go on thinking that RK is not mature, then that is fine. However, as you can see from my post, it has many qualities that make it AS material. And the fact of the matter is that it didn't do to good in ratings with kids here, and that's a fact. Its also a fact that most of RK's fans are teenagers or older (over here in the U.S.; and also in various European and Western countires from what I've heard), and it has also attracted "many" older readers and viewers, in Japan, along with other Asian countries as well.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of bwing55543

    bwing55543

    [28]Aug 11, 2007
    • member since: 07/26/05
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 311

    talonmalon333 wrote:
    I don't think this would really fit on Adult Swim. It's not that mature really.

    I disagree. Rurouni Kenshin actually got pretty brutal at times.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of GK-37

    GK-37

    [29]Aug 12, 2007
    • member since: 07/28/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 35
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:

    My goal is not to make you agree with what i say, i am just trying to provide my opinion (sorry for stating opinions as facts), however, the comments on voice acting and animation are based of professional sources.

    By the way i have not read the manga but i am talking about the show, because i doubt AdultSwim woul ever have a segment where they broadcast manga.

    I will not argue any more because there is very little argument left that isn't based off opinion. That said, i just want to clear up some misconceptions with my meanings:

    1. by limited i mean that the characters aren't very original in the way they respond to other characters. Sure, they are very unique characters, but they are limited because their interaction with each other shows little distinction. For example, when characters express their opinions of the behavior of another character, they never insert their own individuality into their speach, rather, they talk as if it were just a common fact. The most original character is stiill very limited if they cannot easily distinguish themselves in normal conversation.

    2. first off, i hadn't heard that Yu Yu Hakusho was on Adult Swim but i do know that most of their shows have very good animation, and animation is actually quite important for the mood of a show. Also, the comments on voice acting are based of a lot of research i have done on modern shows. Also, when i said that modern anime has good voice acting I am only using recent anime as a relevent section of comparable media, i never meant that old anime had bad dubs. By the way, i watched the first episode with a friend who has watched anime quite a bit, however, I was forced to find something else to watch ten minutes in because of the voice acting.

    You keep mentioning the Enishi Revenge arc as being very mture, and from what i saw in the OVA I agree with you completely. However, it was not a part of the anime and i doubt they would put it in.

    I actually liked Rurouni kenshin quite a bit when i watched it and i still like it now. However, when i watched the series, i looked for depth and meaning in every moment of every episode, and found many themes, but the presentation and dialog always kept me from considering it a mature series.

    I don't beleive that i have to get approval for my reasons because i am not the same person as you are and as such my mind works differently and that is not something for me to rationalize.

    Like I said, its fine if that's your opinion, but I still disagree with it. As for being unoriginal, I would agree with you on certain characters, but for most characters, they usually interact very interestingly with other characters. As for Yu Yu Hakusho, CN originally started airing it on AS. Then they thought that it might do better with kids, so they took it off, and gave it a try on Toonami. It turns out that the ratings were even lower when they did that, and they ended up having to cancel airing the anime on Toonami, and just moved it to a spot at 5:30 in the morning, until it finished its run. The same thing happenned with Rurouni Kenshin (in that they aired in on Toonami, but it didn't end up becoming very popular with the number of viewings, because it was mainly kids from the ages of 8-14 who watched Toonami. I also remember watching it as a kid, and I can tell you that, back then, I did not like Ruoruni Kenshin, because I did not understand its references to the old Japanese government (and government is hardly a good kids topic/subject if you want it interesting for children), and of course I was a bit to narrrow in the type of shows I liked back then, so I thought that Rurouni Kenshin was an anime with too much plot development, and not enough action (of course, my whole taste for anime has changed a lot since then). As for the dubbing, you can't just listen to what other people say. Do you even know who the voice actor for Shishio is. He's a very proffessional VA, who, if I'm not mistaken, has voiced characters for various videogames before. Cowboy Bebop has the voice talent of Steven Jay Blum, who is arguably one of the best American voice actors ever. You can't just trust what other people say, but you actually have to watch something for yourself. For example, a lot of n00bs will say that Naruto is the best anime ever, but it doesn't mean that I have to believe them, and I am quite up to date with Naruto, and its really average. Anyways, that was just an example. The voice actors for most of the older anime, usually have had some sort of experience, whereas most of the new voice actors are people who have only done 1 or 2 voices (including the voice of the character that they are doing in the newer dub). I know from actually watching dubs from lots of the newer anime, that they are usually absolute crap. But, I would appreciate it if you could give me some links, to some of your sources. I know from looking at the cast, that most of the newere voice actors are very new to the field, and are highly unprofessional. Animation doesn't mean that much to me. Don't get me wrong, I love good animation, but if the story and characters are well developed, and if the show keeps you interested, then animation is not much of a problem for me. So, if you want to go on thinking that RK is not mature, then that is fine. However, as you can see from my post, it has many qualities that make it AS material. And the fact of the matter is that it didn't do to good in ratings with kids here, and that's a fact. Its also a fact that most of RK's fans are teenagers or older (over here in the U.S.; and also in various European and Western countires from what I've heard), and it has also attracted "many" older readers and viewers, in Japan, along with other Asian countries as well.

    First off, i would agree with you on certain aspects of character interaction. However, the character interaction is mostly lacking in complexity when a character is reacting to another. Sure, their actions are nuanced and original when they are unnaffected by other characters, but i have seen only one or two characters who really respond in a unique way to other characters.

    Most of my sources for opinions come from anime reviews from proffessional critics, one of whom said that the dub was ocasionally funny for the wrong reasons. I personally thought that the dub was very awkward in social situations (dubs are rarely awkward anywere else).

    I personally don't think Rurouni kenshin is mature, and i agree that many people do because personally, my expectations for a mature series are very different from most peoples. But i don't think that Rurouni Kenshin whold be a good Adult Swim show because it has a different flavor than most of what is on most of adult swim. This however, does not mean that teenagers and adults wouldn't enjoy it, because adult swim does not choose anime simply because it is good, they have their own flavor which they have created through their choices and Rurouni Kenshin does not supplement this flavor. However, considering its increadible originality, i don't think that Rurouni kenshin needs to be on adult swim to be considered a great series.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of twentymooseman

    twentymooseman

    [30]Aug 12, 2007
    • member since: 08/05/07
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 39
    the violence has more blood and gore in the kyoto arc. i'm surprised they put it on toonami with out editing out all the opium references.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of ensatsu-ken

    ensatsu-ken

    [31]Aug 12, 2007
    • member since: 10/24/06
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 6,686
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:

    My goal is not to make you agree with what i say, i am just trying to provide my opinion (sorry for stating opinions as facts), however, the comments on voice acting and animation are based of professional sources.

    By the way i have not read the manga but i am talking about the show, because i doubt AdultSwim woul ever have a segment where they broadcast manga.

    I will not argue any more because there is very little argument left that isn't based off opinion. That said, i just want to clear up some misconceptions with my meanings:

    1. by limited i mean that the characters aren't very original in the way they respond to other characters. Sure, they are very unique characters, but they are limited because their interaction with each other shows little distinction. For example, when characters express their opinions of the behavior of another character, they never insert their own individuality into their speach, rather, they talk as if it were just a common fact. The most original character is stiill very limited if they cannot easily distinguish themselves in normal conversation.

    2. first off, i hadn't heard that Yu Yu Hakusho was on Adult Swim but i do know that most of their shows have very good animation, and animation is actually quite important for the mood of a show. Also, the comments on voice acting are based of a lot of research i have done on modern shows. Also, when i said that modern anime has good voice acting I am only using recent anime as a relevent section of comparable media, i never meant that old anime had bad dubs. By the way, i watched the first episode with a friend who has watched anime quite a bit, however, I was forced to find something else to watch ten minutes in because of the voice acting.

    You keep mentioning the Enishi Revenge arc as being very mture, and from what i saw in the OVA I agree with you completely. However, it was not a part of the anime and i doubt they would put it in.

    I actually liked Rurouni kenshin quite a bit when i watched it and i still like it now. However, when i watched the series, i looked for depth and meaning in every moment of every episode, and found many themes, but the presentation and dialog always kept me from considering it a mature series.

    I don't beleive that i have to get approval for my reasons because i am not the same person as you are and as such my mind works differently and that is not something for me to rationalize.

    Like I said, its fine if that's your opinion, but I still disagree with it. As for being unoriginal, I would agree with you on certain characters, but for most characters, they usually interact very interestingly with other characters. As for Yu Yu Hakusho, CN originally started airing it on AS. Then they thought that it might do better with kids, so they took it off, and gave it a try on Toonami. It turns out that the ratings were even lower when they did that, and they ended up having to cancel airing the anime on Toonami, and just moved it to a spot at 5:30 in the morning, until it finished its run. The same thing happenned with Rurouni Kenshin (in that they aired in on Toonami, but it didn't end up becoming very popular with the number of viewings, because it was mainly kids from the ages of 8-14 who watched Toonami. I also remember watching it as a kid, and I can tell you that, back then, I did not like Ruoruni Kenshin, because I did not understand its references to the old Japanese government (and government is hardly a good kids topic/subject if you want it interesting for children), and of course I was a bit to narrrow in the type of shows I liked back then, so I thought that Rurouni Kenshin was an anime with too much plot development, and not enough action (of course, my whole taste for anime has changed a lot since then). As for the dubbing, you can't just listen to what other people say. Do you even know who the voice actor for Shishio is. He's a very proffessional VA, who, if I'm not mistaken, has voiced characters for various videogames before. Cowboy Bebop has the voice talent of Steven Jay Blum, who is arguably one of the best American voice actors ever. You can't just trust what other people say, but you actually have to watch something for yourself. For example, a lot of n00bs will say that Naruto is the best anime ever, but it doesn't mean that I have to believe them, and I am quite up to date with Naruto, and its really average. Anyways, that was just an example. The voice actors for most of the older anime, usually have had some sort of experience, whereas most of the new voice actors are people who have only done 1 or 2 voices (including the voice of the character that they are doing in the newer dub). I know from actually watching dubs from lots of the newer anime, that they are usually absolute crap. But, I would appreciate it if you could give me some links, to some of your sources. I know from looking at the cast, that most of the newere voice actors are very new to the field, and are highly unprofessional. Animation doesn't mean that much to me. Don't get me wrong, I love good animation, but if the story and characters are well developed, and if the show keeps you interested, then animation is not much of a problem for me. So, if you want to go on thinking that RK is not mature, then that is fine. However, as you can see from my post, it has many qualities that make it AS material. And the fact of the matter is that it didn't do to good in ratings with kids here, and that's a fact. Its also a fact that most of RK's fans are teenagers or older (over here in the U.S.; and also in various European and Western countires from what I've heard), and it has also attracted "many" older readers and viewers, in Japan, along with other Asian countries as well.

    First off, i would agree with you on certain aspects of character interaction. However, the character interaction is mostly lacking in complexity when a character is reacting to another. Sure, their actions are nuanced and original when they are unnaffected by other characters, but i have seen only one or two characters who really respond in a unique way to other characters.

    Most of my sources for opinions come from anime reviews from proffessional critics, one of whom said that the dub was ocasionally funny for the wrong reasons. I personally thought that the dub was very awkward in social situations (dubs are rarely awkward anywere else).

    I personally don't think Rurouni kenshin is mature, and i agree that many people do because personally, my expectations for a mature series are very different from most peoples. But i don't think that Rurouni Kenshin whold be a good Adult Swim show because it has a different flavor than most of what is on most of adult swim. This however, does not mean that teenagers and adults wouldn't enjoy it, because adult swim does not choose anime simply because it is good, they have their own flavor which they have created through their choices and Rurouni Kenshin does not supplement this flavor. However, considering its increadible originality, i don't think that Rurouni kenshin needs to be on adult swim to be considered a great series.



    First of all, anime critic reviews are some of the worst sources for an opinion. I have read many of them, and usually diagree with them very much. Anime critics, just like regular critics, will usually act in a snobby manner, and try to be more professional by giving shows that aren't groundbreaking or popular a lower rating, and they will give boring stuff like NGE a perfect score. First of all, I can't really agree with the way you judge anime, because it seems that you are going by critics reviews. I say: skrew the critics, I've never found a single critic review for an anime or a movie to be useful (I have however gone with critics review for videogames and manga, since those are usually actually acurate judgements). They are more concerned on whether something is artsy, rather than if its actually enteretaining (and Rurouni Kenshin is a truly entertaining series from start to finish, which is not something that's easy to do).

    Now I see what you're saying about RK, and I must say that I completely disagree with you about the characters. First of all, have you listened to what I said about how you can't listen to what other people say. Anyways, you have it completely the other way around. Rurouni Kenshin actually has some proffestional voice talent (such as the person who does Shishio's voice; and it just so happens that 90% of all newer dubs have terrible voice acting from people who have no experience, and sound more akward than any older dubbed anime that I have watched). The voices for Cowboy Bebop and Rurouni Kenshin were GREAT, and no stupid critic would be knowledgeable enough about dubs to tell you that. They don't care about the quality of an anime, as much as how fany their review looks (for example, one critic who wrote a review of Death Note, tried to make it look fancy be adding in lots of complex words that not even a movie critic would use that amount of; this person obviously tried to make him/herself look good, rather than actually explain the strengths and weaknesses of the anime, and I understood his review, so I could tell how bad, in terms of its quality, the review was, since it didn't touch on any of those points).

    Rurouni Kenshin's characters interact MUCH more maturely than most other anime that they show on AS. You have it completely backwards here as well. Characters from shows like Bleach and GitS act very predictably, and that includes their interaction between other characters. You have failed to annalyze how absolutely no anime on AS, not even FMA, has ever "built up" the releationships between its characters, as great as Rurouni Kenshin has. You say that you think differently than most people; well, I'm not most people myself. While I like anime such as Bleach, and although I love anime such as FMA, neither of them are as mature as people say. With Bleach, there is no sort of build up in relationships, but rather it just seems like its automatically there, which is highly unproffesional writing. With FMA, the life lessons and losses that the brothers learn and recieve, are deep and touching, but life lessons are the types of things that you would expect from a shounen, or a children's series.

    As for dubs, people always say that the FMA and Samurai Champloo dubs are great, and they are very good indeed. However, with FMA, while the voices all fit and sound believable, there is absolutely nothing done to make the character stand out, and after watching an episode, none of the lines will stay in my head. With Samurai Champloo, the voices sound very cool, and the voicing of Steven Jay Blum in this anime as well is great, however the types of voices you see in this anime doesn't fit a samurai anime at all. I do realize that this isn't meant to be a traditional anime, but rather an action anime about samurai, mixed with modern music with a modern rythem, however it still doesn't fit the tone of the anime, whereas the Japanese voices for that show sound a bit more fitting, but I don't speak Japanese, so I can't say that for sure. If they used their tones with more traditional language, or used a more old style tone with modern speech, then the English dubs for it would've sounded more fitting. Once again, I do like the dubs for SC, but they don't particularly fit the tone as well as RK does with its series. Rurouni Kenshin has voices that fits its characters, and stand out (in that I can immediately remember lines and voices very clearly, even weeks after I hear them).

    The bottom line is that my opinion still stands, and that I can't really agree with what you or anyone else sais about RK not being mature.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of GK-37

    GK-37

    [32]Aug 12, 2007
    • member since: 07/28/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 35
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:

    My goal is not to make you agree with what i say, i am just trying to provide my opinion (sorry for stating opinions as facts), however, the comments on voice acting and animation are based of professional sources.

    By the way i have not read the manga but i am talking about the show, because i doubt AdultSwim woul ever have a segment where they broadcast manga.

    I will not argue any more because there is very little argument left that isn't based off opinion. That said, i just want to clear up some misconceptions with my meanings:

    1. by limited i mean that the characters aren't very original in the way they respond to other characters. Sure, they are very unique characters, but they are limited because their interaction with each other shows little distinction. For example, when characters express their opinions of the behavior of another character, they never insert their own individuality into their speach, rather, they talk as if it were just a common fact. The most original character is stiill very limited if they cannot easily distinguish themselves in normal conversation.

    2. first off, i hadn't heard that Yu Yu Hakusho was on Adult Swim but i do know that most of their shows have very good animation, and animation is actually quite important for the mood of a show. Also, the comments on voice acting are based of a lot of research i have done on modern shows. Also, when i said that modern anime has good voice acting I am only using recent anime as a relevent section of comparable media, i never meant that old anime had bad dubs. By the way, i watched the first episode with a friend who has watched anime quite a bit, however, I was forced to find something else to watch ten minutes in because of the voice acting.

    You keep mentioning the Enishi Revenge arc as being very mture, and from what i saw in the OVA I agree with you completely. However, it was not a part of the anime and i doubt they would put it in.

    I actually liked Rurouni kenshin quite a bit when i watched it and i still like it now. However, when i watched the series, i looked for depth and meaning in every moment of every episode, and found many themes, but the presentation and dialog always kept me from considering it a mature series.

    I don't beleive that i have to get approval for my reasons because i am not the same person as you are and as such my mind works differently and that is not something for me to rationalize.

    Like I said, its fine if that's your opinion, but I still disagree with it. As for being unoriginal, I would agree with you on certain characters, but for most characters, they usually interact very interestingly with other characters. As for Yu Yu Hakusho, CN originally started airing it on AS. Then they thought that it might do better with kids, so they took it off, and gave it a try on Toonami. It turns out that the ratings were even lower when they did that, and they ended up having to cancel airing the anime on Toonami, and just moved it to a spot at 5:30 in the morning, until it finished its run. The same thing happenned with Rurouni Kenshin (in that they aired in on Toonami, but it didn't end up becoming very popular with the number of viewings, because it was mainly kids from the ages of 8-14 who watched Toonami. I also remember watching it as a kid, and I can tell you that, back then, I did not like Ruoruni Kenshin, because I did not understand its references to the old Japanese government (and government is hardly a good kids topic/subject if you want it interesting for children), and of course I was a bit to narrrow in the type of shows I liked back then, so I thought that Rurouni Kenshin was an anime with too much plot development, and not enough action (of course, my whole taste for anime has changed a lot since then). As for the dubbing, you can't just listen to what other people say. Do you even know who the voice actor for Shishio is. He's a very proffessional VA, who, if I'm not mistaken, has voiced characters for various videogames before. Cowboy Bebop has the voice talent of Steven Jay Blum, who is arguably one of the best American voice actors ever. You can't just trust what other people say, but you actually have to watch something for yourself. For example, a lot of n00bs will say that Naruto is the best anime ever, but it doesn't mean that I have to believe them, and I am quite up to date with Naruto, and its really average. Anyways, that was just an example. The voice actors for most of the older anime, usually have had some sort of experience, whereas most of the new voice actors are people who have only done 1 or 2 voices (including the voice of the character that they are doing in the newer dub). I know from actually watching dubs from lots of the newer anime, that they are usually absolute crap. But, I would appreciate it if you could give me some links, to some of your sources. I know from looking at the cast, that most of the newere voice actors are very new to the field, and are highly unprofessional. Animation doesn't mean that much to me. Don't get me wrong, I love good animation, but if the story and characters are well developed, and if the show keeps you interested, then animation is not much of a problem for me. So, if you want to go on thinking that RK is not mature, then that is fine. However, as you can see from my post, it has many qualities that make it AS material. And the fact of the matter is that it didn't do to good in ratings with kids here, and that's a fact. Its also a fact that most of RK's fans are teenagers or older (over here in the U.S.; and also in various European and Western countires from what I've heard), and it has also attracted "many" older readers and viewers, in Japan, along with other Asian countries as well.

    First off, i would agree with you on certain aspects of character interaction. However, the character interaction is mostly lacking in complexity when a character is reacting to another. Sure, their actions are nuanced and original when they are unnaffected by other characters, but i have seen only one or two characters who really respond in a unique way to other characters.

    Most of my sources for opinions come from anime reviews from proffessional critics, one of whom said that the dub was ocasionally funny for the wrong reasons. I personally thought that the dub was very awkward in social situations (dubs are rarely awkward anywere else).

    I personally don't think Rurouni kenshin is mature, and i agree that many people do because personally, my expectations for a mature series are very different from most peoples. But i don't think that Rurouni Kenshin whold be a good Adult Swim show because it has a different flavor than most of what is on most of adult swim. This however, does not mean that teenagers and adults wouldn't enjoy it, because adult swim does not choose anime simply because it is good, they have their own flavor which they have created through their choices and Rurouni Kenshin does not supplement this flavor. However, considering its increadible originality, i don't think that Rurouni kenshin needs to be on adult swim to be considered a great series.

    First of all, anime critic reviews are some of the worst sources for an opinion. I have read many of them, and usually diagree with them very much. Anime critics, just like regular critics, will usually act in a snobby manner, and try to be more professional by giving shows that aren't groundbreaking or popular a lower rating, and they will give boring stuff like NGE a perfect score. First of all, I can't really agree with the way you judge anime, because it seems that you are going by critics reviews. I say: skrew the critics, I've never found a single critic review for an anime or a movie to be useful (I have however gone with critics review for videogames and manga, since those are usually actually acurate judgements). They are more concerned on whether something is artsy, rather than if its actually enteretaining (and Rurouni Kenshin is a truly entertaining series from start to finish, which is not something that's easy to do). Now I see what you're saying about RK, and I must say that I completely disagree with you about the characters. First of all, have you listened to what I said about how you can't listen to what other people say. Anyways, you have it completely the other way around. Rurouni Kenshin actually has some proffestional voice talent (such as the person who does Shishio's voice; and it just so happens that 90% of all newer dubs have terrible voice acting from people who have no experience, and sound more akward than any older dubbed anime that I have watched). The voices for Cowboy Bebop and Rurouni Kenshin were GREAT, and no stupid critic would be knowledgeable enough about dubs to tell you that. They don't care about the quality of an anime, as much as how fany their review looks (for example, one critic who wrote a review of Death Note, tried to make it look fancy be adding in lots of complex words that not even a movie critic would use that amount of; this person obviously tried to make him/herself look good, rather than actually explain the strengths and weaknesses of the anime, and I understood his review, so I could tell how bad, in terms of its quality, the review was, since it didn't touch on any of those points). Rurouni Kenshin's characters interact MUCH more maturely than most other anime that they show on AS. You have it completely backwards here as well. Characters from shows like Bleach and GitS act very predictably, and that includes their interaction between other characters. You have failed to annalyze how absolutely no anime on AS, not even FMA, has ever "built up" the releationships between its characters, as great as Rurouni Kenshin has. You say that you think differently than most people; well, I'm not most people myself. While I like anime such as Bleach, and although I love anime such as FMA, neither of them are as mature as people say. With Bleach, there is no sort of build up in relationships, but rather it just seems like its automatically there, which is highly unproffesional writing. With FMA, the life lessons and losses that the brothers learn and recieve, are deep and touching, but life lessons are the types of things that you would expect from a shounen, or a children's series. As for dubs, people always say that the FMA and Samurai Champloo dubs are great, and they are very good indeed. However, with FMA, while the voices all fit and sound believable, there is absolutely nothing done to make the character stand out, and after watching an episode, none of the lines will stay in my head. With Samurai Champloo, the voices sound very cool, and the voicing of Steven Jay Blum in this anime as well is great, however the types of voices you see in this anime doesn't fit a samurai anime at all. I do realize that this isn't meant to be a traditional anime, but rather an action anime about samurai, mixed with modern music with a modern rythem, however it still doesn't fit the tone of the anime, whereas the Japanese voices for that show sound a bit more fitting, but I don't speak Japanese, so I can't say that for sure. If they used their tones with more traditional language, or used a more old style tone with modern speech, then the English dubs for it would've sounded more fitting. Once again, I do like the dubs for SC, but they don't particularly fit the tone as well as RK does with its series. Rurouni Kenshin has voices that fits its characters, and stand out (in that I can immediately remember lines and voices very clearly, even weeks after I hear them). The bottom line is that my opinion still stands, and that I can't really agree with what you or anyone else sais about RK not being mature.

    First of all, i personally disliked the dubbing more than any reviewer (although it is more because of the dialog and not the voices. besides voices are just sounds that bring the genius of whell crafted dialog to us), also, Rurouni Kenshin received a better score than NGE when all reviews were taken into account. I personally disagree with you about Samurai Champloo because the modern sounding speech is a part of the setting (which isn't supposed to be realistic). Personally, i beleive that the relationships aren't that deep, but i would appreciate if you told me about the two charaters who you think have the deepest relationship in case i have thought wrong. Lastly, i am only using "i think differently from other people" to rationalize my opinions as a result of my unique mindset and not having anything to do with any sort of ignorance of my own.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of meb955

    meb955

    [33]Aug 13, 2007
    • member since: 11/03/05
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 371

    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    CN never aired the Christian arc, nor any of the other fillers that came after the Kyoto arc, if I remember correctly. Also, Trigun started out as a manga for young adult males, or in other words, teenagers . Its classified as a seinen, but my point was that the anime wasn't all that mature from what I've seen of it, yet it was able to make its way onto AS. BTW, is NGE good, because I keep hearing all of these mixed opinions on it. Is it just one of those anime that people go crazy over, because its supposed to be all deep and stuff, or does it actually have some sort of entertainment value to it, that makes it actually fun to watch ? I'm just curious about that, because I saw the first episode awhile ago, and it was a bit of a turnoff, in that nothing exciting happenned, and it was overall, just boring and painful for me to watch. So, does the show actually get any better?

    not to interrupt your ongoing battle here with gk-37 (well, yes, to interrupt it briefly, at least), a couple of points:

    cartoon network never aired the third season of kenshin, not even the first stand-alone eps. i always suspected (and debated on the adult swim board while the series was being aired) that the christian arc was why it was not shown (after all, cn also deleated a first season ep with a possible swastika in it). it certainly wasn't due to ep quality, considering what the network continues to air.

    secondly, you will likely never find two fans who agree about nge. i enjoyed most of it, depite holding shinji in complete contempt. the ideas were deep, the action wasn't too formulaic and the plot (until the end) actually went somewhere. and it is fought over as much as it is because nge is generallyaccepted as a milestone for japanese anime.it does take a bit to get rolling, but it rarely lets up after that. until the ending, which needed three attempts and even then was pretty lame (personal opinion). and now it looks like they are going to do the ending yet again. aaauuuurrrrrghhh!!

    btw, you might want to check out the manga of nge at your local library to see if it holds any interest for you. the manga does deviate from the anime somewhat (more later in the series), but follows it fairly well and would give you a free look at the storyline. you might also have fun with "angel days," the alt-universe nge out in manga now.

    edit: blast this forum's poor formating tools.

    Edited on 08/13/2007 10:03am
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of ensatsu-ken

    ensatsu-ken

    [34]Aug 14, 2007
    • member since: 10/24/06
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 6,686
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:

    My goal is not to make you agree with what i say, i am just trying to provide my opinion (sorry for stating opinions as facts), however, the comments on voice acting and animation are based of professional sources.

    By the way i have not read the manga but i am talking about the show, because i doubt AdultSwim woul ever have a segment where they broadcast manga.

    I will not argue any more because there is very little argument left that isn't based off opinion. That said, i just want to clear up some misconceptions with my meanings:

    1. by limited i mean that the characters aren't very original in the way they respond to other characters. Sure, they are very unique characters, but they are limited because their interaction with each other shows little distinction. For example, when characters express their opinions of the behavior of another character, they never insert their own individuality into their speach, rather, they talk as if it were just a common fact. The most original character is stiill very limited if they cannot easily distinguish themselves in normal conversation.

    2. first off, i hadn't heard that Yu Yu Hakusho was on Adult Swim but i do know that most of their shows have very good animation, and animation is actually quite important for the mood of a show. Also, the comments on voice acting are based of a lot of research i have done on modern shows. Also, when i said that modern anime has good voice acting I am only using recent anime as a relevent section of comparable media, i never meant that old anime had bad dubs. By the way, i watched the first episode with a friend who has watched anime quite a bit, however, I was forced to find something else to watch ten minutes in because of the voice acting.

    You keep mentioning the Enishi Revenge arc as being very mture, and from what i saw in the OVA I agree with you completely. However, it was not a part of the anime and i doubt they would put it in.

    I actually liked Rurouni kenshin quite a bit when i watched it and i still like it now. However, when i watched the series, i looked for depth and meaning in every moment of every episode, and found many themes, but the presentation and dialog always kept me from considering it a mature series.

    I don't beleive that i have to get approval for my reasons because i am not the same person as you are and as such my mind works differently and that is not something for me to rationalize.

    Like I said, its fine if that's your opinion, but I still disagree with it. As for being unoriginal, I would agree with you on certain characters, but for most characters, they usually interact very interestingly with other characters. As for Yu Yu Hakusho, CN originally started airing it on AS. Then they thought that it might do better with kids, so they took it off, and gave it a try on Toonami. It turns out that the ratings were even lower when they did that, and they ended up having to cancel airing the anime on Toonami, and just moved it to a spot at 5:30 in the morning, until it finished its run. The same thing happenned with Rurouni Kenshin (in that they aired in on Toonami, but it didn't end up becoming very popular with the number of viewings, because it was mainly kids from the ages of 8-14 who watched Toonami. I also remember watching it as a kid, and I can tell you that, back then, I did not like Ruoruni Kenshin, because I did not understand its references to the old Japanese government (and government is hardly a good kids topic/subject if you want it interesting for children), and of course I was a bit to narrrow in the type of shows I liked back then, so I thought that Rurouni Kenshin was an anime with too much plot development, and not enough action (of course, my whole taste for anime has changed a lot since then). As for the dubbing, you can't just listen to what other people say. Do you even know who the voice actor for Shishio is. He's a very proffessional VA, who, if I'm not mistaken, has voiced characters for various videogames before. Cowboy Bebop has the voice talent of Steven Jay Blum, who is arguably one of the best American voice actors ever. You can't just trust what other people say, but you actually have to watch something for yourself. For example, a lot of n00bs will say that Naruto is the best anime ever, but it doesn't mean that I have to believe them, and I am quite up to date with Naruto, and its really average. Anyways, that was just an example. The voice actors for most of the older anime, usually have had some sort of experience, whereas most of the new voice actors are people who have only done 1 or 2 voices (including the voice of the character that they are doing in the newer dub). I know from actually watching dubs from lots of the newer anime, that they are usually absolute crap. But, I would appreciate it if you could give me some links, to some of your sources. I know from looking at the cast, that most of the newere voice actors are very new to the field, and are highly unprofessional. Animation doesn't mean that much to me. Don't get me wrong, I love good animation, but if the story and characters are well developed, and if the show keeps you interested, then animation is not much of a problem for me. So, if you want to go on thinking that RK is not mature, then that is fine. However, as you can see from my post, it has many qualities that make it AS material. And the fact of the matter is that it didn't do to good in ratings with kids here, and that's a fact. Its also a fact that most of RK's fans are teenagers or older (over here in the U.S.; and also in various European and Western countires from what I've heard), and it has also attracted "many" older readers and viewers, in Japan, along with other Asian countries as well.

    First off, i would agree with you on certain aspects of character interaction. However, the character interaction is mostly lacking in complexity when a character is reacting to another. Sure, their actions are nuanced and original when they are unnaffected by other characters, but i have seen only one or two characters who really respond in a unique way to other characters.

    Most of my sources for opinions come from anime reviews from proffessional critics, one of whom said that the dub was ocasionally funny for the wrong reasons. I personally thought that the dub was very awkward in social situations (dubs are rarely awkward anywere else).

    I personally don't think Rurouni kenshin is mature, and i agree that many people do because personally, my expectations for a mature series are very different from most peoples. But i don't think that Rurouni Kenshin whold be a good Adult Swim show because it has a different flavor than most of what is on most of adult swim. This however, does not mean that teenagers and adults wouldn't enjoy it, because adult swim does not choose anime simply because it is good, they have their own flavor which they have created through their choices and Rurouni Kenshin does not supplement this flavor. However, considering its increadible originality, i don't think that Rurouni kenshin needs to be on adult swim to be considered a great series.

    First of all, anime critic reviews are some of the worst sources for an opinion. I have read many of them, and usually diagree with them very much. Anime critics, just like regular critics, will usually act in a snobby manner, and try to be more professional by giving shows that aren't groundbreaking or popular a lower rating, and they will give boring stuff like NGE a perfect score. First of all, I can't really agree with the way you judge anime, because it seems that you are going by critics reviews. I say: skrew the critics, I've never found a single critic review for an anime or a movie to be useful (I have however gone with critics review for videogames and manga, since those are usually actually acurate judgements). They are more concerned on whether something is artsy, rather than if its actually enteretaining (and Rurouni Kenshin is a truly entertaining series from start to finish, which is not something that's easy to do). Now I see what you're saying about RK, and I must say that I completely disagree with you about the characters. First of all, have you listened to what I said about how you can't listen to what other people say. Anyways, you have it completely the other way around. Rurouni Kenshin actually has some proffestional voice talent (such as the person who does Shishio's voice; and it just so happens that 90% of all newer dubs have terrible voice acting from people who have no experience, and sound more akward than any older dubbed anime that I have watched). The voices for Cowboy Bebop and Rurouni Kenshin were GREAT, and no stupid critic would be knowledgeable enough about dubs to tell you that. They don't care about the quality of an anime, as much as how fany their review looks (for example, one critic who wrote a review of Death Note, tried to make it look fancy be adding in lots of complex words that not even a movie critic would use that amount of; this person obviously tried to make him/herself look good, rather than actually explain the strengths and weaknesses of the anime, and I understood his review, so I could tell how bad, in terms of its quality, the review was, since it didn't touch on any of those points). Rurouni Kenshin's characters interact MUCH more maturely than most other anime that they show on AS. You have it completely backwards here as well. Characters from shows like Bleach and GitS act very predictably, and that includes their interaction between other characters. You have failed to annalyze how absolutely no anime on AS, not even FMA, has ever "built up" the releationships between its characters, as great as Rurouni Kenshin has. You say that you think differently than most people; well, I'm not most people myself. While I like anime such as Bleach, and although I love anime such as FMA, neither of them are as mature as people say. With Bleach, there is no sort of build up in relationships, but rather it just seems like its automatically there, which is highly unproffesional writing. With FMA, the life lessons and losses that the brothers learn and recieve, are deep and touching, but life lessons are the types of things that you would expect from a shounen, or a children's series. As for dubs, people always say that the FMA and Samurai Champloo dubs are great, and they are very good indeed. However, with FMA, while the voices all fit and sound believable, there is absolutely nothing done to make the character stand out, and after watching an episode, none of the lines will stay in my head. With Samurai Champloo, the voices sound very cool, and the voicing of Steven Jay Blum in this anime as well is great, however the types of voices you see in this anime doesn't fit a samurai anime at all. I do realize that this isn't meant to be a traditional anime, but rather an action anime about samurai, mixed with modern music with a modern rythem, however it still doesn't fit the tone of the anime, whereas the Japanese voices for that show sound a bit more fitting, but I don't speak Japanese, so I can't say that for sure. If they used their tones with more traditional language, or used a more old style tone with modern speech, then the English dubs for it would've sounded more fitting. Once again, I do like the dubs for SC, but they don't particularly fit the tone as well as RK does with its series. Rurouni Kenshin has voices that fits its characters, and stand out (in that I can immediately remember lines and voices very clearly, even weeks after I hear them). The bottom line is that my opinion still stands, and that I can't really agree with what you or anyone else sais about RK not being mature.

    First of all, i personally disliked the dubbing more than any reviewer (although it is more because of the dialog and not the voices. besides voices are just sounds that bring the genius of whell crafted dialog to us), also, Rurouni Kenshin received a better score than NGE when all reviews were taken into account. I personally disagree with you about Samurai Champloo because the modern sounding speech is a part of the setting (which isn't supposed to be realistic). Personally, i beleive that the relationships aren't that deep, but i would appreciate if you told me about the two charaters who you think have the deepest relationship in case i have thought wrong. Lastly, i am only using "i think differently from other people" to rationalize my opinions as a result of my unique mindset and not having anything to do with any sort of ignorance of my own.



    I have to disagree with everything you've said once again. The dialouge was great in RK. Its the newere anime that hardly add any substand to their dialouge. In fact, I've already explained to you how difficult it is to have a great dialouge, but with the same meaning as the Japanese script held withing it, while its still very understandable for American viewers, and how it can it increases the overall quality of the dub. Did you even bother to read my paragraph on that ? No offense, but you seem to have ignored everything I've said against you on dubbing so far, and used what other viewers say as a source. Also, now that you have actually said that you find the dubs to be bad, I'd like some more specific reasons why. Also, have you tried dubbing yourself, its not in the slightest bit as easy as some people think it is. It takes talent, which the VAs of RK have. Kenshin's voice and dialouge are done perfectly. In Samurai Champloo, that sort of dialouge shouldn't really be mixed with a Samurai anime in the first place, but even then, I never said it sounded bad, just out of place. Still, SC is far from being as great a dub as older ones, such as Cowboy Bebop. Not to mention that the VAs of RK put so much more substance and emotions into voicing their characters (and I know about lots of dubs, so don't bother questioning me on this). Newere dubs such as Bleach, as well as GitS, lack this feature. You apparently don't recognize any of the good qualities of RK's dub (either that, or you like arguing ). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be offensive here, but you can ask others about the RK dub (who have actually seen more than just a few dubbed episodes). "Most" people would back me up on this (although, there are some people who dislike the RK dubs, even though they've seen a lot of it, but those people ususally hate dubbing in general).

    Kenshin's relationship with Kauru (they actually get married by the end of the series; although that's in the manga). Megumi's feelings for Kenshin develop very well. Yahiko, and how he views/sees Kenshin. The friendship between Kenshin and Sansosuke (in the manga this fluctuatates). Saito's view of Kenshin, and how he ends up allying with him, even though he would never admit it (and that's not just in the Kyoto arc, but since we're only referring to the anime here, it is). Sanosuke's feelings for the Christian woman (from the fillers; I can't recall her name right now). These are relationships that are brilliantly built up. While they may be obvious, the way its build and grows stronger over time shows how much deeper it is than in other series. For example, in FMA, Ed and Al already had a stronger brotherly releationship, as well as good relationship with their teacher, and with Winry. However, there was never any build-up of relationships shown, as it was in Rurouni Kenshin. Also, as for disagreeing on me, of course you're going to disagree with me on just about everything if we're having an argument over the maturity of RK. BTW, as for RK not being AS material, with animation and maturity issues, please explain to me how it cannot be on AS, when shows such as Shin-chan and Astro Boy (the original black and white one), which have very poor quality animation, and which are both meant for children, are found on AS .
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of GK-37

    GK-37

    [35]Aug 17, 2007
    • member since: 07/28/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 35
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:
    ensatsu-ken wrote:
    GK-37 wrote:

    My goal is not to make you agree with what i say, i am just trying to provide my opinion (sorry for stating opinions as facts), however, the comments on voice acting and animation are based of professional sources.

    By the way i have not read the manga but i am talking about the show, because i doubt AdultSwim woul ever have a segment where they broadcast manga.

    I will not argue any more because there is very little argument left that isn't based off opinion. That said, i just want to clear up some misconceptions with my meanings:

    1. by limited i mean that the characters aren't very original in the way they respond to other characters. Sure, they are very unique characters, but they are limited because their interaction with each other shows little distinction. For example, when characters express their opinions of the behavior of another character, they never insert their own individuality into their speach, rather, they talk as if it were just a common fact. The most original character is stiill very limited if they cannot easily distinguish themselves in normal conversation.

    2. first off, i hadn't heard that Yu Yu Hakusho was on Adult Swim but i do know that most of their shows have very good animation, and animation is actually quite important for the mood of a show. Also, the comments on voice acting are based of a lot of research i have done on modern shows. Also, when i said that modern anime has good voice acting I am only using recent anime as a relevent section of comparable media, i never meant that old anime had bad dubs. By the way, i watched the first episode with a friend who has watched anime quite a bit, however, I was forced to find something else to watch ten minutes in because of the voice acting.

    You keep mentioning the Enishi Revenge arc as being very mture, and from what i saw in the OVA I agree with you completely. However, it was not a part of the anime and i doubt they would put it in.

    I actually liked Rurouni kenshin quite a bit when i watched it and i still like it now. However, when i watched the series, i looked for depth and meaning in every moment of every episode, and found many themes, but the presentation and dialog always kept me from considering it a mature series.

    I don't beleive that i have to get approval for my reasons because i am not the same person as you are and as such my mind works differently and that is not something for me to rationalize.

    Like I said, its fine if that's your opinion, but I still disagree with it. As for being unoriginal, I would agree with you on certain characters, but for most characters, they usually interact very interestingly with other characters. As for Yu Yu Hakusho, CN originally started airing it on AS. Then they thought that it might do better with kids, so they took it off, and gave it a try on Toonami. It turns out that the ratings were even lower when they did that, and they ended up having to cancel airing the anime on Toonami, and just moved it to a spot at 5:30 in the morning, until it finished its run. The same thing happenned with Rurouni Kenshin (in that they aired in on Toonami, but it didn't end up becoming very popular with the number of viewings, because it was mainly kids from the ages of 8-14 who watched Toonami. I also remember watching it as a kid, and I can tell you that, back then, I did not like Ruoruni Kenshin, because I did not understand its references to the old Japanese government (and government is hardly a good kids topic/subject if you want it interesting for children), and of course I was a bit to narrrow in the type of shows I liked back then, so I thought that Rurouni Kenshin was an anime with too much plot development, and not enough action (of course, my whole taste for anime has changed a lot since then). As for the dubbing, you can't just listen to what other people say. Do you even know who the voice actor for Shishio is. He's a very proffessional VA, who, if I'm not mistaken, has voiced characters for various videogames before. Cowboy Bebop has the voice talent of Steven Jay Blum, who is arguably one of the best American voice actors ever. You can't just trust what other people say, but you actually have to watch something for yourself. For example, a lot of n00bs will say that Naruto is the best anime ever, but it doesn't mean that I have to believe them, and I am quite up to date with Naruto, and its really average. Anyways, that was just an example. The voice actors for most of the older anime, usually have had some sort of experience, whereas most of the new voice actors are people who have only done 1 or 2 voices (including the voice of the character that they are doing in the newer dub). I know from actually watching dubs from lots of the newer anime, that they are usually absolute crap. But, I would appreciate it if you could give me some links, to some of your sources. I know from looking at the cast, that most of the newere voice actors are very new to the field, and are highly unprofessional. Animation doesn't mean that much to me. Don't get me wrong, I love good animation, but if the story and characters are well developed, and if the show keeps you interested, then animation is not much of a problem for me. So, if you want to go on thinking that RK is not mature, then that is fine. However, as you can see from my post, it has many qualities that make it AS material. And the fact of the matter is that it didn't do to good in ratings with kids here, and that's a fact. Its also a fact that most of RK's fans are teenagers or older (over here in the U.S.; and also in various European and Western countires from what I've heard), and it has also attracted "many" older readers and viewers, in Japan, along with other Asian countries as well.

    First off, i would agree with you on certain aspects of character interaction. However, the character interaction is mostly lacking in complexity when a character is reacting to another. Sure, their actions are nuanced and original when they are unnaffected by other characters, but i have seen only one or two characters who really respond in a unique way to other characters.

    Most of my sources for opinions come from anime reviews from proffessional critics, one of whom said that the dub was ocasionally funny for the wrong reasons. I personally thought that the dub was very awkward in social situations (dubs are rarely awkward anywere else).

    I personally don't think Rurouni kenshin is mature, and i agree that many people do because personally, my expectations for a mature series are very different from most peoples. But i don't think that Rurouni Kenshin whold be a good Adult Swim show because it has a different flavor than most of what is on most of adult swim. This however, does not mean that teenagers and adults wouldn't enjoy it, because adult swim does not choose anime simply because it is good, they have their own flavor which they have created through their choices and Rurouni Kenshin does not supplement this flavor. However, considering its increadible originality, i don't think that Rurouni kenshin needs to be on adult swim to be considered a great series.

    First of all, anime critic reviews are some of the worst sources for an opinion. I have read many of them, and usually diagree with them very much. Anime critics, just like regular critics, will usually act in a snobby manner, and try to be more professional by giving shows that aren't groundbreaking or popular a lower rating, and they will give boring stuff like NGE a perfect score. First of all, I can't really agree with the way you judge anime, because it seems that you are going by critics reviews. I say: skrew the critics, I've never found a single critic review for an anime or a movie to be useful (I have however gone with critics review for videogames and manga, since those are usually actually acurate judgements). They are more concerned on whether something is artsy, rather than if its actually enteretaining (and Rurouni Kenshin is a truly entertaining series from start to finish, which is not something that's easy to do). Now I see what you're saying about RK, and I must say that I completely disagree with you about the characters. First of all, have you listened to what I said about how you can't listen to what other people say. Anyways, you have it completely the other way around. Rurouni Kenshin actually has some proffestional voice talent (such as the person who does Shishio's voice; and it just so happens that 90% of all newer dubs have terrible voice acting from people who have no experience, and sound more akward than any older dubbed anime that I have watched). The voices for Cowboy Bebop and Rurouni Kenshin were GREAT, and no stupid critic would be knowledgeable enough about dubs to tell you that. They don't care about the quality of an anime, as much as how fany their review looks (for example, one critic who wrote a review of Death Note, tried to make it look fancy be adding in lots of complex words that not even a movie critic would use that amount of; this person obviously tried to make him/herself look good, rather than actually explain the strengths and weaknesses of the anime, and I understood his review, so I could tell how bad, in terms of its quality, the review was, since it didn't touch on any of those points). Rurouni Kenshin's characters interact MUCH more maturely than most other anime that they show on AS. You have it completely backwards here as well. Characters from shows like Bleach and GitS act very predictably, and that includes their interaction between other characters. You have failed to annalyze how absolutely no anime on AS, not even FMA, has ever "built up" the releationships between its characters, as great as Rurouni Kenshin has. You say that you think differently than most people; well, I'm not most people myself. While I like anime such as Bleach, and although I love anime such as FMA, neither of them are as mature as people say. With Bleach, there is no sort of build up in relationships, but rather it just seems like its automatically there, which is highly unproffesional writing. With FMA, the life lessons and losses that the brothers learn and recieve, are deep and touching, but life lessons are the types of things that you would expect from a shounen, or a children's series. As for dubs, people always say that the FMA and Samurai Champloo dubs are great, and they are very good indeed. However, with FMA, while the voices all fit and sound believable, there is absolutely nothing done to make the character stand out, and after watching an episode, none of the lines will stay in my head. With Samurai Champloo, the voices sound very cool, and the voicing of Steven Jay Blum in this anime as well is great, however the types of voices you see in this anime doesn't fit a samurai anime at all. I do realize that this isn't meant to be a traditional anime, but rather an action anime about samurai, mixed with modern music with a modern rythem, however it still doesn't fit the tone of the anime, whereas the Japanese voices for that show sound a bit more fitting, but I don't speak Japanese, so I can't say that for sure. If they used their tones with more traditional language, or used a more old style tone with modern speech, then the English dubs for it would've sounded more fitting. Once again, I do like the dubs for SC, but they don't particularly fit the tone as well as RK does with its series. Rurouni Kenshin has voices that fits its characters, and stand out (in that I can immediately remember lines and voices very clearly, even weeks after I hear them). The bottom line is that my opinion still stands, and that I can't really agree with what you or anyone else sais about RK not being mature.

    First of all, i personally disliked the dubbing more than any reviewer (although it is more because of the dialog and not the voices. besides voices are just sounds that bring the genius of whell crafted dialog to us), also, Rurouni Kenshin received a better score than NGE when all reviews were taken into account. I personally disagree with you about Samurai Champloo because the modern sounding speech is a part of the setting (which isn't supposed to be realistic). Personally, i beleive that the relationships aren't that deep, but i would appreciate if you told me about the two charaters who you think have the deepest relationship in case i have thought wrong. Lastly, i am only using "i think differently from other people" to rationalize my opinions as a result of my unique mindset and not having anything to do with any sort of ignorance of my own.

    I have to disagree with everything you've said once again. The dialouge was great in RK. Its the newere anime that hardly add any substand to their dialouge. In fact, I've already explained to you how difficult it is to have a great dialouge, but with the same meaning as the Japanese script held withing it, while its still very understandable for American viewers, and how it can it increases the overall quality of the dub. Did you even bother to read my paragraph on that ? No offense, but you seem to have ignored everything I've said against you on dubbing so far, and used what other viewers say as a source. Also, now that you have actually said that you find the dubs to be bad, I'd like some more specific reasons why. Also, have you tried dubbing yourself, its not in the slightest bit as easy as some people think it is. It takes talent, which the VAs of RK have. Kenshin's voice and dialouge are done perfectly. In Samurai Champloo, that sort of dialouge shouldn't really be mixed with a Samurai anime in the first place, but even then, I never said it sounded bad, just out of place. Still, SC is far from being as great a dub as older ones, such as Cowboy Bebop. Not to mention that the VAs of RK put so much more substance and emotions into voicing their characters (and I know about lots of dubs, so don't bother questioning me on this). Newere dubs such as Bleach, as well as GitS, lack this feature. You apparently don't recognize any of the good qualities of RK's dub (either that, or you like arguing ). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be offensive here, but you can ask others about the RK dub (who have actually seen more than just a few dubbed episodes). "Most" people would back me up on this (although, there are some people who dislike the RK dubs, even though they've seen a lot of it, but those people ususally hate dubbing in general). Kenshin's relationship with Kauru (they actually get married by the end of the series; although that's in the manga). Megumi's feelings for Kenshin develop very well. Yahiko, and how he views/sees Kenshin. The friendship between Kenshin and Sansosuke (in the manga this fluctuatates). Saito's view of Kenshin, and how he ends up allying with him, even though he would never admit it (and that's not just in the Kyoto arc, but since we're only referring to the anime here, it is). Sanosuke's feelings for the Christian woman (from the fillers; I can't recall her name right now). These are relationships that are brilliantly built up. While they may be obvious, the way its build and grows stronger over time shows how much deeper it is than in other series. For example, in FMA, Ed and Al already had a stronger brotherly releationship, as well as good relationship with their teacher, and with Winry. However, there was never any build-up of relationships shown, as it was in Rurouni Kenshin. Also, as for disagreeing on me, of course you're going to disagree with me on just about everything if we're having an argument over the maturity of RK. BTW, as for RK not being AS material, with animation and maturity issues, please explain to me how it cannot be on AS, when shows such as Shin-chan and Astro Boy (the original black and white one), which have very poor quality animation, and which are both meant for children, are found on AS .

    Most of my problems with the dialog resulted from the dub's tendency towards repetition. Often characters would say things multiple times consecutively. This makes the people sound over serious and imature at the same time and really bothers me. Most adult oriented anime series don't do that. Also, the dialog is realy quite preachy most of the time, which makes it sound immature (all of these observations are my own by the way).

    As for Shin Chan, it works because it is a comedy and there are plenty of chances to swear. There aren't reasons for removing comedies for animation quality. And Astroboy is a classic, it doesn't need to be mature or beutifull.

    I will admit Rurouni Kenshin has a lot of well developed relationships, but that is mostly because it has less plot per episode than most series (aside from Naruto). Besides, the characters are much deeper in FMA, and Bleach is realy fast paced. So they don't have as much time too develop relationships. Also, I have personaly seen most of the character relationships of Rurouni kenshin in other places before.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of ensatsu-ken

    ensatsu-ken

    [36]Aug 17, 2007
    • member since: 10/24/06
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 6,686

    Alright, its apparent to me that we will never come to an agreement on this debate, so instead, I will just do what anubis145 did, and say: "Lets just agree to disagree" .

    But, just for the record, I can understand you when you talk about the FMA characters, but are you actually calling the Bleach characters deeper than the RK characters. First of all, the FMA characters aren't exactly the deepest characters that I've seen, and I count them as equal to RK characters as far as depth goes. However, Bleach and Naruto characters are so average, its not even funny. You really need to see a lot more anime, if you consdier Bleach characters to be deep, because I have seen much of Bleach, and the characters are some of the most predictable, and average, that I have seen in shounen (and I have gone into this in detail, in various other threads on other forums).

    One more, thing, Rurouni Kenshin covers far more plot in one episode, than almost any other shounen anime does. Naruto drags out its fights for multiple episodes, and its story goes nowhere for several epsiodes. Bleach is almost exactly the same, with just a little bit more plot, and a little bit less fighting (thankfully). Ruoruni Kenshin has short, yet meaningful duels, and the plot is the main focus of the anime. Have you really paid any attention to what was going on in the episodes. Also, please give me an example, of how the dialouge is reppettative, because I fail to see what you mean. If you want to go into reppeattive, series like Inu-Yasha (which also aired on AS), are horribly reppeatative, and the plot usually goes nowhere. And for the record, many of the characters on Bleach and Naruto, lack the common maturity of adult characters, which you mainly find on Rurouni Kenshin. And please explain to me how Rurouni Kenshin isn't as mature as Bleach, when it has attracted so many older readers, whereas in Japan, its usually only younger children who read Bleach (This, is in response to what you said about Bleach being more mature than RK). And do you realize that you have completely contradicted yourself by saying that Astro Boy doesn't need to be mature to be on AS ? RK, first of all, is far more mature than Bleach, and that is something that you can never convince anyone otherwise about. It is equal in maturits to FMA, IMO, and that is from seeing both series. Also, regarding the fillers, the Christian arc was never aired, because they believed religious conflicts would not be a good subject for American children, which is why they never aired that arc on Toonami (and they never aired the rest of the third season either).

    And, just for the record, RK is a far more intense and thrilling series than most of the series that I have ever seen on AS (with the exception of a few). It keeps you entertained all the way up until the end of the Kyoto arc, and it actually takes care in developing the story, while keeping viewers glued to their seats in anticipation, which is something that you would not find in a mere children's show.

    So, like I said, its clear that we will never come to an agreement on this, so that is why I believe we should just end this argument at a stand-still.

    Edited on 08/17/2007 7:06pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of dfoboost

    dfoboost

    [37]Aug 18, 2007
    • member since: 05/21/07
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 120
    nope
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of dfoboost

    dfoboost

    [38]Aug 18, 2007
    • member since: 05/21/07
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 120
    I wish it was though
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of GK-37

    GK-37

    [39]Aug 24, 2007
    • member since: 07/28/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 35

    First off, thanks, this argument was getting repetitive. I'm only going to mention one point (and please don't expect me to reply if you reply) I just think that under the basis that Rurouni Kenshin is so heavily based in relationship development it would have been nice to have a little more complexity within the dialog which i found to be somewhat static.


    Many animes such as FLCL, FMA, Eureka Seven, and Cowboy Bebop are also very focussed on characters and their relationships. Each of these shows have had very entertaining dialog. This is because the dialog in these series is very character oriented. Also, the characters in these series are far more abstract than those in Rurouni Kenshin. Also, character relationships aren't very tight in Rurouni Kenshin. Even in FMA, which has the least character interaction of the aforementioned animes, all of the characters are laced together in a complex web in which no character is beyond weakness, immaturity, or uncertainty. As a result, the conflicts in the show give life to the dialog. In Rurouni Kenshin, the dialog never reaches this level. Rather, they take a very simple minded approach to dialog. Flawed characters are simply presented to us, and their problems are then dealt with. It is simply a matter of question and answer. There is no true interactivity or immersion in the dramatic dialog, it is just a morality lesson.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of ensatsu-ken

    ensatsu-ken

    [40]Aug 25, 2007
    • member since: 10/24/06
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 6,686
    GK-37 wrote:

    First off, thanks, this argument was getting repetitive. I'm only going to mention one point (and please don't expect me to reply if you reply) I just think that under the basis that Rurouni Kenshin is so heavily based in relationship development it would have been nice to have a little more complexity within the dialog which i found to be somewhat static.


    Many animes such as FLCL, FMA, Eureka Seven, and Cowboy Bebop are also very focussed on characters and their relationships. Each of these shows have had very entertaining dialog. This is because the dialog in these series is very character oriented. Also, the characters in these series are far more abstract than those in Rurouni Kenshin. Also, character relationships aren't very tight in Rurouni Kenshin. Even in FMA, which has the least character interaction of the aforementioned animes, all of the characters are laced together in a complex web in which no character is beyond weakness, immaturity, or uncertainty. As a result, the conflicts in the show give life to the dialog. In Rurouni Kenshin, the dialog never reaches this level. Rather, they take a very simple minded approach to dialog. Flawed characters are simply presented to us, and their problems are then dealt with. It is simply a matter of question and answer. There is no true interactivity or immersion in the dramatic dialog, it is just a morality lesson.



    But that is exactly where you are wrong. The dialouge in Rurouni Kenshin is done very well in the manga and the English dubs. However, if all you have watched are the mediocre subs, then of course the dialouge will seem static. No offense, but I have seen the subs, and the people subbing it don't do a very good job of translating the dialouge into English standards/equivalents of speaking (equivalent to what the characters sound like to Japanese speaking audiences). The English dubs which you have clearly not listened to very much of, does a much better job at this. And BTW, it is indeed Steven Jay Blum who performs Shishio's voice in the TV dub (he is the same guy who does Spike's voice in Cowboy Bebop, and Mugen's voice in Samurai Champloo). Of course if you're comparing it to Cowboy Bebop, then even FMA feels lackluster in its dialouge, in comparison. The only other anime that has a dub of great dialouge quality, is Yu Yu Hakusho (arguable the second best; second being that it comes to be the best, right after Cowboy Bebop, which is the best dub that I have ever heard).

    So therefore, if you have not seen more than a few episodes of the dub (and the editted version does not count), or if you have not read the manga, then you are in no position to be calling RK's dub lackluster in its dialouge (or the Japanese version for that matter; because it just so happens to be a fact that the subs are not done that well). Like I said, the manga and dub of the anime have very brilliant scripting, and the dialouge is even above that of FMA's (which has great voice acting, but mediocre dialouge/scripting for most of the characters, aside from Ed, Roy Mustang, and Scar).
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.