Episode 10 'Victory' discussion thread

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    boom-moo

    [1]Apr 11, 2013
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    Please post your opinions/comments/discussion topics on episode 10 "Victory" to air on April 12th here.

    -Spoilers are not allowed.
    -Bashing ships/characters is not allowed.
    -Discussion is welcome, arguing is not.
    -Trolls won't be fed, ignore and report it is.
    -Be respecful, keep it cool.



    Thank you

    (As per usual, I'll open a discussion thread for every new episode every Thursday and keep it locked until Friday. Past experience shows that comments posted before the episode airs tend to spoil the episode for spoiler free people and also, episode discussion threads that are opened days before their airing date tend to end up buried and reopened by different users which leads to confusion and clutter. Any comments regarding this episode should be done in the Spoilers thread until the episode has aired. Thank you.)

    Last one ever!
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    PenguinSuzie

    [2]Apr 15, 2013
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    The finale was amazing!

    I loved the touch of bringing up what Sura said about his destiny to end up kneeling before the red serpent (or something similar) which he thought meant being enslaved though IMO it's implied that it was about how he'd end, as a legend who died for what he believed in.

    On the other hand I can remember that when she said he'd never love another women after her immediately after they'd slept together for the first time that I distinctly liked her less.

    It was a lovely touch in the credits to see everyone again and to end on Andy.

    At first it seemed to me that Crassus had forgiven Kore and sided with her and I really wanted him to as well, though it seemed sad that he seemed to lose every trace of love for his dead son. After all if he'd never forced him to murder his best friend then Tiberius never would have gone off the deep end, and though him dying doesn't really make up for anything he still payed with his life. In the end though do you think he did forgive Kore and only killed her for the rebellion or was a part of it because of what had happened? It seems possible that he did forgive her but still lumped her in with the other rebels because of what she did.

    The way Caesar beat Gannicus was very cowardly but effective, it makes sense that the only way to kill him would be to surround and overpower him. Any sympathy for Caesar is long gone by now, Naevia was really annoying but it was still horrible to see her killed, and the initial attack on Gannicus seemed to happen so fast. So much death but I'm glad that there were so many survivors at least and that Agron and Nasir were among them.

    It seems very sad that Gannicus didn't even know what Saxa said to him.

    It seemed a little awkward at first to have such focus on Laeta/Spartacus and Gannicus/Sibyl given that they are such new relationship and this was the finale, but in the end the focus wasn't on them. I actually spent the whole episode trying to remember Laeta's name and I've only really been starting to like Gannicus properly this season but don't like Sibyl so that pairing has been dragging me down this season.

    Poor Gannicus, I'd heard this was what would happen to him, I think there had been a soundtrack spoiler going about about the name of the song played Gannicus crucified or something so it seemed very likely to happen.
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    boom-moo

    [3]Apr 15, 2013
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    In the end though do you think he did forgive Kore and only killed her for the rebellion or was a part of it because of what had happened? It seems possible that he did forgive her but still lumped her in with the other rebels because of what she did.
    The way I saw it is that Crassus did forgive her indeed and was truly sorry for what Tiberius put her through but even though he had forgiven her and still loved her, he couldn't look past over the fact that she had joined the rebellion. Steven DeKnight's comments on ep 10 confirm that much. He says that Crassus couldn't possibly bring her back to Rome after having joined Spartacus' forces or grant her freedom. Like Kore says to him, Crassus is a man who does what he must and he repeats those same words to Caesar at the foot of Kore's cross.

    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    It seems very sad that Gannicus didn't even know what Saxa said to him.
    It is but I have a feeling that Gannicus could pretty much guess what she meant.

    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    Poor Gannicus, I'd heard this was what would happen to him, I think there had been a soundtrack spoiler going about about the name of the song played Gannicus crucified or something so it seemed very likely to happen.
    Yeah, both Agron and Gannicus being crucified was revealed ages ago. I knew all along (posted a screencap of the soundtrack track titles in the spoilers thread) and yet couldn't figure out when/how it would play out which was really cool.
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    invisiblish

    [4]Apr 15, 2013
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    Sorry I've been dealing with things and haven't presented my recap:

    What a great way to begin the last episode!!! That I am Spartacus bit was truly impressive work by the writers and a great strategy by Spartacus. I really thought it was a glimpse of after the war with Gannicus convincing romans that Spartacus still lives (obviously this was before the next cut scene). I was really excited to see that I had it right, even if it was a bit of a montage by everyone.

    That amount of times I teared up, or straight balled my eyes out were nearly that of the times I cheered and laughed during the entire season. Spartacus' speech really rang a bell and was a great for the people: not about revenge but about life and the freedom they have regained. I was actually very surprised by a lack of intimacy for Agron/Nasir, I guess Nasir's presenting Agron with gift of sword & shield hybrid was intimate enough for them.

    The initial meeting of the armies was quite impressive. I'd like to note that Spartacus planned his own battlefield, most importantly I believe he stopped the messenger before the pit of death dug between the 2 forces. Perhaps I'm alone but I believe the pit had been there the entire time, hence Lugo's quip: 'The f***ing bait is taken'.

    I was glad to see a meeting between Spartacus and Crassus, especially the looks on Caesar and Gannicus' faces as they disarmed themselves (though it appeared Spartacus had a dagger in his right boot, visible as he approached Crassus on the cliff side and Crassus a blade upon his chest, right breast plate). Their conversation was possibly the finest moment of the episode for me, the revelation of Kore's slaying Tiberius and the respect Crassus shown was very memorable. My own lack of knowledge, through shear will fighting my own curiosity of looking up spoilers, allowed me to enjoy this episode very much, though Spartacus' threats still felt empty.

    Finally Gannicus assumes rightful place, and what a job he did. Disappearing from the battle front to horse back and the flank of Crassus was quite impressive. More impressive was Saxa's ability to tear through Crassus' men with the use of his own equipment. Spartacus' maneuvers on the forefront was particularly surprising for Crassus and his generals; quite familiar in appearance I'd say. Caesar's intentions clearly highlighted why he would become the future of Rome; his not wasting a single Roman life was clearly his most admirable trait. His second most valuable trait being loyalty to Crassus, as seen with Kore and the deceit.

    Back to the battle, go Lugo go. Spartacus' plans were good but some pure bada**ery by key players (Lugo, Saxa, Naevia, Nasir, & Agron) made the plan seem simply amazing. Lugo's fire blazing slayings and warcry were quite impressive even though not all that visually appealing (the fire and death scene seemed lackluster compared to other visual effects used during the show's run). I believe it was Cassius who fell next, a touching scene as he admitted that he wished to be Agron for but a day in his death. Saxa and Naevia's deaths were particularly hard to swallow as both were so determined during their fight. Saxa managed to fight on before succumbing to her wounds but Naevia's simple torture and slaying by Caesar was difficult to accept. Not only did he toy with her a bit, but disarmed her and slayed her with the same sword that brought an end to Crixus.

    Caesar fighting Gannicus whilst Crassus met Spartacus was very sad. I began to tear up at the thought that our heroes were finally to fall. Caesar and Gannicus seemed to stand equal for a time before Gannicus gained clear control. Especially when he seemed to toss Caesar away while trying to defend Saxa. This of course allowed Caesar to find Naevia before finally returning to find Gannicus surrounded and completely overwhelmed. I was actually quite sad to see that Caesar didn't acknowledge the Celt's strength. It would be quite out of character for Caesar to admit to being of equal standing with a slave but I was hoping for a humble moment from the famed ruler.

    Crassus' determination was quite impressive: sacrificing lives for the endgame, having a clear and precise mind to Spartacus' end and Caesar's role as flank protector. His deserving of a general rank was no more clearly deserving than during this final battle. If not for Spartacus' initial wound (the gash down his back when attacking Crassus' generals) I believe that Spartacus would have easily bested Crassus. It was impressive how far they were each willing to go, both gladly placing pain in the back of their minds to end the life of their opponent. Crassus seemed to find despair when Spartacus managed the same technique that Crassus had just used to gain advantage. It was when Spartacus was standing over Crassus, the clear resignation of death on Crassus' face, that I expected Caesar to arrive and save the day. I know that the series was built on Crassus vs Spartacus but Caesar slaying Spartacus and proving his worth and future fame would have been a nice treat (though historically inaccurate).

    Crassus parting words to Spartacus were a very nice show of respect and gratefully rejected. It was actually during this exchange of words that I realized 2 heroes remained. Thankfully Spartacus was saved (somewhat) and Crassus cast down the hillside, though Agron seemed willing to delve into the abyss and slay Crassus where he lay. I was glad to see that they disappeared from the battle, especially with all of the flashbacks of Sura, Varro, and the others. I loved Spartacus' demand for a sword.

    Gannicus was a fortune teller earlier in the episode: 'I'm no Martyr upon a Cross'. As it turned out he very well was; a fitting reunion between he and Oenomaus and the Arena before a final battle cry and presumed death. Kore's fate seemed all too clear to me, even as Crassus forgave and understood her treachery at last he did nothing but kiss her. Even before he learned the truth he stated that he could not forgive or forget (he was half right as he did forgive). A final intimate moment would never be shared between such a prominent Senator and a Rebellious slave. He clearly stated that he forgave her and understood her reasoning but could not protect her from her own actions. Glad Pompey appeared (damn DeKnight for not assuming the role himself) to assume victory though sad to see that Metellus didn't meet an end at some point. I was really hoping Crassus would have sent some final strike for greatest betrayal.

    Thankfully an honored brother did stand by Spartacus at the end: Agron. Agron's shield appearing as the gravestone was a touching gesture, but I was a little disappointed by the final scene. I am very pleased with the 'Bringer of Rain' homage during his final moments and there after. I loved Spartacus' final speech to Agron, Nasir, and the others but I truly wished that the great ending to Spartacus came with his final words of: 'Spartacus, that is not my name.'

    The final collaboration of characters from throughout the series was a great sight. Especially with the inclusion of Barca, Batiatus and Lucretia, Varro, Sura, and finally Andy himself stating for the first and only time: I am Spartacus.

    What a remarkable series, I'm truly sad to see it end.
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    H-MK74

    [5]Apr 16, 2013
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    Wow my first post.


    Sorry, I have been 'lurking' here reading all your comments for the last couple of weeks, I had to try and resist posting or reading too much as I was trying to avoid any spoilers.


    Although I desperately wanted all or at least most of the 'rebels' to survive deep down I knew it was inevitable that they would all fall. I had hoped that Spartacus would at least take the head of Crassus as I obviously knew Caesar would survive.


    When I saw Gannicus and the rest approach on horseback I dared to dream they may be victorious, but it seemed unavoidable that they would be overcome by sheer numbers.


    To me both Crassus and Caesar were not victorious as they only overcame there foe by superior numbers, had the fight been equal they would have been annihilated. Is this perhaps why Crassus was so willing to hand 'victory' to Pompey?


    I could see no logic in that other that other than perhaps Crassus felt it was a hollow victory.


    Although I am bitterly disappointed that the saga has now come to an end it seemed a fitting end, and all the main protagonists finally made peace with their various demons. It gives comfort that they will all be happy in the afterlife.


    RIP Spartacus.




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    boom-moo

    [6]Apr 16, 2013
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    invisiblish wrote:
    Spartacus' speech really rang a bell and was a great for the people: not about revenge but about life and the freedom they have regained.
    I loved his conversation with Gannicus about how victory was defined by life and not by death. It was only fitting for him to fall though, I don't think he would have been able to find a measure of peace if he would have lived and turned his back to the conflict. As he said to Crassus: there is no justice, not in this world. And what does he do when his life but dangles from a very thin string? He asks for a sword. Wow.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I was actually very surprised by a lack of intimacy for Agron/Nasir, I guess Nasir's presenting Agron with gift of sword & shield hybrid was intimate enough for them.
    I don't know the span of time between ep 9 and ep 10 but I don't think that Agron was in a fitting state for much prowess (he found the strength to fight though so I guess he could as well have performed love making). Anyway, sorry if I'm getting too graphic but I would have liked to see him bottoming for a change.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I'd like to note that Spartacus planned his own battlefield, most importantly I believe he stopped the messenger before the pit of death dug between the 2 forces. Perhaps I'm alone but I believe the pit had been there the entire time, hence Lugo's quip: 'The f***ing bait is taken'.
    Yes, it was there, that's why Spartacus had a small heart attack when the rider approached and had to throw the spear to stop him.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I was glad to see a meeting between Spartacus and Crassus, especially the looks on Caesar and Gannicus' faces as they disarmed themselves (though it appeared Spartacus had a dagger in his right boot, visible as he approached Crassus on the cliff side and Crassus a blade upon his chest, right breast plate).
    That makes their meeting even greater, they have the outmost respect for each other and it would have been pretty out of character to use a hidden weapon to wound/kill each other in such circumstances. I was positive it wouldn't happen.

    invisiblish wrote:
    Their conversation was possibly the finest moment of the episode for me, the revelation of Kore's slaying Tiberius and the respect Crassus shown was very memorable.
    I absolutely loved that moment too. It tells so much about both of them, I was really moved when they shook hands (arms, whatever).

    invisiblish wrote:
    Caesar's intentions clearly highlighted why he would become the future of Rome; his not wasting a single Roman life was clearly his most admirable trait.
    Indeed, he was beyond uncomfortable sacrificing so many Roman soldiers in such a way for a bigger chance at victory.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I believe it was Cassius who fell next, a touching scene as he admitted that he wished to be Agron for but a day in his death.
    Not the biggest fan of Castus at first but I was quite happy that he managed to become a trusted ally, trusted enough to form part of the small group that accompanies Spartacus to the meeting with Crassus. Plus he was scouting at the beginning of the episode and then fighting side by side with the named heroes. Castus' final words were a touching way for him and Agron to make their peace.

    invisiblish wrote:
    Thankfully Spartacus was saved (somewhat) and Crassus cast down the hillside, though Agron seemed willing to delve into the abyss and slay Crassus where he lay.
    Not having been because Spartacus needed him more he would have killed Crassus. It was cleverly written, as per usual.

    H-MK74 wrote:
    To me both Crassus and Caesar were not victorious as they only overcame there foe by superior numbers, had the fight been equal they would have been annihilated. Is this perhaps why Crassus was so willing to hand 'victory' to Pompey? I could see no logic in that other that other than perhaps Crassus felt it was a hollow victory.
    Also Spartacus was nowhere to be found. It would have been risky to return to Rome and proclaim the end of the rebellion only to have further villas raided in the name of Spartacus, either by himself or someone claiming to be him. So yeah, let's Pompey grab the laurels whatever the outcome and gain his favour. As Crassus tells Caesar, his mindset is in the future and his best bet to make it a glorious one is by making an ally of Pompey. There'll be time to deal with him later...
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  • Avatar of H-MK74

    H-MK74

    [7]Apr 16, 2013
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    Good point, it hadn't occured to me that at that time (or ever as it turns out) was there a body to put before the senate. So by passing the spoiils to Pompey Crassus was never in danger of looking like a fool.


    I will re-watch the episode at the weekend and no doubt will find new meaning in many things.


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    boom-moo

    [8]Apr 16, 2013
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    H-MK74 wrote:
    So by passing the spoiils to Pompey Crassus was never in danger of looking like a fool.
    I guess that Pompey got lucky that the rebellion was indeed at an end despite his minimal contribution. But despite the setback Crassus got what he wanted too and did manage to sucessfully ally himself with Pompey and together with Caesar form the planned triumvirate to rule over Rome for years.

    H-MK74 wrote:
    I will re-watch the episode at the weekend and no doubt will find new meaning in many things.
    Happens to me all the time!
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    invisiblish

    [9]Apr 16, 2013
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    I like that take on Crassus passing any possible happenstance onto Pompey but it would befall Crassus as well. Crassus clearly stated that Spartacus would die of his wounds, but later stated that giving Pompey the victory was intended to extend an olive branch of sorts. Pompey is even seen accepting the offer as he invites Crassus to his villa when he returns to Rome. Crassus seems more than willing, as we know from history, to accept the offer and propose the great first triumvirate that will rule Rome.

    But say that Spartacus (or someone using his name) rises and causes a stir. By aligning himself with Pompey and praising his glorified victory over Spartacus he too accepts the shame of failure. I think Crassus was far more willing to align himself with Pompey knowing that Spartacus was undoubtedly dead.

    While I'm thinking of it... it would have been pretty cool if Spartacus had simply 'disappeared' from the battlefield, though I am still a huge supporter of ending the series with him stating Spartacus is not his name. I admit that I am glad they gave finality to Spartacus' death though. As cool as I think it would be for him to disappear, as Caesar clearly stated the Gods are on his side again, it would have felt a sham and much like a black mark on the series.

    I'm curious as to how much respect Spartacus truly held for Crassus. Obviously he holds animosity towards Crassus because he stands Roman but at no point does he ever seem to recognize Crassus as a good person or imply that they could have been great had they been of the same blood (as Crassus does when attempting to end Spartacus). I understand that Spartacus has respect for Crassus' keen military mind but in regards to his character, to which he and Crixus shared such a bond, I don't find Crassus sharing such a bond with Spartacus.
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    boom-moo

    [10]Apr 16, 2013
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    invisiblish wrote:
    But say that Spartacus (or someone using his name) rises and causes a stir. By aligning himself with Pompey and praising his glorified victory over Spartacus he too accepts the shame of failure. I think Crassus was far more willing to align himself with Pompey knowing that Spartacus was undoubtedly dead.
    Yeah, Crassus would have had to endure his share of failure too but it wouldn't be much different to the failure he already endures by letting Pompey take all the credit (meaning that he wasn't able to end Spartacus himself). Before Crassus decided to let Pompey take the laurels Pompey had already sent word to Rome that he had been the one defeating Spartacus and his rebellion. So if the rebellion would have gone on, Crassus would stand as the one who couldn't end it whereas Pompey would stand as the one who claimed to have ended it but was proven wrong. Greater shame would fall on Pompey. Plus Crassus couldn't be sure that Pompey would agree to his idea of the triumvirate. But yes, I agree that Crassus was convinced that Spartacus was dead (or about to be dead) and that chances for the rebellion to go on were very slim seeing as most of the remaining rebels had been massacred or managed to fled across the mountains.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I'm curious as to how much respect Spartacus truly held for Crassus. Obviously he holds animosity towards Crassus because he stands Roman but at no point does he ever seem to recognize Crassus as a good person or imply that they could have been great had they been of the same blood (as Crassus does when attempting to end Spartacus). I understand that Spartacus has respect for Crassus' keen military mind but in regards to his character, to which he and Crixus shared such a bond, I don't find Crassus sharing such a bond with Spartacus.
    I don't think that either Crassus or Spartacus shared a bond with each other on a personal level. When Crassus said that he wished for Spartacus to have been born Roman and fighting by his side he is praising his talent for battle, his resilience (same as Caesar praised Agron's capacity to endure pain and torture and expressed his wish to have men like him to train as Roman soldiers).

    They admired each other in regards of their talents for battle (both physical and tactical skills) even if they wouldn't even agree on tactical decisions (like raining fire on their own men, something that even Caesar couldn't condone) and as men who stood for their ideals even if their ideals were pretty much the opposite (Crassus obviously thought that slavery was necessary to maintain and expand the Roman empire whereas Spartacus was a firm believer in everyone's right to their freedom).

    They seem to stand on opposite mindframes to find more private traits or personal common grounds to respect. Has Crassus ever praised Spartacus in that way? Can't recall that he has.

    ______________

    Someone asked Steven DeKnight if the level of respect that Crassus had for Spartacus was reciprocated by Spartacus. DeKnight said "yes" Source.

    Edited on 04/16/2013 1:20pm
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    invisiblish

    [11]Apr 18, 2013
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    So after rewatching the episode I've noticed a couple things...

    Spartacus all but sends Naevia to her death. Ironic though, he sends her to aid Gannicus which is where I will start.

    Gannicus, though he surely would have been overrun by the vast number of Romans, allowed Caesar to live when Saxa fell. Gannicus flipped Caesar to the ground (whose sword seemed to fall from grip) and ran to Saxa's side instead of dealing the fatal blow to Caesar.

    While Gannicus held Saxa and comforted her in death, Caesar regained composure, his sword, and was attacked by Naevia. While he did seem to garner some luck with slashing her neck by reflex when struck in the arm, he would then take her leg out and then slay Naevia with the famed sword of Tiberius.

    Meanwhile Gannicus seeing Naevia slain has been encircled by many Romans and is subsequently captured by the gloating Caesar.

    Also of note: Spartacus instructs Agron and Nasir to cover his flank so that he can claim the 'only Roman life that matters'. While it isn't seen exactly what they are doing, we obviously know that at least the 3 managed to escape and slay Spartacus.
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