Episode 3 'Men Of Honor' discussion thread

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    boom-moo

    [1]Feb 6, 2013
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    Please post your opinions/comments/discussion topics on episode 3 "Men Of Honor" here.

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    Thank you

    (As per usual, I'll open a discussion thread for every new episode every Thursday and keep it locked until Friday. Past experience shows that comments posted before the episode airs tend to spoil the episode for spoiler free people and also, episode discussion threads that are opened days before their airing date tend to end up buried and reopened by different users which leads to confusion and clutter. Any comments regarding this episode should be done in the Spoilers thread until the episode has aired. Thank you.)
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    PenguinSuzie

    [2]Feb 10, 2013
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    I like the pirates. Especially the leader guy, though a creep he's sort of charming and a bit eccentric.


    I hated the way the they laughed and cheered as the two men were forced to fight and as they watched the pregnant woman panic for her husband. They really are no better than the Romans if they continue to act like that. I'm glad that it was pointed out to them.


    I feel a little like finding out that it was her husband that was a liar was awfully convenient in trying to make what happened seem like less of a tragedy.


    "He came at me" He bloody did not! She attacked him first. Personally I seriously doubt he betrayed them as there wasn't any concrete evidence besides the fact that he wanted to leave with the pirates. Even if he had been guilty of betraying them (maybe he was, I could easily have missed something they said) she didn't have nearly enough evidence or cause to attack and then murder him. He was down and he wasn't going to get up any time soon, she didn't have to bash him to death and then coldly once he was obviously dead take out her frustrations and anger at everything that's happened to her on his corpse with a final swing. Her statement that she's known men like him is unfair as she didn't even know him, he hadn't said or done anything. He came at her after she attacked and then fought him but was there any doubt in anyone's mind that she'd attack him the moment she got up. Not that that makes it OK for him to continue the fight but his death wasn't merely her 'defending' herself. I liked him and I'm sad he's dead . Technically he did come at her but only after she did and her words had no context and so it made it sound like he'd simply attacked her and she'd defended herself. I wonder if this was intentional on her part. It would definitely make Crixus side with her and noone will question what happened. Maybe I'm simply looking to much into this (probably). Does everyone else think he was a dangerous traitor and that she did the right thing? Maybe I'm just bias because I liked him and some of the dialogue was quite quiet.


    I really hated Caesar for killing that guy. What's honorable about dying horribly with absolutely no chance of survival, when you could escape and live to fight another day and therefore contribute to the war, and be useful instead of wasted. He warned them, without him they never would have known. Doesn't that have more use to him than if the man had died. Brave to stay in an overrun cit and die, or stupid and suicidal if there's any other option and no chance of making any kind of difference at all if you stay.


    The Romans had similar parties in a way but what about the captured Romans, the many children and families among them, I really hope they weren't around to see that.


    Saxa was rather predatory with that girl, the way she went about offering that girl (Sabella?) to Gannicus. I think it was her demeanor and how awkward she seemed that made Gannicus say he wouldn't have her and that she was just a child and not because of the way she looks or that age she's suppose to be. As she looks about 24 I presume that was the reason he refused her and called her that, and not because she's a quite skinny woman with few curves. I couldn't help but notice in the alley that despite the fact that she's a very pretty girl, that Gannicus is prettier than her .


    On another note how did Saxa get her hair in pretty curls and waves. She must have a few tricks up her sleeve there. We'll never know. I liked Spartacus a lot this episode. At least he's trying to make a positive difference and care for his people.


    That hand wound that Naevia gave the man didn't appear to be fatal or have any long term effects (because of infection and the time and we haven't seen any doctors among them yet, I'm sure there must be some), though only time will tell if it's bad enough to have consequences.


    I think this episode showed how unstable Naevia might be. How quick she was to act and to see the people who hurt her in others. I wonder if this will be a recurring plot.

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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [3]Feb 10, 2013
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    Pretty intense episode (well, aren't they all?). Loved how Heracleo was written ambiguously, the fact that his allegiances weren't made clear until the very end made for really good drama indeed

    PenguinSuzie wrote:

    Does everyone else think he was a dangerous traitor and that she did the right thing? Maybe I'm just bias because I liked him and some of the dialogue was quite quiet.

    I don't think he was a traitor (well, he did betray the Romans for coin but he didn't betray Spartacus). As I see it, he was just wanted to get away from the whole situation with his life and being close to Spartacus was a constant threat to that.

    I have never been a big fan of Naevia but I see where she comes from. She's gone through so much that she's sort of lost the capacity to reason out under stressful circumstances and more so, the ability to trust any Roman any longer. Not that I condone her killing Attius but I understand that people who have been inflicted all kinds of physical and emotional abuse can become broken to their marrow. That's why I like the fact that Spartacus' people are not goodie-two-shoes and one dimensional heroes. Now that they find themselves in power they reciprocate the pain suffered. It's like those people who have been abused in childhood and become abusers when they are parents themselves. It's really hard to understand but it's one of the darkest corners of human nature.

    It is unfair, painful and hard to watch but it's realistic and I like that the writers are brave enough to show a mesure of that. Of course Spartacus is depicted on a different kind of moral ground, he is the hero after all, so it kind of balances out nicely.

    PenguinSuzie wrote:

    I really hated Caesar for killing that guy. What's honorable about dying horribly with absolutely no chance of survival, when you could escape and live to fight another day and therefore contribute to the war, and be useful instead of wasted. He warned them, without him they never would have known.

    Yeah, it's very ironic. The man was a deserter though and his duty was to fight to the death even if getting killed wouldn't have served Tiberius and Caesar as much. Under Roman law he should have given exemplary punishment, and death is never discarted.

    Caesar overstepped his bounds, not just by killing him but by messing up the chain of command. And Tiberius has been very stupid to attack so both have shamed themselves upon first chance. Looking forward to Crassus' reaction to it.

    By the way, I just realized that Nasir was called Tiberius as well by the Romans.

    Oh and on the matter of Caesar. I am not only intrigued about what was going on with his bloody penis (I assume) but also about why Crassus forbids him to get his facial hair trimmed. What with all the mystery?

    Agron and Nasir: wow at Agron being jealous, such a nice love declaration and hottest sex scene so far!

    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    Saxa was rather predatory with that girl, the way she went about offering that girl (Sabella?) to Gannicus. I think it was her demeanor and how awkward she seemed that made Gannicus say he wouldn't have her and that she was just a child and not because of the way she looks or that age she's suppose to be.
    Sibyl is beautiful and Saxa isn't blind so I guess that she thought that she'd rather join the enemy if you aren't sure that you can defeat it. In any case, I don't see Gannicus as someone who would have sex with a girl that is offered to him by someone else (even if he suspects that Sibyl was happy to oblige). I think that he wants to spare her some suffering as he said that he would feel repaid if she would stand clear from men like him. Not that Gannicus considers himself and his kind lesser men than any, but they never know if they are going to see a new day. What I read from his words is that he just doesn't want Sibyl to fall for him only to suffer his loss.

    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    On another note how did Saxa get her hair in pretty curls and waves. She must have a few tricks up her sleeve there. We'll never know.
    I guess she is "borrowing" stuff from some Roman woman. When the city was taken we could see several elegant Roman women about so I buy it that she pimped up for Gannicus. However, how Laeta manages to keep perfect curls and make-up is a different story

    I don't know what Spartacus was thinking when he decided to let her roam about the city. Does he really believe that she isn't going to try and see her people out of bondage only because her husband has proven to be a jerk? Or does he think that he can keep a close eye on her to persuade her from trying? So he doesn't trust his men to properly feed and tend to their hostages and he places his trust in her instead? I get it how trust and honor was the main theme of this episode so I hope that Spartacus is making a big mistake (going with the end of the episode Laeta has started to prove his judgement wrong already). I like heroes with flaws.
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    invisiblish

    [4]Feb 10, 2013
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    So this episode was not what I expected. Although, that is only because of Tiberius and his foolishness. This could have easily turned into Spartacus vs the Pirates, if not for Tiberius' timely arrival, I believe it would have been.

    This brings up 2 points concerning Tiberius and the Romans: 1- Caesar killing the surviving roman soldier is exactly what Crassus wants him for, ruthless tenacity. Yes he overstepped, but I think he did it with purpose: to get rid of Tiberius. 2- Tiberius got hurt during the battle he wasn't supposed to engage in, and on top of it he left his family sword at the battle field. I expect Caesar will be in some shit for his mistakes (mostly Tiberius getting hurt), but Tiberius will be in deep shit for engaging in battle, leaving the family sword, and the multitude of roman soldiers lost during the battle.

    As for Spartacus and his crew...

    I hope that they have learned their lessons about becoming too much like the Romans a'la Animal Farm. I really think that Naevia will have to be put down at some point. She's losing it, her rationale is completely off. That guy is guaranteed to lose those 3 fingers, and Attius' loss is major. Who else is going to supply them with an assortment of battle materials? I expect that her increasing 'dementia'? will be a major cause of friction to come. It says a lot about her that the missing slaves and she went straight to Attius with such an intent.

    Gannicus's rejection of Sibyl appeared more to me than just simple rejection. Gannicus looked to her as he did Oenomaus' wife Mellita. I think his rejection of her was to not let him feel anything for her, and his warning to stay away from men like him is to stay away from ruthless men who would ruin her innocence. I agree that he doesn't want her to deal with the pain of loss anymore than he wants to protect something with possible (probable) loss himself.

    I expected, until the showing of Tiberius, that the pirates had poisoned a good many of Spartacus' men. With Gannicus feeling the way he was and the soldier Tiberius himself killed (and leff his sword in), I thought for sure the pirates were preparing for an all out assault and raid of the city. Yay for the Roman's appearance and ensuring an alliance between them.

    Did anyone expect the Roman slaves not to disappear during the party? Maybe I was the only one, maybe I wasn't, but I fully expected it. She already told Spartacus that she knew of her husband's hiding places, why wouldn't she know of a place to hide the slaves after such ruthless treatment by Crixus and then further mistreatment by Naevia? I'll be surprised if everyone doesn't push Spartacus to take her life.
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    boom-moo

    [5]Feb 10, 2013
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    invisiblish wrote:
    I expect Caesar will be in some shit for his mistakes (mostly Tiberius getting hurt)
    But was that his fault (Tiberius getting hurt)? Caesar did but follow command (exactly what the soldier that he executed failed to do, even though he wasn't a proper Roman soldier and all, but the irony is right there), that's why he left Tiberius alone. It was Tiberius' recklessness what made him get hurt. Tiberius is too willing to prove himself and please his father but he is green as an olive. If Sabinus wouldn't have been there, Crassus would have lost his son.

    Granted that Crassus didn't have an easy choice when putting one to serve under the other. It seems to me that eventually it would have gone wrong either way.
    invisiblish wrote:
    I really think that Naevia will have to be put down at some point. She's losing it, her rationale is completely off.
    It seems to me like it's gonna be her undoing indeed.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I agree that he doesn't want her to deal with the pain of loss anymore than he wants to protect something with possible (probable) loss himself.
    Yes, the girl was obviously pleasing to his eyes. I don't think he holds deep (or rather, true love) feelings for Saxa and he is fine with that because he doesn't want to allow himself to fall in love, let alone after the whole mess with Melitta. Apart from suffering the loss of love she endured the bitter taste of being at odds with a friend and I don't think he's willing to revisit either.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I thought for sure the pirates were preparing for an all out assault and raid of the city. Yay for the Roman's appearance and ensuring an alliance between them.
    Me too, I was convinced of it. I thought that Agron getting jealous and hitting that pirate was written in to give the pirates further excuse not to honor the agreement.

    invisiblish wrote:
    Did anyone expect the Roman slaves not to disappear during the party? Maybe I was the only one, maybe I wasn't, but I fully expected it. She already told Spartacus that she knew of her husband's hiding places, why wouldn't she know of a place to hide the slaves after such ruthless treatment by Crixus and then further mistreatment by Naevia? I'll be surprised if everyone doesn't push Spartacus to take her life.
    Yeah, I expected it as well, I knew that she was up to something from the moment she asked to go sleep elsewhere and like you, when she mentioned that she yet knows of many hiding places within the city.
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    PenguinSuzie

    [7]Feb 10, 2013
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    boom-moo wrote:
    I guess she is "borrowing" stuff from some Roman woman. When the city was taken we could see several elegant Roman women about so I buy it that she pimped up for Gannicus. However, how Laeta manages to keep perfect curls and make-up is a different story
    Yes she was definitely taking things from them, what with the pretty dress, but since she wasn't a slave to the Romans I wonder how she knew how to do what they did to curl her hair. Since she looked all glamorous, it wasn't just the dress. Maybe it's just something her people know how to do too. Either way I'm jealous, I wish my hair was so easy to tame.
    boom-moo wrote:
    By the way, I just realized that Nasir was called Tiberius as well by the Romans.
    Good point!
    invisiblish wrote:
    She already told Spartacus that she knew of her husband's hiding places, why wouldn't she know of a place to hide the slaves after such ruthless treatment by Crixus and then further mistreatment by Naevia?
    So did she hide them there? I thought that it was just where the rebels had shoved them.
    invisiblish wrote:
    Gannicus's rejection of Sibyl appeared more to me than just simple rejection. Gannicus looked to her as he did Oenomaus' wife Mellita. I think his rejection of her was to not let him feel anything for her, and his warning to stay away from men like him is to stay away from ruthless men who would ruin her innocence. I agree that he doesn't want her to deal with the pain of loss anymore than he wants to protect something with possible (probable) loss himself.
    boom-moo wrote:
    In any case, I don't see Gannicus as someone who would have sex with a girl that is offered to him by someone else (even if he suspects that Sibyl was happy to oblige). I think that he wants to spare her some suffering as he said that he would feel repaid if she would stand clear from men like him. Not that Gannicus considers himself and his kind lesser men than any, but they never know if they are going to see a new day. What I read from his words is that he just doesn't want Sibyl to fall for him only to suffer his loss.
    I agree. I think he doesn't want to take advantage of her or be repaid from her like that, but he also looks at her like he could fall for her and he doesn't want to do that again. They aren't exactly in a position to live happily ever after and it would not end well and I don't think he wants that to happen to either of them. I was wondering during the scene if Saxa would be so confident about it if she thought Gannicus was going to fall for the girl. There seems to be a little more between them than just using each other and fun, so I wonder how much she'll care when something romantic rather than just sexual inevitably happens between him and Sibyl. Though I don't think he's in love with Saxa and like with Sibyl I don't think he wants to be.
    boom-moo wrote:
    Now that they find themselves in power they reciprocate the pain suffered. It's like those people who have been abused in childhood and become abusers when they are parents themselves. It's really hard to understand but it's one of the darkest corners of human nature.

    It is unfair, painful and hard to watch but it's realistic and I like that the writers are brave enough to show a mesure of that. Of course Spartacus is depicted on a different kind of moral ground, he is the hero after all, so it kind of balances out nicely.
    It's understandable, but very frustrating and difficult to watch.
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    boom-moo

    [8]Feb 11, 2013
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    Maybe it's just something her people know how to do too. Either way I'm jealous, I wish my hair was so easy to tame.
    It must have been simple enough. My hair is straight like an arrow, no way to curl it so that it lasts more than half an hour that way

    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    invisiblish wrote:
    She already told Spartacus that she knew of her husband's hiding places, why wouldn't she know of a place to hide the slaves after such ruthless treatment by Crixus and then further mistreatment by Naevia?
    So did she hide them there? I thought that it was just where the rebels had shoved them.
    It wasn't the rebels, it was Laeta. She told Spartacus when he freed her that she preferred to sleep under a different roof so her people wouldn't see her as a turncloak. She mentioned that his husband had a stable at the edge of the city and that's where she tells Spartacus that she prefers taking shelter. And that's precisely where she has hidden some Roman (Ulpianus and wife between them) using a hidden trap door on the floor. It was Laeta's doing and not Attius' as Naevia thought.

    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    I was wondering during the scene if Saxa would be so confident about it if she thought Gannicus was going to fall for the girl. There seems to be a little more between them than just using each other and fun, so I wonder how much she'll care when something romantic rather than just sexual inevitably happens between him and Sibyl. Though I don't think he's in love with Saxa and like with Sibyl I don't think he wants to be.
    It was quite brave of Saxa indeed but I think that she knows Gannicus well enough to risk it. Either if Gannicus sends Sibyl away of if he would have taken her as the diversion that Saxa presented the girls as, both outcomes might have discouraged Sibyl from holding hopes for real affection between her and Gannicus so Saxa was somehow in sort of a winwin situation there by taking the initiative (I'd say it backfired though because Gannicus' words with Sybil were those of a man worth risking the pain of loss for). I don't think that Gannicus holds any romantic feelings towards Saxa but she seems to do so she won't take it well at all if Gannicus decides to make a move on Sibyl.
    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    boom-moo wrote:
    Now that they find themselves in power they reciprocate the pain suffered. It's like those people who have been abused in childhood and become abusers when they are parents themselves. It's really hard to understand but it's one of the darkest corners of human nature.

    It is unfair, painful and hard to watch but it's realistic and I like that the writers are brave enough to show a mesure of that. Of course Spartacus is depicted on a different kind of moral ground, he is the hero after all, so it kind of balances out nicely.
    It's understandable, but very frustrating and difficult to watch.
    It is but is it just me who likes it better this way? Would you have preferred if there wouldn't be any greys to the goodies?
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    PenguinSuzie

    [9]Feb 11, 2013
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    boom-moo wrote:
    It must have been simple enough. My hair is straight like an arrow, no way to curl it so that it lasts more than half an hour that way
    My hair tends to go quite curly naturally, not so glamourous like hers though; more 'I look like I've been dragged through a hedge backwards/lions mane/hair of a crazy person . It takes a ridiculous amount of time to straighten it properly though (so I don't generally bother (because I'm to lazy to care )). But it tends to hold styles well. She looked lovely in the Roman dress. Also Spartacus will surely not have any trouble getting their hands on the equipment if they need to blend in or go under cover again. (I just realized how that sounded, I meant armor, the Roman garb and such)
    boom-moo wrote:
    It is but is it just me who likes it better this way? Would you have preferred if there wouldn't be any greys to the goodies?
    No I prefer grey characters too. I think there's just something about the way 99% of them eagerly embraced the blood shed and barely anyone had any sympathy towards them despite the fact that they were clearly harmless and scared civilians. If they'd been doing that to a soldier or someone they had something personal against it would have still been wrong but extremely understandable. They're angry but it's sad to see the rebels sink to the Romans level, lower even given that they know first hand what it's like yet get so much pleasure from seeing innocent people suffer the same fate. People often become like their abusers though. I think it's realistic and good that the show touched upon that but it does make certain characters (like the one who offered them bread and seemed like he would help the hungry pregnant woman only to hurt them instead) a bit less sympathetic.
    boom-moo wrote:
    It was quite brave of Saxa indeed but I think that she knows Gannicus well enough to risk it. Either if Gannicus sends Sibyl away of if he would have taken her as the diversion that Saxa presented the girls as, both outcomes might have discouraged Sibyl from holding hopes for real affection between her and Gannicus so Saxa was somehow in sort of a winwin situation there by taking the initiative (I'd say it backfired though because Gannicus' words with Sybil were those of a man worth risking the pain of loss for). I don't think that Gannicus holds any romantic feelings towards Saxa but she seems to do so she won't take it well at all if Gannicus decides to make a move on Sibyl.
    Good point, in her plans she'd win either way. I don't think this is going to end well for any of them.
    boom-moo wrote:
    It wasn't the rebels, it was Laeta. She told Spartacus when he freed her that she preferred to sleep under a different roof so her people wouldn't see her as a turncloak. She mentioned that his husband had a stable at the edge of the city and that's where she tells Spartacus that she prefers taking shelter. And that's precisely where she has hidden some Roman (Ulpianus and wife between them) using a hidden trap door on the floor. It was Laeta's doing and not Attius' as Naevia thought.
    I didn't notice when I watched it. It's clever of her (though dangerous) to keep certain hideouts hidden from Spartacus and use them to save her own people. I wonder if their absence will be noticed. She has a lot of heart and good intentions. It does seem like Spartacus' decision to trust her and let her roam freely around the city may come back to bite him.

    Edited on 02/11/2013 7:27am
    Edited 2 total times.
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    boom-moo

    [10]Feb 11, 2013
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    She looked lovely in the Roman dress.
    She did, she is a very lovely looking woman. Have you heard about the "In the Tub" photoshoot? A lot of the Spartacus cast took part on it, the actress playing Saxa between them. You can see the album here. Sorry for going a bit OT...

    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    I prefer grey characters too. I think there's just something about the way 99% of them eagerly embraced the blood shed and barely anyone had any sympathy towards them despite the fact that they were clearly harmless and scared civilians. If they'd been doing that to a soldier or someone they had something personal against it would have still been wrong but extremely understandable. They're angry but it's sad to see the rebels sink to the Romans level, lower even given that they know first hand what it's like yet get so much pleasure from seeing innocent people suffer the same fate. People often become like their abusers though. I think it's realistic and good that the show touched upon that
    Yeah, that's a sad truth. They (the abusing rebels) and their loved ones were the innocent and vulnerable ones once and such scars are worn forever.

    And let's not forget that some of those Roman women and children weren't that harmless after all. When the slave was being stoned to death they were a very active party both cheering and throwing stones themselves. So yeah, I'm glad for the shades of grey on both factions.

    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    It's clever of her (though dangerous) to keep certain hideouts hidden from Spartacus and use them to save her own people. I wonder if their absence will be noticed. She has a lot of heart and good intentions. It does seem like Spartacus' decision to trust her and let her roam freely around the city may come back to bite him.
    Yeah, she is a brave woman. Spartacus has made a mistake if he thinks that by opening Laeta's eyes towards her husband true treacherous nature she would be deterred from trying anything against the rebels.

    And the absence of the Romans have been noticed already. Saxa raised the alarm and that's why Naevia killed Attius. Laeta has been "lucky" because after Naevia's mistake there's no one else to blame and to question about the whereabouts of those Roman people. I guess they'll search the city upside down but Laeta will manage to keep the hiding place at the stables secure.
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    PenguinSuzie

    [11]Feb 11, 2013
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    boom-moo wrote:
    She did, she is a very lovely looking woman. Have you heard about the "In the Tub" photoshoot? A lot of the Spartacus cast took part on it, the actress playing Saxa between them. You can see the album here.
    Cool thanks.
    boom-moo wrote:
    Sorry for going a bit OT...
    Me too. I ramble a bit.

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    marknmo

    [12]Feb 12, 2013
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    PenguinSuzie wrote:


    No I prefer grey characters too. I think there's just something about the way 99% of them eagerly embraced the blood shed and barely anyone had any sympathy towards them despite the fact that they were clearly harmless and scared civilians. If they'd been doing that to a soldier or someone they had something personal against it would have still been wrong but extremely understandable. They're angry but it's sad to see the rebels sink to the Romans level, lower even given that they know first hand what it's like yet get so much pleasure from seeing innocent people suffer the same fate. People often become like their abusers though. I think it's realistic and good that the show touched upon that but it does make certain characters (like the one who offered them bread and seemed like he would help the hungry pregnant woman only to hurt them instead) a bit less sympathetic.




    This is my exact problem with the show so far this season. These characters have changed so much now that they have the power for revenge. I just am not enjoying seeing them kill all of these innocents, even if they are Romans. I understand that all of these people have been put through horrible times as slaves, but now it's like they're just thirsty for anybody's blood who happens to be born into the Roman empire. They don't even look at their victims objectively now, they just hear the word Roman and they're grabbing for their swords.

    I was completely in shock during the scene where the two men were forced to fight each other for bread. It was horrible to watch, and it felt like Spartacus's men had created their own mini-arena. They were now the upper class yearning for the entertainment of forcing their underlings to fight to the death. I feel like with the exception of Gannicus and, to a degree, Spartacus, all of the rest of the cast has become really horrible people this season. I'm having trouble rooting for them anymore, and I feel like I'm now watching a cast of racists slaughtering anyone who isn't like them.

    Last season I couldn't stand the new Naevia, because 1) I missed the old actress and 2) she was constantly whining. However, this season, she really started winning me over again with how much of a warrior she had become. Now, she's completely lost me again in this episode. She's pretty much a psychotic murderer. She's the most blood thirsty of them all, and she just wants to kill any Roman she can in order to get her revenge. I really liked Attius, I'm sad he's not going to be around any longer because of Naevia. I have no doubt now that Laeta is going to be completely slaughtered by somebody when she's found out, and I'm wondering if that will be Naevia. Either way, I think her death is going to be particularly nasty since she's such an innocent character and these men are all becoming barbarians now. Perhaps if Spartacus witnesses it, it will finally open his eyes to the brutality that he's leading. He needs some kind of wake-up call, because so far he's been annoyingly oblivious as to the environment he's created.

    I agree with what was said before about how all of this is a natural evolution of the psyche of someone who has been traumatized - all of these warriors have been horribly abused in their past and now they're getting their chance to make things right and overthrow their abusers. However, it's leaving me with little to feel empathy for and I'm struggle to decide who to root for anymore. I'm actually looking forward to seeing Naevia and Cruxus bite it now, but I'm still fond of Gannicus, Spartacus, and Nasir. I want to see Tiberius succeed in some way to show his worth to his father and display dominance to Ceasar, but I know when this happens, Ceasar is likely to cut his throat in order to take the power back. I want Gannicus to somehow survive the series, but I don't see it happening if Spartacus and his men fall, cause it would be too much for his soul to have abandoned all of them when they were in need. Plus, right now I'm liking Crassus about equally to Spartacus, so with Spartacus being so incompetent with keeping his men on a moral path, I'm finding myself starting to root for Crassus at the moment.

    I'm still watching the show for sure until the end, but I'm just finding some of these writing decisions to be difficult to adjust to this season. However, the stories are still good and compelling at least, so I'm enjoying it all the same, just differently than before.

    Also, boom-moo, thanks for posting that link to the photo shoot. That was great to see, and there were several fantastic shots there. Also, I was thrilled to see some past cast members in the shoot, like Illithia and especially Ashur, as he is my favorite character from the series by far.


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  • Avatar of boom-moo

    boom-moo

    [13]Feb 12, 2013
    • member since: 02/05/07
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    marknmo wrote:
    I just am not enjoying seeing them kill all of these innocents, even if they are Romans.
    With the exception of Laeta, who showed her aversion towards slavery (or at least towards mistreating slaves), I don't think that there were may innocents within the city walls. I was really uneasy when women and small kids took part in the stoning. Not being for the children, who can't be blamed for the culture they are born in and the values they are raised into and who are too young to make their own choices, I saw a lot of very cruel people.

    marknmo wrote:
    they're just thirsty for anybody's blood who happens to be born into the Roman empire. They don't even look at their victims objectively now

    marknmo wrote:
    I feel like I'm now watching a cast of racists slaughtering anyone who isn't like them

    As I see it, those two sentences can be applied to the Romans as well. It is equally disturbing regardless of which faction stands on which side.

    marknmo wrote:
    I agree with what was said before about how all of this is a natural evolution of the psyche of someone who has been traumatized - all of these warriors have been horribly abused in their past and now they're getting their chance to make things right and overthrow their abusers. However, it's leaving me with little to feel empathy for and I'm struggle to decide who to root for anymore.
    I can't make myself feel much for the Romans though since they threw the stone first and sort of brought it over themselves but I see your point. It's making me think that the scales have been balanced indeed, might be what the writers intended to give this series, what with being the last, a different feel where nothing is crystal clear anymore.

    marknmo wrote:
    Perhaps if Spartacus witnesses it, it will finally open his eyes to the brutality that he's leading. He needs some kind of wake-up call, because so far he's been annoyingly oblivious as to the environment he's created.
    That's annoying me a bit as well, in some cases Spartacus is oblivious and in others he looks away. However, I see how he is in a very difficult position. He needs his men so he has to tread very lightly when it comes to putting boundaries, establisihing rules and seeing them respected. He can't upset his men to the risk of losing them or seeing them divided and at the same time he needs to keep his leadership unquestioned. Every new recruit (as well as many of his not so new ones) has their need for vengeance unfulfilled, and Spartacus keeps adding many more of those to his ranks with every move he makes. It is not easy being on his shoes but charing Laeta with the task was the easy solution. Bit disappointed there.

    marknmo wrote:
    I want Gannicus to somehow survive the series, but I don't see it happening if Spartacus and his men fall, cause it would be too much for his soul to have abandoned all of them when they were in need.
    I don't see Gannicus abandoning them. The only way in which I can imagine him surviving would be if he is wounded in the final battle and made captive although I bet he'd be made an example of and be killed as gruesomely as possible soon enough.
    marknmo wrote:
    Also, boom-moo, thanks for posting that link to the photo shoot. That was great to see, and there were several fantastic shots there. Also, I was thrilled to see some past cast members in the shoot, like Illithia and especially Ashur, as he is my favorite character from the series by far.
    And even more so since it was a charity thing. You are welcome

    And I thank you all guys for joining in the discussion and bringing all sort of views, ideas and opinions to the table. It is so much fun this way!
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    PenguinSuzie

    [14]Feb 14, 2013
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    marknmo wrote:
    I'm still fond of Gannicus, Spartacus, and Nasir.
    I like Gannicus a lot more this season than I did before. He's really grown on me.
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    invisiblish

    [15]Feb 15, 2013
    • member since: 01/17/07
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    First things first... about the Roman's fighting: Crixus is one of the very few Gladiators still standing. If you think about it carefully Crixus, Gannicus, Spartacus, and Agron are the only ones remaining from the Arena. Crixus is proving his point of the Romans fighting as to say they were unfit, showing his superiority to their squabbles. Everyone else, Naevia and Nasir included, are fresh from the Slave Trade. Lugo was saved thanks to Agron's pleading with Spartacus. He is one of the few that have truly converted to Spartacus' ways. As much of a leader Spartacus is, he hasn't shown his new 'troops' his sense of worth and justice. He has shown how great a General he is, but is still failing to show how great of a Person he is. The German who started the bread fight (I can't remember his name for the life of me) is proof enough of that. He and Lugo were there last season, but have been on their own to lead the way. Lugo seems to follow but he, in turn, does not. Spartacus needs to reassert his greatness in Character.

    I'm sorry to disagree but saying that you are siding with Crassus is a bit premature. All that we know of him is that he values the life of his one slave and that he doesn't underestimate his opponent as all those before him have. In fact what we do know is that he is willing to throw away his family for his own love/lust, and will throw his soldiers to the wolves so as to gain position. Not one things there is likable other than his staying true to his word for the Gladiator who trained him. I don't even value his sense of worth to Tiberius, he knows the boy is unfit to lead, he just as much said it, and still gave him position unearned. A General who puts his men at risk under faulty leadership is at fault just as much as the incompetent leader themselves. What proof do we have? How about the entire fight with Spartacus? Not only did he attack before his entire army was there, he lost so many lives and a Captain while gaining nothing but a few petty kills. Tiberius' failures are a direct reflection of Crassus and Caesar would be correct in proving it so. Not trying to attack anyone but what redeeming quality has Crassus presented that would cause any of us to side with him?

    And yes I believe we've already talked about the need for Grey characters. I agree with the Naevia comments of loving the previous actress and her even strengthening character. Her blood lust is believable and quite honestly needed. I can't say I'm happy to see it, but it would be pathetic if she were Saintly and peaceful despite all that has befallen her. I personally think Crixus is slowly seeing this and becoming increasingly worried of her. Understanding is great but the line has been crossed and he knows it.
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    boom-moo

    [16]Feb 15, 2013
    • member since: 02/05/07
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    invisiblish wrote:
    As much of a leader Spartacus is, he hasn't shown his new 'troops' his sense of worth and justice. He has shown how great a General he is, but is still failing to show how great of a Person he is. The German who started the bread fight (I can't remember his name for the life of me) is proof enough of that. He and Lugo were there last season, but have been on their own to lead the way. Lugo seems to follow but he, in turn, does not. Spartacus needs to reassert his greatness in Character.
    That's Nemetes. I liked the back and forth between him and Spartacus during this episode. Nemetes wasn't happy when Spartacus asked him for the money that he had plundered to give it to the Pirates. Nemetes said to have earned it while Spartacus replied that he had stolen it. Nemetes carries on arguing and forces Spartacus to snap at him: "you mistake conversation for command" or something like that. I was like, uh oh, Nemetes is gonna be pissed off.

    But then at the end of the episode we learn that Nasir tried to make Nemetes open the gate so he could go in aid of Agron and the rest of the gang who were fighting the Romans but that Nemetes didn't allow him to do so. Spartacus promptly says that it was the smart thing to do to prevent more deaths and that Nemetes was following his command. I was pleased

    invisiblish wrote:
    I personally think Crixus is slowly seeing this and becoming increasingly worried of her. Understanding is great but the line has been crossed and he knows it.
    He's shown that he has his doubts when it comes to the real motives behind some of her actions but I have my doubts about him knowing for sure that she has crossed the line. Her explanation on why she attacked Ulpianus based on the fact that those who seem the meeker can turn out to be the most dangerous of them all (illustrated with a raw taste of her own experience) was within the realm of possibility. And then there was no witness to say otherwise when she explained why she killed Attius.

    What I found interesting was Spartacus' comment upon Attius' dead body. He seemed to think that it didn't make sense for Attius to risk his life helping the Romans escape after he got away with helping the rebels taking the city. It made me think that Spartcus was feeling like a piece of the puzzle was missing. Eventually the truth is gonna be found (about Laeta being resposible for helping Ulpianus and the others and not Attius) so I wonder if:

    a) Spartacus will chastise Naevia.
    b) Gannicus will chastise Naevia.
    c) Crixus will chastise Naevia
    d) Crixus will side with Naevia against those chastising her.
    e) Gannicus will develop some enmity towards Naevia (or at least hold a grudge) that might bring about something else.

    Many possibilities there and most likely none of the above
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    marknmo

    [17]Feb 15, 2013
    • member since: 03/24/06
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    invisiblish wrote:
    I'm sorry to disagree but saying that you are siding with Crassus is a bit premature. All that we know of him is that he values the life of his one slave and that he doesn't underestimate his opponent as all those before him have. In fact what we do know is that he is willing to throw away his family for his own love/lust, and will throw his soldiers to the wolves so as to gain position. Not one things there is likable other than his staying true to his word for the Gladiator who trained him. I don't even value his sense of worth to Tiberius, he knows the boy is unfit to lead, he just as much said it, and still gave him position unearned. A General who puts his men at risk under faulty leadership is at fault just as much as the incompetent leader themselves. What proof do we have? How about the entire fight with Spartacus? Not only did he attack before his entire army was there, he lost so many lives and a Captain while gaining nothing but a few petty kills. Tiberius' failures are a direct reflection of Crassus and Caesar would be correct in proving it so. Not trying to attack anyone but what redeeming quality has Crassus presented that would cause any of us to side with him?


    I do agree with these points you are making, there's a lot we don't know about Crassus. However, from what we've seen of him, especially from the first episode, I find him to be very intelligent, respectful, and empathetic towards others when he needs to be. He definitely has a ruthless side to him, such as when he sent those men to their death in order to gain advantage, but I respect him for making such a bold move and for it working in his favor. He did make a mistake putting his son out there, I agree. At first, he was completely against putting him in charge, but then (and I can't remember if it was his slave mistress or his wife) he was talked into it. I think he knew better, but I feel like he felt he needed to give his son the opportunity to prove himself at least. I'm curious to see how he's going to handle Tiberius's failure and how much he'll blame Ceasar for not being there to aid his son's decisions. I know Tiberius sent Ceasar away, but I think if Ceasar was as responsible of a man as he should be, he never would have let the situation get out of hand enough to where Tiberius felt he had to send him off. Also, I'm not trying to say that I WANT to see all of our hero gladiators die at the hands of Crassus, I'm just saying that there are a lot of negative things coming out of Spartacus's camp right now that I'm liking Crassus a little better at the moment, all cause he has a more level head on his shoulders. I'm hoping Spartacus gets his men (and himself) in line soon, though, cause I'd love to go back to cheering for Crixus and the rest like I have in the past.


    PenguinSuzie wrote:
    marknmo wrote:
    I'm still fond of Gannicus, Spartacus, and Nasir.


    I like Gannicus a lot more this season than I did before. He's really grown on me.


    I agree, he's quickly become my new favorite character of the show I think. He didn't used to be one of my favorites, but he's grown on me a ton this season. No one will ever top Ashur for me, but of the remaining cast, Gannicus is on top right now.


    boom-moo wrote:
    What I found interesting was Spartacus' comment upon Attius' dead body. He seemed to think that it didn't make sense for Attius to risk his life helping the Romans escape after he got away with helping the rebels taking the city. It made me think that Spartcus was feeling like a piece of the puzzle was missing. Eventually the truth is gonna be found (about Laeta being resposible for helping Ulpianus and the others and not Attius) so I wonder if: a) Spartacus will chastise Naevia. b) Gannicus will chastise Naevia. c) Crixus will chastise Naevia d) Crixus will side with Naevia against those chastising her. e) Gannicus will develop some enmity towards Naevia (or at least hold a grudge) that might bring about something else. Many possibilities there and most likely none of the above


    I am very curious about this as well. I think depending on how this goes, it will greatly affect my enjoyment of the rest of the season. I'd like to see option c, but I think d is much more likely given how much he's put into getting her back into his life (last season). I think he'll defend anything she does, even if he knows it's wrong. I also see e happening, but with an added conflict between Crixus and Gannicus. I dunno if it would ever escalate to where the two of them fought each other to the death, but I can definitely see some strong blows being exchanged.

    Edited on 02/15/2013 12:18pm
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    boom-moo

    [18]Feb 15, 2013
    • member since: 02/05/07
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    marknmo wrote:
    I'm curious to see how he's going to handle Tiberius's failure and how much he'll blame Ceasar for not being there to aid his son's decisions. I know Tiberius sent Ceasar away, but I think if Ceasar was as responsible of a man as he should be, he never would have let the situation get out of hand enough to where Tiberius felt he had to send him off.
    I agree that both have failed Crassus in their own way and I'm also very curious to his reaction.
    marknmo wrote:
    I also see e happening, but with an added conflict between Crixus and Gannicus. I dunno if it would ever escalate to where the two of them fought each other to the death, but I can definitely see some strong blows being exchanged.
    My fear about this situation is that an eventual Gannicus/Crixus enmity could mirror too much the Agron/Crixus enmity of the past (which was also triggered by Naevia, although as a passive subject) so if e) is to happen I put my faith in the writers so that they come up with something different this time.
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    invisiblish

    [20]Feb 16, 2013
    • member since: 01/17/07
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    boom-moo wrote:
    marknmo wrote:
    I'm curious to see how he's going to handle Tiberius's failure and how much he'll blame Ceasar for not being there to aid his son's decisions. I know Tiberius sent Ceasar away, but I think if Ceasar was as responsible of a man as he should be, he never would have let the situation get out of hand enough to where Tiberius felt he had to send him off.
    I agree that both have failed Crassus in their own way and I'm also very curious to his reaction.
    marknmo wrote:
    I also see e happening, but with an added conflict between Crixus and Gannicus. I dunno if it would ever escalate to where the two of them fought each other to the death, but I can definitely see some strong blows being exchanged.
    My fear about this situation is that an eventual Gannicus/Crixus enmity could mirror too much the Agron/Crixus enmity of the past (which was also triggered by Naevia, although as a passive subject) so if e) is to happen I put my faith in the writers so that they come up with something different this time.


    I actually think that Caesar will get a 'lecture' but Tiberius is going to be seriously punished. I have reasons from the preview of next week's episode. Tiberius is smart enough to know that Caesar was put there for a reason.

    I agree with the Gannicus-Crixus confrontation. In fact they started out as rivals, Crixus rise was to overthrow Gannicus in proper contest. I agree that they may come to blows, but I too don't think they will attempt to kill each other.

    I agree with the comments about Ashur, I really miss him for this season. I did think it was ironic how Crixus had caused his own nightmare... attacking Ashur for Gannicus' sake caused all of Naevia's pain. I do disagree with Gannicus' preception though. I liked Gannicus during Gods of the Arena but had to find a new liking for him last season. He made good points about fighting against Rome but of all people he should have been the one to detest slavery. Having lived the life of a slave, losing 'his love', and then knowing the taste of freedom... he had more reason to fight than anyone else. His reunion for Oenomaus was really redeeming and made me like him once again.

    Edit: Nemetes, I like him. He argues with Spartacus for his own goals but follows command. It's not everyday that the people whom don't follow Spartacus blindly (the Butcher and not the Blacksmith... pity to the Baker lol) live to tell the tale.
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