Episode 6 'Spoils of War' discussion thread

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    boom-moo

    [1]Mar 7, 2013
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    Please post your opinions/comments/discussion topics on episode 6 "Spoils of War" to air on March 8th here.

    -Spoilers are not allowed.
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    Thank you

    (As per usual, I'll open a discussion thread for every new episode every Thursday and keep it locked until Friday. Past experience shows that comments posted before the episode airs tend to spoil the episode for spoiler free people and also, episode discussion threads that are opened days before their airing date tend to end up buried and reopened by different users which leads to confusion and clutter. Any comments regarding this episode should be done in the Spoilers thread until the episode has aired. Thank you.)
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    invisiblish

    [2]Mar 9, 2013
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    RIP Donar
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    boom-moo

    [3]Mar 10, 2013
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    invisiblish wrote:
    RIP Donar
    Indeed Agron and Saxa are gonna be very distressed.

    It stands to reason that several of the rebels are to fall along the way but Donar's demise has been the most poignant one. Well, Diotimos was quite touching as well for me. The others that I recall are Totus in ep 3 and Sanus and Nemetes in ep 5, am I missing any other?

    Anyway, I was very pleased that Donar stood by Gannicus' side at the beginning of the episode. Gannicus has always had this touch of craziness along with his incredible bravery but still it was amazing of him to procure the others a escape. Very nice as well of Agron to go back to find Nasir. And wow at Castus saving Nasir's life! I'm glad that Agron listened to Nasir and didn't kill Castus. Now I hope that the pirate being around doesn't serve as a further means to keep Agron and Nasir at odds and that Castus ends up doing something that redeems the pirates, even though he is not to be blamed for Heracleo's decisions. After all, there must be some reasoning behind Spartacus agreeing to keep him

    This episode (well, like every other) is so well written! I couldn't help but admire Crassus but not being fooled by Gannicus's distraction and marching towards the northern gate, only to find out at the end that it had been his plan all along to have the surviving rebels do so. Kudos once again to the writers!

    Also very well thought to have Gannicus and Sibyl hide in Laeta's stable as both knew of the hiding place there. Well done! A bit too convenient for them to have some adventure together but it is quite in character of Sibyl to just hide instead of running for her life so I'll give it a pass. At least she fought for the first time which is something. And not having been for her, I guess that Laeta would have never been taken to the rebel camp. Plus she was quite useful leading Gannicus and Sibyl out of the city. Again extremely clever of the writers to put all the pieces of the puzzle together so nicely.

    I liked knowing that Diotimus and Sibyl were like siblings, he totallly looked like a kind man. It makes a bit more sense for her to be so infatuated with Gannicus since he killed the man who killed Diotimus and, very lovely put, the man who also took her life a piece at a time over the years. Is it me or Gannicus seemed a tad jealous when he misinterpreted Sibyl and though that he and Diotumus were an item? Also, Saxa wasn't too pleased to see that Gannicus had rescued Sibyl. I hope they don't go down the triangle route, it would be too predictable and boring. I have a feeling that at some point Sibyl is gonna take a stand and make a big and brave deed (probably saving Gannicus or Saxa's life) and at the cost of her life.

    Wow, the Carnificina was very creepy

    Can Crassus be any more smart? He knows all the appropriate tunes to sing to Metellus. War can't be made without money and political power after all. So clever of him to praise, please and involve the Senator in his dealings and profits. As cunning the businessman as the soldier.

    I knew that Crassus wasn't going to forgive Laeta for having helped Spartacus but whoa, I didn't think that he would bargain her off to Heracleo! Good of her to get her revenge on the pirate. I wonder how much she is going to feel more a rebel/slave than a Roman now that she has been marked and treated like one. Tiberius and Caesar can't be any more at odds. No matter what Tiberius tries he is still put to same by Caesar's prowess. Tiberius was really smart to engage Caesar into fighing Donar though, providing him with a key to remove his shackles and all! It seems like right now, the only thing under his control is Kore. I think that his threats are going to hold not because she is scared of whatever punishment may befall her but because she loves Crassus too much to hurt him. I dont think she'll breathe a word so my guess is that Tiberius will eventually spit the truth to his father's face or that Crassus will find Tiberius or Kore together but I'm inclined towards the former.

    Speaking of Crassus, I love the way he keeps looking directly at the camera at key moments along the season, it is quite powerful. And I also loved the fact that Crassus was playing with a ball like the one that wa sfeatured in episode 2 when Spartacus retrieved it for a little girl and then found her dead, ball close by, at the end of the episode.

    Oh, and nice to give Gannicus and Caesar a chance to fight each other again. So far, it's been 2 victories for Gannicus. Caesar is gonna be more and more willing to settle the score.

    Laeta has good riding skills for someone who has never done it before, doesn't she? It'd be nice if Nasir tends to Laeta's wound just like Spartacus did with him. I guess that Sibyl might help as well (we've just learnt that she used to treat her fellow slaves after all) and she is given something useful to do.
    Edited on 03/10/2013 10:47am
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    invisiblish

    [4]Mar 11, 2013
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    I don't know that Agron and Saxa will be all that distressed. I'm not saying that they weren't close, but I don't think Donar held such meaning as Nasir and Gannicus respectively. I actually was quite surprised that he survived the initial fight, I thought for sure that he had taken a fatal wound. To see that he made it all the way to a fight with Caesar and eventually took his own life was impressive, especially with that wound. If not for that wound he would have bested Caesar easily.

    You're right about Donar's death being the most meaningful yet. His character was made fairly dependable and important during the season and to lose him is a definite blow. What's lacking is Sanus' death, I could have used with a head in the hands of Heracleo.

    I like Donar and Gannicus' attempt likeable as well, despite it's ultimate failure. I actually credit Spartacus for this entire sequence of events. If not for Sparatcus' mad plans, the appeal to Gannicus and Donar would be virtually non-existant. I think the madness of the plan is actually what drove Gannicus and Donar to accept such a mission or fate. It may be me, but I haven't sensed the tension of love or whatever between Sybil and Gannicus. It may be intended, but I see Sybil in more of an admiration of Gannicus, not so much in love. I do like how Sybil had to get her hands a little dirty, but overall I like how her character remains pure. The battlefield has only enhanced her medical value, this allows her to remain as a pure innocent. Unlike many of the other slaves, as Naevia used to be, Sybil has no real blood on her hands. The war hasn't stained her character and corrupted her sense of being. Sybil represents, to me, the 'hope' of the slave rebellion: that the rebel slaves could actually find a life after this war, if they were to escape it.

    I don't think we should be all that surprised of Castus saving Nasir. We've already discussed his infatuation with the 'Syrian Boy', and have proven that he was not directly involved with Heracleo's treachery. I dismiss Spartacus keeping Castus, he kept Laeta and the others before he really had use for them. More because he is just that type of guy rather than saving everyone for future plans. Besides his knowledge of the seas, Castus has little to no use as of yet. His knowledge would be of great use were they able to escape (inevitably) the mountain ridge.

    I like that Crassus has had a master plan like Spartacus has so often had. I am actually very impressed with Crassus' character this episode. Not only did he prove his fighting prowess against current warriors (yes he had his Gladiator trainer, but he seemed aged, hence his legendary status), but he proved how great of a general he is. He took command and made sure that Caesar and the others took to his plan in the middle of the war zone. I really like his take the city walls and clear it out afterwards approach. Most of all, I loved that he finally laid eyes upon Spartacus; almost confirming his existence of the man himself. To have such an idle, unlike present day, and never see them is hard to keep, but for Crassus, the man whom he admires so, has been confirmed alive and well. More so, Spartacus' escape (ala Donar's closing the gate and Caesar's destruction of it) proved his adversary worthy of admiration. Crassus spoke a good game of being a true general, and his schemes were greatly planned and executed, but to see that he will in fact jump in and get his hands dirty is worthy of praise. I found him very appealing now because of this episode.

    Further, Crassus showed how much of a politician he is. Thus far he has said that he is above manipulation, however he is not above manipulating others. Much like he has done with Spartacus all season, Crassus has now manipulated the senator into furthering his own goals. Yes, Crassus essentially bribed the Senator into doing so, but he clearly knows how to appeal to each man's worth. Caesar was taken by glory and finances, the Senator by a villa, to which he has already taken a liking to. Crassus' only folly has been Tiberius. In fact, his only weakness appears to be boys who are not yet men. He anticipates Spartacus' actions so easily, Senator Metellus' and Laeta without thought, even Heracleo, but an unproven, underdeveloped boy he hasn't seen enough to accurately predict. Caesar he predicts because he is a soldier and 'will follow orders to a T.' Perhaps Tiberius is an issue because he is family, but I credit this issue less so than his son's actions are just too wild and unpredictable. Tiberius is essentially a teenage boy, whose hormones are controlling his every action. He feels anger and acts irrationally, he thinks himself better than he is and as such has taken loss after loss.

    Again about Crassus, his using that Carnificina was brilliant. After forcing Tiberius' soldiers into Decimation, he has rewarded those following his strict orders (see above) with embarrassment of their enemy. Crassus has reinforced negatively, and now positively, that he is to be feared and that Spartacus' men are beatable, not to be feared. Crassus has done a great job in humanizing, though he idolizes Spartacus, Spartacus and his men. Crassus men quickly took to arms to attack Gannicus, Sybil, and Laeta, though it was futile, they did not hesitate. Early in the season the Romans were hesitant to engage Naevia alone in the road, now they will engage 3 slaves one of which is baring his sword in hand. Crassus' dealing of Laeta was less about using her and more about using Heracleo. Remember, Heracleo approached Spartacus about Laeta's ownership. Crassus took advantage of the simple requests of a key figure piece, especially to expose Spartacus. I like how Laeta had just approached Caesar about doing what was necessary and resigning herself to its necessity, then was shocked at Crassus' approach and its necessity.

    I liked how Caesar took his chance to mock Tiberius. Although I think he was initially goading Tiberius, (Up HIgh, Down Low style) he quickly turned Tiberius' weariness into his own joke as well. I am starting to wonder if Tiberius will be caught by Caesar himself. Caesar was more menacing, IMO, when he was unshaven and shaggy. He seemed too proper when he was revealed to Laeta. Even when fighting Donar he seemed proper and man-like. I did like his rousing of the men though, his speech was a great hint at the power he will surely garnish later in life. I'd be interested in seeing Tiberius being manipulated by Caesar, thus far he has been outwitted but to be clearly manipulated would be make me laugh a bit.

    I find it funny to be rooting against Naevia, Laeta, and Tiberius, while rooting for Caesar, Spartacus, and Crassus. Each of these characters have shown such cruelty or poignant disrespect but only the latter group seem to be appealing in doing so. I hate to say it, but I'm kind of looking forward to the death of a 'true rebel slave' just because I think it will be truly glorious like Donar's. I'm afraid that someone will have a disgraceful death, though I'm unsure on who or how.
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    boom-moo

    [5]Mar 11, 2013
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    invisiblish wrote:
    I don't know that Agron and Saxa will be all that distressed. I'm not saying that they weren't close, but I don't think Donar held such meaning as Nasir and Gannicus respectively.
    I personally think that Donar held a lot of meaning to them. They were all from the East of the Rhine and seemed to get along just fine. Maybe those scenes come to mind quickly because I'm fond of them but I seem to recall them being seen together often and fighting side too side very well like at the end of episode 5.

    invisiblish wrote:
    It may be me, but I haven't sensed the tension of love or whatever between Sybil and Gannicus. It may be intended, but I see Sybil in more of an admiration ofGannicus, not so much in love
    I haven't either. I think she is absolutely infatuated with him as in obsessively fond of him. He was there at the right moment and the right time and she has become fascinated with this image of a hero to which she clings to sort of compulsively. Sibyl doesn't seem to know what to do with her life now that she is free, and as you point out (and very nicely indeed) she is too pure and innocent to become a fighting rebel and blend in.

    As for Gannicus, much as he tries to save her from herself and her fancies, the constant pushing her away ironically brings them closer somehow. It's like that sort responsibility that one feels towards those who show an interest for you even though you don't return it in kind (providing they are not crazy or annoying). Be as it might, Sibyl has been written in for a reason and I guess we are yet to see something big coming from her as I mentioned before.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I do like how Sybil had to get her hands a little dirty, but overall I like how her character remains pure. The battlefield has only enhanced her medical value, this allows her to remain as a pure innocent. Unlike many of the other slaves, as Naevia used to be, Sybil has no real blood on her hands. The war hasn't stained her character and corrupted her sense of being. Sybil represents, to me, the 'hope' of the slave rebellion: that the rebel slaves could actually find a life after this war, if they were to escape it.
    Very nicely put I don't think that Sibyl is gonna have that chance though but it's nice to think that there are others like her who will be luckier.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I don't think we should be all that surprised of Castus saving Nasir. We've already discussed his infatuation with the 'Syrian Boy', and have proven that he was not directly involved with Heracleo's treachery.
    Sorry, I didn't explain myself clearly. I wasn't surprised that he saved Nasir's life because of those reasons. I meant that Nasir could have fallen not being because Castus was there fighting at his side. I know it was written that way for dramatic purposes and I know that all the rebels are close to death all the time but ep 6 could have been the last for Nasir otherwise.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I dismiss Spartacus keeping Castus, he kept Laeta and the others before he really had use for them. More because he is just that type of guy rather than saving everyone for future plans.
    Indeed, that's his nature. But like in Sibyl's case, there must be a reason for Castus to stick around (story-wise) even if Spartacus wasn't thinking of benefiting from the pirate's worth when he took him along. At least I really hope so because Castus being the narrative device to have Agron and Nasir at odds is growing old.

    invisiblish wrote:
    Crassus men quickly took to arms to attack Gannicus, Sybil, and Laeta, though it was futile, they did not hesitate. Early in the season the Romans were hesitant to engage Naevia alone in the road, now they will engage 3 slaves one of which is baring his sword in hand.
    I don't think it was that futile. The two unarmed women weren't a threat and they were a dozen or so against a single man, albeit a fearsome gladiator. I don't think that the odds were that clearly to Gannicus' side. I agree that the Decimation is very much present in every one of Crassus' men's minds though.

    As for the Naevia scene, she was like digging in the ground or something. As I recall it the Romans didn't kill her rightaway not because they were reluctant to fight and held concerns for their own safety but because they were confused about what she was doing. Also, she would have been more helpful alive as she could have known of Spartacus' whereabouts (or, awful as it sounds, she could even might have been used for their sport).

    invisiblish wrote:
    Crassus' dealing of Laeta was less about using her and more about using Heracleo.
    It was but from the moment that Crassus learnt of Laeta helping Spartacus he stopped considering her a Roman of worth. Even though Metellus didn't allow for the first conversation between Crassus and Laeta to end, the feeling that he would end up using her to his advantage was left hanging.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I like how Laeta had just approached Caesar about doing what was necessary and resigning herself to its necessity, then was shocked at Crassus' approach and its necessity.
    Sadly ironic indeed. Just as she was starting to allow herself to feel safe again she is yet given another hard blow. I really felt for her after she killed Heracleo and Gannicus was to leave her behind. She wasn't wanted neither by the Romans nor the rebels. She was very smart addressing Gannicus as a slave and appealing to his feelings, although I think that she did it more out of genuine truth and desperation than out of necessity.

    invisiblish wrote:
    Caesar was more menacing, IMO, when he was unshaven and shaggy. He seemed too proper when he was revealed to Laeta. Even when fighting Donar he seemed proper and man-like.
    He looked wilder and more impredictable to me but his proper Roman look stands formidable and rather menacing as well. It's like one of those Jekyll and Mr. Hyde cases where the looks can be misleading. Unlike Crassus, I think that Caesar still held a lot of respeect for Laeta despite knowing of her actions and thought of her as a fellow Roman and worthy of all respect and, imo, that's why he stood very much the gentleman when he revealed himself to her. And when fighting Donar, he couldn't be himself either. He was under the scrutiny of Metellus, Crassus and all the lesser soldiers so he had to be at his "best Roman behaviour", seeking to humiliate Tiberius whithout making it too obvious not to shame his father and also keeping it all cool not to ruin the hard work that Crassus was doing with the Senator.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I find it funny to be rooting against Naevia, Laeta, and Tiberius, while rooting for Caesar, Spartacus, and Crassus. Each of these characters have shown such cruelty or poignant disrespect but only the latter group seem to be appealing in doing so.
    I like it that way. I love it that I can relate to "goodies" and "badies", love them and hate them depending on the occasion.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I hate to say it, but I'm kind of looking forward to the death of a 'true rebel slave' just because I think it will be truly glorious like Donar's.
    Gah, me too.

    invisiblish wrote:
    I'm afraid that someone will have a disgraceful death, though I'm unsure on who or how.
    Disgraceful how? I hope not cowardly. I can't see either shaming themselves but I can imagine that someone could meet their end in a fashion where they are robbed of the chance to face death with honor which would be absolutely horrible to witness
    Edited on 03/11/2013 11:01am
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    invisiblish

    [6]Mar 11, 2013
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    I just don't see all of the Rebels getting honorable deaths, more so with Nasir, Naevia, and Saxa (as neither had been in the arena to really garner such honor) but I feel like someone is going to get an improper death. Much like the Proximo from Gladiator, a death unfitting the character. To use Lord of the Rings as an example: if Boromir hadn't risen to protect Frodo before his untimely death, he would have had a disgraceful death. Not being able to fight to your nature or a defeat removed from the true fight would be sad to see. Imagine if Gannicus was defeated by the Romans while protecting Sybil in the stables, or if he received a fatal blow rather than Laeta's deadly blow... truly sad wouldn't you agree?
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    boom-moo

    [7]Mar 11, 2013
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    I see your point now, and I agree.

    However, very sad as it would have been for Gannicus to die in such a fashion, that computes as honorable to me. At least he would have been fighting the Romans to his last breath even if I'm with you that he deserves a better scenario and much more elevated circumstances on par with his gladiator status.

    Nasir, Naevia, and Saxa...anyone really who makes a stand, does their best and dies fighting would be equally honorable to me, regardless of their skills.

    What I'd find dishonorable would be something like what Nemetes attempted (assuming he really wanted to see it through), any kind of betrayal to themselves or to the others just to save their own skin.

    And what I'd really find disgraceful would be for anyone to be captured and butchered without being allowed the chance to fight back (like Donar claimed for himself), the most recent example being those killed in the carnificina during this episode. I really, really hope we don't get to see anything like that.
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    invisiblish

    [8]Mar 11, 2013
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    I'm hoping as well, but for some reason I see that coming for someone. I agree with Nemetes, he hadn't earned the honor title, though even if he had, he would have lost it as soon as we discovered the Roman woman with Caesar. I just fear someone major will lose their honor. Not necessarily Saxa or Lugo, but more so Nasir, Naevia, Gannicus, Spartacus, or Crixus. It's not realistic, but I do worry that it could happen to someone.
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    boom-moo

    [9]Mar 11, 2013
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    I really hope that you are wrong If it is to happen, I can very well wait until the last episode. I'm gonna cry a river once the show is over anyway.
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    invisiblish

    [10]Mar 12, 2013
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    boom-moo wrote:
    I really hope that you are wrong If it is to happen, I can very well wait until the last episode. I'm gonna cry a river once the show is over anyway.


    Agreed.

    In lighter, or other I suppose, news it seems that Spartacus and Crixus are going to resume their disagreements while Naevia seems to get herself into some trouble.

    I'm also quite sure that Tiberius will be up to some sort of mischief again.
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    boom-moo

    [11]Mar 12, 2013
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    I think that Naevia's troubles will be short lived, Crixus seems to be close enough to come to the rescue. Not that sure about Spartacus and Crixus disagreements though.

    Tiberius is the one checking out the swords, right? It looks like he is up to something indeed. I hope that he doesn't mess up too badly and ends up ruining Crassus' trap on Spartacus.

    Now in this video Steven DeKnight says that Gannicus decides to stay in Sinuessa and distract the Romans because of his reckless nature but that he also has a deeper reason and that's Sibyl. I never saw it that way, how could he know that she hadn't left the city already? Actually, when she comes out of hiding he is very surprised plus he isn't seen looking for her at all. I agree that he wants to help the innocent people get away from the city, but the Sibyl factor doesn't translate in the way that Steven explains it. I guess it was some unfortunate editing of the interview.
    Edited on 03/12/2013 12:33pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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    invisiblish

    [12]Mar 12, 2013
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    DeKnight might not mean Sybil directly, but Sybil's words. She begs for Gannicus to keep safe in the previous episode. DeKnight might mean that Sybil's words are finally reaching Gannicus; Gannicus even says as much during the episode.

    Edited on 03/12/2013 8:23pm
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    boom-moo

    [13]Mar 13, 2013
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    Hmmm I don't know, I remain unconvinced. I think her "optimism" so to speak and her faith in her gods helping guide Gannicus' hand started to sink in after they found themselves trapped together and they kept (well, Gannicus mostly) beating the odds time and again.
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