Episode 7 'Mors Indecepta' discussion thread

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    boom-moo

    [1]Mar 15, 2013
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    Please post your opinions/comments/discussion topics on episode 7 "Mors Indecepta" to air on March 15th here.

    -Spoilers are not allowed.
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    -Discussion is welcome, arguing is not.
    -Trolls won't be fed, ignore and report it is.
    -Be respecful, keep it cool.



    Thank you

    (As per usual, I'll open a discussion thread for every new episode every Thursday and keep it locked until Friday. Past experience shows that comments posted before the episode airs tend to spoil the episode for spoiler free people and also, episode discussion threads that are opened days before their airing date tend to end up buried and reopened by different users which leads to confusion and clutter. Any comments regarding this episode should be done in the Spoilers thread until the episode has aired. Thank you.)
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    invisiblish

    [2]Mar 16, 2013
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    Once again... RIP Donar.

    So Kore takes to the Rebel Army, quite possibly to end Spartacus once she figures out who is who. Gannicus finally succumbs to Sybil's charm at the expense of his doomed relationship with Saxa. Crixus and Spartacus reunited after a fight and failed plan of Spartacus'.

    Finally Spartacus realizes what he should have already known: nothing Crassus presents is as it seems... nothing. You would think that after learning of how Crassus trapped Laeta and Spartacus himself, then caught Spartacus off kilter with Caesar and then the Sicilians... you would just hope that he would learn to not think he knows what Crassus will do. I count 5 total times that Spartacus walked into Crassus' hand and somehow managed to escape (including tonight's trap). Heck if you count the fact that Spartacus did in fact fall to Crassus' trench and wall that's 6!!! Glad to see Spartacus finally gather his wits. While I disagree wholeheartedly with Crixus, he raised a great point: Spartacus was too fixated on his schemes. Spartacus did well to counter Glabur, yet with Crassus he seemed to stick with his own wits and plans; never once did we see Spartacus consider what Crassus' move(s) would be. Spartacus simply expected Crassus to fall into line and play his part as unwitting Roman General. A bit aggravating but I'm glad to see that Spartacus is focused again.

    It would seem that Caesar's involvement with the Kore-Tiberius situation has taken a turn for the worst. Not only does Tiberius' betrayal remain a secret, but Caesar is now blamed for aiding Kore in her escape. This does lead us to question one thing: what exactly does Caesar know of Kore and Tiberius? He seemed to imply that he knew what she would be telling Crassus and yet he stood defending his choices and reasoning in doing so.

    Way to go Spartacus in deciding a course of action that wasn't likely suicide. Better yet, using all that he had in doing so.

    Way to go Nasir and Agron, each for their aid of Castus.
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    boom-moo

    [3]Mar 16, 2013
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    invisiblish wrote:
    what exactly does Caesar know of Kore and Tiberius? He seemed to imply that he knew what she would be telling Crassus and yet he stood defending his choices and reasoning in doing so.
    To the risk of putting too much faith in Crassus, I think it's a plan for Kore to bring Spartacus down. Whatever she told Caesar (I don't think it was the truth or at least, the bit of truth that involves Tiberius abusing her but I liked that Caesar hesitated at first to even listen to her) it worked wonders and she found herself in the encampment, ready to set things in motion.

    The only thing that gives me pause is the fact that Crassus more or less plainly told her that Tiberius is his son and will always be loved regardless of his shortcomings whereas she is just a woman, to be kept from his home and to be enjoyed whenever he sees fit. Anyway, I think that's precisely written in to act as a deception and make viewers believe that Kore is acting of her own will and having a true change of heart... not buying it.

    Still, I think that it's all a well-thought plan and that Kore will concern himself later with the whole Tiberius situation and that she will find a way to use the war against Spartacus as a way to rid herself of the boy.

    Colour me excited!

    As for the actual episode:

    -Gannicus refusing Saxa at the sight of Sibyl and then sleeping with her? Alright then... I don't see it.

    -Tiberius still mourning Sabinus and speaking of him all the time, cute.

    -Agron getting over himself and fighting side by side with Castus, cute.

    -Spartacus filling in the trench with his dead people... as effective as creepy.

    -Best line of the episode: "Gannicus will not fall to wind and ice. Wine forever in his blood will keep him warm" Lmao!
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    invisiblish

    [4]Mar 16, 2013
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    I had a different viewing of the events with Kore and Caesar. Maybe it was just me but it seemed that while speaking with Crassus Kore came to the conclusion that he would never choose her over Tiberius. That light seemed to click in her eyes before bedding him. What's more, I believe she told Caesar that she could bring Tiberius down, and that if not she could take Spartacus down herself giving Caesar credit for his aid. This would raise Caesar above Tiberius, perhaps Crassus himself, as he sent a woman to end Spartacus' life.
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    boom-moo

    [5]Mar 17, 2013
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    Well, we are in agreement then. Kore "seemed" more than decided to tell Crassus the truth about Tiberius but his words about always forgiving his son's faults gave her pause. However, I don't think that she was going to tell him about Tiberius to start with. It has been written so that we are lead to believe so but I think that Kore wanted to engage Crassus into conversation about how to bring Spartacus down together (so that she can bring Tiberius down herself with the help of Caesar in the process).

    After having witnessed the carnificina, I don't think that Kore wants that for herself so I doubt that she has truly turned on the Romans to join the rebels' cause. I believe that she is working in alliance with Crassus to bring Spartacus down for which Caesar is a most valuable instrument (and one that would get a benefit of his own too). The only thing that Kore is doing on her own (or rather, the only thing that she is hiding from Crassus) is planning Tiberius' fall along with Spartacus' in which Caesar is gonna be much happy to oblige.

    I just remembered that Crassus at some point says that the time for deceptions is about to end, and he says is after Spartacus manages to escape from his trap involving Donar, so it hints at a further (and seemingly last) deception to happen yet. If anything, writers are very clever and careful with their words and every one of them counts.

    _____________

    As a random note, some of the Spartacus cast and crew have joined in Adam Bouska’s “NOH 8” campaign so that's another really nice photoshoot for those interested (Just Google it, the photoshoot is massive).

    Edited on 03/17/2013 8:11am
    Edited 2 total times.
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    invisiblish

    [6]Mar 18, 2013
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    As much as I like your reasoning, I have to completely (and respectively) disagree with you. Crassus being done with tricks and deception may not be over, but Crassus would never impede on his own legacy. Crassus intends to receive glory from his victory over Spartacus. He sent Caesar into the rebel camp not to slay Spartacus but aid in the dysfunction of the Rebel leader. Besides Crassus wanting to crush Spartacus with his own hands, Crassus would never trust his legacy to a anyone but himself, nor would he trust it to a plan he has already inacted (Caesar). Crassus has too much respect for Spartacus to continue with the same scheme (Crassus isn't a 1-trick Pony). Crassus seemed infuriated that the weather would decimate Spartacus and the rebels before he could arrive with his army.

    I feel like Spartacus has made a few mistakes along this season: not entrusting Crixus enough, barking at Nemetes often, repeatedly underestimating Crassus' deceptive tactics. However, Crassus made his first true mistake: not marching on Spartacus and the rebels. Instead of Marching on them, he used another trick and failed to deal a blow to Spartacus. Maybe he was too preoccupied with reinstating Tiberius, but he trick was a true mistake on his part. While the weather delayed him from enacting the full frontal assault I'm not all that convinced he would have. The full frontal assault would have been a correct move as Spartacus' men have been half starved, half frozen (fully frozen after the storm) but Crassus favors deception.

    Spartacus is correct in saying that they would be decimated by Crassus in a head to head battle, his numbers are too fresh and inexperienced now. What's worse is that Crassus isn't your typical Roman general, he isn't going to march his entire army down your throat. Crassus would march a good amount yet keep his reserves in position to flank in a timely and most effective manner.

    I don't know who threw that spear at Crassus but what a missed opportunity. Maybe it was luck for Crassus or just a bad throw but a missed opportunity regardless.
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    boom-moo

    [7]Mar 18, 2013
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    My theory might not prove correct at all but as I see it, devising a final plot involving Kore wouldn't prevent Crassus from receiving the glory he is so anxious for in defeating Spartacus. And by using Caesar as a pawn he grants him a slice of the cake that Kore will serve him in a silver tray.
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    PenguinSuzie

    [8]Mar 19, 2013
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    Great episode! Very exciting. I thought Crixus was going to die in this one. He's a very reckless and emotional rather than logical person, if I liked him more I think I'd be quite frustrated to see him become so dense. Though he's always been a hothead. It makes him seem very impulsive and even stupid.

    Did those people go outside to pray? It seemed that way rather than there just not being enough room in or around the camp (as even in between the tents or close to them would have helped them instead of going way out which was clearly suicide).

    What was that little bunker thing that Gannicus came across? It did seem more like wreckage than something someone had built. When they were in it it looked like it was full of dead bodies, so I thought it was somewhere that maybe the Romans had shoved their dead, but when he and Sybil lay down together it seemed empty. At first I was like gross you guy are going to start rutting in a pile of corpses. There doesn't seem to have been any though so I don't know why it looked like that. The lighting etc, I must have imagined it. I don't buy the Sibyl/Gannicus relationship, though that might be because I like her less and less every episode. I find her annoying. Also I don't ship Saxa and Gannicus at all but it was a little jarring seeing her worry for him and try and find him then him having sex with Sibyl. :/

    I'm really not looking forward to Laeta/Spartacus.

    On another note they talk really quietly and even with the volume turned up it's sometimes hard to hear them.

    Edited on 03/19/2013 10:00am
    Edited 4 total times.
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    invisiblish

    [9]Mar 19, 2013
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    I'm more accepting of the Gannicus-Sybil relationship I guess. Mostly because I speculated from the first instance of Gannicus and Sybil (thanks to Saxa) that Gannicus was in awe of Sybil and her beauty. Clearly Sybil was infatuated with Gannicus so much so that she almost got them both killed. Gannicus repeatedly saving her and finding a conscience (ie. drinking less) easily let him tempt fate. I don't see the entire issue of this, he ran this exact course during Gods of the Arena: drank and laid with whatever woman he could until he finally bed his friend's wife and felt something more for her. He said it then as he said it now: it was not what he wanted.

    I can understand if someone says they don't have chemistry or that the acting isn't great but to say it is unbelievable is a bit of a stretch to me.
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    PenguinSuzie

    [10]Mar 19, 2013
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    I didn't say it was unbelievable. It seemed obvious what was going to happen. I think I heard about her and her story with him before the series even started (since it was already known that she'd continue to appear from trailers etc) and the direction that their relationship would go in seemed pretty obvious from the start, or at least very likely. So it's not that I find it unbelievable I just don't like that their dynamic has become a sexual one, to be honest even if it hadn't become romantic I find their whole dynamic sort of awkward. It always seemed like that's what would happen, I just don't like them together. I should have phrased it better. By saying I don't buy them together I only meant that their relationship doesn't work for me. It was pretty poor wording.
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    invisiblish

    [11]Mar 20, 2013
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    My apologies, I meant to present the relationship as more appealing as opposed to how I did. I actually like this relationship, more so because it shows character growth with Gannicus. Granted it going to a sexual nature wasn't absolutely necessary but I'm glad we've seen his character grow more. Gannicus wasn't exactly going off to save anyone or do anything for anyone but himself until recently. Up to this moment the most selfless thing he did was volunteer to execute Oenomaus and Crixus. Looking to avenge Attius, being more open to Sybil's beliefs, even going so far as to save her (twice now), those are all things that his character would not have done. Gannicus would especially not be inclined to do so for anyone that he did not have significant history with.

    Sad to say but most of the Rebels have grown to their extent; we know what each character will do for the most part. Even Naevia who was going off the deep end has returned to predictability. A bit of growth for any of them is good to me.
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    Swift79b

    [12]Mar 21, 2013
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    invisiblish wrote:
    I feel like Spartacus has made a few mistakes along this season: not entrusting Crixus enough, barking at Nemetes often, repeatedly underestimating Crassus' deceptive tactics. However, Crassus made his first true mistake: not marching on Spartacus and the rebels. Instead of Marching on them, he used another trick and failed to deal a blow to Spartacus. Maybe he was too preoccupied with reinstating Tiberius, but he trick was a true mistake on his part. While the weather delayed him from enacting the full frontal assault I'm not all that convinced he would have. The full frontal assault would have been a correct move as Spartacus' men have been half starved, half frozen (fully frozen after the storm) but Crassus favors deception.


    I completely agree that Spartacus has repeatedly underestimated Crassus. Crassus is not your average Imperator, he is without a doubt a master of tricks and deception and if there is one theme that has constantly ran this entire season is that he is always one step ahead. Crassus is more well suited to bring Spartacus down than everyone else. No other Commander would even attempt what he plotted - sending Caesar as a roman 00VII in the midst of the rebellion camp, trapping Spartacus afterwards... I think Crassus enjoys this "cat-and-mouse" game (finally, an opponent worth killing, right?) Tiberius is the wild card in Crassus' grand scheme... he is young and eager to prove himself to his father and did make a rash decision that led to the decimation and fall of his confidant. Since then, he has changed - hardened by the events, the glimpse of misguided youth has now disappeared from his eyes. He is now on the warpath with my favourite "spy", Caesar. (personally, I'm rooting for Caesar) Well this can't be easy for Crassus - not only it falls on him to plot and oversee everything but he has to worry about the friction between Caesar and Tiberius. As Crassus well knows, internal division in his ranks would not help him defeat Spartacus... and with the threat of Pompey's return, I'm sure he wants to end the rebellion as quickly and efficiently as possible.


    Kore's apparent deflection to the rebels was the biggest surprise of it all for me... though I think there is more to it. Somehow, I don't see Kore joining the rebels - yes, she's been mistreated recently but the show has portrayed her as a slave with an elevated status quo in Crassus' household. She is indeed a slave, but her unusual and close relationship with Crassus is what makes me think there is more to this story... (maybe the final deception/trick?)


    Now... the biggest issue of it all: Spartacus-Crixus partnership. I don't feel Spartacus has made a mistake in not entrusting Crixus, I see Crixus as being the muscle rather than the brain. He is a great warrior but he is hot-headed and impulsive, and seldom puts others' needs before his own, unless we are talking about Naevia, of course. The only reason Crixus joined Spartacus in the first place was to find Naevia and now he seems to stick around to parch Naevia's thirst of vengeance on any and every roman out there. He fails to see beyond "right now" and if it depended on him, they would have all gone to Elysium back in Inuessa. Spartacus has come a long way since breaking from the shackles of Batiatus - he is now faced with the worries of a Leader: food, water, care for the injured and a place to settle for the thousands of slaves that have joined him. He knows that only a small percentage is able to match the fighting skills of a "well-oiled machine" (hehe or legion) and he seems to be contemplating more and more on how to keep them safe rather than fighting at every chance he gets - that's the heavy burden of good Leader, I'm afraid. Surprisingly enough, my favourite drinking/whoremonger of them all, Gannicus, seems to be more of a Leader than Crixus these days. He's finally starting to see things though Spartacus eyes, though he still says he's "no Leader", but being around Sybil is definitely changing him. (dare I even say, he looks more at peace!?) I don't think the divide between Crixus and Spartacus was made more clear than the day Crixus incited everyone to kill all romans in Inuessa - Spartacus fights because he believes that all men/women should be free, while Crixus seems to (still) be on the old payback rampage (spurred by none other than Naevia). This will be their downfall, without a doubt - though they started together, they now seem to be walking different paths.


    invisiblish wrote:
    Even Naevia who was going off the deep end has returned to predictability.


    ...I don't think Naevia has quite changed yet. I think she will be the main force driving Crixus and Spartacus further apart.

    Edited on 03/21/2013 5:45am
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    invisiblish

    [13]Mar 21, 2013
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    I agree, Naevia isn't quite back on her cracker and will cause some demise between the Rebels.

    Also to clarify: I don't mean to say that Spartacus isn't trusting enough of Crixus or using Crixus properly. By all rights Crixus was exactly where he should be: preparing the new Rebel Slaves for combat as Doctore. He was a Gladiator long before Spartacus and Agron, and cares far more about their preparation than Gannicus. Crixus using Nemetes to gauge Caesar's loyalties was also the proper move. Nemetes is the shady kind of character that would be most useful in such a task. Nemetes failure was of his own right, especially with his ways of gauging loyalties. Nemetes fell for Caesar's lies hook, line, and sinker (not to discredit the great work by Caesar).

    I mean to say that Spartacus has failed as a caretaker with Crixus. Spartacus has known since the initial plot of rising against Batiatus that he and Crixus did not always see eye to eye. If not for Batiatus' plot against Crixus (the drug in his meal) Crixus would never have joined Spartacus. After Crixus and Agron split their decisions to rescue Naevia or free the Slave ships, Spartacus did a good job of care-taking Crixus. After Crixus was captured, Spartacus and Agron joined forces to care-take (and in this case save all together) Crixus. After all that care-taking, Spartacus just stops. Granted, he shouldn't have to caretake Crixus anymore but a blockhead is a blockhead. He has known that Crixus is a blockhead and just stopped care-taking. You have to pet, feed, and brush your horse for you to continue to ride your horse into the ground. Even after they had the disagreement and Heracleo brought them back together (proving that Crixus would protect Spartacus no matter what) Spartacus went back to his habit of not care-taking Crixus.

    Spartacus was doing a great job when using Crassus' information to gain advantage. He called his council (Gannicus, Agron, & Crixus) and then devised the plan. He took Crixus along!!! Crixus got his bloodlust, Gannicus got his crazed fun, and Agron took lead of the camp. Even in the taking of the city, Crixus was involved. Ever since taking the city, Crixus was left to his task and not involved on the overall plan. We never saw Spartacus reprimand Crixus for his Gladitorial battle of the 2 Romans, if he even did. Spartacus has made better point of passing his beliefs on, as we have seen with Gannicus all season long. Yet when it comes to his 'Blood Brother' he has failed to make such beliefs and plans clear. Don't put your Pitbull on a leash in the front yard; he tends to bite, nip, and be chippy with the lack of care.
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    Swift79b

    [14]Mar 21, 2013
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    invisiblish wrote:
    I mean to say that Spartacus has failed as a caretaker with Crixus. Spartacus has known since the initial plot of rising against Batiatus that he and Crixus did not always see eye to eye.

    (Sorry, I misunderstood!) Good point! Spartacus has failed Crixus ever since taking Inuessa... true enough, they never saw each other eye to eye but they had common goals and they seemed to have managed to find common ground. Back in the beginning of Vengeance, Crixus and "his men" (the Gauls) were running a little amock and tension was still flying high between them, but after freeing Naevia from the mines and subsequently rescuing Crixus himself, they seemed to be getting along, to the point that in my eyes both Spartacus and Crixus were leading the rebels side by side. But the dynamics changed completely in War of the Damned. I see Spartacus burdened by the weight of leading a rebellion and Crixus still as much of a blood-thirsty warrior as before... even if Agron or Gannicus don't share the same beliefs as Spartacus does, they would still follow his wishes. Crixus however is a whole different type of "beast" altogether.

    invisiblish wrote:
    Spartacus was doing a great job when using Crassus' information to gain advantage. He called his council (Gannicus, Agron, & Crixus) and then devised the plan. He took Crixus along!!! Crixus got his bloodlust, Gannicus got his crazed fun, and Agron took lead of the camp. Even in the taking of the city, Crixus was involved. Ever since taking the city, Crixus was left to his task and not involved on the overall plan.

    LOL Perfect plan! Everyone was happy and things got done.
    I think Naevia's instability and downward spiral directly contributed to Crixus not being included in the overall plan. Ever since taking Inuessa, Crixus increasingly reminds Spartacus to go out on a full scale attack but Spartacus in turn has many other worries and is not as quick to jump at the chance. The chapters in Inuessa revealed a darker side to the men in the rebellion. Spartacus may not have done much but I don't think he was oblivious to it all and I cannot blame him - it can't have been easy to keep them all motivated to fight for him and still quench their thirst for payback. The little incidents that happened in Inuessa coupled with the constant challenges by Crixus, lead to Spartacus relying more on Agron and Gannicus than in Crixus himself, in my opinion. "The time for talk is over" Spartacus once said to Agron. Crixus, no doubt affected by Naevia's instability, became increasingly thirsty for even more blood and in Spartacus' eyes, no longer held the same place of trust as before. I don't think this will change now - when fighting they seem to stand as one but after the good old one-on-one display of last episode's, I don't think they will overcome their differences now.
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    invisiblish

    [17]Mar 22, 2013
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    Agreed, if they have further conflict, which seems more than probable, that will be the costly point of their rebellion. Something like they are talking and suddenly boom goes the dynamite, Crassus has already marched his army to their front door.
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