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The Borg

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    beowulf579

    [1]Apr 18, 2006
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    Wow....saw Regeneration and it wasn't bad. Wasn't great, but wasn't bad.

    The biggest flaws have to be;
    1. Phlox taking sooo long to assimilate. My gosh..the Borg should know his species from all the Federation ppl and tech they assimilated.
    2. They left two Borg floating about in space. They shouldn't be dead...yet. And even if they are..the tech still works.
    3. A major loose end with the Starfleet just forgetting all about the Borg. They could have had a few minutes showing Section 31 or someone hiding the knowledge.
    4. The hand phasers should not be taking down so many Borg. Maybe one...but after dealing with 24th century Federation tech...22nd Tech should be easy.
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    alex20020712

    [2]Apr 18, 2006
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    beowulf579 wrote:
    Wow....saw Regeneration and it wasn't bad. Wasn't great, but wasn't bad.


    No, it was awful.

    beowulf579 wrote:
    The biggest flaws have to be;
    3. A major loose end with the Starfleet just forgetting all about the Borg. They could have had a few minutes showing Section 31 or someone hiding the knowledge.


    You are assuming there was a "Section 31" at the time. Still, hiding something like this would have been logistically impossible, not to mention--why would they even do that?

    There are plot holes, and plot holes. This one was a plot black hole that sucked all intelligence within the event horizon.
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    lobomensch

    [3]Apr 18, 2006
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    Section 31 did exist at that time... Reed dealt with them quite a bit, even called in favor from them in "Demons." Did you watch the 4th season?
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    lobomensch

    [4]Apr 18, 2006
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    I do agree with all of the points you made in your note, Kirke, though I do have a very hard time reconciling it with the continuty, esepcially in regards to "Q Who?" My biggest pet peeve that you did address was Starfleet somehow forgetting it, though the Section 31 idea would help explain it. Amazing how Zephrem Cochrane, Lily etc. didn't leave any observations about them either.
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    beowulf579

    [5]Apr 18, 2006
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    Oh...don't get me wrong. I agree with the massive plot holes in the story. But I can't say I found it completly disapointing. If they were going to do this, they should have took a little more time and fleshed it out to two eps or such and take the time to fill in the gaps.

    Now if I was a die-hard fan, I guess I would get erked by the ep. But after watching the Borg go from Uber-Demon at their into in the Next Generation to wimps in Voyager (considering how they first were introduced) the ENT showing of them doesn't bother me too much.
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    lobomensch

    [6]Apr 18, 2006
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    Exactly, a two-parter should have been done for this like the Mirror eps. Actually, most two-episode plots on here were pretty well done, discounting the Temporal War and Xindi Nazi mess. Other two-parters that would've been good would've been further exploration of both the Andorian and Tellarite cultures/homeworlds, and something involving Denobulus. I thought this was supposed to be a show about exploration, not time-warps and current event retreads.
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    alex20020712

    [7]Apr 18, 2006
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    lobomensch wrote:
    Did you watch the 4th season?


    Clearly not. Yet.

    lobomensch wrote:
    My biggest pet peeve that you did address was Starfleet somehow forgetting it, though the Section 31 idea would help explain it.


    Not much. First of all, there would be no reason to "hide" this information. Second of all, no one can keep secrets for too long--specially government or Starfleet agencies. Third of all, exactly how would they do this? Chasing down every officer and wiping his or her memory?

    The logic holes in all these theories are bad enough to create a subspace rift and destroy the space-time continuum.
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    lobomensch

    [8]Apr 18, 2006
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    To prevent a general panic, they would keep this under wraps. Imagine even now if proof of something like this hit this world, the sorry shape it is in.
    No one can keep secrets for too long? Look at how many people still accept Pearl Harbor as being a surprise attack. Or the Northwoods plan for Fidel's Cuba, Operation Paperclip in the 1950s and so on. By the time something like this would've eventually leaked out, it would be considered so far in the past that no one would consider it a threat.
    No need to "wipe everyone's memory" -- there is such a thing as discrediting anyone that would report it as "conspiracy theorists" as the mainstream media does now for anyone that dares question the status quo. Humans still haven't really evolved beyond their ignorant attitudes as shown with the Terra Prime movement, and it would be easy to sweep this under the rug.
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    alex20020712

    [9]Apr 19, 2006
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    lobomensch wrote:
    To prevent a general panic, they would keep this under wraps.


    That is not how Starfleet operates, and they would not keep this knowledge from starship captains.

    lobomensch wrote:
    Imagine even now if proof of something like this hit this world, the sorry shape it is in.
    No one can keep secrets for too long? Look at how many people still accept Pearl Harbor as being a surprise attack.


    Is there any question Pearl Harbor happened? No. Could you supress all knowledge and evidence of it, pretend it never happened? No.

    lobomensch wrote:
    No need to "wipe everyone's memory" -- there is such a thing as discrediting anyone that would report it as "conspiracy theorists" as the mainstream media does now for anyone that dares question the status quo.


    That makes no sense. They could not discredit Archer, the doctor, and the entire crew. Even if they tried, a record of this story would exist in Picard's time.

    There is no plausible explanation or rationalization for it, if you really think about it. The writers were counting on you *not* thinking too much about it.
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    SRP76

    [10]Apr 19, 2006
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    One thing that sticks with me:

    We saw in Star Trek: First Contact that the Borg would need to construct a device (interplexing beacon) to contact their Delta Quadrant-bound brethren in the 2060s, presumably because the Borg of that time weren't as technologically advanced way back then.

    But this is a century later! The Borg should have progressed GREATLY (considering how rapidly they devour new technologies) in the intervening 100 years. They should have been able to contact their 22nd-century ilk with NO restriction. Consider: establishing the "net" to contact, control, and keep track of the hive would logically be the FIRST thing a society that relies on a group consciousness would work to improve; all other adaptations would come later.

    I have a hard time believing that the Borg hadn't perfected some kind of far-reaching "nose for their own" in an entire century.
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    lobomensch

    [11]Apr 19, 2006
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    alex20020712 wrote:
    That is not how Starfleet operates, and they would not keep this knowledge from starship captains.


    Starfleet might not operate that way but Section 31 does. And they are aware of and condone it's presence and steps it takes to preserve the status quo. See DS9's "Inquisition" on this.

    alex20020712 wrote:
    Is there any question Pearl Harbor happened? No. Could you supress all knowledge and evidence of it, pretend it never happened? No.


    You can, however, pass a cover story to what the mitigating circumstances were that led to the event, to downplay it's true origin and turn people's attention elsewhere. That Japan just attacked us out of the blue - never mind that they had been cutting off fuel routes and antagonizing them to begin with. Outside of the Enterprise and the arctic station, how many of the general population were privvy to what went on?

    alex20020712 wrote:
    That makes no sense. They could not discredit Archer, the doctor, and the entire crew. Even if they tried, a record of this story would exist in Picard's time.


    A General Order, for starters, similar to one imposed on any contact with or revealing any information about Talos IV. And Starfleet has never had a good track record of taking the side of Captains and crews that bucked orders for their own feelings of what was for the greater good.

    alex20020712 wrote:
    There is no plausible explanation or rationalization for it, if you really think about it. The writers were counting on you *not* thinking too much about it.


    I will say I have to agree to disagree with you in regards to how this event couldn't have been swept under the rug but will agree the writers were counting on it not being thought on too much.
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    alex20020712

    [12]Apr 19, 2006
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    lobomensch wrote:
    Starfleet might not operate that way but Section 31 does.


    ...and this happened OUTSIDE Section 31's control.

    You cannot put the worms back in the tin can.

    lobomensch wrote:
    You can, however, pass a cover story to what the mitigating circumstances were that led to the event, to downplay it's true origin and turn people's attention elsewhere.


    Picard, Data, and the Enterprise computer would have had a record of that cover story, then. They did not. Nor did any such story come up later.

    alex20020712 wrote:
    A General Order, for starters, similar to one imposed on any contact with or revealing any information about Talos IV.


    Contact with the Borg would not justify that kind of order.
    On the contrary, the Borg are a threat, not something that needs secrecy.

    Sorry, but there is no credible rationalization. All these theories are bound to self-destruct, because they are defending something that is indefensible.
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    beowulf579

    [13]Apr 20, 2006
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    Actually, it would be quite easy to have the knowledge disappear. Just think in our own history...how many ppl really know what our leaders were thinking back in 1806 or what choices they were making.
    A one time strange incident could easily be forgotten or negated to a little historical blurb.
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    alex20020712

    [14]Apr 21, 2006
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    beowulf579 wrote:
    Actually, it would be quite easy to have the knowledge disappear. Just think in our own history...how many ppl really know what our leaders were thinking back in 1806 or what choices they were making.
    A one time strange incident could easily be forgotten or negated to a little historical blurb.


    This is not our history. This is Starfleet in the 22nd century. Think about the Internet *today*, and how much more difficult it is to control information. Also, again: There is no believable excuse for anyone trying to "classify" this information in the first place.

    Even the most guarded "secrets" come out, eventually. You expect me to believe that after Picard's dealings with the Borg, this first encounter would still remain a secret, or "forgotten"? Why even bother to keep it a secret at that point?

    If you are going to tell me "maybe they did declassify it, but they did not mention this on screen," do not bother. We know this did not happen, because Picard did not know about the Borg going back in time to prevent First Contact, and he did not stay to clean up *all* Borg remains from Earth. Picard would not have left those drones knowingly.

    Also, it makes NO SENSE at all for someone like Archer to keep quiet, or simply forget about a threat like this. Picard had access to the most trivial information on the Enterprise computer, but not the detailed Borg analysis from Phlox? Not even a picture? This is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.

    We can keep going around and around, but the fact remains, if you want to consider this episode canon, you have to forget about TNG, First Contact, and so on. They cannot coexist. There is no way to "explain" these massive plot holes, any more than you can fit a square block into a [smaller] round hole. It simply does not fit, not matter how hard you try.
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    beowulf579

    [15]Apr 21, 2006
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    Unless...the beginnings of Section 31 started with First Contact. As shown, Cochrane may have attacked the Vulcans when they landed. It is highly probable that some of the humans present did not like the ideas of aliens amoung us to begin with. Proto-Section 31 could have kept the info of the Borg sectretive or messed it up.
    Just look at T'pol, she commented that Cochrane was a well known drunk. Granted..he was, but it kept a major *MAJOR* thing like the Borg from being taken seriously.

    And think on this....exactly how many ppl actual had contact with the Borg and lived to tell about it by the end of this ep..maybe 10 onscreen.

    Also...as far as the show ..well shows, no Borg tech was recovered to show otherwise. By the end of it all, all their was is the reports of 10 starfleet crewmembers about some sort of zombie-like aliens.
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    alex20020712

    [16]Apr 21, 2006
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    beowulf579 wrote:
    Unless...the beginnings of Section 31 started with First Contact. As shown, Cochrane may have attacked the Vulcans when they landed.


    What are you talking about?

    beowulf579 wrote:
    It is highly probable that some of the humans present did not like the ideas of aliens amoung us to begin with. Proto-Section 31 could have kept the info of the Borg sectretive or messed it up.


    No.

    beowulf579 wrote:
    Just look at T'pol, she commented that Cochrane was a well known drunk. Granted..he was, but it kept a major *MAJOR* thing like the Borg from being taken seriously.


    Taken seriously or not, those stories remain. History is full of trivial anecdotes. In fact, the more absurd the story, the more likely it will last. Yet, no such story exists in Picard's time. Why? Because Cochrane NEVER told that story. This entire episode was a stupid retcon.

    beowulf579 wrote:
    And think on this....exactly how many ppl actual had contact with the Borg and lived to tell about it by the end of this ep..maybe 10 onscreen.


    That is more than enough people to create a historical record, and certainly the *captain* and the *doctor* on Starfleet's flagship would make a thorough report.

    beowulf579 wrote:
    Also...as far as the show ..well shows, no Borg tech was recovered to show otherwise. By the end of it all, all their was is the reports of 10 starfleet crewmembers about some sort of zombie-like aliens.


    Nonsense. Phlox studied them in enough detail to figure out how to slow down or prevent assimilation. The more one thinks about this episode, the more STUPID it becomes.
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    beowulf579

    [17]Apr 21, 2006
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    Ok...then how about this. In the Next Generation we are introduced to Lt. Cmdr. Elizabeth Shelby. She is considered the Borg expert. Expert?? How could that be. Just about any of the bridge crew has just as much expierence as she could have. Heck, they at least encountered the Borg. All Shelby has is their accounts and records to go on.

    So, being the expert in the Borg that she is. Perhaps she got some extra info on them from somewhere.

    Also, in regards to Data not knowing the Borg from any historical info. He isn't perfect, and besides...he would be researching for anything in extra-federation space. He probally didn't access ALL info available. And remember, Data always feels alone. Alone!! Based on the logic here, he should know of all the android/machine based lifeforms that Kirk and company encountered. But for some reason he doesn't...plot hole?? You be the judge.
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    SRP76

    [18]Apr 22, 2006
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    alex20020712 wrote:
    Nonsense. Phlox studied them in enough detail to figure out how to slow down or prevent assimilation. The more one thinks about this episode, the more STUPID it becomes.


    That is absolutely true! A MAJOR sticking point: how could Phlox, with his comparitively stone-age technology and medical science, "slow down", and eventually stop, assimilation, when such people as Beverly Crusher and Voyager's "Doc" could NOT?! That's a huge load of crap.

    And as far as Data not being perfect: he's REAL close. "I remember every fact I am exposed to", is what he told McCoy. If had ever seen ANYTHING about the Borg, he WOULD remember it.

    As far as not knowing all the lifeforms Kirk and his boys encountered: yes, he does. Kirk's crew simply NEVER ran into the Borg. And if the Enterprise writers hadn't decided to disregard the established Trek timeline, Archer and HIS crew wouldn't have run into the Borg, either.
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    LithiumAngel420

    [19]Apr 22, 2006
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    Boy, with you guys here I don't even have to post my opposing comments. Someone always seems to take care of that for me... lol.  Carry on.
    Edited on 04/22/2006 12:33am
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    beowulf579

    [20]Apr 22, 2006
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    SRP76 wrote:
    alex20020712 wrote:
    Nonsense. Phlox studied them in enough detail to figure out how to slow down or prevent assimilation. The more one thinks about this episode, the more STUPID it becomes.


    That is absolutely true! A MAJOR sticking point: how could Phlox, with his comparitively stone-age technology and medical science, "slow down", and eventually stop, assimilation, when such people as Beverly Crusher and Voyager's "Doc" could NOT?! That's a huge load of crap.

    And as far as Data not being perfect: he's REAL close. "I remember every fact I am exposed to", is what he told McCoy. If had ever seen ANYTHING about the Borg, he WOULD remember it.

    As far as not knowing all the lifeforms Kirk and his boys encountered: yes, he does. Kirk's crew simply NEVER ran into the Borg. And if the Enterprise writers hadn't decided to disregard the established Trek timeline, Archer and HIS crew wouldn't have run into the Borg, either.


    I agree with the whole Phlox angle. That was stupid.

    But...on the Data stuff I can't.
    "What Are Little Girls Made Of?"
    Androids a plenty, though I think they are pretty much all gone by the end of this ep
    "I, Mudd"
    Again...a whole culture of androids.

    This would show that Data is indeed either able to forget, or he just never saw this info before. Now, deep down I think the odds of Data researching info on androids about 100 years ago higher than what happened on the First Enterprise two centuries ago.
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